Author Topic: EP187: Summer in Paris, Light from the Sky  (Read 60857 times)

Ragtime

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Reply #75 on: February 12, 2009, 08:41:16 PM
If the genders had all been switched, would you have focused on the sole man in a similar manner?

It would just be weird, because reversed it is not a tired, overused trope, so no writer would fall into that mistake unthinkingly.  They'd have to be aware of what they were doing, and then wouldn't do it.

Do you get offended by all those racist drawings of Caucasians with big lips eating watermelons?  I mean, I guess I would if I saw one, but there just aren't any.  Just like there aren't any Manic Pixie Dream Boys, or all female casts with just one underdeveloped male character.



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Reply #76 on: February 12, 2009, 09:23:36 PM
If the genders had all been switched, would you have focused on the sole man in a similar manner?

It would just be weird, because reversed it is not a tired, overused trope, so no writer would fall into that mistake unthinkingly.  They'd have to be aware of what they were doing, and then wouldn't do it.

Do you get offended by all those racist drawings of Caucasians with big lips eating watermelons?  I mean, I guess I would if I saw one, but there just aren't any.  Just like there aren't any Manic Pixie Dream Boys, or all female casts with just one underdeveloped male character.

That's not comperable. The only reason such drawings are made are to be racist. in the story, its just a plot device, pure and simple. It's not a story about men and women, its the story of one man in particular and how events have affected him. The woman being attacked thing may be an overrused plot device but I think its still valid for all that.

I'm betting I could find examples of  all-female casts with scant underdeveloped male characters if I looked around. :)



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Reply #77 on: February 12, 2009, 09:30:35 PM
I'm betting I could find examples of  all-female casts with scant underdeveloped male characters if I looked around. :)


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Reply #78 on: February 12, 2009, 09:54:25 PM
the points in your original post are absolutely true, Ragtime. i've already talked about the gender thing way too much on these boards so it isn't something that i'll bring up anymore.

that said, it doesn't bug me so much on escape pod. as you just pointed out: it's the constant repetition of a trope that reinforces it. ep does a respectable job of spreading out the stories so you don't get the same thing showing up too much and when a trope is used it's almost never the focus of the story. that and a reasonable amount of balance (a negative female trope in one story will often be matched by a negative male one in another) means that i'll cut individual stories a lot of slack.



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Reply #79 on: February 12, 2009, 10:14:08 PM
in the story, its just a plot device, pure and simple. It's not a story about men and women, its the story of one man in particular and how events have affected him. The woman being attacked thing may be an overrused plot device but I think its still valid for all that.

As someone who agrees with Ragtime regarding the stereotyps, I don't think that the story is misogynist. But it bugs me that only woman in the story (who would imho be more important both to the story and the protagonist than e.g. Hemmingway) is mainly used as a plot device and not as an independent character.
And while I'm sure it would be possible to find stories where the suffering or death of a male is used to advance the female protagonist, I think we can agree that the opposite happens much more often.

Now there are a lot of reasons for that, from the fact that there are simply more male protagonists in Sci-Fi, to the fact that women have been forced into a more passive role for much of our history, to the fact that there are more male authors in Sci-Fi. And each of these points merits a discussion in itself.

But I do believe it is important to point out these flaws in a story because
1) they are symptoms of an underlying problem which keeps us from achieving a more equal society
2) because they are instances of lazy writing and keep an good story from beeing a better one




alllie

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Reply #80 on: February 13, 2009, 01:04:44 AM
Just like there aren't any Manic Pixie Dream Boys

Isn't that Peter Pan?



Talia

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Reply #81 on: February 13, 2009, 03:41:27 AM
ts merits a discussion in itself.

But I do believe it is important to point out these flaws in a story because
1) they are symptoms of an underlying problem which keeps us from achieving a more equal society
2) because they are instances of lazy writing and keep an good story from beeing a better one



I suppose I just dont see it as a flaw. :)



Ragtime

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Reply #82 on: February 13, 2009, 04:55:10 AM
Just like there aren't any Manic Pixie Dream Boys

Isn't that Peter Pan?

