Author Topic: EP181: Resistance  (Read 35170 times)

Russell Nash

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on: October 26, 2008, 09:32:34 AM
EP181: Resistance

By Tobias S. Buckell.
Read by Stephen Eley.
First appeared in Seeds of Change, ed. John Joseph Adams.

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The man opened the pack all the way to reveal a small arsenal of guns, grenades, explosives, and — oddly — knives. Very large knives. He looked up at Stanuel. “I am the attack. I’ve been asked to shut Pan down.”

“But you’re not a programmer…”

“I can do all things through explosives, who destroy for me.” The man began moving the contents of the pack inside the pockets and straps of the trenchcoat, clipped more to his belt and thigh, as well as to holsters under each arm, and then added pieces to his ankles.

He was now a walking arsenal.

But only half the pack had been emptied. The mysterious mercenary tossed it at Stanuel. “Besides, you’re going to help.”


Rated PG. Contains violence and political revolution.



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600south

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Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 01:03:36 PM
If other web forums at the moment are anything to go by, this one will descend into a partisan US political sniping match in 5...4...3... 
so i'll get my thoughts in early.

I enjoyed this a lot. I'd write more, but I'm still working it over in my mind and the conclusion could result in a rambling essay longer than the original story. But what I did think was: the ratio of people in the world living in true, pluralistic democracies is low compared to those living under dictatorships, unelected collectives and corrupt democracies. Only a tiny minority are doing anything about it. For most, just getting by is more important than achieving the perfect system.

98% of times, Stanuel would not have pressed the button. But then, how many of us get the chance to reset the system all by ourselves?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 01:06:13 PM by 600south »



coyote247

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Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 05:19:10 PM

This story made me rage. Which is, I suppose, a good reaction as any from a story.

My own opinion is that people defending ideas, like Stanuel at the beginning of the story, is the enlightened evolution of political culture. I don't think it's noble or necessary to rely on revolution, even nonviolent. You're still cowing people that way; the most powerful minority simply gets the majority who don't want to be involved to give them the backbone, the structure they need to defeat the other radical minorities.

There's nothing right or noble about knocking out the whole station's power instead of knocking out the dictator when they got the chance. Hell, most dictators get that way by mass support, that's no reason to destroy society and pit factions against each other when instead you could use anti-dictatorial inertia to get everyone to work together and disable the Pan without disabling the society.

When people give up their power they have the right to recall it without having to restart from scratch. Democracy is about tweaking the system, not about knocking it over in a cycle of dictator then revolution then dictator than revolution. Throughout history revolutions of essentially a minority opinion pitted against the opposing minority opinions have done the most, good and bad, but I think there have been a few instances of popular resistance and compromise and that's the kind of society that humanity is moving towards in it's best aspects. The social trend of targeted revolution and political tweaking rather than actual civil war is basically what's suppose to lead our age to the advanced society of the future portrayed in scifi novels.




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Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 08:47:37 PM
I recently read Buckell’s Crystal Rain so I’ve seen Pepper before. I liked this better than Crystal Rain.

I wish we had that button.

Don't tell me we do, that we can press it when we vote cause I'm one of the people who think the machines are fixed.



Zathras

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Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 12:10:30 AM
The action was well paced.  This story was very thought provoking.

I like the fact that Pan created the resistance.  It would be interesting to know what percentage of the population was on Pan's side.

I like Pepper's reaction.

I kept this simple intentionally.  Now, to quote Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that".



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Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 04:19:16 AM
One of the better EP stories of late.  Had me thinking, and had me thinking in directions I haven't been thinking in lately.  That *and* it had plot and character development.  A rare combination, it would seem.  I ask for a story to actually have a story (that is, with beginning/middle/end)  and this one delivered.

Good job.



Sylvan

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Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 02:09:43 PM
I very much enjoyed this story and only in part because I agree with its sentiments about the abrogation of responsibility in voting.  Becoming involved is crucial; to walk away from that is to walk away -in my opinion- from the foundation of "culture".

In listening to "Resistance" I found myself wondering if a premise of the story -that creating a machine to estimate and take responsibility for your vote- was fundamentally flawed.  The biggest problem with most tyrants is that they impose their will on their people while failing to reflect wants and needs.  This is the model of the "bananna republic dictator".  However, by making an artificial sapience out of the people's amalgamated beliefs, wouldn't this -by definition- be the closest you could come to an actual quorum ... the truest reflection of Democracy?

Also, in the end, isn't the action of Stanuel a form of coup?  I mean, we know that it is from the opening sentences of the story, but how is his action (in EMP'ing the station) any different from what PAN was doing?  Certainly, more people would be hurt and put in danger by Stanuel's deeds than would have happened under PAN's regime.  Mind you, PAN created the resistance, so perhaps it's all right ... its just a reflection of the needs of the people.  That aside, is Stanuel's executive decision any better because it acts on principle than the aggregate principles of those who made up PAN?  In essence, isn't he acting on his own ideology over the the combined ideology of the society he claims to love?

In short, I believe that he is violating the very principles that the residents of the station were hoping to maintain.

Perhaps the real critique this story brings up is that being an ideologue -setting up your ivory towers in hopes of creating cohesion- is the biggest danger to civilization.

When 600south said
Quote
"98% of times, Stanuel would not have pressed the button."
I have to disagree.  The monkey brains we all have inside our skulls tend to idolize heroes like this:  people who will operate on principle and do "the right thing" when everyone else has been "led astray."  As the story says, our minds look to leadership on a fundamental, primate level.

Look at how many people idolize Mal in "Firefly".  Sure, it's easy to stare wistfully at the "living free" sentiment of his viewpoint and -yeah- we're given his positive point-of-view on the war of the Browncoats, but it's a "the strong survive" philosophy that eschews governance by the many; to do the most good for the most people.

I'm not saying that this belief is wrong, only that it's reflective of many heroes ("super" and otherwise) people create in their fiction.  In that way, this story reflects the desire for an absolute right way of thinking -the "life in a gilded cage is still a prison", Captain Kirk attitude- that many of us idolize without really thinking about the ramifications of living with such a belief, applied on a universal, unyielding level.

I think that coyote247 said it best with
Quote
"When people give up their power they have the right to recall it without having to restart from scratch. Democracy is about tweaking the system, not about knocking it over in a cycle of dictator then revolution then dictator then revolution."

In essence, PAN is a "tyranny of the majority" forged in a selective, isolated community in which everyone founding it believed that they all thought alike sufficiently to believe that this would not be a problem.  The station is the ultimate gated community.  Perhaps this is my only problem with the tale:  we never got to see any negativity coming from PAN.  Stanuel never voiced any specific reason for his dislike of the system other than the ideological.  There were no bad decisions coming out of PAN that we ever got a chance to witness.  In the end Stanuel is a despot, a bananna republic dictator, acting to support his ideology while resenting the actions of an "enlightened" dictator who cannot -by definition- act against the will of the people.

