Author Topic: EP180: Navy Brat  (Read 27635 times)

wintermute

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Reply #25 on: October 21, 2008, 12:29:44 PM
Aha! I knew there was something else bugging me!

Their destination was "the Alpha Centauri cluster". Let us assume that they meant triple star system of Alpha Centauri A, B and C, which is our next-door neighbour, at a little over 4 light years away. They left Earth 400 years ago, giving a minimum speed of 1% of the speed of light, possibly as high as 10% of the speed of light, if they arrived 350 years ago (I don't remember, but that's the number people are throwing around). These speeds are high but not unreasonable, so I'm inclined to believe that they are at the closest star to Sol.

So where did the other aliens they'd encountered come from? Neptune is four light-hours out, and would have been passed very soon after take-off, and after that, you just have a handful of dirty snowballs, only a few of which are large enough to be noticeable. Is life so common that, even in the Oort Cloud we can find societies advanced enough (or perhaps individuals powerful enough) to be worth defending against?

Also, had they really been fighting Mutts for 350 years (assuming that's when they arrived in orbit) without noticing that their ships didn't seem to be capable of interstellar travel? Didn't anyone think it was odd that they controlled such a huge swathe of space, some 30 or 40 light years across? Didn't any ever try and reverse engineer the Mutt's FTL drives?

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Listener

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Reply #26 on: October 21, 2008, 12:31:07 PM
So, we're at war with an alien race. I know! Let's go colonize their worlds! And instead of an invading force, we'll send a generation ship full of colonists. Brilliant!

Then, when they get there, it turns out their enemies had posted a "trespassers will be shot" sign in that region of space and, true to form, started shooting. But! They would fail to destroy the vigilant colonists, despite the fact that the ship had been parked in orbit for 300 years, cut off from reinforcements and resupply, while the Mutts had the resources of an entire world at their disposal.

I don't think we were at war with an alien race when the generation ships left. Did I miss that part?

I think the reason the Mutts were so mad is because this ship has been hanging out in orbit for 350 years, not doing anything. The Mutts probably said "o hai, you can haz hailing freq? o? u do not want? then i zaps u with mah lazors!"

I figure the Mutts, once the people who wanted to transition explained the whole thing, said "our bad, u can haz dis continent. but no blowing r stuf up pleez!"

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stePH

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Reply #27 on: October 21, 2008, 01:10:17 PM
I think the reason the Mutts were so mad is because this ship has been hanging out in orbit for 350 years, not doing anything. The Mutts probably said "o hai, you can haz hailing freq? o? u do not want? then i zaps u with mah lazors!"

I figure the Mutts, once the people who wanted to transition explained the whole thing, said "our bad, u can haz dis continent. but no blowing r stuf up pleez!"

 :D FTW!

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Zathras

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Reply #28 on: October 21, 2008, 02:28:05 PM
This will probably need to split off...

What is young adult fiction, anyway?  I think it should be just as well written, but with a different focus. 

I think this story fits more in the gap between children and young adult.  (Minus the hazing scene)

Heinlein's Y/A works are a prime example of what I think Y/A is. 

From wikipedia:

"The novels that Heinlein wrote for a young audience are commonly referred to as "the Heinlein juveniles", and they feature a mixture of adolescent and adult themes. Many of the issues that he takes on in these books have to do with the kinds of problems that adolescents experience. His protagonists are usually very intelligent teenagers who have to make their way in the adult society they see around them. On the surface, they are simple tales of adventure, achievement, and dealing with stupid teachers and jealous peers. However, Heinlein was a vocal proponent of the notion that juvenile readers were far more sophisticated and able to handle complex or difficult themes than most people realized. Thus even his juvenile stories often had a maturity to them that made them readable for adults. Red Planet, for example, portrays some very subversive themes, including a revolution in which young students are involved; his editor demanded substantial changes in this book's discussion of topics such as the use of weapons by children and the misidentified gender of the Martian character. Heinlein was always aware of the editorial limitations put in place by the editors of his novels and stories, and while he observed those restrictions on the surface, was often successful in introducing ideas not often seen in other authors' juvenile SF."



