Author Topic: EP198: N-words  (Read 35392 times)

deflective

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Reply #25 on: May 20, 2009, 01:25:13 AM
totally agree with you about the neanderthal women, i noticed it myself.  the author seemed enamoured with the idea of a modern woman with a caveman and the much more interesting situation of the neanderthal women was completely glossed over.  these woman are more masculine than the vast majority of modern men, what would they feel like as their brothers starting pairing off with a different race?

for the inheritance through marriage quote, i think the key word is 'social.'  it wasn't talking about genetic traits but your social standing in a racially divided culture.  i wish that the pdf was searchable so we could be sure about the wording.



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Reply #26 on: May 20, 2009, 02:27:27 AM
Quote from: yicheng
To even talk about a "superior" or "inferior" race is falling into the classic trap of racism and reverse-racism.
There was also a line that was something like "...he was both more and less than human."  I was very surprised that the author could write as story like this and still maintain that that their is a linear hierarchy of beings.

The premises of Neanderthals suddenly joining human society, how they were created, and what they were like were fascinating.  But I thought they were wasted on a tired, cliched treatment of racism.   Speaking as a white American who has lived in Japan for seven years, is married to a Japanese wife, and has two mixed kids, racism is a complicated thing.  To dismiss it as ignorant, evil, and useless is an oversimplification.  Stating these opinions will go a long way in establishing that you have the right attitude towards racism, but it doesn't go anywhere towards solving the problem.  It's like dismissing terrorists and evil monsters rather than trying to understand the complex reasons behind their actions.

David could have been a more interesting character.  I would have liked to know what it's like to live with a Neanderthal.  What's your food bill?  Do they even like to eat the same stuff?  What happens when they get drunk?  Can they drive?  Aren't some of them bastards?  Super masculine men is one thing, but what about the super masculine women? 

Regarding the reading, I liked her voice, but the pace was excruciating.  Especially for a story that makes us wait to find out what it's really about. 



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Reply #27 on: May 20, 2009, 03:10:38 AM

  Speaking as a white American who has lived in Japan for seven years, is married to a Japanese wife, and has two mixed kids, racism is a complicated thing.  To dismiss it as ignorant, evil, and useless is an oversimplification.  Stating these opinions will go a long way in establishing that you have the right attitude towards racism, but it doesn't go anywhere towards solving the problem.  It's like dismissing terrorists and evil monsters rather than trying to understand the complex reasons behind their actions.

Well said.

Regarding the reading, I liked her voice, but the pace was excruciating.  Especially for a story that makes us wait to find out what it's really about. 

Also agree.  Very pleasant voice to listen to, but at that agonizing pace, spoken at almost a whisper, I kept dozing off into daydreams about owning my very own Neanderthal.



Loz

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Reply #28 on: May 21, 2009, 08:23:39 PM
I loved Kim's reading, though maybe that was because by chance I was listening to it in a quiet room so didn't have to have the volume up full and get startled when I turn on the next thing and have my eardrums battered (yes Cory Doctorow, I'm looking at you). And, if the story had found something better to do than kill the Holy Mutant (like 'Article of Faith' only five episodes ago) then I would have liked it a lot more. Some people who campaigned against racism died peacefully, in old age, just like everyone else!

Despite that quibble I enjoyed the rest of the story, the descriptions and the development (though am I the only one creeped out by how the mother more frequently referred to 'the child' than by whatever his name was?) The downward slope towards inevitability was a problem though.



eytanz

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Reply #29 on: May 21, 2009, 08:35:11 PM
Sigh. Listening to this - this wasn't a story with an anti-racism message, it was a story aimed at people who are opposed to racism, for them to listen to and pat themselves on the back and feel good about themselves, because it shows how evil and stupid racists are and how non-evil and non-stupid racism victims are. Yay!



DKT

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Reply #30 on: May 21, 2009, 08:56:10 PM
Sigh. Listening to this - this wasn't a story with an anti-racism message, it was a story aimed at people who are opposed to racism, for them to listen to and pat themselves on the back and feel good about themselves, because it shows how evil and stupid racists are and how non-evil and non-stupid racism victims are. Yay!

Oh, thank God I was beginning to think I was the only one...

While I applaud the author for writing a story about an important issue, this one missed the mark for me. Initially, I was willing to write a lot of that off to the reading and the long pauses between sentences. I didn't mind Kim's voice and would love to hear other narrations from her but it felt off in this one. Maybe because the story took itself so seriously all the way through, maybe because the extra pauses gave me more time to analyze some of the inflection and leave me scratching my head...I dunno.