It's an interesting dichotomy.

For myself, I know that I would have pushed the button; I just don't know if that would have been the right thing to do.

Oh, as an unrelated note, I'm sorry I've not been participating on the forums as much as I used to.  I'm finding it hard to be a part of any online community of late as I'm attempting to balance my physical world life with that of the digital.  I'll really try to keep more in touch!

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)



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Reply #7 on: October 27, 2008, 02:51:02 PM
I read this a few months ago, so I got to save a few minutes by skipping the actual "story" part of the story.

I like the fact that Pan created the resistance. 

Probably the best part of the story. The rest of it was a little too reminiscent of Objects in Space -- the bounty hunter who shows up and is instantly awesome, mostly. And the name Stanuel, while interesting, got a tad annoying after a while. I mean, seriously, "Stanuel"? Didn't I hear that on "American Dad" once or twice as Stan's full name?

As for the political implications... I'm staying out of it. I did vote. That's all I have to say about that.

Not quite sure I really understood the song at the end. I liked it when the drums picked up. I'd have to read the lyrics to get the full impact, I think.

Anyway, I remember not loving the story, nor hating it either, except for, as I said, Pan creating the resistance.

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Void Munashii

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Reply #8 on: October 27, 2008, 03:03:01 PM
  Wow, heavy preachy story, but very well done. I really enjoyed it. Am I the only one that saw Pepper being played by Samuel L Jackson?

  I was not particularly surprised that Pan had created the resistance, but the revelation was done well all the same.

  The only thing that I really did not understand about Pan was why he had seemingly been so oppresive during his short reign? Did tha majority of people in Haven really want armed droids flying around enforcing curfews? In a society where the ruler is truly interested in what is best for the entire population (and I have no reason to beleive that Pan did not have the best interests of everyone in mind) and the ability to make those things happen, shouldn't the majority of people be at least reasonably content? Was Stanuel just an overall malcontent? Am I just still a little naive under this jaded and cynical shell after all?

  For the record, I think Stanuel should have at least consulted with the other members of the resistance before setting off the EMP. It seems like Pan would have allowed that. What he did was dangerous, irresponsible, and was what he wanted, not necessarily what was best for Haven as a whole.

  One last thing. Haven = Rapture in space?

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Rain

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Reply #9 on: October 27, 2008, 03:45:30 PM
People get together to make a democratic system that has no chance of working, instead of changing it they make computer personalities do all the voting, the computer personalities decide that the best thing to do is merge and make a single being that can handle things the best, Pan. Pan turns the space station into a much better place, has support of the majority but is willing to step down if the democracy wants it. Terrorists cant accept that and would rather blow up the station.

I know the story was trying to make a point about our society, but when you make the dictator the good guy it kinda falls to the ground, besides that a good story



Zathras

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Reply #10 on: October 27, 2008, 04:05:31 PM
Am I the only one that saw Pepper being played by Samuel L Jackson?

I could see that. 


The other point I forgot to bring up, and this has been touched upon, is that a "True Democracy" was displayed brilliantly.  I think the representative republic that we Americans have has it's flaws, but is vastly better than a true democracy. 

(Yes, our system has issues, and could be much better, and I voted absentee, and on and on...)  I don't mind having a discussion on the merits and flaws of different types of governments.  I just see, as was mentioned by 600south, that this could get ugly.  I'll take part, but when it gets nasty, I'm gone.  (I'm gonna try to be on my best behavior.  If I slip, CALL ME OUT ON IT).

Oh, and one other request, if the chair gets used on me, can I get smacked somewhere other than the head?   :D



Sylvan

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Reply #11 on: October 27, 2008, 04:30:21 PM
The other point I forgot to bring up, and this has been touched upon, is that a "True Democracy" was displayed brilliantly.  I think the representative republic that we Americans have has it's flaws, but is vastly better than a true democracy.

When I was a college student studying ancient history, I would often ruminate on just how much better a "True Democracy" would be, ala the Athenian model.  Since then, however, I've seen more evidence towards the tyranny of the majority.  As you state, Zathras, what we have, now, may have its flaws, but it's better than a "pure" Democracy.

I do have to wonder if adding a layer of Meritocracy to the whole mix would be good, too.  In other words, create a public schooling system that would provide everyone with the skills we would, then, require of our leaders.  This would be like the idea of "raising all boats" and -then- putting basic requirements for leadership in place other than mere physical age.

Yours,
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Reply #12 on: October 27, 2008, 04:36:50 PM
What a pleasure to get a "Pepper" story out of EscapePod!  Fun, indeed.

I like Buckell and I like his universe.  I've read the three books with Pepper in them (Crystal Rain, Ragamuffin and Sly Mongoose).  I have some issues with the recurring character of Pepper, and these become greater as I get more exposure to him.  It's like I can see yeah, he's a hero of a different mold and he's a metahuman (or parahuman, or posthuman, or whatever) so our standards don't apply, but I find so much of what he says and does SO problematic. (After the story.  DURING the story I find it all kickass and fun and engaging as I believe I'm meant to).  In the end, though, I'm always left with a bit of a slimy feeling, and unconvinced Pepper's the good guy.  I don't mind reading about Pepper, but I'm pretty damn sure I wouldn't like him if I met him. 

Buckell treats a lot of things with a subtlety that interests me, including his explorations of gender/race and multiculturalism (which admittedly, there wasn't a whole lot of in this particular piece).   And I like that he shows the warts of all his utopias, but ultimately, I find his political constructions a little facile.  Plotwise, the political questions always boil down to either/or in his stories, and that's just not enough political nuance for my taste.  Because, come on now, blow the whole thing up or be ruled by the benevolent tyrant were the only options?  Really?  And we figured this all out in four days?  Give me a break.  I like my explosions just fine, but don't tell me there's wasn't but the two options, because that's a false dichotomy.

All in all, glad I heard it, enjoyed it, but I want Buckell to step up the complexity of his politics.  I also want him to make things a little harder on Pepper.  Sometimes I feel like Buckell stacks the deck in his favor.  And why?   The guy's indestructible.  Let's see Pepper in some emotional pain once in a while.  Better yet, let's see him be WRONG.

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ryos

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Reply #13 on: October 27, 2008, 05:46:23 PM
Steve - thanks. Thanks for the story, and thanks for not using Escape Pod as a vehicle for your political views.

This story (and your outro) actually made me get up out of bed* and fill out the application for an absentee ballot** that has been sitting forgotten in a pile of papers on my desk for months, despite the fact that it was 2:30 AM. I hope it's not too late - I saw no mention of a deadline on the application itself (there's a deadline to register to vote, but I'm already registered...I just need the mail-in ballot).

