Author Topic: EP187: Summer in Paris, Light from the Sky  (Read 60892 times)

Bdoomed

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Reply #50 on: February 11, 2009, 10:02:09 AM
If the story showed this version of Hitler as a leader, putting Hitler's inexplicable charisma to positive ends, that would be interesting, but instead all we get is a depressed wannabe painter.
I completely disagree with you here... in this story yes we see a more cowardly Hitler, but we are told off and on of his future exploits, his charisma showing through after he sparks the revolution.  Actually reminds me of Straw Dogs...

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #51 on: February 11, 2009, 10:55:58 AM
I just didn't buy this story's premise. The author removes two of the most important influences on Adolf Hitler's life, his distant, harsh father and his experiences in the trenches of WWI (I assume, as there's no mention of an analogous conflict in the story). Without that, is he really Adolf Hitler or just somebody who happened to be named Adolf Hitler? I think that if you do an alternate history story about a known historical figure, but you change details so radically that the person bears only a superficial resemblance, then it isn't really about that figure.

Well, it's not just about the father and WWI being different. The American Revolution being in the 1860s, the French Empire, all the other little details... maybe there never WAS a WWI. I didn't hear anything in the story that indicated there was one.

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Reply #52 on: February 11, 2009, 02:27:05 PM
Well, it's not just about the father and WWI being different. The American Revolution being in the 1860s, the French Empire, all the other little details... maybe there never WAS a WWI. I didn't hear anything in the story that indicated there was one.

That's one of the things about althistory ... how "alternate" is it?  This one seemed to be a bit more "alt" than Harry Turtledove's civil war/WWI series that started with How Few Remain if what you note is so (I kind of missed the detail about the date of the American Revolution.)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 09:25:19 PM by stePH »

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Reply #53 on: February 11, 2009, 07:32:29 PM
I think the idea was that with a France that was so strong England couldn't hold on to any of it's colonies and helped the Americans even more than they really did.  France probably also messed with Spain and portugal and that gives you South America. 

in that situation we would expect a large independent quebec.

I see an EU situation happening here.  Quebec is sitting there looking at everyone around them trading without paying any tariffs and says, "can I come in?" 


The American Revolution being in the 1860s,

Had to find the story in print online and check, but the time of the American Revolution was never stated.  It mentioned Lincoln avoiding a Civil War, which we remember as being 1861-1865.

Quote
Adolf remembered stories about the American Revolution. He'd studied it in school, though his textbooks said little. No one really believed that the young nation of upstarts would live beyond its cradle. But Lincoln averted civil war over slavery and assisted the Canadians in gaining their own independence. Naturally, the grateful northerners joined the Union. And shortly after, the Spanish-American conflict left the United States with an entire continent under its sway.



Ocicat

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Reply #54 on: February 11, 2009, 07:50:10 PM
Agreed! Although there was some anti-semitism feeling towards the jews, it wasn't as strong as, say, racial divisions between blacks and whites in America. I don't think any jews where murdered for just being jews pre-brown-shirt provoking. It was perhaps more like the current situation in the UK with immigrants now - a general distrust/dislike of them, and a few out and out attacks by extremist nutters on them.

Uh, plenty of Jews were killed in Europe for just being jews - going back to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and random mobs.  That was always a simmering stew pot... sometimes getting killed just because they weren't Christian, and sometimes because they had too much money (Christians weren't allowed to be bankers, so the Jews were). 

Sorry, just couldn't let that statement go unchallenged.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 09:07:36 PM by Ocicat »



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Reply #55 on: February 11, 2009, 08:15:07 PM
Agreed! Although there was some anti-semitism feeling towards the jews, it wasn't as strong as, say, racial divisions between blacks and whites in America. I don't think any jews where murdered for just being jews pre-brown-shirt provoking. It was prehaps more like the current situation in the UK with immigrants now - a general distrust/dislike of them, and a few out and out attacks by extremist nutters on them.

Uh, plenty of Jews were killed in Europe for just being jews - going back to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, .  That was always a simmering stew pot... sometimes just because they weren't Christian, and sometimes because they had too much money (Christians weren't allowed to be bankers, so the Jews were). 