But then when the character bitchslapped the narrow-minded demonstrator at the end, I realized it wasn't just the narration that bugged me. That little moment seemed completely superflous to me. While, yes, we see the narrator has embraced violence, what's really important (in my mind) is the look in the kid's eye. And that would've been there regardless of what the mother did. Maybe even moreso if she hadn't done anything. Slapping a dude twice (while somehow managing not to incite a riot) struck me as ridiculous. And the "You're next" line at the end?

Alasdair's outro was spot-on. Racism is at best, idiotic. And it should be mocked. But this story did no mocking. Like eytanz said, it preached to the choir. "Racism is bad" is a lesson I think everyone listening regularly to this podcast acknowledges.

That said, reading all the positive feedback here reminds me how subjective storytelling is, and I'm really happy for the people who got more out of this story than I did.


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Reply #31 on: May 22, 2009, 05:14:03 PM
Sigh. Listening to this - this wasn't a story with an anti-racism message, it was a story aimed at people who are opposed to racism, for them to listen to and pat themselves on the back and feel good about themselves, because it shows how evil and stupid racists are and how non-evil and non-stupid racism victims are. Yay!

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Reply #32 on: May 22, 2009, 08:23:27 PM
I guess I'm turning into a regular softie, because yet again, I really dug this story.

Kosmatka is a smart writer. 

I hear what people are saying about the heavy handedness.  There was some of that.

I hear what people are saying about the painfully slow reading.  There was plenty of that.

I even hear what people are saying about the worldbuilding quibbles (and I sure had some of my own while listening to the story).

For treatment on race and racism I prefer "I'll gnaw your bones, the manticore said" by Cat Rambo.  That was certainly executed with more subtlety.  Though perhaps, from reading the comment thread, it was executed with too much subtlety for some.

But the things "N-words" does right outweigh the things it does wrong.  Overall, it was compelling to me.  Overall, it worked.  Not a perfect story, not my dream story, not my favorite story.  But solid, well-written, with an idea played out from the present just the way I like in my SF, and some take away thinky stuff, and some pretty writing, and some characters that weren't cardboard.  I don't feel at all as though I (or Escape Pod) is settling with this story.  It's good.  Maybe not to everyone's taste, sure, but good.

1) Where are the neanderthal women?  The story doesn't make any mention of it.  All the neanderthal men mated with human women, while the neanderthal women sat by themselves?

If I might make an answer to yicheng, on issue 1, the absence of neanderthal women: I assumed that none were made (though possibly I missed the in story evidence that suggested otherwise).  There's a throwaway line about creating an army blah blah blah, and I just assumed that if you're gonna clone something, you can pick its gender, and the bias against women in the military is still quite strong most places.  So the neanderthal women haven't been consigned to old maidenhood, because they don't exist.

Point two is a pretty fair critique, though.  The assumption that in the absence of caloric restrictions, physical strength is all it takes for one species to trump the other, is pretty shallow.  Though I'm not sure the story posits that as a certainty so much as the protag does.

3) For something written in 2008, this story expresses pretty race-centric ideas.  Paraphrasing from memory here: "When the member of one race of a superior standing marries someone from an inferior standing, the one inherits the lower social standing."  Really?  Wow!  I guess the author's never read "The Myth of Race", that shows what we label as the "races" are just artificial labels for genetic traits that were never pure to begin with.  There's plenty of archaeological evidence that neanderthals interbred with cro-magnons.  To even talk about a "superior" or "inferior" race is falling into the classic trap of racism and reverse-racism.

This is kind of a mind-boggling critique.  How does one write a story that treats race as its primary subject without being race-centric?  The title pretty much proclaims this to be a story about race.  Why would you assume the author had read (or hadn't) read this or that and is imputing that some are inferior or superior to others?  Your sample line is inner dialog, expressed by the protag, who clearly has issues and who is living with the backlash of having married outside her race.  She's speaking from direct experience.  Why you would suggest that her experience is antiquated because race is social construct is a little bewildering.  She is "falling into the trap" of racism because she's experiencing it.  That's the point.