The story itself was pretty good. Pan went from despotic tyrant to benevolent dictator a little too quickly for my tastes. Yes, it could have just been lying to forestall its execution, but its actions prior to the assassins' approach and after don't quite line up. In one instant it's employing surveil and destroy bots to rein in the populace, then in the next it's dropped the use of force in favor of persuasive arguments. That felt wrong, but the rest of the story was good.


* I listen to podcasts to help me go to sleep. It's not that you're boring, it's that you re-route my train of thought enough to allow me to put on the brakes and fall asleep.

** As an out-of-state student, my only recourse for voting is the absentee ballot.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 06:10:01 PM by ryos »



Roney

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Reply #14 on: October 27, 2008, 09:50:27 PM
My initial reaction was "Ooh, tough choice.  I wouldn't like to be in his shoes."  (Initial may not be the right word there.  I had an earlier reaction that went something like "Dear God, enough of the political philosophy infodumps already!  No, seriously, enough!  Please stop boring at me and get back to the story."  That was a much, much earlier reaction.)  But after a bit of reflection I became more and more certain that I wouldn't push that button.

Who is the tyrant, the one man imposing his idea of how society ought to be, overruling the clearly expressed wishes of the majority?  Not Pan.

On the other hand, I haven't thought this much about an Escape Pod story in some time.



Zathras

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Reply #15 on: October 27, 2008, 10:03:12 PM
I think it was a truly human action to push the button.  I think often that people tend to criticize the author for a character's failings.  I think it was the wrong choice.  He could have pushed the button at any time. 

Why not at least gather up some other members of the resistance?  Or call for a vote by the whole station?  Or any of a dozen other things?

Because Stanuel is human, and humans rarely make perfect choices.

Again, Resistance is a wonderfully thought provoking piece.



thomasowenm

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Reply #16 on: October 27, 2008, 10:42:15 PM
I will join in the chorus and state Resistance  was thought provoking.  While it did ram it's moral down our throats it wasn't unbearable like other episodes have in the past.  Realizing that people would abdicate their responsiblilities, so that they could enjoy life without being bothered with the minutia of a government seemed eerily plausible.  When given the chance at leisure or, dirt under the fingernails democracy,  I think most would choose the former.  Sad.

As for Sam L. Jackson I can see him as Pepper though Bruce Willis would be my preference.



wintermute

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Reply #17 on: October 27, 2008, 11:30:13 PM
I'm of the (admittedly unfashionable) opinion that a benevolent dictatorship is the best possible system of government, with the massive downside of leading inevitably to evil dictatorship within a few generations.

So, I think that the people of Haven managed to create a perfect system of government, and then Stanuel decides that he's going to destroy everything so that they can go back to a system so unworkable that they already abandoned it once.

Good story, but I can't say I'm in favour of a small minority of anarchists deciding they can destroy a political system that has the support of the majority just because they feel like it.

But on the other hand, there's no evidence that Pan was telling the truth to Pepper, is there? The fact that the will of "the people" is enforced with armed ROVers implies that he might not be as benevolent as claimed. So, it's a quandary.

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Zathras

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Reply #18 on: October 27, 2008, 11:39:16 PM
Good story, but I can't say I'm in favour of a small minority of anarchists deciding they can destroy a political system that has the support of the majority just because they feel like it.

I don't believe Stanuel was an anarchist.  (Or a nihlist, which is what most "anarchists" are.)



wintermute

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Reply #19 on: October 27, 2008, 11:48:18 PM
Anarchism - The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished. From the Greek meaning "no rulers".

Stanuel believe that Pan was oppressive and undesirable purely because he was a government. He was prepared to plunge his society into a civil war just because he was part of a minority that didn't want any form of leadership.

I don't see how he can not be considered an anarchist.

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600south

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Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 02:04:51 AM
When 600south said
Quote
"98% of times, Stanuel would not have pressed the button."

I have to disagree.  The monkey brains we all have inside our skulls tend to idolize heroes like this:  people who will operate on principle and do "the right thing" when everyone else has been "led astray."  As the story says, our minds look to leadership on a fundamental, primate level.

Look at how many people idolize Mal in "Firefly".  Sure, it's easy to stare wistfully at the "living free" sentiment of his viewpoint and -yeah- we're given his positive point-of-view on the war of the Browncoats, but it's a "the strong survive" philosophy that eschews governance by the many; to do the most good for the most people.

That's true, though there's a difference between what we like our (fictional and real) heroes to do, and what we'd do ourselves. That's why there are many more examples of revolution, revenge, and bravery against the odds in movies than in real life.



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Reply #21 on: October 28, 2008, 02:08:37 AM
This story's message sounded like "Rah, rah, Vote!", but I think it was actually "Rah, rah, run for office!". Stanuel believed that every citizen should participate directly in their government and not use proxies. Unfortunately, that's totally impractical on a large scale (as was illustrated) so democracies need to be representative.

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deflective

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Reply #22 on: October 28, 2008, 02:42:13 AM
this is a perfect election story after two years of american campaigning and three canadian elections. the question does occur: is democracy worth it? it occurs from burnout but it occurs.

a lot of attention has been focused on Stanuel's decision but Pan's choice to put the emp device in his hands seems more interesting. any reasonably sized society is going to have people that will happily destroy it. this was a type of suicide bombing and, like most suicide bombings, it's the organization behind the action that's the issue.

Pan's psyche, a benevolent dictator built out of a society that idealized democracy, required that 'he' put himself into a situation where he could be destroyed. it seems like providing a system where discontent people could create their own society seems like a better compromise. of course, if Pan was flawed enough to harbor a deathwish it might be best that the society was rebuilt sooner rather than later.


i think Rebecca Romijn has already played Pepper. well, a Pepper.



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Reply #23 on: October 28, 2008, 02:54:35 AM
So...am I truly the only person so far for whom this story was strongly reminscent of The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?

I liked this story, and would like to see more like it.  Not for the "message" (which, by the way: bruises on my scalp), but because it was a good story well-told.


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Hatton

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Reply #24 on: October 28, 2008, 04:03:16 AM
While it did ram it's moral down our throats it wasn't unbearable like other episodes have in the past.  Realizing that people would abdicate their responsiblilities, so that they could enjoy life without being bothered with the minutia of a government seemed eerily plausible.  When given the chance at leisure or, dirt under the fingernails democracy,  I think most would choose the former.  Sad.

At least the culture that has developed today would... and to be blunt, technology has a lot to do with that.  We've educated ourselves to the point where skills that were once the exception are now commonplace.  We have created gadgets, gizmos, widgets and whirly-gigs that have made our world smaller and our existence unique.

