Escape Artists
August 18, 2018, 06:56:26 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: EP198: N-words  (Read 18367 times)
Russell Nash
Guest
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2009, 03:40:39 AM »

I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!


I imagine i got really old, really fast.
Logged
Zathras
Guest
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2009, 06:02:58 AM »

I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!


I imagine i got really old, really fast.

Why yes, yes you did.
Logged
Russell Nash
Guest
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2009, 07:03:55 AM »

I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!


I imagine i got really old, really fast.

Why yes, yes you did.

Damn it!

It got old.

Damn it!
Logged
Anarkey
Meen Pie
Hipparch
******
Posts: 703


...depends a good deal on where you want to get to


WWW
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2009, 08:16:08 AM »

And just to be clear, I was talking about political change, not some personal revelation individual type change. 

Also dubious, by the way, on the amount of political change creatable by dialogue, something you apparently take as a given. 

I think that's where we're not communicating, since I (maybe naively, but who knows?) don't think the two can be separated.  Politics come from the opinions we form individually, so those personal changes are important to the political process.   

Yes.  We're using completely different versions of the word "politics".  While I have no problem acknowledging that the personal is political, I certainly don't think the two are equivalent or interchangeable.  My operating definition of politics, FWIW, includes systems under which people have no vote (and plenty of those exist), making a lot of your talk about process seem, not naive, but ...privileged?  Like you don't have to think about the possibility of politics that's externally imposed on you because wheee dialog and voting and aren't we all wonderful?  I don't think politics in non-Western European/non-North American countries usually works the way you're describing.  I think the word politics applies to governing systems of all nations, and using a definition that so obviously excludes a huge chunk of the world is a mistake.  But, ehhh, I'm ok with your definition for the purposes of this conversation...it's just not the same one I'm using.

However, I'll note that you (and others) are angry at this story for implying that race relations in this country are so simple (though, personally, I don't believe the story implied that) and not big and complicated the way they are in the real, external world and so on and so forth but then you've turned around and used a definition of politics that's very basic and doesn't encompass the complex nature of geopolitics, and in fact, looks only to the (so-called) first world as its operating basis and generalizes from there.

 And that change doesn't always mean a "revelation" or a massive upheaval, you're the one presuming that. 

Actually, no.  And this conversation will go better if you quit presuming what I presume (this is not the first time, but I've been letting them slide).  I was presuming any change at all to be unlikely.  It's my opinion that most dialog (and stories) do not change a static condition.  I don't preclude that change is possible, however incremental, I just believe it to be extremely unlikely.  I don't believe, for example, that my telling you your view of politics is way too zeroed in on the US will change your view of politics.  At all.  Not even a smidge.  And at the risk of sounding all confirmation biasy, I have had hundreds of conversations just like this one and probably only a half dozen ever changed anyone, and most of those were with kids.  This force of inertia is the process that causes the creation of stuff like the race bingo card.  The change doesn't happen, and every encounter is a square one encounter and most of the time people walk away with zero idea of what the big deal is about and zero change.  Which is totally exhausting.  Though perhaps not futile.

And I suspect this is something we'll just disagree on, but I don't know if you can write about a big touchy issue as explicitly as this story does, with the story so clearly sending a message, without being both art AND very political on that individual level, and letting the politics be just as important as the quality of the art.  The politics eclipse the art by the nature of what's being done.  A subtler metaphor such as in "I'll Gnaw Your Bones"?  Sure, story can be story first there.  But to me, "N-words" set itself up to Teach with a capital T, and if that's what it wants to do it can't be art first anymore, it's confined by its message.  I hope I'm making sense. Smiley 

Yes.  We disagree on this.  We have to, because I don't see this story as being strident and teachy the way you do.  I see it as blatantly about race, but I'll not grant that it so clearly sends a message, because you and I have not been able to agree on what that message is...so it can't be all that clear.  And your basis for your interpretation is all about what the author intends (to teach, or to send a message) which I can't grant, even if my interpretation is wrong, because it implies you're a mind reader.  And I don't think you are.  I'll note that while I preferred "I'll Gnaw Your Bones" on almost every level, if you go look in the discussion thread for that story, most of the listeners did not think it was a story about race.  To me it clearly, undeniably, obviously was, but that's not the takeaway most people walked away with.  At least in this story, no one is wondering or debating whether the story is about race.  People are mad that it's about race, people are offended, people are bored, people are skirting right up to the line of telling the author he had no business writing this story, but no one is like "Oh really? Race? I didn't see it."  I think we need the more blatant stories, too.  I'm glad Kosmatka wrote it.  I'm glad EP ran it.
Logged

Winner Nash's 1000th member betting pool + Thaurismunths' Free Rice Contest!
LadyIndigo
Palmer
**
Posts: 22


« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2009, 12:08:40 PM »

I think the word politics applies to governing systems of all nations, and using a definition that so obviously excludes a huge chunk of the world is a mistake.  But, ehhh, I'm ok with your definition for the purposes of this conversation...it's just not the same one I'm using.