For the people who felt that the story was all about "I am not a racist, I am so great" backpatting (which, you know, I can kind of see), I would suggest the character of the sister, as a friendly representation of a racist meant to counterbalance the screaming hordes who, without a doubt, are painted as evil, stupid, religious bigots and anti-science.    In fact, where the main character moves to hatred and violence, the racist sister steps closer to acceptance and understanding the other.  Which is a nice foil.

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eytanz

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Reply #33 on: May 23, 2009, 09:25:02 AM
For the people who felt that the story was all about "I am not a racist, I am so great" backpatting (which, you know, I can kind of see), I would suggest the character of the sister, as a friendly representation of a racist meant to counterbalance the screaming hordes who, without a doubt, are painted as evil, stupid, religious bigots and anti-science.    In fact, where the main character moves to hatred and violence, the racist sister steps closer to acceptance and understanding the other.  Which is a nice foil.

Actually, the sister is one of the worst offences as far as this story's lack of respect to its subject matter goes. She is introduced as someone who has been a racist in the past, but has come to overcome them due to a family tragedy. So far, so good. But note that there doesn't seem to be any process involved. She shows up on the doorway, contrite and ready to start a new page. And from that moment on, she is on the same page as the narrator. When she sees the boy, she doesn't recoil, or show any sign of her cultural conditioning. She shows surprise, at how she finds him beautiful. The overall message the sister offers is: "to overcome racism, all you need to do is try, and you'll find out that the racism was totally misguided to begin with".

It's not that simple. I wish it were, but it is not. As Wakela said above, the willingness to overcome racism is improtant, but it's just the first step, not a solution. This story, for all its writing skill - and it is very well written - is superficial and inane.

Quote
This is kind of a mind-boggling critique.  How does one write a story that treats race as its primary subject without being race-centric?  The title pretty much proclaims this to be a story about race.  Why would you assume the author had read (or hadn't) read this or that and is imputing that some are inferior or superior to others?  Your sample line is inner dialog, expressed by the protag, who clearly has issues and who is living with the backlash of having married outside her race.  She's speaking from direct experience.  Why you would suggest that her experience is antiquated because race is social construct is a little bewildering.  She is "falling into the trap" of racism because she's experiencing it.  That's the point.

I think you're totally missing the point here. The problem I believe that yicheng was trying to illustrate is that the story itself is highly problematic as far as racial dialogue goes. On the one hand, it is concerned with showing the evils of racism and hate, but at the same time, the entire narrative is dedicated to establishing the neanderthal as other. It - and the narrator - is not interested at all in finding common ground, but in highlighting how different the two racial groups are. "They are not like you", it says "they are better than you. And you are evil for refusing to accept that". That's no different than the racist discourse that, for example, aimed to justify slavery by making Africans (and African-Americans) to be animalistic. Just because the story's take on this is positive doesn't make it any less racist.

Now, you may argue - and maybe you are arguing - that the narrator is meant to be an example of a positively-biased racist. She certainly cannot see past the race/species of her husband - from their courtship scene on, it is clear she is interested in him not as a person, but as a neanderthal. And I think there is a very valid reading of this story where it is as critical of the narrator as it is of the protestors. But I think you can only find this reading if you look at it. If you read the positive responses in this thread, you'll see that people are taking her at face value. So, still a failure as far as being an affective anti-racism story.

This is a well-written, well constructed story. It raises a lot of interesting ideas. I don't dispute that. But its way of handling those ideas is deeply flawed and unhelpful.



thomasowenm

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Reply #34 on: May 23, 2009, 01:19:26 PM
it is concerned with showing the evils of racism and hate, but at the same time, the entire narrative is dedicated to establishing the neanderthal as other. It - and the narrator - is not interested at all in finding common ground, but in highlighting how different the two racial groups are. "They are not like you", it says "they are better than you. And you are evil for refusing to accept that".

I couldn't agree more.  It seems to me the protagonist wants Homo Sapiens to bow down and say "Massa" to the Neanderthals, and she wanted not only equal rights for the Neanderthals, but was willing to see them as superior if possible.  Not withstanding the physical and mental superiority, her failing was one which all racists fall into, as not seeing individuals as sentients.


... positively-biased racist. She certainly cannot see past the race/species of her husband - from their courtship scene on, it is clear she is interested in him not as a person, but as a neanderthal.
I  found that to be the case, not that I can't believe she was just attracted to him like most young lovers but, her relationship never seemed to go beyond a them and me mentality.  This couldn't have been better illustrated by the way she talked about her child, more of an object than her own baby.