Don't get me wrong, it's a wonderful thing, but there is a segment of the population that just flat-out doesn't care.  It's that group that this story really needs to be targeted at.  Sad truth is, they would probably rather drool over the latest Britney scandal or Red Carpet showing than engage their brains and think about a 30 minute story that was well laid out, grew over the course of the narrative and had me thinking and chuckling from the time that the "voting by persona" concept was introduced.

When it comes to voting, I'm with Steve.  He and I may differ wildly when it comes to political stances (my podcast is the East Coast Conservative Podcast, http://www.eastcoastconservative.com - Steve, feel free to remove the shameless plug if you desire) but we both agree on the fact that if people do not VOTE they submit themselves to the will of whoever does VOTE.

Actually, I'll take a moment and say that everyone needs to be educated before they vote... I'm not going to post enough to break off into a different conversation but I'll suggest this - go to http://www.smartvoter.org/ and search for your location.  Find out what you will be voting for and then make up your own mind where you stand on the issues.  No candidate is going to match your decisions 100%, but one will be more for what you believe than the other. (*steps off the soapbox*)

As for Sam L. Jackson I can see him as Pepper though Bruce Willis would be my preference.

Maybe, but I could never see Bruce with dreads.

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Sylvan

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Reply #25 on: October 28, 2008, 12:25:39 PM
That's true, though there's a difference between what we like our (fictional and real) heroes to do, and what we'd do ourselves. That's why there are many more examples of revolution, revenge, and bravery against the odds in movies than in real life.
Oh, without a doubt!

For example, I love Firefly and Serenity; I can fantasize about the adventure and meaning in that fictional universe.  It's the same way that I think Stanuel and PAN are promoted in this story:  as iconic representations of ideology (like Mal and his crew) rather than something more broad.

Does that make any sense?

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)



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Reply #26 on: October 28, 2008, 08:25:50 PM
Am I the only one who wasn't enthused at all by this story?  It was way preachy and I didn't really find any of the concepts novel.

It sounded kind of like a Heinlein story (as noted by others), except that Heinlein could actually write interesting characters and he seldom got this out-and-out preachy.  Staniel sounds more like an object caught in the flow of a tide than someone who's actually developing.  At the end, I didn't know if he'd push the button not because it was a major cusp of a decision, but because I couldn't see the little paper man deciding anything on his own.

Pan himself was nothing but a font of angst.  His diatribes provided very little about why and how an AI software program had managed to set up a police state from scratch within a matter of days, and his argument that the people could simply vote him out at any time made me wonder why this wasn't rebutted.  If it was true, why wasn't there any mention of a campaign to do so?  His duality arguments, and setting up the resistance, made me think strongly of the redoubtable Leto Atreides II having a bastard child with Helios.

Then there was the gunbunny mercenary who started out preaching the gospel of his unholy god of explosives and rushing Staniel along like a paper boat caught in a tsunami.  As soon as he saw Pan, the author flipped a switch or did some kind of mind transferrance to turn him into an entirely different character, some kind of political science professor.  Then he abruptly agreed with everything Pan said and vanished stage left to leave Staniel with the Big Red Button in his hand.

I was left wondering, "wtf?  non sequitur," and quite as confused as I imagine Staniel was, as the curtain fell on this tragedy of a farce.



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Reply #27 on: October 28, 2008, 08:43:29 PM

As for Sam L. Jackson I can see him as Pepper though Bruce Willis would be my preference.

Maybe, but I could never see Bruce with dreads.

I've seen Sam Jackson with dreads. It wasn't a pretty picture. Then again, pretty is probably not Pepper's goal. 


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Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 11:08:41 AM
This was my favorite Escape Pod in some time.  I didn't realize until reading this thread that the story takes place in an already established universe (the Pepperverse?) but now I have to find me some more Pepperlore.

One thing I have to comment on:

If other web forums at the moment are anything to go by, this one will descend into a partisan US political sniping match in 5...4...3... 
so i'll get my thoughts in early.

I don't post here an awful lot, but I've read my share of threads going back a few months.  I've read threads where people have had some pretty profound disagreements about politics and society, and compared to other boards this one is extraordinarily civil.  In fact, I've seen posts where individuals realized they were perilously close to crossing The Line, and voluntarily pulled themselves back.

This thread probably isn't the most appropriate place for me to say it, but I am very impressed with this board and the people here.  I've seen too many places online where the regulars can't help themselves from making useless political trash talk that just antagonizes people.

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Reply #29 on: October 29, 2008, 01:12:36 PM
i think Rebecca Romijn has already played Pepper. well, a Pepper.

So has Gwynneth Paltrow.

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Reply #30 on: October 29, 2008, 01:26:01 PM
i think Rebecca Romijn has already played Pepper. well, a Pepper.

So has Gwynneth Paltrow.
Along with Jason Bateman, Christopher Guest, Angie Dickinson, Ricki Lake, Woody Harrison, Robert Redford, Jason Lee, John Turturro, Sammy Davis Jr, Yasmine Bleeth, and a whole mess of people I've never heard of.

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Reply #31 on: October 29, 2008, 01:37:02 PM
i think Rebecca Romijn has already played Pepper. well, a Pepper.
So has Gwynneth Paltrow.
Along with Jason Bateman, Christopher Guest, Angie Dickinson, Ricki Lake, Woody Harrison, Robert Redford, Jason Lee, John Turturro, Sammy Davis Jr, Yasmine Bleeth, and a whole mess of people I've never heard of.

Wouldn't you like to be a Pepper, too?

« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 01:39:21 PM by Zathras »



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Reply #32 on: October 29, 2008, 02:58:35 PM
This was my favorite Escape Pod in some time.  I didn't realize until reading this thread that the story takes place in an already established universe (the Pepperverse?) but now I have to find me some more Pepperlore.

I'm not sure Buckell's universe has an official label (though I chuckled at "Pepperverse"), but in the books characters refer to it as "The 48 worlds" or sometimes "The 48 worlds of the Satrapy".  There's been a human diaspora, through wormholes, and the 48 worlds were (until recently) under the despotic rule of some aliens known as "Satraps".  At least one of the books has a diagram that looks like a public transport map of the wormholes.  They're great books, really fun to read.  I recommend them.

BTW, one of the books features a working technocratic direct democracy that doesn't give up their vote the way "Haven" does.  So some of the givens that readers are taking away from the story are disproved by other stories in the same universe.  Which I find amusing.  And interesting.  And I STILL think Buckell's politics are oversimplified.  Perhaps I'm just too demanding.