I think he was just looking for a mother substitute -- which I guess is a fine enough motivation for a pre-pubescent boy.  The only real Manic Pixie Dream Boy I could think of was in the movie Bennie and Joon.

Also, one need not conclude that an entire story is misogynistic simply because it uses several misogynistic tropes in it.  It's like if a crime carries the death sentence, you're less likely to want to accuse someone of that crime.  Calling a story "racist" or "misogynistic" is like a death sentence, because if you agree with it, you are not allowed to like it anymore, so people are more likely to make excuses or minimize the offense.  I wouldn't want to paint with that big of a brush. 



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Reply #83 on: February 13, 2009, 06:05:39 AM
I just listened to EP187 yesterday and I feel rather foolish to post what seems to be a rather banal comment.  Initially I was shocked at the use of Hitler and even more so by the fact that it was republished in Israel.  Regardless, I quickly became intrigued and after listening, I would rate this EP as one of my all-time favorites.

With respect to the dream, I honestly laughed out loud in the car, exclaiming to no one in particular “It’s a trans-multiverse crossover!”  If it isn’t obvious, I had no problem whatsoever with the dream.  :)

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Reply #84 on: February 13, 2009, 10:09:32 AM
(who would imho be more important both to the story and the protagonist than e.g. Hemmingway)


The only reason I see for Hemmingway being in the story is so Hitler knows where he can easily get a gun.  We know enough about Hemmingway to find it believable that he'd be passed out with a gun in his jacket just when Hitler needs it. 



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Reply #85 on: February 13, 2009, 05:31:08 PM
(who would imho be more important both to the story and the protagonist than e.g. Hemmingway)


The only reason I see for Hemmingway being in the story is so Hitler knows where he can easily get a gun.  We know enough about Hemmingway to find it believable that he'd be passed out with a gun in his jacket just when Hitler needs it. 

As well as a metaphorical gun. Hemingway also was there to help sow some of the revolutionary seeds inside Hitler's mind.


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Reply #86 on: February 13, 2009, 06:05:13 PM
I thought this week's story was OK - not great and not awful but somewhere in between.

I like alternative history - or at least stories written in a kind of historical style. I didn't think this really was an example of alt-history (compare with EP 72 - Joe Steel which definitely was ). Alt history should be more than stories which involve historical characters in fictional settings... it should have a grand historical style as if a historian really were looking back on these events.

I also think it's a cliche to use Hitler as the primary character: Philip K Dick and a hundred other SF writers already did that before. He's such an obvious character to use and yet in this story Hitler was not Hitler - it was if he was a totally different Austrian who just happened to have the same name. Where was Hitler's mania - for most of the story he just seemed like a beatnik.

Speaking of Alt-history, I am a big fan of the stuff that Frank Key writes. Frank blends fictional and historical characters in settings which are also a mixture of fact and fantasy. His style reminds me of the best real history often to the point where I am genuinely unsure which details are truth and which are entirely plucked from his imagination.



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Reply #87 on: February 13, 2009, 07:38:33 PM
I like alternative history - or at least stories written in a kind of historical style. I didn't think this really was an example of alt-history (compare with EP 72 - Joe Steel which definitely was ). Alt history should be more than stories which involve historical characters in fictional settings... it should have a grand historical style as if a historian really were looking back on these events.

I'm jumping on this one quickly. 

Quote from: wikipedia
Alternate history or alternative history is a subgenre of speculative fiction (or science fiction) and historical fiction that is set in a world in which history has diverged from the actual history of the world. Alternate history literature asks the question, "What if history had developed differently?"

This story is the definition of Alt-history.  You can say you didn't like it, or it didn't show enough scope or something.  But you can't say it doesn't show a history that is divergent from our own.  Either the French Revolution didn't happen or it was squashed.  That is different from our history.  The entire story is set in a Paris that never was.




salimfadhley

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Reply #88 on: February 15, 2009, 02:56:45 AM
<quote>
But you can't say it doesn't show a history that is divergent from our own.  Either the French Revolution didn't happen or it was squashed.
</quote>

And I didn't say that, did I? The point I was trying to make was that there should be more to alt-history than simply plucking a few famous historical characters and placing them into an a-historical setting.