However, I'll note that you (and others) are angry at this story for implying that race relations in this country are so simple (though, personally, I don't believe the story implied that) and not big and complicated the way they are in the real, external world and so on and so forth but then you've turned around and used a definition of politics that's very basic and doesn't encompass the complex nature of geopolitics, and in fact, looks only to the (so-called) first world as its operating basis and generalizes from there.

That absolutely is notable, and I appreciate you correcting me on it.  I'm certainly not above privileged thinking (no people of privilege are), even as I want to talk about and address it.  When I talk about transformative conversations about race, I'm thinking the West and civil rights and democratic process, yes - I didn't think consciously about that, but it's what I was doing.  I don't have any other knowledge base to work from.  (Racial landscapes in particular are different all over, Haiti and the Dominican Republic for example.)  I also don't see personal politics/ideals as equivalent or interchangeable with Western lawmaking, more that they are integral in shaping each other.  As far as more universal, worldwide political landscapes and the place in stories of ANY topic on a worldwide scale, I've done no reading on the subject yet to give an opinion.  There are far too many complexities there, as you said.

Actually, no.  And this conversation will go better if you quit presuming what I presume (this is not the first time, but I've been letting them slide).
 

I'm responding to what I read in your words, but misunderstandings happen.  I should have qualified that it was what you SEEMED to be presuming, but I don't see why we have to worry about whether this conversation "goes better" when we're being respectful (I hope I am, anyway, and apologize if I'm not), I have no emnity towards you at all, and I feel like we're both saying useful things.  (Even if everyone making Wookie jokes is probably tired of my pretentious ass right now. Smiley )

Quote from: Anarkey link=topic=2597.msg47560#msg47560 date=1244726168I
I was presuming any change at all to be unlikely.  It's my opinion that most dialog (and stories) do not change a static condition.  I don't preclude that change is possible, however incremental, I just believe it to be extremely unlikely.  I don't believe, for example, that my telling you your view of politics is way too zeroed in on the US will change your view of politics.  At all.  Not even a smidge.  And at the risk of sounding all confirmation biasy, I have had hundreds of conversations just like this one and probably only a half dozen ever changed anyone, and most of those were with kids.  This force of inertia is the process that causes the creation of stuff like the race bingo card.  The change doesn't happen, and every encounter is a square one encounter and most of the time people walk away with zero idea of what the big deal is about and zero change.  Which is totally exhausting.  Though perhaps not futile.

And yet I acknowledged your comments and looked at the angle from which I approach politics and why, and although I am trying to justify myself somewhat I also plan to remmeber myself for the future.  I don't think I'm in any way special or smart for that, just open on this particular subject.  Will I make the mistake again?  Probably.  Will I remember this and use it to avoid the mistake as often as possible until it's worked out of my personal baggage?  I hope so.  I agree it's zilch without effort, and the race bingo card is coming from people who are more concerned with being smug or "right" than having a discussion.  But I don't think those people are transformed by a protest rally or a democratic process either.  The personal experiences that those changes in law create?  Yes, but not always. 

I learned my small vocabulary of anti-racism theory through a cultural competency class on the road to being a social worker, K. Tempest Bradford's blog The Angry Black Woman, and a lot of discussion caused by whitewashed movie casting for Avatar the Last Airbender, as well as posts that popped up and were passed on throughout the blogosphere.  Among the tools that helped were diagrams, comic strips, and personal anecdotes.  I'd say those all have elements of story in varying ways.  But certainly change of my way of thinking emerged over a few years, though by no means a complete or perfect change (and I have no idea how well I'm putting it into practice). 

And your basis for your interpretation is all about what the author intends (to teach, or to send a message) which I can't grant, even if my interpretation is wrong, because it implies you're a mind reader.  And I don't think you are.

I'm not.  But I think readers have a right to comment on possible intent as long as they're open to the possibility they may be wrong.  Otherwise what's the point?  Should the author come and explain some other meaning or mechanism to the story - and he's in no way obligated to - then my opinion may well change.  But it'd change to whether his intent was executed well, and the unintentional message he sent instead, and how in my opinion (for what that's worth) he could have executed his intentions better or worse.

I'll note that while I preferred "I'll Gnaw Your Bones" on almost every level, if you go look in the discussion thread for that story, most of the listeners did not think it was a story about race.  To me it clearly, undeniably, obviously was, but that's not the takeaway most people walked away with.  At least in this story, no one is wondering or debating whether the story is about race.  People are mad that it's about race, people are offended, people are bored, people are skirting right up to the line of telling the author he had no business writing this story, but no one is like "Oh really? Race? I didn't see it."  I think we need the more blatant stories, too.  I'm glad Kosmatka wrote it.  I'm glad EP ran it.