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wintermute

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Reply #33 on: October 29, 2008, 03:16:44 PM
I'm not sure Buckell's universe has an official label (though I chuckled at "Pepperverse"), but in the books characters refer to it as "The 48 worlds" or sometimes "The 48 worlds of the Satrapy".  There's been a human diaspora, through wormholes, and the 48 worlds were (until recently) under the despotic rule of some aliens known as "Satraps".
Hrm. A satrap was a Persian governor, ruler of a territory but responsible to the King of Persia. But, except in those situations where the King chose to get involved, they were very much of the "absolute monarch" model, with a strong reputation for despotism.

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Reply #34 on: October 29, 2008, 03:20:51 PM
When it comes to voting, I'm with Steve.  He and I may differ wildly when it comes to political stances (my podcast is the East Coast Conservative Podcast, http://www.eastcoastconservative.com - Steve, feel free to remove the shameless plug if you desire) but we both agree on the fact that if people do not VOTE they submit themselves to the will of whoever does VOTE.

I for one will check out your podcast.  I'm always on the lookout for a good political 'cast, particularly one that doesn't necessarily reinforce my somewhat left-of-center POV.  Currently I only subscribe to Dani Cutler's left-leaning "Truth Seekers" and Dan Carlin's firmly nonpartisan "Common Sense".  The few others I've checked out, both left and right, get annoying in a really short time.

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Reply #35 on: October 29, 2008, 03:54:34 PM
Hrm. A satrap was a Persian governor, ruler of a territory but responsible to the King of Persia. But, except in those situations where the King chose to get involved, they were very much of the "absolute monarch" model, with a strong reputation for despotism.

Yes.  I think he picked the name deliberately, but I can't really go into why without breaking out major spoilage on the books, so I won't.  Though I will say that I think the label of "Satrap" was human applied (or extracted from humans, perhaps), and not necessarily what the aliens would call themselves among themselves.

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Reply #36 on: October 30, 2008, 12:00:22 AM
In the end a man saw his world and made a choice those are always the best stories.



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Reply #37 on: October 30, 2008, 02:16:01 AM
Am I the only one who wasn't enthused at all by this story? 

I can't say, but I was less enthused than most others. I definitely enjoyed some of the story elements and for a story that came off (to me at least) as very preachy with lots of info dumps, it still managed to make me think.

And, hey, I want a rain coat like Pepper's. Or trench coat. Or space suit. Or whatever. Very cool.



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Reply #38 on: October 30, 2008, 01:44:57 PM
I definitely enjoyed some of the story elements and for a story that came off (to me at least) as very preachy with lots of info dumps, it still managed to make me think.
Yes, the story was preachy but -then again- we're talking meta-politics discussion, here; surely any discussion or story about it is going to come off as "Preachy", right?

But that aside, I'd like to bring up something that's been on my mind for some time, now:  are "info-dumps" always a bad thing?  Especially in short story form, aren't they sometimes a necessity?  And, if they are, what makes a "good info-dump" differ from a "bad info-dump"?

Yours contemplatively,
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« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 04:29:19 PM by Sylvan »



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Reply #39 on: October 30, 2008, 02:26:04 PM
I definitely enjoyed some of the story elements and for a story that came off (to me at least) as very preachy with lots of info dumps, it still managed to make me think.
Yes, the story was preachy but -then again- we're talking meta-politics discussion, here; surely any discussion or story about it is going to come off as "Preachy", right?

My main beef with the story-- which I found to be pretty weak-- was that it wasn't  a discussion, or really a story, at all.  It was a lecture, or a series of lectures.  That, IMO, is one of the worst traditions of political SF: writers who so badly want to get their point across that they have to put it directly in the mouths of one of their characters.  When, as here, it's on the level of a college sophomore, I just roll my eyes and move on.

(As a side note, the author misses what a panopticon is all about.  Pan says that the point of a panopticon is that the jailer can watch the inmates at all times.  As I understand it, the idea of a panoptic prison is that the prisoners can't know whether or not they're being watched.  As a result, they internalize the mechanism of control, and no central authority ends up being needed.)

My other beef with the story was with Pepper, the trenchcoat-wearing, massive arsenal-carrying (guns! bombs! knives!  he's only missing his kickass katana!), wisdom-spouting mercenary... in other words, the fantasy figure of every Matrix fanboy out there.  That's a cliche that doesn't hold a lot of appeal for me.



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Reply #40 on: October 30, 2008, 07:25:47 PM
Where monsters are a scary story told to children, Pepper is the scary story told to monsters. (a rephrase from Crystal Rain)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 07:58:57 PM by alllie »



Corydon

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Reply #41 on: October 30, 2008, 08:41:14 PM
Where monsters are a scary story told to children, Pepper is the scary story told to monsters. (a rephrase from Crystal Rain)

Hmm, I think you mean, "when the bogeyman goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris Pepper."



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Reply #42 on: October 30, 2008, 09:23:11 PM
i'm sure you both meant, "when the bogeyman goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris Pepper Susan."
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 09:27:23 PM by deflective »



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Reply #43 on: October 30, 2008, 09:38:09 PM
i'm sure you all meant, "when the bogeyman goes to sleep at night, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris Pepper Susan N_sh."



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Reply #44 on: October 30, 2008, 11:24:07 PM
Listened again.

I've seen this ending before.  It was much better in Escape from L.A.



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Reply #45 on: October 31, 2008, 12:47:26 AM
I definitely enjoyed some of the story elements and for a story that came off (to me at least) as very preachy with lots of info dumps, it still managed to make me think.
Yes, the story was preachy but -then again- we're talking meta-politics discussion, here; surely any discussion or story about it is going to come off as "Preachy", right?

But that aside, I'd like to bring up something that's been on my mind for some time, now:  are "info-dumps" always a bad thing?  Especially in short story form, aren't they sometimes a necessity?  And, if they are, what makes a "good info-dump" differ from a "bad info-dump"?

Yours contemplatively,
Sylvan (Dave)

It might be hard not to be preachy in a meta-political discussion, but I think it can be done.

As for your question about info-dumping, I'd agree info-dumps can sometimes be necessary. I'd start by saying a "good" info dump generally gives you just the information you need, when you need it, and at most provides a pause in the story, rather than halting the story. Even better if the information it provides gives you some insight to a character that perhaps could not be effectively delivered in another way. I think the reason I wasn't very enthused with this story, really, is that the info-dumping WAS the story. Corydon nailed it. I didn't really care about the characters - they were just devices to move the plot political discussion along. I wasn't supposed to see a person when I saw Staniel, I was supposed to see myself, or what could be myself. But even that might have been okay, if I hadn't felt I was being talked down to, by someone oversimplifying politics to a ridiculous degree.

Hmm, maybe I'm closer to petronivs position than I thought.