As far as the... reading... goes... I... found... it... tedious.



Anarkey

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Reply #35 on: May 24, 2009, 01:07:59 AM
Actually, the sister is one of the worst offences as far as this story's lack of respect to its subject matter goes.

Wait, wait, wait.  Did you really just follow "all the racists are shown to be evil and that's petty and self-congratulatory" with "and the worst thing about that is the one that isn't"?  That can't be right, eh?  Say again, please.

She is introduced as someone who has been a racist in the past, but has come to overcome them due to a family tragedy. So far, so good. But note that there doesn't seem to be any process involved. She shows up on the doorway, contrite and ready to start a new page. And from that moment on, she is on the same page as the narrator. When she sees the boy, she doesn't recoil, or show any sign of her cultural conditioning. She shows surprise, at how she finds him beautiful. The overall message the sister offers is: "to overcome racism, all you need to do is try, and you'll find out that the racism was totally misguided to begin with".

Hmmm.  My takeaway on this was  completely different than yours.  Although I'll easily concede (and have already conceded, actually) that the story doesn't nuance well, I can still try to explain what I took from the sister, whom I don't believe is a magical non-racist at the end of the story, but who I do believe takes steps in that direction (which is why I said in my OP "moves toward" not "gets there") .  So frex, I notice that it's not until the graveyard that she's willing to talk about and/or touch the boy, right?  She shows up on the doorstep before the funeral and helps them get ready (the story is not specific on whether 'helping to dress' the son means touching him or fetching clothes or some other thing), but the first real touch we're told about and see isn't until they're ready to get out of the limo (when the boy is passive and asleep, btw, affording a measure of safety to someone who wishes to scrutinize).  She also calls him "the boy" which is oddly standoffish for someone referring to their nephew, as if she doesn't know his name.  I do see her struggling to overcome her bias, but I certainly *don't* see her as having shown up with it already overcome.  And actually, I took her surprise at his beauty to be *deeply* racist.  What, he's supposed to be naturally ugly?  The tropes for othering encompass two extremes, right?  Revulsion/Racism and Exoticizing/Fetishism.  Which btw, protag is exoticizing all the way, isn't she?  Problematic, to say the least.  Without getting into the mind-reading business, I think the protag is intended to be problematic.  There's a lot of clues for that, most of which have been enumerated on this thread (most of them by you, in the 'positive racist' portion of your post).  So yeah, they're definitely meant to be foils, imo, and I don't think there's any magic wand going on, for anyone.  I think there's a reason the protag isn't a Neanderthal herself.  But I digress.  We're on the sister.  She shows her ass, so to speak, when she finds it unbelievable that people would hold a hateful demonstration at a funeral.  She has no idea what it's like to be from the hated class.  She has taken her blinders off. She finally SEES: the son, the grieving sister, the hatred directed at them.  But I don't believe that's an endgame, I believe that's a first step.  An end to ignorance, maybe, but not an end to racism.  So no, I'm not getting the same overall message you are.  The plot of the story, where the pacifist 'let's all just get along' Neanderthal gets murdered might suggest an opposite overall message: it doesn't matter how hard you try to overcome racism, there's still a price, and that price is usually a bloody one.

Again, I'm not going to say there wasn't blunt applications of concepts, because I agree that there was.  But if you think the story says the sister was magic-wanded into a happy Neanderthal lover you heard a completely different story than I did.  Which happens, because people bring their own junk to the story and it's all through a lens and relative.

I think you're totally missing the point here. The problem I believe that yicheng was trying to illustrate is that the story itself is highly problematic as far as racial dialogue goes. On the one hand, it is concerned with showing the evils of racism and hate, but at the same time, the entire narrative is dedicated to establishing the neanderthal as other. It - and the narrator - is not interested at all in finding common ground, but in highlighting how different the two racial groups are. "They are not like you", it says "they are better than you. And you are evil for refusing to accept that". That's no different than the racist discourse that, for example, aimed to justify slavery by making Africans (and African-Americans) to be animalistic. Just because the story's take on this is positive doesn't make it any less racist.

