Split from PC029: Bras and makeup and making oneself appear not as one is

[Listener]

this story had a few things worth commenting about but thomasowenm brought up a big one (and now Kaa). speculative fiction authors tend to to introduce huge, world changing events without thinking through the consequences. this isn't always a big deal but it is distracting. where were the santas in the story? what happened to women as they realized that their makeup wasn't coming off and their underwire bra had disappeared, leaving them larger and unnaturally perky? why did the vampire take the personality of his character but the vampire hunter remain herself? did every room using mirrors to create an illusion of space suddenly get larger?

I would posit that it only affected what people THOUGHT they were, not what actually happened. Santas who are really good at their jobs have to truly take on the characters. Cosplayers, the same. I think the author hit it when Christian explained why he had fallen in love with Lillian -- the technique was to love your work, and every part of it, so he believed he loved Lillian.

My thoughts:

* makeup/bras -- the women knew they were wearing these things to make themselves look better, but didn't believe that that was who they WERE.
* vampire -- cf the Christian explanation just above.
* mirrors -- the mirrors and rooms are not conscious objects.

I see where you're coming from, but the story logic made sense to me when I thought about it based upon how it was explained by Nona and then clarified by Christian.

[eytanz]

I'm not sure it had to do directly with belief, so much as with pretending - women with makeup aren't (usually) pretending to be someone else, and bras aren't about pretending anymore than, say, t-shirts are.

It's possible that some women (and men) who were deliberately trying to use clothing and makeup to pretend to be different than they were did change. I'm assuming that if the town had any drag queens, for example, they became women. But compared to vampires, werewolves, and giant sock puppets, those changes probably didn't create much of an impression.

As for why the vampire slayer retained her personality but the vampire didn't - I think only aspects of personality/appearance that pertain directly to the pretense change. I guess Pete was pretending to be the kind of vampire that is animalistic, rather than the suave, in-control type; this means that whatever part of his initial personality survives was overruled by his violent urges. Lillian was pretending to be a buffy-type vampire slayer, someone who tried to lead a normal life while also possessing superpowers. So, her normal-life aspects remained.

[eytanz]

I think there's a difference between trying to appear younger/bustier and pretending. Given that the story specifically mentions actors and role-players as the ones that changed, I would think that you would have to do more than just be in some sort of outfit that changes you appearance, but you'd need to be portraying some sort of attitude as well.

Actually, based on Christian, I think physical appearance was probably not important - it seemed that people had to be acting like something else to transform. So a woman wearing a padded bra but acting normally would probably not change. A woman wearing a padded bra and explicitly telling people she has large breasts would.

However, I agree with you about strippers, except that the story was set in a small midwestern college town, and it's quite possible that it didn't have any strip clubs. And I think the story did imply - though maybe not state explicitly - that the effects of the spell were limited to the town.

[deflective]

the woman at a bar who's made up to look younger doesn't act younger? the balding banker on a harley trying to figure out the safety on a new lighter is trying to portray an attitude. pretending to be yourself at a different point in your life is still pretending.

people are putting way too much stock into Christian's claim that the spell made him fall in love. this is a guy who idolized the slayer character to a point where he's sinking money into creating a movie, then he gets to meet a real live one. how hard is it to mistake your own infatuation & admiration for love? just how different is it from love? by claiming it's the spell he creates a space where it's safe to lay out his feelings without fully exposing himself.

Lillian is hardly objective in the matter, she's so self conscious she's still worried about arm-flab well after the point she realized she doesn't have any anymore. this makes it really easy for her to believe that the only way someone would be interested in her is through magic.

but really, we can speculate all we want but it's much more likely that the author didn't fully think through the spell's effects.

[hautdesert]

this sounds better but still: a padded, underwire bra is all about pretending. makeup usually is too (take twenty years off / put five years on).

Not in my experience, it's not.  Underwire is all about the support.  Not infrequently, bras that don't have underwire will use padding instead for the same purpose--though that's inadequate for some of us.  Underwire doesn't actually make your breasts look any bigger than they are--believe me, I have no need to pretend I've got anything, and I always, always wear underwire, because otherwise, the structural support just isn't there.

So, while some padded bras are all about giving you the next letter, not even remotely all of them are, and underwires aren't about that at all.

