Author Topic: PC029: Dead Languages  (Read 54379 times)

ryos

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Reply #25 on: October 20, 2008, 08:48:11 AM
I have little to add to the discussion. I neither liked nor disliked the story; it was a meh for me.

Why am I here? Because I, too, am a fan of fantasy who has no particular love for Buffy. Just thought Rachel might want to know she has company.



cuddlebug

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Reply #26 on: October 20, 2008, 09:25:38 AM
I loved the reading of this story, and the story itself was a fun romp.  When Lilian wails that she does not want to be known as the woman on the internet with the arm flab, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing.  Arm flab heroines of the internet unite!

....

2) I enjoyed it when Christian fell in love with her, but boy was I disappointed when I realized that he fell in love with her because he was victim of a spell.  I wanted him to fall in love with her because she kicked ass, could recite poetry in different languages, had a razor sharp wit and a sense of humor and because she looked damn fine in a bustier.  Skinny guys fall for bright, funny, well endowed fat chicks all the time.  I would not have minded the spell bringing them together if the reason was that Lilian had become more confident, or just was a stronger person because of the spell.  But to have Christian love Lilian mainly because the spell made him do so... well, that cheapened it for me. 

I totally agree with you there, HMM, I was really disappointed as well, ... but the sad part was that I found myself doubting him long before the reason for his change of heart was revealed. I had a really hard time trying to suppress the temptation to dismiss Christian's "feelings" as the author's attempt at appealing to us 'arm flab chicks'. I tried to come up with some kind of explanation of how he could possibly fall for HER, thinking it could not be real and 'it is just a story, that doesn't happen in real life' (haha, what would we do without fantasy?). On one hand I like stories that make me challenge my own preconceptions of the world and realize how I am myself using certain assumptions I otherwise dismiss as superficial when I am aware of them. On the other hand it makes me sad ... (to realize my own preconceptions of the world etc etc.)

Anyway, still a good story and very entertaining. I for one did not mind the editing problems. They were slightly annoying, but not so much so they could interfere with my enjoyment of the story. But I have to say without the excellent reading I would not have enjoyed it as much, though I was picturing someone slightly older than 28, I have to admit. Yeah, yeah, I know, preconceptions.



MacArthurBug

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Reply #27 on: October 20, 2008, 02:44:42 PM
Odd. Interesting, not well enough edited, the flaws distracted me from the reading. The story itself was.. OK.

On an aside: Not liking buffy I kinda get. IT took me a LONG time to get into J.W. stuff. At first (and second and third) blush I could not get into BTVS, or Angel, or FF - I was a freak amoung my buddies. I finally gave in, sat down and forced myself to watch my friends favorite scenes. Unlike Rachel, I found it just to my tastes. Suddenly I "got" it.  And "it" was good.

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Halogen

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Reply #28 on: October 20, 2008, 03:15:44 PM
I loved it!  Excellent reading by the narrator!  She delivered the dry sarcastic attitude of the vampire slayer perfectly!  I was really disappointed when it was over. 



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #29 on: October 20, 2008, 04:01:55 PM
I really enjoyed this story.  It had me laughing out loud in several places.  Okay, that's not a huge feat - I laugh reasonably easily - but, still.  It was a lot of fun.

<Spoiler>
I, like many commenters, also liked the fact that the author chose not to have any of the characters figure out how to reverse the magic.  (Though I found myself coming up with my own solutions while listening.)  I don't think, given the circumstances, and assuming a certain level of internal consistency to the ficton, that a solution would have been difficult, but it wouldn't have added to the story either, so I appreciated the author leaving it out.
</Spoiler>

Hobson's reading certainly had a lot to do with how much I enjoyed this story.  When I heard Rachel name her as the reader, I surprised myself a little by saying, "Oh, good!" or "Awesome!" or some such.  I hadn't realized just how much I've come to enjoy her reading.  And here, she didn't disappoint.

I was one of the ones who got the first version of the file, and I thought she even did the verbal typos well. The one with the finger-snap was pure Theatre of the Mind - I could picture it!