Yeah, I think it's kind of interesting that the author took the whole idea of the other one step further.  Ok, so races are made up, a social construct, as yicheng indicated, though there was plenty of fabricated science to support the position that race was real and enable lots of racist bullshit in the past.  So IMO the story plays what-if.  What-if the science stuff, that these beings are actually separate species, was real?  Would that make a difference in the dialog?  In the action/reaction/social fallout?  In the possibility of integration?  Revolution?  Social equality?  Could things play out differently?  It's possible this take, where the differences are real and measurable, muddies the waters of the story's applicability to the idea of race in our own world, which we know is not supported by scientific data, not real, and just a means of social control and oppression.  But the question is an interesting one (and I think, one of the shiny sf bits that author would very reluctantly have parted with -- though that's speculation on my part, of course).  Does it make a difference if the other is truly other or we're just pretending it is? 

Now, you may argue - and maybe you are arguing - that the narrator is meant to be an example of a positively-biased racist.

Yeah, I am.  See above.  :)

So, still a failure as far as being an affective anti-racism story.

This is a well-written, well constructed story. It raises a lot of interesting ideas. I don't dispute that. But its way of handling those ideas is deeply flawed and unhelpful.

I'm curious as to what would be a helpful way to handle an idea such as racism in a story.  It strikes me as a strange assertion, to demand or hope or expect that stories be helpful.  Helpful to what?  To whom?  How would a story be an effective anti-racism story?  Can you show me an example? 

One of the things I think this story is doing, or trying to do (and in some places it fails, worldbuildy places mostly) is to compress the history of racism.  To sort of have all the different things going on at once.  So the narrator, she might represent a sixties style integrationist, right?  And then, side by side, simultaneously, we're getting the political PC stuff with the constantly changing census/application forms, the view of the Neanderthals as the objects of scientific experiment, and the extreme Klan stuff,  and the "Turner Diary" style declaration of all out race war by the narrator, and the enforced quota bits, and everything else, except instead of happening over hundreds of years it's happening over one generation.  Which was another shiny thing that completely held my attention.

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Planish

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Reply #36 on: May 27, 2009, 12:11:49 PM
The pace. ... The first time I tried listening to it, I gave up around 15 minutes in, and almost decided to skip it, but a few days later I tried again in less distracting surroundings, and it was worth it.

Geico ads? Yup. I thought about those, but I got better.

I also recalled the short story version of Asimov's The Ugly Little Boy. Vaguely similar premise, but with a very different outcome.

Finally, this modern reconstruction of a Neanderthal child -

[details at  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Neanderthal_child.jpg ]
- does look a lot like the description in the story.

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eytanz

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Reply #37 on: May 27, 2009, 03:15:38 PM
First, I'd like to offer my apologies for not responding sooner, and for the fact that I'm basically going to drop a lot of this conversation. The reason is simple - after reading your post I decided I need to re-listen to the story in order to answer properly, but have not been able to find the time to do so - and looking over my schedule for the next couple of weeks, I won't be able to anytime soon. So, while I'd like to be able to debate this further, at the moment I can only supply half-assed answers based on fuzzy memory of details, and I don't think that's appropriate to the respect I have for either yourself or the subject matter.


Actually, the sister is one of the worst offences as far as this story's lack of respect to its subject matter goes.

Wait, wait, wait.  Did you really just follow "all the racists are shown to be evil and that's petty and self-congratulatory" with "and the worst thing about that is the one that isn't"?  That can't be right, eh?  Say again, please.

I should clarify my point here, though, as you are correct that I was confusing.

Part of what I found wrong with this story is that it presented the anti-neanderthal racism as an straightforward evil. Good people, it implies, make a different choice. For that to work, it has to be shown that racism is a choice, and the sister exemplifies that. If racists can change their stripes wholeheartedly (as I took the sister to have done), then it follows that those who do not are simply unwilling. "We, the enlightened people", the story says "are better than all the others, because we make better choices. And see how easy it would have been for them to make the same choice?" That is the attitude that I find deeply troubling, as it is no help in eliminating racism, it is only good for feeling better that we are not racist.

Anyway, there's lots of other interesting questions raised by the story, and by the post I've quoted and barely responded to, but as I said, I don't think I'm in a position to answer them properly.



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Reply #38 on: May 27, 2009, 03:37:23 PM
Pass.  I've tried several times, but just couldn't get into this story.  Between the pacing and the levels, I have to work to hard to listen to it.  I also hate getting hit over the head with the (insert societal evil here) club.  It may or may not have happened in this story, but that's where it seemed to be going.