 



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Reply #46 on: October 31, 2008, 04:56:31 PM
As for your question about info-dumping, I'd agree info-dumps can sometimes be necessary. I'd start by saying a "good" info dump generally gives you just the information you need, when you need it, and at most provides a pause in the story, rather than halting the story. Even better if the information it provides gives you some insight to a character that perhaps could not be effectively delivered in another way. I think the reason I wasn't very enthused with this story, really, is that the info-dumping WAS the story. Corydon nailed it. I didn't really care about the characters - they were just devices to move the plot political discussion along.

Very good definition of when it works and when it doesn't.  In this case, I'm a bit different from you in that I wasn't completely disengaged from the characters.  Staniel was slightly interesting to me because I saw a part of me from my old college days in him.  Pepper didn't interest me at all other than the overarching question of "would he betray his contract" ... and that question was really only a one-emotional-note question.

To me, PAN was the most interesting and my engagement in his character made me appreciate the info-dumps a bit more.  In the case of a person who finds the story more about PAN than the human characters, I think the info-dumps are warranted.  In this case, they set up the expectations for what PAN is and serve to set the stage for explaining PAN's eventual temptation of both Pepper and Staniel.

The more I type this, the more interesting I find it.

I think a good corollary to your definition of when info-dumps work would be "when the information that's needed helps the reader to identify with or understand the motivations of a specific, important character."

What do you think?

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)



ajames

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Reply #47 on: November 01, 2008, 07:10:53 PM
I think a good corollary to your definition of when info-dumps work would be "when the information that's needed helps the reader to identify with or understand the motivations of a specific, important character."

What do you think?

Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)

I agree.  :)



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Reply #48 on: November 02, 2008, 06:19:50 PM
So, essentially, this story is proposing that the best way to avoid having all the power in the hand of one man/machine is to give the power to turn it off to another single man?

And yeah, I agree that this was a very thin veil of plot on a political creed. And given that I'm honestly not sure if this story is pro- or anti- democracy, I'm a bit confused as to what the political creed is. That said, it's quite clearly aimed at Americans, and I've stopped trying to understand American politics years ago, so I'm not sure whether my confusion reflects negatively on the story or not.



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Reply #49 on: November 03, 2008, 07:04:48 AM
So, essentially, this story is proposing that the best way to avoid having all the power in the hand of one man/machine is to give the power to turn it off to another single man?

And yeah, I agree that this was a very thin veil of plot on a political creed. And given that I'm honestly not sure if this story is pro- or anti- democracy, I'm a bit confused as to what the political creed is. That said, it's quite clearly aimed at Americans, and I've stopped trying to understand American politics years ago, so I'm not sure whether my confusion reflects negatively on the story or not.

Oddly, while I hate preachy stories and stories with agendas, this felt to me like it kept both to a minimum. I think it's possible to deal with political themes in fiction without crossing the line into advocacy.



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Reply #50 on: November 03, 2008, 07:28:33 AM
So, essentially, this story is proposing that the best way to avoid having all the power in the hand of one man/machine is to give the power to turn it off to another single man?

And yeah, I agree that this was a very thin veil of plot on a political creed. And given that I'm honestly not sure if this story is pro- or anti- democracy, I'm a bit confused as to what the political creed is. That said, it's quite clearly aimed at Americans, and I've stopped trying to understand American politics years ago, so I'm not sure whether my confusion reflects negatively on the story or not.

Oddly, while I hate preachy stories and stories with agendas, this felt to me like it kept both to a minimum. I think it's possible to deal with political themes in fiction without crossing the line into advocacy.

I certainly agree that it's possible. But to me, this story felt very preachy. Unfortunately, I do not know what it was preaching. So perhaps it was preaching an empty message - perhaps it did indeed keep the agenda to a minimum, while making meaningless political speeches. If that is the case - if it's not just that I failed to get the message, but that there really isn't one - I don't think it's a point in this story's favor.



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Reply #51 on: November 03, 2008, 07:44:52 AM
Good story. I agree there is a human tendency to hand over responsibility to the image of the perfect leader.

The thing is, the efficiency of authoritarian governments (offered by Pan) is often overrated, whether it be waging an effective war effort or providing citizens with essential goods and services. Hitler may have gotten the trains to run on time, but Nazi Germany was also putting out planes with nobody to fly them. Pan's micro-world might run into many problems in the long run (i.e. next months).

The group I help run was deliberately set up with a constitution, bylaws and an elected board of directors with open meetings, instead of the fiat enjoyed by their predecessors. It makes my teeth grind when I think of just how slow things can be, how long it takes to get things decided and to coordinate actions (and that's with phones, email and our own private wiki). But I believe that in the long run this will prove more stable and adaptable and responsive to the community than a organization run on fiat.

I think the siren song of "efficiency in government" has lured a lot of technically-minded people towards authoritarian politics, forgetting that the inefficiencies of democratic government are there for a reason.



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Reply #52 on: November 03, 2008, 08:03:40 AM
Pan's psyche, a benevolent dictator built out of a society that idealized democracy, required that 'he' put himself into a situation where he could be destroyed. it seems like providing a system where discontent people could create their own society seems like a better compromise. of course, if Pan was flawed enough to harbor a deathwish it might be best that the society was rebuilt sooner rather than later.

In John Varley's Steel Beach, the Central Computer than runs the human civilization on the moon has a similar problem of the conflicting wishes of the people. It has to be the confidante and aid of both the abused child and the child abuser. Ultimately it collapses and "dies", or at least becomes a much more limited power.



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Reply #53 on: November 06, 2008, 12:50:44 AM
Overall it was an interesting idea, but an

For me the story reinforced my general belief that things work best in moderation.  Having everyone vote on everything from sendng delegates to what repair work to do is too much for any large group to handle (I haven't read the other stories, Anarkey, and I'm interested) there is a reason why being a politician is a full time job.  Having a single authoritarian power doesn't work either.  It's the balance - people have to be empowered to make decisions, and held accountable or given credit.

On a small tangent - I really respect the 2 term limit for president - enforcing a fresh set of eyes (well, not exactly, but you know what I mean)



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Reply #54 on: November 06, 2008, 02:16:22 AM
I wasn't all that enthused with this story at first, since I'm not much into military stuff, and alternate politics can get tedious. (Shoot, my own politics can get tedious).

After a while to reflect, I realized that PAN was basically a self canceling mistake. In a full true democracy, a cybernetic society would naturally lean, sooner or later, to giving over their franchise to bots. Which leads to the creation of PAN. Which then leads to the downfall of PAN, as he then participates in his own demise. If Stanuel hadn't pushed the button, someone was bound to soon, as PAN leads more and more rebels to him for the purpose.

Simply shutting the PAN down and returning the franchise to the people would be ineffective, as they would inevitably do the same thing and create the next PAN.

Only in the way it happened could the people be induced to find another way than what they used to have. And the events of this story were inevitable from the moment these people started their great political experiment.