Anarkey

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Reply #29 on: October 21, 2008, 03:16:46 PM
This will probably need to split off...

What is young adult fiction, anyway?  I think it should be just as well written, but with a different focus. 

YA is a designation given to fiction intended for 12-18 year-olds.  Books such as LeGuin's Earthsea trilogy, the Harry Potter books or The Golden Compass in the speculative genre, frex, or Catcher in the Rye, Go Ask Alice, and A Separate Peace in the vanilla lit world.  Thematically, there's lots of overlap between YA and bildungsroman, though not all bildungsroman are YA, of course.  YA books usually have teen protagonists, and generally deal with teen issues such as sexual maturation, forming an identity, and loss of innocence. 

Other examples: Larbalestier's Magic Or Madness, Westerfield's Peeps, Lowry's The Giver, the elsewhere discussed Twilight series.  I read barrels of YA, and generally, have very little respect for YA that lacks subtlety and nuance, or talks down to its intended audience.

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ryos

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Reply #30 on: October 21, 2008, 07:22:46 PM
So, we're at war with an alien race. I know! Let's go colonize their worlds! And instead of an invading force, we'll send a generation ship full of colonists. Brilliant!

Then, when they get there, it turns out their enemies had posted a "trespassers will be shot" sign in that region of space and, true to form, started shooting. But! They would fail to destroy the vigilant colonists, despite the fact that the ship had been parked in orbit for 300 years, cut off from reinforcements and resupply, while the Mutts had the resources of an entire world at their disposal.

I don't think we were at war with an alien race when the generation ships left. Did I miss that part?

I think the reason the Mutts were so mad is because this ship has been hanging out in orbit for 350 years, not doing anything. The Mutts probably said "o hai, you can haz hailing freq? o? u do not want? then i zaps u with mah lazors!"

I figure the Mutts, once the people who wanted to transition explained the whole thing, said "our bad, u can haz dis continent. but no blowing r stuf up pleez!"

Heh. "U brotz us teh catz, u in big trubbl nao!"

Ok, I just re-listened to the beginning, and it turns out you're right and I fail at listening comprehension. It seems likely the Mutts arrived recently to the planet, finding a silent and mysterious hulking Human generation ship in orbit. I can imagine their first forays were more exploratory than offensive, but when they were repulsed by military force, they decided the ship was a threat that needed to be eliminated.

That would explain why the reconciliation was so easy and the Mutts were so willing to share. It doesn't explain the rest of the flaws, but at least it's not quite as idiotic as I once thought.

On a tangent, I find that, if there's some important piece of exposition near the beginning of an audio fiction podcast, I often miss it or get it wrong. I must still be recalibrating the ol' sensor banks to work in this strange new world.



wintermute

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Reply #31 on: October 21, 2008, 07:41:37 PM
Ok, I just re-listened to the beginning, and it turns out you're right and I fail at listening comprehension. It seems likely the Mutts arrived recently to the planet, finding a silent and mysterious hulking Human generation ship in orbit. I can imagine their first forays were more exploratory than offensive, but when they were repulsed by military force, they decided the ship was a threat that needed to be eliminated.
That sounds right. I think I'd prefer it if they were native to the system, but this way answers more questions.

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Cerebrilith

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Reply #32 on: October 21, 2008, 11:04:04 PM
I agree that the plot had holes and would likely have been better if it was longer and better fleshed out, despite all that I enjoyed this one.  It was harmless and fun.



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Reply #33 on: October 22, 2008, 12:50:07 AM
My biggest gripe about it has nothing to do with the story really. Having recently read Ender's Game, I couldn't help but see Ender bouncing around the battle room in the opening scene.

My immediate reaction, too. Complete with a precocious protagonist better at the game than the seniors, who must belittle and humiliate the upstart. Mutts seemed similar to the Buggers. They turned out to be enemies but just first contact issues coupled mutual paranoia?

I did like the echoes of Starship Troopers - the protagonist being more Navy than the Navy itself.