Makeup--isn't (always, or even often) worn to make you look younger.  It's worn to smooth out any sort of flaws in your skin and to accent or tweak certain aspects of your face--the color/size of your eyes, the shape of your mouth, etc.  You can certainly use makeup to appear younger, if you're motivated and skilled.  But that's not its primary purpose.  And note that, for adolescent women, one purpose is to make them look older.  Also, I'd submit that makeup in particular is so customary that one of the main reason women wear it is because they're "supposed to,"  not because they're actually trying to deceive.  

So, while occasionally makeup is deliberate deception, or pretend, in most cases it's not.

[deflective]

Underwire is all about the support.  Not infrequently, bras that don't have underwire will use padding instead for the same purpose--though that's inadequate for some of us.  Underwire doesn't actually make your breasts look any bigger than they are--believe me, I have no need to pretend I've got anything, and I always, always wear underwire, because otherwise, the structural support just isn't there.

alright, i'm not familiar with the nomenclature here: i meant push-up instead of underwire. push-up bras use an underwire?

remember that this was an example of how bras could be used to pretend.

Makeup--isn't (always, or even often) worn to make you look younger.  It's worn to smooth out any sort of flaws in your skin and to accent or tweak certain aspects of your face--the color/size of your eyes, the shape of your mouth, etc.  You can certainly use makeup to appear younger, if you're motivated and skilled.  But that's not its primary purpose.  And note that, for adolescent women, one purpose is to make them look older.  Also, I'd submit that makeup in particular is so customary that one of the main reason women wear it is because they're "supposed to,"  not because they're actually trying to deceive.

So, while occasionally makeup is deliberate deception, or pretend, in most cases it's not.

the younger/older thing was used as an example, it's not an exhaustive list. and i did note that girls use it to look older. =)

i never intended to suggest that all woman consciously try to deceive people but an era's socially enforced costume is still a costume. smoothing & accenting is a type of deceit the same way that saying 'fine' when asked how you are doing may be a deceit. socially expected, we don't even think about it, but we are making things appear different than they actually are.

we had a similar conversation before. you're taking my position to say that people are acting with intent when it isn't the case.

[hautdesert]

push-up bras use an underwire?

No idea, to be honest.  I am...not part of the demographic that would ever feel the need for such an item.

i never intended to suggest that all woman consciously try to deceive people but an era's socially enforced costume is still a costume. smoothing & accenting is a type of deceit the same way that saying 'fine' when asked how you are doing may be a deceit. socially expected, we don't even think about it, but we are making things appear different than they actually are.

But at this point, you're in the same territory as any clothes at all.  A T-shirt and jeans do the same--cover some things, exaggerate others.  And an era's socially enforced costume is assumed with a particular sense of its appropriateness.  In other words, a person who wears a particular kind of clothes and makeup is saying, whether she's conscious of it or not, "I am this sort of person."  At work, it would be, "I am a doctor" or "I am a lunch lady" or "I am an accountant."  At home, it would be, "I am casual/formal/wealthy/careless of my looks/meticulous" and on and on, whatever.  All those messages can easily be entirely true.  While there would certainly be occasions on which the message didn't match what a given person genuinely believed herself to be (for instance, a play, or a very formal event for someone who rarely dresses up, say), by and large the version of the costume she assumes is going to match what she is, within the range of what's appropriate for that society.  She (or he, for that matter) isn't actually making her/himself appear as something other than what she is.

you're taking my position to say that people are acting with intent when it isn't the case.

No, I'm saying that deceit just isn't what's going on when someone puts on a nice suit, or a pair of nylons.  Decoration is not the same thing as deceit, intended or not.

[deflective]

But at this point, you're in the same territory as any clothes at all.  A T-shirt and jeans do the same--cover some things, exaggerate others.
...
Decoration is not the same thing as deceit, intended or not.

most clothes do not try to deceive, just conceal. a veil is clothes for the face: it prevents you from seeing the face but doesn't try to make the face look like something it's not. drawing a star on your cheek with makeup is decoration, smoothing the skin in such a way that it's difficult to tell that makeup was used is deceit. a suit jacket with padded shoulders is deceit.

actually, deceit is too strong a word. the negative connotations don't apply here but the central idea is the same.

[eytanz]

But at this point, you're in the same territory as any clothes at all.  A T-shirt and jeans do the same--cover some things, exaggerate others.
...
Decoration is not the same thing as deceit, intended or not.

most clothes do not try to deceive, just conceal. a veil is clothes for the face: it prevents you from seeing the face but doesn't try to make the face look like something it's not. drawing a star on your cheek with makeup is decoration, smoothing the skin in such a way that it's difficult to tell that makeup was used is deceit. a suit jacket with padded shoulders is deceit.

actually, deceit is too strong a word. the negative connotations don't apply here but the central idea is the same.