What really drove PANs suicidal intent home was the timeline. It had been five days since he had taken over.



eytanz

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Reply #55 on: November 06, 2008, 08:04:36 AM
After a while to reflect, I realized that PAN was basically a self canceling mistake. In a full true democracy, a cybernetic society would naturally lean, sooner or later, to giving over their franchise to bots. Which leads to the creation of PAN. Which then leads to the downfall of PAN, as he then participates in his own demise. If Stanuel hadn't pushed the button, someone was bound to soon, as PAN leads more and more rebels to him for the purpose.

Thanks for posting this - it helped crystalize one of the problems I'm having with this story.

I feel that this story is trying to push a set of assumptions on political behavior that are entirely unmotivated. I just can't see why Pan would be a self-correcting mistake.

Pan was supposed to represent the democratic will of the community - most of them really didn't want to live in a democracy, so they didn't. But, the twist was that this was still democratic because it's really what they wanted. But, because not everyone wanted it, there had to be a way out.

But, that's not how democracy works. Democracy works by enforcing the will of the majority while protecting the rights of the minorities. In this story, it was clear that:

1 - Pan didn't protect the rights of anyone. It made things work, but it did so by instituting curfews, severly limiting people's freedom of movement. It was implied that it closed the museums and theaters. People may really harbor a secret desire that some nice leader to take decisions away from them, but an even more basic aspect of human psychology is that they don't want to be inconvenienced.

2 - Pan didn't enforce the will of the majority. It created a situation where the will of the minority (Stanuel) was enforced onto the majority. We know that Stanuel was a minority, since if he represented a majority, Pan would never have come into play.

So, we don't have a democracy here. We have a society that apparently is based on pleasing everyone at once. That's already stupid. But I agree that this society would become disfunctional and probably end up as a self-destructive dictatorship sooner or later.

Quote
What really drove PANs suicidal intent home was the timeline. It had been five days since he had taken over.

Which again made no sense. Five days is not enough time for a Stanuel to rise out of a population. Pan is an AI, maybe it calculates things quickly, but it takes longer to move people from apathy to political activism, let alone political exteremism.

So yeah, I don't buy it. And I also don't buy - though unlike in the things I list above, in this case I don't think the story is being stupid, just wrong - the premise that democracy is powerful enough to be self-correcting, that abberations like Pan will eliminate themselves. That's a dangerous, dangerous message. Democracy has shown itself through the years to be a fragile thing, one that must be maintained with care. Teaching people that if they allow themselves to lose their ability to choose, it's ok, because someone will come and give it back to them in five days - that's a really bad lesson to teach.



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Reply #56 on: November 06, 2008, 12:32:19 PM
Interesting points, eytan.  I'm not sure I agree with all your assumptions (e.g. that democracy necessarily protects the rights of minorities; as I look at history, that seems like an added option, not something that's factory standard).  But I do basically agree with your main points, and was troubled by some of the same details that bothered you.  In particular, I was dumbfounded to learn that Stanuel had become radicalized and willing to take up arms in five days.  That just didn't make a lot of sense to me.

My take on the story is a little different: it presents a false choice between a "technodemocracy" (whatever that is) in which everybody votes on everything and a dictatorship, in which only one entity has a say.  But of course real democracies don't work like that: in the real world, decision making is made by a mix of popular referenda, elected officials, and an appointed bureaucracy.  Which does work pretty well, and makes for pretty robust, self-correcting systems.



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Reply #57 on: November 06, 2008, 04:43:55 PM
Does the story ever explain why this all took place in just five days?  Was there some kind of timeframe or deadline that I missed?


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Reply #58 on: November 09, 2008, 06:22:53 AM
I had a few quibbles with this. All dictators use the propaganda that they're democratically installed. In this case, the machine probably actually believes it itself. Stanuel and Pepper's lack of skepticism about the tale and Pan's interpretation of it is disappointing.

But then again, I think there's an argument to be made that something like Pan would be better at running a complex society than any system discussed in the story. Almost certainly better than the horror of proposition-based governance they'd created, or the anarchy Stanuel chose.



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Reply #59 on: November 10, 2008, 04:25:04 PM
Not quite sure I really understood the song at the end. I liked it when the drums picked up. I'd have to read the lyrics to get the full impact, I think.

I finished the story, the outro, and the feedback some time ago, and stopped just before the song.  This morning I finally got around to listening to it. 

I needn't have bothered; the song seemed pointless and went on eight minutes longer than it needed to.  Who was it by and what was the title, again?

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Reply #60 on: November 10, 2008, 10:39:26 PM
Not quite sure I really understood the song at the end. I liked it when the drums picked up. I'd have to read the lyrics to get the full impact, I think.

I finished the story, the outro, and the feedback some time ago, and stopped just before the song.  This morning I finally got around to listening to it. 

I needn't have bothered; the song seemed pointless and went on eight minutes longer than it needed to.  Who was it by and what was the title, again?

Weirdly, I came in here specifically to say just how much I loved the song. I LOVED the song. Absolutely blown away. I found it very poetic and stirring, with a rousing melody. A little haunting. I am definitely going to look into this guy.

The song was "You Be King" by Andy Guthrie.



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Reply #61 on: November 13, 2008, 12:25:39 AM
I liked this story - made me think a little. Though I think mostly what it made me think about was the various paradoxes and subtleties that it pretty much glossed over.

For instance, this idea that you could theoretically predict people's opinions on political questions by profiling them (or that an AI could). Well, complex systems (like people's minds) just don't work like that - they are by nature unpredictable, no matter how much information you have on prior behaviour. That's what's good and bad about people - they're full of surprises!

Furthermore, because political systems are there to manage fundamentally unpredictable complex societies (and eco-systems), there's never going to be a way of assessing for sure what is the best set of policies. That's why we have democracy: it's a trial-and-error, self-correcting, muddle-along kind of system.

The idea that the benevolent AI dictator had to create a resistance movement to be truly representative is also something that didn't seem fully explored to me. Why does this instability, this chance of revolution, have to be externalised in this way? Why can't it be an instability built-into the AI itself? It would spare a lot of unnecessary damage.

There are some interesting questions around minority-representation in democracies - eg just how much should the majority view be allowed to swamp minority-group interests? And what happens if a minority view on something is proven to be correct, and the broad consensus wrong?

Hmmm, lots of questions here, but not many definitive answers!



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Reply #62 on: November 13, 2008, 12:41:46 AM
Okay story, fine reading, but I found the story too obviously an author's monologue on democracy & voting so it just didn't work for me.

The characters are flat, the plot artificial, the central conflict contrived and the ending quite unsatisfying because it implies a) the only way to preserve a democracy is to destroy a civilization, and b) that masses of people should be punished for not following the political ideology of a few.  Both ideas are unpleasant and, in my opinion, dead wrong.  Worse, these are expressions of the author's POV rather than conclusions that arise naturally from the story and characters presented.  Next time, just write an essay and post it on an appropriate forum rather than trying to cram a lecture into a story.