Sorry, just couldn't let that statement go unchallenged.

At the same time you had killings of Muslims, Protestants, and Catholics.  You also had these groups killing their own kind for not being good enough at it.  For Millennia religion has included hating and sometimes killing people just because they don't agree with you.



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Reply #56 on: February 11, 2009, 09:57:32 PM
Agreed! Although there was some anti-semitism feeling towards the jews, it wasn't as strong as, say, racial divisions between blacks and whites in America. I don't think any jews where murdered for just being jews pre-brown-shirt provoking. It was prehaps more like the current situation in the UK with immigrants now - a general distrust/dislike of them, and a few out and out attacks by extremist nutters on them.

Uh, plenty of Jews were killed in Europe for just being jews - going back to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, .  That was always a simmering stew pot... sometimes just because they weren't Christian, and sometimes because they had too much money (Christians weren't allowed to be bankers, so the Jews were). 

Sorry, just couldn't let that statement go unchallenged.

At the same time you had killings of Muslims, Protestants, and Catholics.  You also had these groups killing their own kind for not being good enough at it.  For Millennia religion has included hating and sometimes killing people just because they don't agree with you.

I'd say more that Religion has been used as an excuse for hating and sometimes killing people just because they don't agree with you. Last time I looked most of the major religions (and the lesser ones for that matter) tend to say something along the lines of "be nice, don't kill each other and generally try and get along"... then of course you get the priesthoods.

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Reply #57 on: February 11, 2009, 09:59:13 PM
Agreed! Although there was some anti-semitism feeling towards the jews, it wasn't as strong as, say, racial divisions between blacks and whites in America. I don't think any jews where murdered for just being jews pre-brown-shirt provoking. It was prehaps more like the current situation in the UK with immigrants now - a general distrust/dislike of them, and a few out and out attacks by extremist nutters on them.

Uh, plenty of Jews were killed in Europe for just being jews - going back to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, .  That was always a simmering stew pot... sometimes just because they weren't Christian, and sometimes because they had too much money (Christians weren't allowed to be bankers, so the Jews were). 

Sorry, just couldn't let that statement go unchallenged.

At the same time you had killings of Muslims, Protestants, and Catholics.  You also had these groups killing their own kind for not being good enough at it.  For Millennia religion has included hating and sometimes killing people just because they don't agree with you.

I'd say more that Religion has been used as an excuse for hating and sometimes killing people just because they don't agree with you. Last time I looked most of the major religions (and the lesser ones for that matter) tend to say something along the lines of "be nice, don't kill each other and generally try and get along"... then of course you get the priesthoods.

yep, but the heretics are for it. according to the old testament I'm to be stoned to death outside the walls of the city.



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Reply #58 on: February 11, 2009, 11:37:31 PM
I think the idea was that with a France that was so strong England couldn't hold on to any of it's colonies and helped the Americans even more than they really did.  France probably also messed with Spain and portugal and that gives you South America. 

in that situation we would expect a large independent quebec.

I see an EU situation happening here.  Quebec is sitting there looking at everyone around them trading without paying any tariffs and says, "can I come in?" 


The American Revolution being in the 1860s,

Had to find the story in print online and check, but the time of the American Revolution was never stated.  It mentioned Lincoln avoiding a Civil War, which we remember as being 1861-1865.

Quote
Adolf remembered stories about the American Revolution. He'd studied it in school, though his textbooks said little. No one really believed that the young nation of upstarts would live beyond its cradle. But Lincoln averted civil war over slavery and assisted the Canadians in gaining their own independence. Naturally, the grateful northerners joined the Union. And shortly after, the Spanish-American conflict left the United States with an entire continent under its sway.

I don't think that this necessarily means that the American Revolution occurred in the 1860's.  Note the part, "No one really believed that the young nation of upstarts would live beyond its cradle."  Ninety-odd years is not a long time for a nation to exist if you reckon from the 1770's to the 1860's.  I see this as a European's rather truncated version of American history, really no different than an American's concept of European history.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 11:39:21 PM by Arkayanon »



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Reply #59 on: February 12, 2009, 01:14:22 AM
At the same time you had killings of Muslims, Protestants, and Catholics.  You also had these groups killing their own kind for not being good enough at it.  For Millennia religion has included hating and sometimes killing people just because they don't agree with you.