(I'm keeping this copy even after I download the 'good' version, in case, like a coin with a minted flaw, it becomes a valuable collectors' item!  ;) )

(Oh, and Rachel, in case no one else mentioned it: I use Juice for the feed and while it didn't automatically recognize that there was a new file, it'll be easy enough to go to the subscription tab and click 'Download' for the file to get it again.)

My one complaint is with the timing of Rachel's remarks.  I would really, really, really have rathered them be in an afterword rather than the introduction.  Don't get me wrong: I enjoyed what she said - I like getting to know the Escape Artists hosts! - but for me, it (and the rating on the blog) gave away too much of what was coming.

The author revealed plot points with (presumably) specific, chosen timing and I found myself anticipating them more than being surprised by them, not because of anything that was telegraphed in the story, but because of revelations made in the introduction and rating.

The rating I could have avoided; not so the intro.

I felt the same way about  "Cup and Table" back in August.  Without the introduction, I'd have had no idea, until it was revealed by the author, what the story was about.  (This may say more about my own cluelessness than about the author's skill.)  I would have had the (presumably intended) "Ahh!" moment.  I felt a little cheated that I didn't.

I wouldn't have changed a word of that introduction either - I just would rather she'd provided all that interesting, related information after the story, rather than before.

Maybe I'm just more spoiler-phobic than average, as no one else seems to have the same concern.  (Though I have yet to check the comments from "Cup and Table".)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 04:05:15 PM by Wilson Fowlie »

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eytanz

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Reply #30 on: October 20, 2008, 06:53:34 PM
I enjoyed this story, but I felt it could have used more editing - its pacing was off; not so much slow as progressing in fits and starts. Long, slow, buildup, then a very quick reveal of the spell's effects, then slow again, then somewhat faster again for the reveal of Christian's new feelings, then a really dragged out ending.

All the components for a fun story were here, and to a large extent they worked, but it would have been a much better story if it was, oh, 5-10 minutes shorter.



Listener

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Reply #31 on: October 20, 2008, 08:42:17 PM
I want to thank everyone who's said nice things about my reading, and send out my personal apology for the audio errors! This was the first piece I ever recorded for Podcastle (though "Hallah Iron Thighs" and my intro for "Tanuki Kettle" happened to come out first) and I ... uh ... kinda didn't know how to use Sound Studio very well. I also had a crappy mike, which I've since replaced. And the dog ate my homework.  ;D

Well, I would say you nailed the main character's voice pretty spot-on.

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deflective

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Reply #32 on: October 20, 2008, 09:53:35 PM
I would posit that it only affected what people THOUGHT they were, not what actually happened.

an interesting attempt but it doesn't work. Lillian didn't identify with her costume, she felt silly. the scroll was pretty precise: what appears to be true becomes true. woman can use makeup and clothing to feel good not just look good. in fact that's usually the goal when out at night, someone who feels sexy is much more likely to be sexy.

I'm not sure it had to do directly with belief, so much as with pretending - women with makeup aren't (usually) pretending to be someone else, and bras aren't about pretending anymore than, say, t-shirts are.
...
Lillian was pretending to be a buffy-type vampire slayer, someone who tried to lead a normal life while also possessing superpowers. So, her normal-life aspects remained.

this sounds better but still: a padded, underwire bra is all about pretending. makeup usually is too (take twenty years off / put five years on).

Lillian was pretending to be a particular hunter with her own personality.


on a tangent, if all costumes suddenly became real there could be an entertaining scene where the ranks of the police, nurses and teachers are suddenly swollen by young woman in unconventional uniforms. this would leave club stages briefly empty until the pole-dancing exercise classes let out and new woman show up, wearing less makeup but moving more provocatively than ever before.

yeah, that's the kind of thing i think of. glad to fill the stereotype.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 09:55:18 PM by deflective »



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Reply #33 on: October 20, 2008, 11:23:16 PM
Quote
this sounds better but still: a padded, underwire bra is all about pretending. makeup usually is too (take twenty years off / put five years on).