Part of the joy of alt-history is to take well-known historical people and imagine how they might have acted had they lived in very different circumstances. The situation is changed but the person is essentially the person we know from history. This is why Joe Steel was such a good example of the genre: It asked what if Stalin had been born in America. How might the same destructive mentality have shaped the USA?



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Reply #89 on: February 15, 2009, 09:36:49 AM
And I didn't say that, did I? The point I was trying to make was that there should be more to alt-history than simply plucking a few famous historical characters and placing them into an a-historical setting.

What you said was:
I like alternative history - or at least stories written in a kind of historical style. I didn't think this really was an example of alt-history (compare with EP 72 - Joe Steel which definitely was ). Alt history should be more than stories which involve historical characters in fictional settings... it should have a grand historical style as if a historian really were looking back on these events.

You claimed it wasn't alt-history.  What you meant to say is, it wasn't done the way you think it should have been done.


See all of the "is it SF?" discussions to understand why this differentiation is being made.



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Reply #90 on: February 15, 2009, 05:28:14 PM
This story was a great brain teaser for me. A very nice telling of how history could be very different, if only.... Or could be very the same, only with different people doing the same aweful things.

Chuck, Ernie, all the characters were great and carried the story well.
As a woman, I never really missed the women in this story. I just started thinking about the lack of women because it was posted here in this thread.
I think that if there were a lot of women in this alternative history story about the artist Adolf Hitler, he would _have_ to be gay. Don't know why, I just think it would change the color of the story.

All in all great story and very well read by Alex Wilson.

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Reply #91 on: February 15, 2009, 08:14:36 PM
Quote from: salimfadhley
Part of the joy of alt-history is to take well-known historical people and imagine how they might have acted had they lived in very different circumstances. The situation is changed but the person is essentially the person we know from history. This is why Joe Steel was such a good example of the genre: It asked what if Stalin had been born in America. How might the same destructive mentality have shaped the USA?

Actually I find Turtledove's brand of althistory to be kind of lazy.  The timelines of the books I've read still pretty much follow the history we know.  The series that begins with How Few Remain has the South winning the first American Civil War, leading to a second, soon after, but next comes the First World War (the series continues from HFR with the three volumes of "The Great War"; WWI with the sides mixed up a bit).  I haven't read into the "American Empire" series that follows "The Great War" so I can't say for certain whether this trend continues ... but "Joe Steele" pretty much paralleled the career of Russia's Stalin, only in the USA instead of the USSR.

But "Summer in Paris" appears to have had a completely different history from the one we know, only involving a few familiar names.  Yes, the plausability that those people would still exist in this alternate timeline is a stretch, but so is the notion that Stalin would have been the same in the USA as he was in Russia.

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Reply #92 on: February 15, 2009, 08:41:22 PM
A very interesting piece of alternate history.  I'm not sure that Hitler had to even be in there for the story to be as good as it was.  Of course including him, does draw you in.
I'm pretty sure it was important that it be Hitler. Right away, the author sets himself a challenge, to turn the most unlikely character into a Reluctant Hero. That's what he did with Edward Bear, and what Tolkien did by sending a pair of Hobbits into Morder. It's like a little game with the reader/listener, who then gets to see how well the author pulls it off (or doesn't). If it was a totally made-up character, it may as well have been in our universe of the Nazi Germany, and then it would be, well, boring.

As far as Charlie Chaplin goes, maybe it was something to do with the Toothbrush Moustache that he and Hitler both wore: and maybe also his characters in The Great Dictator, one of which is a parody of Hitler.
Concerning Hemingway, well, it seems like a Moveable Feast sort of thing for him to be there. I did, however, keep expecting to hear that the title of the story he wanted Hitler to write was similar to "For Whom the Bell Tolls". Just as well that it didn't happen (at least not in the Escape Pod of our universe).

I love that the French become the new Nazi's.  It goes to show the theory that any nations is susceptible to this kind of take over, I dont think the Germans are the only nation to ever fall into the trap.  Blue-coat/Brown-shirt is a nice turn around.
Yeah, they just lost the war, and therefore the opportunity to write the history. For me, the so-called headscarf ban in France came immediately to mind. Whatever the practical reasons for it may be, and never mind that it also applies to symbols of other religions, it still smacks of cultural imperialism. (As does Disney, but that's another rant.) "Common national values" and "for their own protection" vs "slippery slope" and all that.