Overall, however, it wasn't so bad. I was disappointed with the sudden appearance of the video, even more than the unencrypted terminal of the Admiral which was inside a "seal" but obviously not locked door. Come to think of it, Ender hacked into the tablet PCs in that novel, too. Still okay.



Nobilis

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Reply #34 on: October 22, 2008, 04:50:25 AM
I really didn't like how easily the secrets came.  It stank of Deus ex Machina.  Realistically, wouldn't the Officers have gone over it with a fine-toothed comb before they made it accessible to the public, much less a disgraced ex-cadet?

Snapped my suspenders.  I give it a raspberry out of ten.



wintermute

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Reply #35 on: October 22, 2008, 11:48:23 AM
Realistically, wouldn't the Officers have gone over it with a fine-toothed comb before they made it accessible to the public, much less a disgraced ex-cadet?
Had the officers had any say in the matter, I'm sure you're right.

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Zathras

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Reply #36 on: October 22, 2008, 01:02:20 PM
I really didn't like how easily the secrets came.  It stank of Deus ex Machina.  Realistically, wouldn't the Officers have gone over it with a fine-toothed comb before they made it accessible to the public, much less a disgraced ex-cadet?

Snapped my suspenders.  I give it a raspberry out of ten.

Maybe it was time locked?




DKT

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Reply #37 on: October 22, 2008, 04:02:05 PM
Why were the officers let completely off the hook for murdering their "beloved" Admiral? I mean I'm assuming that part of the tale wasn't made "public" but why not?

It was a fun story, I did like it, but man, plot holes

The Admiral died 350 years ago.


Oh. I completely missed that somewhere along the way. Heh.

Boy, you weren't the only one.  I completely missed that.

I did also think of Ender's Game during the opening. 


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Reply #38 on: October 22, 2008, 04:09:19 PM
This will probably need to split off...

What is young adult fiction, anyway?  I think it should be just as well written, but with a different focus. 

I think this story fits more in the gap between children and young adult.  (Minus the hazing scene)

It's a very hard genre to pin down in my opinion.  It can be as incredibly dark and mature as adult fiction (see Holly Black's excellent Valiant).  Honestly, I think "Arties Aren't Stupid" was great YA.  I think a lot of times it reflects coming of age themes, or at least self-realization.  But then again, maybe "self-realization" is too broad -- much adult fiction centers around it. 

Sometimes I think anything that revolves around a young protagonist is considered YA.


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Reply #39 on: October 22, 2008, 04:18:08 PM
At first I started out not liking this story at all... it was too "The Secret Life of an American Teenager" and didn't seem like it was going anywhere.  In the end I found that it ended up being an Okay piece, if slightly too simplified.   

I must admit I was quite surprised that Kay Kenyon wrote this, having read the first book of her Entire and Rose Trilogy... it just didnt seem like her style at all..




eytanz

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Reply #40 on: October 22, 2008, 07:36:25 PM
If we started complaining that there are not enough giant mutant insect stories, and not enough stories in blank verse, would Steve's response to the first giant mutant insect story written in blank verse be a "yes", regardless of the quality of the story?

There is good military SF, and there is good YA SF. This story was neither. Others before me have already explained why, so I won't belabor the point, but I would like to think that quality should be the first criteria, not whether a story ticks off some boxes on a list.

Edit: Ok, I think I was a mite cranky when I wrote the above - obviously, Steve's intro doesn't mean that he didn't take quality into account. But that doesn't mean I like the story...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 07:42:11 PM by eytanz »



Zathras

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Reply #41 on: October 24, 2008, 04:56:06 AM
So, I listened to this one again.

I was in the Army.  I can guarantee you that no officer is going to call a cadet forward in the middle of a change of command ceremony.  He's gonna have their hide after the ceremony is over.

What is the average life span of the colonists?  I am assuming around 100 years, but it's never brought up.  I'm guessing that none of the mutinous officers were still alive.

How is it possible that the ship was parked in orbit for 350 years? 