Not in my experience, it's not.  Underwire is all about the support.  Not infrequently, bras that don't have underwire will use padding instead for the same purpose--though that's inadequate for some of us.  Underwire doesn't actually make your breasts look any bigger than they are--believe me, I have no need to pretend I've got anything, and I always, always wear underwire, because otherwise, the structural support just isn't there.

So, while some padded bras are all about giving you the next letter, not even remotely all of them are, and underwires aren't about that at all.

[...]

I kinda wish this was the last election cycle, because then I could throw in "You forgot Chain-mail" and not sound dated.

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wintermute

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Reply #34 on: October 21, 2008, 01:13:47 AM
people are putting way too much stock into Christian's claim that the spell made him fall in love. this is a guy who idolized the slayer character to a point where he's sinking money into creating a movie, then he gets to meet a real live one. how hard is it to mistake your own infatuation & admiration for love? just how different is it from love? by claiming it's the spell he creates a space where it's safe to lay out his feelings without fully exposing himself.

It's a college project. So far as I can tell, the total cost of the movie is Lillian's $500 plus the cost of film stock. And there's nothing to imply that he'd even thought about vampire slayers before he started this. It might as well have been about crossing guards in rural Nebraska, and he'd have fallen in love with the central character.

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deflective

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Reply #35 on: October 21, 2008, 02:01:06 AM
what are you saying about the cost of the film? spending a thousand bucks means a lot in college.

your experience with college art projects may be different but the producers/directors of vamp flicks always seem like big vampire geeks. especially once you get into slayer / hunter discussions.



Heradel

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Reply #36 on: October 21, 2008, 02:02:50 AM
The setting seems modern, unless I missed a mention of film canisters I'm guessing they're shooting to SD cards or HD, maybe DV tapes.

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Heradel

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Reply #37 on: October 21, 2008, 06:13:49 AM
The women's clothing discussion has been moved to here: http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=2036.0

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Void Munashii

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Reply #38 on: October 21, 2008, 11:46:16 AM
  Despite what I felt was kind of a rocky start, I really enjoyed this story. Once the story found its groove it really started to work. The read was wonderful (a few editing issues did not ruin the story for me), and captured the main character perfectly

  I guess it's a good thing there was not an anime convention going on, or there would have been a lot more "ninjas" running around.

  Hmmm, do you think that the spell would make people's costume props work too? would all the people cosplaying as Light suddenly have working Death Notes? I cannot think the role-players and ninjas had "real" (not cheap decorative or plastic) weapons lying around when the spell took effect.

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Rain

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Reply #39 on: October 21, 2008, 01:42:48 PM
Am i really the only one who though Lilian was a total Bitch throughout the story? She was pretty mean to everyone in the story, i realise it was a defense mechanism but after every other character was a normal friendly person i got a little sick of that attitude, especially with the boyfriend to which she was pretty cruel.
Otherwise a good story
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 01:46:01 PM by Rain »



Rain

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Reply #40 on: October 21, 2008, 01:45:25 PM

if you want to understand Whedon fandom without putting in a full seven seasons i would suggest watching the top five episodes (ideally with a fan to fill in background) rather than slogging through the first season. the first season is generally considered weak. at a minimum, everyone should see the musical episode. =)

I completely agree, i am a huge Buffy fan, but season one is pretty weak, certainly not enough to get why people like me praise it to the skies



Hatton

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Reply #41 on: October 21, 2008, 03:15:44 PM
Ya' know, I *almost* stopped listening to this story when I was at the half-way point and asking myself, "okay, so it's a story about a woman playing a vampire hunter and bitching about her weight and her life."  I'm glad I hung on because the story did pick up, but in terms of momentum, it took way too long to get into the fantasy for me.

As others have mentioned, the audio-blips were annoying but not distracting.  I disliked the main character (why aren't I using the word heroine?) in the beginning but by the end I'm not sure if I liked her or just felt sorry for her.