I had issues with the logic of the AI ruler.  As the scenario was presented, it seems obvious that a) the 'rules' governing Pan would be updating in real time, thus its decision matrix would always reflect the will of the people (making it no different from the avatars and no different from individuals voting) and b) manual overrides would be in place for any individual who might chooses to vote.  Given these systems, the perception of the AI as a dictator seems terribly farfetched.

Another concept that didn't make sense to me was the idea that an open, universal democracy suddenly shifts to a closed dictatorship.  Even with the layers of tools and facilitators in place, anyone (or any AI) could drill down to the actual budgets, laws, votes and so forth... and see them, and vote on them, or use a well known process to modify them.  Bottom line is that the situation shown does not logically emerge from the starting conditions, again leaving the story feeling like a transparent monologue by the author.


-McToad

Nothing is impossible,
  but few things are probable.


JoeFitz

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Reply #63 on: November 13, 2008, 02:01:39 AM
So...am I truly the only person so far for whom this story was strongly reminscent of The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress?

As is usually the case for me, echoes of Heinlein result in indigestion. Suffer the poor author that calls to Heinlein and falls short, as I believe this piece does, but perhaps because it is too subtle by half.

That being said, it was a pretty good piece, and improves the more I think about it.

To me, the decision to "push the button" is too obviously an act of hubris by Stanuel. So much so, that I think it was clear that PAN knew that Stanuel would do this, if he was put in a position to do so.

In addition, the abrupt change of heart for Pepper was a result of PAN's statements that PAN was inevitable with the current system of voting. The electronic representatives would inevitably create another PAN if Pepper used the EMP in the tower. Giving the clearly-not-battle-ready Stanuel an arsenal and the EMP device with advice to storm the tower, with the option of using the EMP but destroying a lot of infrastructure (which I took to mean it would prevent electronic democracy).

I find it very interesting that PAN was not a dictator in the usual sense. PAN did not aspire to power, seize power or even want power. That it took PAN only 5 days to calculate that the solution to the apathy and stagnation was to oppress the people, foment a revolution, and arrange for an EMP device to be brought aboard and placed in the hands of someone "human enough" to use it to destroy the machines that allowed technodemocracy.

Sort of like a Thomas Jefferson GAIA hypothesis of AI.

It's an interesting twist on the off-used "intelligent machines take over" plot - the computers are place in power, realize that humans need to govern themselves and convince humans to take over.

At least it only took 5 days instead of the 7.5 millions of years it took Deep Thought to give the ultimate answer (i.e. stop waiting around for a computer to solve your problems and do something).



Corydon

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Reply #64 on: November 13, 2008, 03:57:43 AM
Say, has anybody read Isaac Asimov's short story "Franchise"?  I haven't, but the premise sounds awfully similar:

Quote
In the future, the United States has converted to an "electronic democracy" where the computer Multivac selects a single person to answer a number of questions. Multivac will then use the answers and other data to determine what the results of an election would be, avoiding the need for an actual election to be held.

You say Multivac, I say PAN...



deflective

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Reply #65 on: November 13, 2008, 03:59:50 AM
i've kinda been wondering about that. why do people say PAN?
it's not an acronym.



Bdoomed

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Reply #66 on: November 13, 2008, 05:53:26 AM
i had forgotten about this song, thanks for playing it again Steve! :)
story was great.  talk about a reason to vote, no?

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


wherethewild

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Reply #67 on: November 13, 2008, 09:45:23 AM
I haven't read through all the other comments so I'm probably repeating stuff.

Interesting, though provoking story. A tad preachy but generally it worked well for me. I really enjoyed the five days (FIVE WHOLE DAYS. OMG! LIKE, YOU GUYS, THAT'S JUST, LIKE, FOREVER!) and am glad that there was a reason a highly organised resistance movement sprang up so fast because that didn't make much sense otherwise.

I had a few issues with Pan's reasoning although I'm not sure I could explain myself well enough.... something along the lines of if he's really representing everyone then he wouldn't be repressing free speech and ignoring a particular chunk of his society. How many additional chunks will he ignore in the future? Ahh, I'm not even sure what opinion I should have right now... what exactly is a democratic dictator?

My head hurts. Damn you, EP, for making me think.

The Great N-sh whispers in my ear, and he's talking about you.


Corydon

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Reply #68 on: November 14, 2008, 06:55:35 AM
i've kinda been wondering about that. why do people say PAN?
it's not an acronym.

A good question.  Maybe because there's a tradition of capitalized fictional computer names (HAL being the grandpappy of them all), not all of which are actually acronyms.  Maybe because the uncapitalized "Pan" reminds me of the god (or something you cook with), and seems a little goofy.



csrster

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Reply #69 on: November 14, 2008, 09:43:34 AM
I found this a horribly annoying and preachy little story - if not the worst EP ever then the worst since "Pervert". The shame is that it could have been better if the author had shown the slightest intellectual curiosity in exploring the dilemma of choice between a benevolent dictator and an incompetent democracy.

SF, when it's any good, should be about challenging our preconceptions. That doesn't mean, of course, that SF should knee-jerk reject our preconceptions either; that would be absurd. "Challenging" should mean just that. SF should test our deeply-held prejudices by exposing them to the new possibilities opened up by SF's speculative freedom. This story had none of those qualities. Instead I felt Buckell just invented some cardboard characters and a dull plot he could press into the service of our familiar self-satisfied prejudice in favour of democracy. I support democracy too, but I don't need to be told that that makes me a wonderful person.



wakela

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Reply #70 on: November 21, 2008, 03:04:04 AM
worst
mercenary
ever



wintermute

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Reply #71 on: November 21, 2008, 12:47:17 PM
...into the service of our familiar self-satisfied prejudice in favour of democracy. I support democracy too, but I don't need to be told that that makes me a wonderful person.
Assassinating a democratically-elected leader is not the same as supporting democracy.

Science means that not all dreams can come true


Unblinking

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Reply #72 on: May 21, 2010, 07:17:32 PM
Didn't care for this one, enough that I stopped about 2/3 through.  Way too pedantic and preachy.

In addition, neither character was in the least bit sympathetic.  The protagonist was self-proclaimed revolutionary with no apparent provocation who lets mercs in the back door with apparently no clue what they're going to do when they get in, and who then proceeds to act as a doormat.  The merc who is apparently unstoppable (to the point that I listened) and has no real distinguishing qualities besides being an invincible merc.

The voting dilemma was interesting for a bit, though I think you'd have to be an idiot to trust a simulation to model your voting processes.  Who could possibly see that ending badly?  *raises hand*