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And everybody hates the Jews
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National Brotherhood Week, it's
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Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you
It's only for a week so have no fear
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

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Ragtime

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Reply #60 on: February 12, 2009, 03:10:55 AM
Okay, so I'm feeling like the warning in this story was a big red herring to divert attention away from its HUGE flaw, which had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that its a story about Adolph Hitler in an alternate timeline where it is never clearly delineated exactly how it diverged.

I am talking about Tesia, who managed to single-handedly hit every single problematic stereotype alive in literature today.

1.  Smurfette.  In a world with numerous characters of all sorts and nationalities and opinions and histories, Tesia was "the girl."  She was the only female in the entire story.  Hemingway believed in fomenting revolution . . . Chaplin had more interest in self-preservation but could be convinced . . . Tesia was the girl.

2.  Manic Pixie Dream Girl.  There is a loner guy expressing no outward signs of being interesting.  He is just standing there being more than twice as old as a really hot girl who runs up and kisses him and wants to be with him.  It may be a nerdy boy fantasy, but its also an old, overused trope which completely pulls me out of a story.  The 19 year old girl thought the 40+ shlumpy guy was really hot and picked him over all the other uninteresting shlumpy guys in their 40s?  Completely unbelievable.

3.  Women in Refrigerators.  In a world where Hemingway is spouting political propaganda and Chaplin is baiting gay-bashers, the only actual horror takes place when the only female in the story gets raped.  And what is the point of the rape?  Why, its not actually about it woman at all.  The point of the rape is the spur the Man (Hitler) to action!  He isn't ready to lead the revolution, but then -- after Tasia's rape -- he's ready to become a hero!

There you have it.  Woman playing role of "woman" (the only one), being attracted to an unattractive guy for no good reason, and then dying (or almost dying) as a plot device to spur the man to action. 

It seems those tropes survive in any timeline.



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Reply #61 on: February 12, 2009, 03:33:44 AM

I am talking about Tesia, who managed to single-handedly hit every single problematic stereotype alive in literature today.


Very good points, all, Ragtime



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Reply #62 on: February 12, 2009, 04:23:38 AM
Indeed, Tesia stood out as a really poor plot device.  I didn't mind the random girl kissing him at the beginning - it's Paris, the idea of random "drive-by-kissings" happening there works fine for me.  But for her to later show up and have great feelings for our hero for no reason gave me a scowl.  Would have been better if she was just the kind of girl who liked kissing people to cheer them up, and it meant nothing more to her at all.  And maybe then she could get some real character depth, and eventually become involved with the hero despite the obvious problems, for reasons deeper than "he just looked nice".



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Reply #63 on: February 12, 2009, 07:55:07 AM
I think the idea was that with a France that was so strong England couldn't hold on to any of it's colonies and helped the Americans even more than they really did.  France probably also messed with Spain and portugal and that gives you South America. 

in that situation we would expect a large independent quebec.

I see an EU situation happening here.  Quebec is sitting there looking at everyone around them trading without paying any tariffs and says, "can I come in?" 


The American Revolution being in the 1860s,

Had to find the story in print online and check, but the time of the American Revolution was never stated.  It mentioned Lincoln avoiding a Civil War, which we remember as being 1861-1865.

Quote
Adolf remembered stories about the American Revolution. He'd studied it in school, though his textbooks said little. No one really believed that the young nation of upstarts would live beyond its cradle. But Lincoln averted civil war over slavery and assisted the Canadians in gaining their own independence. Naturally, the grateful northerners joined the Union. And shortly after, the Spanish-American conflict left the United States with an entire continent under its sway.

I don't think that this necessarily means that the American Revolution occurred in the 1860's.  Note the part, "No one really believed that the young nation of upstarts would live beyond its cradle."  Ninety-odd years is not a long time for a nation to exist if you reckon from the 1770's to the 1860's.  I see this as a European's rather truncated version of American history, really no different than an American's concept of European history.