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Reply #42 on: October 21, 2008, 05:41:50 PM
I enjoyed this one, to be sure. Lots of fun and M.K. Hobson's reading completely sold it for me. 


Ragtime

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Reply #43 on: October 21, 2008, 05:56:53 PM
2) I enjoyed it when Christian fell in love with her, but boy was I disappointed when I realized that he fell in love with her because he was victim of a spell.  ... But to have Christian love Lilian mainly because the spell made him do so... well, that cheapened it for me. 

This whole topic is interesting to me and is actually one that kind of raises my hackles/makes my skin crawl - magically altering someone's perception of the world or of someone else and causing them to fall in love or become attracted to someone?  Creepy as HELL.

For those who have not (and I assume that is most of you) read the "Disney Fairies" books, I really really recommend them (for your daughters!  no, really, they're great!) if, for nothing else, getting right exactly what this story gets wrong.  In "Fairy Haven and the Quest for the Wand" by Gail Carson Levine (more famous for 'Ella Enchanted'), the gang gets a magic wand, and despite being told not to make wishes, they all do.  One male fairy, who has been in unrequited love with Tinkerbell throughout the series, wishes that she will fall in love with him.

The result makes both he and Tinkerbell miserable (as it should), and by the end he learns the error of his ways.  That a kid's book gets perfectly right something that this story gets very wrong speaks to both works, I think.



eytanz

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Reply #44 on: October 21, 2008, 06:12:46 PM
One male fairy, who has been in unrequited love with Tinkerbell throughout the series, wishes that she will fall in love with him.

The result makes both he and Tinkerbell miserable (as it should), and by the end he learns the error of his ways.  That a kid's book gets perfectly right something that this story gets very wrong speaks to both works, I think.

Ah, but this raises an interesting question. I agree that the concept of someone deliberately altering someone else's perception of the world to make them fall in love with them is disturbing. Love, I think we all agree, should not be coerced, neither by force or by magic.

But that is not what happens in this story. The main character accidentally causes someone else to fall in love with her, as a result of a more widely-reaching spell (which was also accidental, though that's less material to the point). She never intended it. Indeed, she is resistant to his overtures for a while.

So, this isn't really a story about using magic to make someone love you. It's a story about making an impact in the world, which causes someone's perception of you to change. I really don't think that this is the same thing.



Ragtime

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Reply #45 on: October 21, 2008, 06:23:28 PM
So, this isn't really a story about using magic to make someone love you. It's a story about making an impact in the world, which causes someone's perception of you to change. I really don't think that this is the same thing.

I don't think so.  When Terence (that was the boy fairy's name!) made Tinkerbell fall in love with him, it only took him a few pages to start thinking "This is a disaster!  This is supposed to be my dream come true, but it's actually a nightmare!"  Soon, he can barely stand being with her, because he is so ashamed.  And that coming from someone who actually loved Tinkerbell all along.  That struck me as the "right" way to describe the situation.

In this case, Lilian started out not-at-all attracted to Christian, and then, when he starts expressing his love for her, she slowly (and inconsistently) becomes more open to hanging out with him, and maybe actually having a relationship.  The point is not who "caused" it, but whether someone being forced (by any means) to love you against his own will would increase or decrease your desire to be with him/her. 

A better route, I think, is to start her out thinking, "Hey, he's kind of cute," and then getting repelled by his undesired love.  The way this story is written, though, it is the equivalent of "You know, I never really found you that appealing before you developed that personality disorder . . ."  Which is ass-backwards.



eytanz

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Reply #46 on: October 21, 2008, 06:47:27 PM

A better route, I think, is to start her out thinking, "Hey, he's kind of cute," and then getting repelled by his undesired love.  This way, it is the equivalent of "You know, I never really found you that appealing before you developed that personality disorder . . ."  Which is ass-backwards.


I see your point, but I still don't accept the reasoning. Christian fell in love with her due to a force outside his control, but that's not the same thing as "against his will". Imagine, in the real world, that someone has a minor stroke that results in a personality change. Would you want that person to live the rest of their life alone, since, before the stroke, he would not be attracted to the same women as after the stroke? If he ends up head over heels with a woman that just a year before he would have hated, does that mean she should reject him?