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Reply #39 on: May 27, 2009, 11:47:50 PM
First, I'd like to offer my apologies for not responding sooner, and for the fact that I'm basically going to drop a lot of this conversation. The reason is simple - after reading your post I decided I need to re-listen to the story in order to answer properly, but have not been able to find the time to do so - and looking over my schedule for the next couple of weeks, I won't be able to anytime soon. So, while I'd like to be able to debate this further, at the moment I can only supply half-assed answers based on fuzzy memory of details, and I don't think that's appropriate to the respect I have for either yourself or the subject matter.

No pressure, no stress, no apology necessary.  It's just a conversation.  Sometimes the phone rings.  Sometimes people have other places they need to be/other things they need to be doing.  It's understood.  I didn't feel slighted.  But thanks for popping in anyway. :)

Interested in what you would say when you get around to doing so.

Though I appreciate your willingness not to be half-assed.  More people should do that.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #40 on: May 28, 2009, 09:44:24 AM
First, I'd like to offer my apologies for not responding sooner, and for the fact that I'm basically going to drop a lot of this conversation. The reason is simple - after reading your post I decided I need to re-listen to the story in order to answer properly, but have not been able to find the time to do so - and looking over my schedule for the next couple of weeks, I won't be able to anytime soon. So, while I'd like to be able to debate this further, at the moment I can only supply half-assed answers based on fuzzy memory of details, and I don't think that's appropriate to the respect I have for either yourself or the subject matter.

No pressure, no stress, no apology necessary.  It's just a conversation.  Sometimes the phone rings.  Sometimes people have other places they need to be/other things they need to be doing.  It's understood.  I didn't feel slighted.  But thanks for popping in anyway. :)

Interested in what you would say when you get around to doing so.

Though I appreciate your willingness not to be half-assed.  More people should do that.

A perfect example of why it's easy to be a mod around here.  Sometimes you weirdos are just so civil. 



Zathras

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Reply #41 on: May 28, 2009, 03:27:53 PM
First, I'd like to offer my apologies for not responding sooner, and for the fact that I'm basically going to drop a lot of this conversation. The reason is simple - after reading your post I decided I need to re-listen to the story in order to answer properly, but have not been able to find the time to do so - and looking over my schedule for the next couple of weeks, I won't be able to anytime soon. So, while I'd like to be able to debate this further, at the moment I can only supply half-assed answers based on fuzzy memory of details, and I don't think that's appropriate to the respect I have for either yourself or the subject matter.

No pressure, no stress, no apology necessary.  It's just a conversation.  Sometimes the phone rings.  Sometimes people have other places they need to be/other things they need to be doing.  It's understood.  I didn't feel slighted.  But thanks for popping in anyway. :)

Interested in what you would say when you get around to doing so.

Though I appreciate your willingness not to be half-assed.  More people should do that.

A perfect example of why it's easy to be a mod around here.  Sometimes you weirdos are just so civil. 

Must.  Resist.  Urge.  To.  Start.  Fight.

Seriously, though, is it worth my time to go read this story?  My issues with the sound are just that, my issues.  If the story is worth the effort, I'll go read it.



Russell Nash

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Reply #42 on: May 28, 2009, 06:59:33 PM

Seriously, though, is it worth my time to go read this story?  My issues with the sound are just that, my issues.  If the story is worth the effort, I'll go read it.

If it's easy to find, then why not.  I wouldn't bust my balls looking for it though.



deflective

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Reply #43 on: May 28, 2009, 07:16:38 PM
it's already linked in this thread.  if this conversation interests you enough then you could read it to take part, but there's better stuff out there if you're just looking for a story.



Russell Nash

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Reply #44 on: May 28, 2009, 07:19:30 PM
it's already linked in this thread.  if this conversation interests you enough then you could read it to take part, but there's better stuff out there if you're just looking for a story.

Oops, asleep at the wheel here.



Zathras

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Reply #45 on: May 28, 2009, 09:27:24 PM
Followed the link and then the next link on that page.  There is no free version for this story, but there is one for Arties Aren't Stupid.



frak-em-all

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Reply #46 on: June 03, 2009, 08:20:29 PM
Quote

"2) The story seems to imply that because Neanderthals are stronger and smarter than humans, they will end up running the world.  The fallacy of this logic utterly fails when applied to the modern world:  white-europeans didn't rule the world because they were individually smarter or stronger.  Jared Diamond of "Guns, Steel, and Germs" has shown pretty conclusively that european civilizations beat out other civilizations because they were better organized (because they lived in cities and had better food production), had better technology (guns, steel again because of food production), and because they had better resistances to their diseases (from living in cities)."