My point was that there was nothing in the story to change the time of the American Revolution.  Since the French revolution happened after the American, the American Revolution seems untouched by this story.



Russell Nash

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Reply #64 on: February 12, 2009, 08:00:21 AM
Indeed, Tesia stood out as a really poor plot device.  I didn't mind the random girl kissing him at the beginning - it's Paris, the idea of random "drive-by-kissings" happening there works fine for me.  But for her to later show up and have great feelings for our hero for no reason gave me a scowl.  Would have been better if she was just the kind of girl who liked kissing people to cheer them up, and it meant nothing more to her at all.  And maybe then she could get some real character depth, and eventually become involved with the hero despite the obvious problems, for reasons deeper than "he just looked nice".

But how many guys did she go to looking for her Sugar Daddy before she locked onto Hitler?  There was pretty of time in between for her to be hitting on a hundred different guys.  Maybe she nudged him to that restaurant knowing they wouldn't let her in.  She was playing him the whole time.



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Reply #65 on: February 12, 2009, 08:23:44 AM
Agreed! Although there was some anti-semitism feeling towards the jews, it wasn't as strong as, say, racial divisions between blacks and whites in America. I don't think any jews where murdered for just being jews pre-brown-shirt provoking. It was perhaps more like the current situation in the UK with immigrants now - a general distrust/dislike of them, and a few out and out attacks by extremist nutters on them.

Uh, plenty of Jews were killed in Europe for just being jews - going back to the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and random mobs.  That was always a simmering stew pot... sometimes getting killed just because they weren't Christian, and sometimes because they had too much money (Christians weren't allowed to be bankers, so the Jews were). 

Sorry, just couldn't let that statement go unchallenged.

Ok, I wasn't accurate in my wording. In the run up to WWI or WWII.



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Reply #66 on: February 12, 2009, 08:55:42 AM
I am talking about Tesia, who managed to single-handedly hit every single problematic stereotype alive in literature today.

I agree completely.



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Reply #67 on: February 12, 2009, 11:08:22 AM
I think the idea was that with a France that was so strong England couldn't hold on to any of it's colonies and helped the Americans even more than they really did.  France probably also messed with Spain and portugal and that gives you South America. 

in that situation we would expect a large independent quebec.

I see an EU situation happening here.  Quebec is sitting there looking at everyone around them trading without paying any tariffs and says, "can I come in?" 


The American Revolution being in the 1860s,

Had to find the story in print online and check, but the time of the American Revolution was never stated.  It mentioned Lincoln avoiding a Civil War, which we remember as being 1861-1865.

Quote
Adolf remembered stories about the American Revolution. He'd studied it in school, though his textbooks said little. No one really believed that the young nation of upstarts would live beyond its cradle. But Lincoln averted civil war over slavery and assisted the Canadians in gaining their own independence. Naturally, the grateful northerners joined the Union. And shortly after, the Spanish-American conflict left the United States with an entire continent under its sway.

I don't think that this necessarily means that the American Revolution occurred in the 1860's.  Note the part, "No one really believed that the young nation of upstarts would live beyond its cradle."  Ninety-odd years is not a long time for a nation to exist if you reckon from the 1770's to the 1860's.  I see this as a European's rather truncated version of American history, really no different than an American's concept of European history.

I was going on the assumption that if the date wasn't given, it was probably unchanged.

Here's the thing: compared to most of Europe, America is STILL young. (Except for the former Yugoslavian countries, and Czech/Slovakia.) That's what I learned in my Poli Sci classes in college. So going with that worldview, even 90 years is still a young nation.

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Reply #68 on: February 12, 2009, 02:16:14 PM
But how many guys did she go to looking for her Sugar Daddy before she locked onto Hitler?  There was pretty of time in between for her to be hitting on a hundred different guys.  Maybe she nudged him to that restaurant knowing they wouldn't let her in.  She was playing him the whole time.