You could interpret a few things in "I'll Gnaw Your Bones," which I loved, and I was surprised that people seemed to find NO meaning in it when I could see race and eugenics (although problematic in that POC = nonhuman way I talked about earlier) or animal rights in equal stretches.  Maybe even an intent to invoke both.  But I disagree that we need a blatant story because no one saw the racial elements in a subtler one.  Not when the blatant story isn't any good.  But I'd never say Kosmatka shouldn't write about race, even if I think he did poorly at it, because first of all no one is going to agree on how to have this conversation, including people of color.  Second, like I said, you don't know the best way to write about a big issue right away, if ever.  You learn.  I certainly wouldn't have a snowball's chance of getting it all "right" either. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 03:42:14 PM by LadyIndigo » Logged
Portrait in Flesh
Hipparch
******
Posts: 1120


NO KILL I


« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2009, 06:38:08 PM »

I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!


I imagine i got really old, really fast.

Why yes, yes you did.

Damn it!

It got old.

Damn it!

Sheesh, you kids today.   Tongue

My Disney experience definitely left some scarring.  It goes far beyond just seeing characters walk around backstage without their heads.  ::shudders::
Logged

"Boys from the city.  Not yet caught by the whirlwind of Progress.  Feed soda pop to the thirsty pigs." --The Beast of Yucca Flats
stePH
Actually has enough cowbell.
Hipparch
******
Posts: 3906


Cool story, bro!


WWW
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2009, 10:33:50 AM »

Anarky is using the fact that the SF community is overwhelmingly white to make assumptions about our forums.  About half of our posters have said (or posted pictures) that they are white.  She's just assuming everyone else is too.  Just because nobody has stood up (except for stePh) and said they were a purple hermaphrodite, doesn't mean we don't have a green hermaphrodite sub-culture here. 

I don't remember having claimed to be a purple hermaphrodite.  Or purple.  Or a hermaphrodite.

I thought Zorag was the purple one.
Logged

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising
JoeFitz
Matross
****
Posts: 258



« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2009, 10:25:39 PM »

Not to come down too strongly on the pro/con side for this story, I have to say that, once again, this forum has addressed the issue(s) raised by the story far more effectively than the story, IMHO.

At the end of the day, I was disappointed because what I felt was the central theme (prejudice is bad) is flipped on its head (prejudice is justified). I can not reconcile a story that decries prejudice largely, as it turns out, because it is based on factual error. H. Sapiens ought not to be prejudiced because H.N. is, in fact, superior in all respects. And H.N. has been quietly biding his time, waiting for H.S. to push him too far. And then his uptown H.S. will slap somebody!? And the half-breed boy is angry?!
Logged
DarkKnightJRK
Peltast
***
Posts: 139


« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2009, 10:56:37 PM »

I do agree that it doesn't do that well in creating a message of "racism is bad, m'kay?" when the protagonist is prejudiced in her own way, but I wonder if that's the intent. Perhaps it's not meant to be your traditional somewhat-after-school-special ideal of overcoming prejudice, but more of the natural reactions people have when they as a minority or being friends/family of one being a victim of prejudice.

As a parable of how to beat racism, I don't think it succeeds. As a tale about human fallability, about a grieving wife who loses faith in her own social group (i.e. H. Sapians) after cruely murdering the father of her child, I think it works pretty well.
Logged
Bdoomed
Pseudopod Tiger
Moderator
*****
Posts: 4852


Mmm. Tiger.


« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2009, 06:38:27 PM »

just listened on my trip up to move back into college
had to skip another story because it didnt work well on my car speakers, this one worked okay, it was audible Tongue.
great reading, awesome story, makes me hate people even more though.  Prejudice really bothers me, whether it be racism or sexism or homophobia (is that the word?).
definately keeping this episode Smiley
Logged

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?
Unblinking
Sir Postsalot
Hipparch
******
Posts: 8660



WWW
« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2010, 12:03:12 PM »

I didn't finish this one.  Mostly it was just way too preachy and message bludgeoning, starting with the title.

It seemed to me the racism discussion was hurt more by making the other race be a non-human species than it helped.  I see what the author were trying to do, but I don't think it worked.

The reading was too labored.  I like her voice, but the dramatic pauses were just too much.

Near the beginning the story was trying way too hard to obscure itself.  For instance, as she's looking at the boy, and it says something along the lines of "it's obvious what he is" but never to bothered to tell ME what is so obvious--that was really annoying to me.  I like to sink into a POV character, and at that point it was clear that she was withholding vital information from me which breaks my immersion.

And in the end, I just want a story, not a lecture on why racism is bad.  If you can get that into a story, and have the story carry the message instead of the other way around.  The title implies to me that the message is what's intended to be the focus.  Not my cuppa.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!