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Planish

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Reply #93 on: February 15, 2009, 08:56:22 PM
Oh yeah - I forgot to say I quite enjoyed the story.

Actually I find Turtledove's brand of althistory to be kind of lazy.  The timelines of the books I've read still pretty much follow the history we know.
Even so, I find it it to be a fun read.
Also, "the history we know" didn't have any reptilian invaders that I recall.

Have you read his Darkness series? It's sort of an inverted kind of "alternate history". The events are the same, but the world and characters are different. Oh, and technology is replaced by magic. I should not have enjoyed it, but I did.

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Reply #94 on: February 16, 2009, 05:37:03 PM
I enjoyed the story - the reading was excellent!

I've also found alot of the postings thought provoking.

I agree with the arguement that this Hilter isn't really our Hilter.  To me, this is a nature vs nuture story - are people born evil or are they conditioned to it?  This story falls very much on the nuture side.  As such I don't see this as humanizing Hilter.  This is an interesting story about a guy with a familiar name.

Of course, this allowed the author a couple of tongue-in-cheek-inside-jokes type lines "I'm Polish" "Oh we're neighbours" and the odd dream/vision of the mulitverse. 

The story further pushes the nuture/right-time-and-place idea in that Adolf wanted nothing more than to paint, and then a singular event forces him down a path he reluctantly accepts.  I may have my historical figures mixed up, but I'm pretty sure the Hitler of this world had somethig of a megomanical complex, as opposed to the humbleness and modesty of the story version.  Personally, I get worried about people who think they have a "mission" in life.

As for the lack of characterization of Tesia - yup, it's a common problem with shorter stories.  I agree with the others - everyone had a pretty minor definition.  Chaplin, Degaulle (sp?), and even Hemingway were quite 2 dimensional.  They only didn't seem to be because we filled in the gaps with our memories.  I also had suspend some disbelief with bungie cord that these famous nobodies would all be together, but hey it was still good.

What I really enjoyed about the story was the documentary-style/personal perspective back and forth.  The reader did a good job of distinguishing between them.  I think they added a sense of weight to the story as well.

As for the publication in Israel buying the story - makes sense to me in an "ever-vigilent" kind of way.  A reminder that anyone could become the next Hitler.



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Reply #95 on: February 20, 2009, 08:38:06 AM
but then i remembered how happy i was to get a new escape pod and couldn't stop smiling. =)

Perfect summary for me.



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Reply #96 on: February 20, 2009, 08:51:09 AM
Also wondering what was up with Steve's recording setup this week.  First time I can remember the guy not sounding pristine.  Bet there's a funny story...

Steve:  "Yah, about that.  So, I was on a small passenger plane to Djibouti when the pilot announced in a panicked voice 'please fasten your safety belts and return your tray tables to their upright positions IMMEDIATELY...we're going down..."



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Reply #97 on: February 20, 2009, 02:22:03 PM
I liked this story so much that I had to register for the forums. Granted, I've only been listening to EP for about a year but this is one of the best stories I've heard. Thought provoking, exciting, well written and well read (except for the polyphonic special effects). A new favorite that I will definitely share with friends. Glad to see the podcast make a strong comeback.



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Reply #98 on: February 20, 2009, 04:11:41 PM
Also wondering what was up with Steve's recording setup this week.  First time I can remember the guy not sounding pristine.  Bet there's a funny story...

I can handle it if it's an intro or outro; Rachel had the same issue with Dragon Hunt. But if it's the whole story, then I get cranky.

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Reply #99 on: February 20, 2009, 05:30:28 PM
Also wondering what was up with Steve's recording setup this week.  First time I can remember the guy not sounding pristine.  Bet there's a funny story...

I can handle it if it's an intro or outro; Rachel had the same issue with Dragon Hunt. But if it's the whole story, then I get cranky.

I didn't notice it with Dragon Hunt, but with this one, I thought Steve just had a cold.