I'm assuming this is intended sarcastically, as I'm sure that most attractive, fun 19 year olds looking for Sugar Daddies latch on to old, untalented poverty-stricken foreign painters, as soon as they run out of their first choice -- unemployed-30-something-D&D-players-still-living-in-their-parents'-basement.

In a story full of characters, it became clear very early that she was not there to grow and develop, but only to move the plot along.

-----

"Why don't you take it off?" he asked her.

"I don't know," she said, standing on the doorstep of a run-down hotel. "Maybe because I'm only a plot device, and if I remove the patch, I won't be able to get raped, which is what I need to do to move the story forward."



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Reply #69 on: February 12, 2009, 03:06:10 PM
But how many guys did she go to looking for her Sugar Daddy before she locked onto Hitler?  There was pretty of time in between for her to be hitting on a hundred different guys.  Maybe she nudged him to that restaurant knowing they wouldn't let her in.  She was playing him the whole time.

I'm assuming this is intended sarcastically, as I'm sure that most attractive, fun 19 year olds looking for Sugar Daddies latch on to old, untalented poverty-stricken foreign painters, as soon as they run out of their first choice -- unemployed-30-something-D&D-players-still-living-in-their-parents'-basement.

In a story full of characters, it became clear very early that she was not there to grow and develop, but only to move the plot along.

-----

"Why don't you take it off?" he asked her.

"I don't know," she said, standing on the doorstep of a run-down hotel. "Maybe because I'm only a plot device, and if I remove the patch, I won't be able to get raped, which is what I need to do to move the story forward."

Because she was a Jew the better guys were out of reach.

As far as why she didn't take off the patch (or was it armband), why didn't they take off the yellow star or the pink triangle in our Germany?



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Reply #70 on: February 12, 2009, 05:00:39 PM
But how many guys did she go to looking for her Sugar Daddy before she locked onto Hitler?  There was pretty of time in between for her to be hitting on a hundred different guys.  Maybe she nudged him to that restaurant knowing they wouldn't let her in.  She was playing him the whole time.

I'm assuming this is intended sarcastically, as I'm sure that most attractive, fun 19 year olds looking for Sugar Daddies latch on to old, untalented poverty-stricken foreign painters, as soon as they run out of their first choice -- unemployed-30-something-D&D-players-still-living-in-their-parents'-basement.

In a story full of characters, it became clear very early that she was not there to grow and develop, but only to move the plot along.

-----

"Why don't you take it off?" he asked her.

"I don't know," she said, standing on the doorstep of a run-down hotel. "Maybe because I'm only a plot device, and if I remove the patch, I won't be able to get raped, which is what I need to do to move the story forward."

Because she was a Jew the better guys were out of reach.

As far as why she didn't take off the patch (or was it armband), why didn't they take off the yellow star or the pink triangle in our Germany?

In general, I'm thinking its putting too many rabbits into too many hats to think that she is plotting that an unemployed painter will (a) take care of her? . . . (b) join the cause for Jewish freedom?  She is not "playing him."  We don't really have any facts about her to know what her internal motivations are.  You might as well say that she planned her own rape when she knew he'd be walking by.

In our Germany, there was enforced pressure to wear the Jew-symbols because it was an integrated society, where everyone knew who the Jews were anyway.  If I'm not wearing my armband, the Gentile down the street will know it because we grew up together and he knows I'm Jewish.

The same logic is not applicable to new immigrants from Poland, especially ones who don't appear to have Jewish names (Tesia?) and don't "look Jewish."  It is certainly reasonable to assume she is wearing the armband because its the law, and she isn't expecting to get rounded up and raped because of it. 

But this is an example of free-floating time line problems, more than gender problems.  We don't know how people will act because we don't know how the time lines diverge.  Did Jews have to wear armbands in Poland, too?  Jews were generally protected from the government in the Soviet Union (based on their ethnic Jewishness -- the were often persecuted for other reasons, of course).  Is there something more anti-Jewish about this time line's Russian revolution?  Without knowing what is consistent and what is not, we can only speculate.

Putting everything else aside, though, there is certainly nothing in the text that would lead us to believe that Tesia feels like she's settling based on a lack of better options.