I'm not disputing that something bad happened to Christian in this story. But the story makes it clear that this change is permanent. Does Christian have to keep on living a life he had once wanted for himself, if now he wants something else?



Ragtime

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Reply #47 on: October 21, 2008, 07:58:46 PM
Would you want that person to live the rest of their life alone, since, before the stroke, he would not be attracted to the same women as after the stroke?  If he ends up head over heels with a woman that just a year before he would have hated, does that mean she should reject him?

You are looking at it from the point of "fairness" to the person under the spell.  From Christian's point of view.  But it takes two to make a relationship.  Your assumption is that "You have fallen in love with me" should somehow change how I feel about you.  But that's not how it works. 

Notice that, unlike in the case of a "minor stroke," Christian's personality has not changed.  Christian was characterized as an annoying twerp, and a pushy, bossy director with very few redeeming qualities.  Suddenly he is changed -- but he is NOT changed so that he is no longer an annoying twerp.  He is NOT changed so that he is no longer annoying or bossy.  This is NOT a case of Fred Flintstone being hit on the head with a bowling ball and suddenly becoming classy. The only difference in his personality is his feelings toward Lilian, who initially was not interested in him. 

And your assumption is that this ONE change should be enough to somehow change LILIAN'S opinion in a pro-Christian direction.  But you not entitled to have a woman change her opinion of you simply because you change your opinion of her.

Would the find that annoying girl who is currently indifferent to you more or less annoying if she is suddenly being annoying around you all the time while she tells you she had a stroke and now loves you?  You might think that her taste has improved, but if she is still annoying in exactly the same ways, then you will likely be no more interested in her -- and probably much less so because now her annoying-ness in on display
more often.



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Reply #48 on: October 21, 2008, 08:08:24 PM
Also, there seems like there was some sort of complete failure to edit the piece  -- lots of repeated lines and a "Take Two" thrown in there.

That was my problem.  A good story was cut off at the knees by no less than four falterings and restarts.  Skimming downthread it seems that a fixed version has been posted, so I'll get that one and replace my existing copy ... but as I've just finished listening to this one, I'm not likely to come back to it any time soon.

Seriously, those editing glitches practically destroyed the story for me.

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eytanz

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Reply #49 on: October 21, 2008, 08:11:05 PM
Notice that, unlike in the case of a "minor stroke," Christian's personality has not changed.  Christian was characterized as an annoying twerp, and a pushy, bossy director with very few redeeming qualities.  Suddenly he is changed -- but he is NOT changed so that he is no longer an annoying twerp.  He is NOT changed so that he is no longer annoying or bossy.  This is NOT a case of Fred Flintstone being hit on the head with a bowling ball and suddenly becoming classy. The only difference in his personality is his feelings toward Lilian, who initially was not interested in him. 

I'm getting confused as to what you are saying, now. The comparison with the fairy story was that there, person X loved person Y who didn't reciprocate, then person Y's feelings changed by magic, and person X found this nightmarish, presumably because Y no longer acted like the person he originally loved.

You were comparing this to this story, where person X initially dislikes person Y, then person Y loves X, and X decides its not so bad after all.

So what was it that the Disney story got "so right" that this story got "so wrong"? I originally thought you meant "if you force someone to love you you will regret it", and I pointed out that that doesn't apply. You seemed to agree with me, and then I thought the point was "someone forming a love for you that is inconsistent with their past inclinations is a nightmare", and I think that's just plain false.

Now you seem to be arguing that the problem is that person Y didn't really change enough. I actually agree with you here - while I don't find the ending creepy, I do find it somewhat sad. But I also find it realistic and internally consistent - Lilian had already admitted that she's willing to date people she dislikes just to avoid being alone. But if this is the case, what is it that the Disney story got right that this story got wrong? I agree with your latest post - but I'm not sure how it fits in with where we started.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 08:13:18 PM by eytanz »