As many have already pointed out, there are plot holes big enough to drive my truck through.  The first time I listened to this, I tried to be as open as possible.  I didn't like it, but thought that it might have just been a matter of taste.  The more I think about it, the more I believe that it is a good story, but it needs a little more meat on its bones.



contra

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Reply #42 on: October 24, 2008, 11:00:56 AM
I liked this story.

As for the plot holes people are seeing; we don't know anything about how the ship works, so don't know if there is a pilot, it could just be on an auto course as far as everyone knows.  To maintain an orbit there has to be something in control; a computer could easily do that; as well as not need to be updated en route.  The computer will tell you if there is anything wrong... OK, the journey time changing from 50 to hundreds of years is a bit of a hole, and the resources needed for a 50 year trip, and a 400+ one are different by a wide margin, and theres then a question of what everyone is doing on the ship if noone looks outside of pilots it... or there are flaws in it...
but I think they work.



I think the higher ups may have already known about the conspiracy, however anyone else was just playing along with the crowd.  For getting new people into the conspriacy after it happened, it would become a right of passage, and would make new officers once they get to a set level feel like they are above everyone, and understand more than they do.  At that point they would be brainwashed enough to be killing to go with anything, including a religion to take everyone over once it got big enough....
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Reply #43 on: October 24, 2008, 05:16:34 PM
Ok, there's good and there's bad.

The Good: it was very readable. I identified a bit with the protagonist. And it seems very reasonable that people who supposedly reject religion turn their rejection into a religion itself. It's kind of like how it's hard to find a real Honest-To-God atheist (pun intended), and their POV is generally not passed on to their children, should there be any.

The Bad: Plot holes you can drive a massive hulking generation ship through. What kind of idiots must the Powers That Be that run the ship be? They leave the ship in orbit and hope nobody looks out the window. They leave the Admirals quarters unlocked and unguarded, with a cool recording waiting for anyone who stumbles in. And What kind of Morons are the passengers, for never violating these things in 300 Years.

Still, it was kind of fun to listen to.



contra

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Reply #44 on: October 24, 2008, 06:30:06 PM
The ship may not have any windows. 
The Battlestar Galactica has almost none IIRC; due to its armour.

Not using shields for your main defence means you rely on physical armour on your ship... this means no windows in a spaceship...

Instead they have they projections... that lie to them...

As for noone voilating the quarters for 300 years... that does seem silly... but it could happen if people held it in such high respect as they seemed like they did.  And they may have been previous; they were just dealt with, or wanted to fit in. 
For all we know there was a truth subculture based on rumour, and that is why it was accepted so quickly after the truth was revealed... But very few went in previously due to fear...

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wintermute

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Reply #45 on: October 24, 2008, 06:47:55 PM
The ship may not have any windows. 
The Battlestar Galactica has almost none IIRC; due to its armour.

Not using shields for your main defence means you rely on physical armour on your ship... this means no windows in a spaceship...

Instead they have they projections... that lie to them...
True, it's reasonable to assume no windows. Hoerver, anyone who's working on propulsion or navigation, or who needs to spacewalk to repair combat damage, or who points a gun at a Mutt ship, ir any of a dozen other groups of people is going to see what's really out there. I have a hard time believing that this is such a tiny, easily controlled number of people that the secret can be held for more than about a week, before someone gets drunk and tells their husband the big secret...

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Reply #46 on: October 25, 2008, 03:12:00 AM
Liked it but the whole story could of been told in about three minutes with about as much character development and background info.  It was a good thing to listen to while cleaning the house though.



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Reply #47 on: October 25, 2008, 11:57:26 AM
Nope. Sorry. This didn't get me much. I have to give it a solid meh for an interseting premise but not fleshed out- seemed like a first draft for some reason.



Loz

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Reply #48 on: October 27, 2008, 08:13:47 PM
A bad story badly read, was Dani Cutler reading this at a gallop because she had somewhere else to be?



Roney

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Reply #49 on: October 27, 2008, 09:05:32 PM
Young Adult Military Science Fiction?  (Or YAMilSF, as it would appear to be.)  "No" would be my first, second and third answer.  Still, variety is part of the fun of the podcast and I tried to get into a frame of mind to enjoy it.  Epic fail on my part.