Guns, Germs and Steel is an excellent book that I would recommend to anyone.  But, your application of it's concepts to this story just don't work.  As presented by Diamond, white Europeans were able to conquer other civilizations because they had technological advantages that were the result of the resources available to them in their environments.  He repeatedly asserts that racist ideas that whites are superior are false and that different races have the same capacity for advancement but some lacked resources which resulted in the technological differences.

On the other hand, this story suggests that Neanderthals posses fundamental biological advantages over homo sapiens.  And since they are integrated into our society the resources available to our ancestors is really irrelevant.  They have at their disposal all the advancements of mankind up to their "rebirth".  So, no technological differences to overcome.  And the story suggests that they have superior mental and physical capacity.  So the only thing holding them back from usurping homo sapiens may simply be numbers.

Think of it this way, if science resurrected the cave bear, which was larger and stronger than any modern bear, and released them into the wild in Alaska . . . how long do you think before they would start eliminating the smaller and weaker Alaskan brown bear that would be competing for the same food resources?

Esteban
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 06:36:13 PM by Bdoomed »



Russell Nash

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Reply #47 on: June 03, 2009, 08:44:45 PM
Think of it this way, if science resurrected the cave bear, which was larger and stronger than any modern bear, and released them into the wild in Alaska . . . how long do you think before they would start eliminating the smaller and weaker Alaskan brown bear that would be competing for the same food resources?

Actually I think the cave bear would go immediately extinct again.  The Polar Bear is the largest a meat eating mammal can achieve and still be able to feed itself and that is only because of the availability of fat lazy seals lying out on the ice.  That's why when the ice is gone, most of the polar bears will follow.

That being said, I think much of your argument about the Neanderthals is correct.  The problem with our society today is that there is too much food for the taking.  This means that the Neanderthal's disadvantage (as presented by our narrator) is totally irrelevant.  If they really are smarter and stronger, they would have a natural advantage in our world.



Doom xombie

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Reply #48 on: June 04, 2009, 01:01:31 AM
First, I'd like to offer my apologies for not responding sooner, and for the fact that I'm basically going to drop a lot of this conversation. The reason is simple - after reading your post I decided I need to re-listen to the story in order to answer properly, but have not been able to find the time to do so - and looking over my schedule for the next couple of weeks, I won't be able to anytime soon. So, while I'd like to be able to debate this further, at the moment I can only supply half-assed answers based on fuzzy memory of details, and I don't think that's appropriate to the respect I have for either yourself or the subject matter.

No pressure, no stress, no apology necessary.  It's just a conversation.  Sometimes the phone rings.  Sometimes people have other places they need to be/other things they need to be doing.  It's understood.  I didn't feel slighted.  But thanks for popping in anyway. :)

Interested in what you would say when you get around to doing so.

Though I appreciate your willingness not to be half-assed.  More people should do that.

A perfect example of why it's easy to be a mod around here.  Sometimes you weirdos are just so civil. 

Lol when was the last time you actually broke up a forum fight?

Look its a signature! And a dragon!





Russell Nash

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Reply #49 on: June 05, 2009, 06:32:56 AM
First, I'd like to offer my apologies for not responding sooner, and for the fact that I'm basically going to drop a lot of this conversation. The reason is simple - after reading your post I decided I need to re-listen to the story in order to answer properly, but have not been able to find the time to do so - and looking over my schedule for the next couple of weeks, I won't be able to anytime soon. So, while I'd like to be able to debate this further, at the moment I can only supply half-assed answers based on fuzzy memory of details, and I don't think that's appropriate to the respect I have for either yourself or the subject matter.

No pressure, no stress, no apology necessary.  It's just a conversation.  Sometimes the phone rings.  Sometimes people have other places they need to be/other things they need to be doing.  It's understood.  I didn't feel slighted.  But thanks for popping in anyway. :)

Interested in what you would say when you get around to doing so.

Though I appreciate your willingness not to be half-assed.  More people should do that.

A perfect example of why it's easy to be a mod around here.  Sometimes you weirdos are just so civil. 

Lol when was the last time you actually broke up a forum fight?

I've never had to.  The most I've done was ask for cooler heads.  When the real arguments start in Gallimaufry, we always ask for everyone to link their sources.  This cuts down on just bone-headed screaming.  The religious arguments were always the worst, but we haven't had one of those in over a year.