Even without negative connotations, I think you are not correct. For one, it's not true that most clothes only try to conceal. If that was the case, then there would be no difference between going to work in a suit and going to work in a t-shirt and gym shorts. The clothes you wear - even if they are in no way form-altering - don't just cover up your naughty bits and protect you from the weather, they give the world a signal about you.

If human personality was monolithic, if there was only one aspect to it, then you would be right. But the same person can act differently in different circumstances, based on what they are doing, cultural expectations, and so forth. I would think most clothes choices, as well as most makeup choices, are not designed to obscure anything about the wearer - it's designed to tell the world "this is the sort of activity I am interested in right now".

That said, of course most makeup is designed to conceal things. But I don't see what's the difference in covering an odd pimple or wrinkle with makeup and covering up your genitals with baggy pants. In daily life - as oppose to on television and fashion magazines - the former isn't designed to give the impression that you don't have skin blemishes; it's designed to prevent you from seeing those blemishes. Just like wearing baggy pants isn't designed to make people think you are a eunuch.

but really, we can speculate all we want but it's much more likely that the author didn't fully think through the spell's effects.

Oh, almost certainly, but that doesn't mean the discussion isn't interesting for its own sake. I find it so, at least.

[Rachel Swirsky]

that doesn't mean the discussion isn't interesting for its own sake. I find it so, at least.

Perhaps, though, it would be best as its own thread.

[eytanz]

that doesn't mean the discussion isn't interesting for its own sake. I find it so, at least.

Perhaps, though, it would be best as its own thread.

I wouldn't argue with that, but the way that normally happens is that we let the topic drift in the episode thread and some helpful mod comes and splits it off, no?

[Heradel]

that doesn't mean the discussion isn't interesting for its own sake. I find it so, at least.

Perhaps, though, it would be best as its own thread.

I wouldn't argue with that, but the way that normally happens is that we let the topic drift in the episode thread and some helpful mod comes and splits it off, no?

And so it has been.

[deflective]

but really, we can speculate all we want but it's much more likely that the author didn't fully think through the spell's effects.

Oh, almost certainly, but that doesn't mean the discussion isn't interesting for its own sake. I find it so, at least.

cool, i was just making sure were all on the same page with moving the topic to a big picture =)

And so it has been.

maybe a little overenthusiastic? everything up to hautdesert's first post was focused on the story.

and i'd be more comfortable in a thread labeled 'social deceits' or the like instead of bras & makeup. kinda made my own bed on that one tho.

most clothes do not try to deceive, just conceal.

you are not correct. For one, it's not true that most clothes only try to conceal.

unclear use of the word 'just.' i meant that they concealed without deceiving, not that they concealed without doing anything else at all.

That said, of course most makeup is designed to conceal things. But I don't see what's the difference in covering an odd pimple or wrinkle with makeup and covering up your genitals with baggy pants. In daily life - as oppose to on television and fashion magazines - the former isn't designed to give the impression that you don't have skin blemishes; it's designed to prevent you from seeing those blemishes. Just like wearing baggy pants isn't designed to make people think you are a eunuch.

of course makeup is designed to give the impression that you don't have skin blemishes, that's what it should look like. just because it's a socially accepted (expected) deceit doesn't mean that it's not a deceit. it's the difference between a toupé and a hat. if people just covered a blemish without creating the impression that it didn't exist they could use hello kitty face paint.

if a pair of pants was designed to hide your bits the same way that makeup hides a pimple it would be a skin coloured speedo so tight it wrenched your genitals between your legs. which makes me wince and, oddly, feel like i should get a small dog and dig a pit in the basement.

[Anarkey]

push-up bras use an underwire?

No idea, to be honest.  I am...not part of the demographic that would ever feel the need for such an item.

I believe (though also not an expert even though I'm a joyous member of the small boobs club) that the primary purpose of a push-up is to create cleavage, not necessarily to make breasts look larger.  Some clothing cuts and styles look really weird without cleavage, and not everyone naturally has it without crossing their arms under their chest and squeezing.  Push-ups do the squeezing, I believe.  They can have underwire and they might also have side boning and a half cup (sometimes called a demi) so you can wear the stuff that shows the cleavage, but I believe the main thing is the placement of the cups closer together. 

I have never worn one of these, my firsthand specialty bra experience extends only as far as nursing bras.