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Reply #71 on: February 12, 2009, 05:10:58 PM

 Tesia, who managed to single-handedly hit every single problematic stereotype alive in literature today.

1.  Smurfette.  In a world with numerous characters of all sorts and nationalities and opinions and histories, Tesia was "the girl."  She was the only female in the entire story.  Hemingway believed in fomenting revolution . . . Chaplin had more interest in self-preservation but could be convinced . . . Tesia was the girl.

2.  Manic Pixie Dream Girl.  There is a loner guy expressing no outward signs of being interesting.  He is just standing there being more than twice as old as a really hot girl who runs up and kisses him and wants to be with him.  It may be a nerdy boy fantasy, but its also an old, overused trope which completely pulls me out of a story.  The 19 year old girl thought the 40+ shlumpy guy was really hot and picked him over all the other uninteresting shlumpy guys in their 40s?  Completely unbelievable.

3.  Women in Refrigerators.  In a world where Hemingway is spouting political propaganda and Chaplin is baiting gay-bashers, the only actual horror takes place when the only female in the story gets raped.  And what is the point of the rape?  Why, its not actually about it woman at all.  The point of the rape is the spur the Man (Hitler) to action!  He isn't ready to lead the revolution, but then -- after Tasia's rape -- he's ready to become a hero!

There you have it.  Woman playing role of "woman" (the only one), being attracted to an unattractive guy for no good reason, and then dying (or almost dying) as a plot device to spur the man to action. 


All such good points that I no longer enjoy the story. If I hadn't liked Edward Bear I'd be down on Scholes. But I probably didn't notice it at first because so many stories are like that. Even Star Wars where Leia seems only to be there to be plucky and get rescued.  McGuffin.

Now this story reminds me of pictures of certain parts of the world where in every shot there are a hundred guys but never even one woman. Which tells me all I need to know about those parts of the world.




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Reply #72 on: February 12, 2009, 05:15:18 PM
[snip back and forth about the woman's intentions]

I was never saying she was definitely looking for a sugar daddy, but that she had the time to do it while she wasn't with him.  Also Hitler wasn't a "poverty-stricken painter".  He was someone living off an inheritance who planned on going home and getting a comfortable government job.  Since the persecution would most likely be worst in the capital, maybe she decided coming there was a mistake and a foreigner would be more attractive.

Also in our Europe the Jews were consistently singled out based on appearance and forms of dress, not just by neighbors pointing them out.

All of that being said, the story didn't give us any reason to think she was this clever.



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Reply #73 on: February 12, 2009, 07:41:34 PM
All such good points that I no longer enjoy the story. If I hadn't liked Edward Bear I'd be down on Scholes. But I probably didn't notice it at first because so many stories are like that. Even Star Wars where Leia seems only to be there to be plucky and get rescued.  McGuffin.

Now this story reminds me of pictures of certain parts of the world where in every shot there are a hundred guys but never even one woman. Which tells me all I need to know about those parts of the world.

Well, I certainly don't want you to stop enjoying something that was otherwise enjoyable!  Personally, I WANTED to dislike the story for other reasons -- lack of clarity in the time line, insufficient attention to the "nature" half of the nature/nurture line, Hitler Hitler Hitler, etc. -- back the fact is that I couldn't actually get to the point where I could clarify my thoughts on those matters in my own mind.

Every time I stop to think about them, I get hit between the eyes with "THE SOLE FEMALE CHARACTER WAS UNDEVELOPED, LACKED COHERENT MOTIVATION, AND WAS RAPED AS A PLOT DEVICE FOR A MAN" -- which is a lot like having one of the Harrison Bergeron implants going off in your head every few seconds, and makes you lose your train of thought.

So, I didn't actually get to dislike the story for the reasons I would have liked to, which is even more disappointing than not liking the story to begin with.



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Reply #74 on: February 12, 2009, 07:45:45 PM
If the genders had all been switched, would you have focused on the sole man in a similar manner?

It seems to me you're implying the story is mysogynist, and I couldn't disagree more. To my mind, its irrelevant that there's only one half-assed female character.