Author Topic: EP198: N-words  (Read 35040 times)

Portrait in Flesh

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Reply #75 on: June 11, 2009, 12:17:50 AM
I was born and raised in SoCal ...

Having just moved to Oregon from south Orange County, may I ask what city, out of curiosity?

Santa Ana.

I spent many a shameful year working at Disneyland.   :-[

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LadyIndigo

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Reply #76 on: June 11, 2009, 12:31:56 AM
As far as the purpose of a story, why on earth would you write about a complicated and divisive issue and not be prepared for a fallout of some kind?  It's inevitable whether the author intended it or not.  And the dialogue it creates, as eytanz said very well, is problematic.  It's flawed.  

I would not assume the author has not prepared for fallout.  I would not assume the author did not intend for there to be fallout.  Unless proven otherwise, I would assume the author stepped into it knowing full well what they were doing and where they were going and what might come back at them for their trouble.  At the very least, the title gives a strong indicator that he knew exactly what he was doing.

I don't understand your description of dialog as flawed.  This particular forum thread is flawed?  Please explain further.

I assume the author prepared for fallout too, I'm saying that your position of how stories shouldn't create change is what confuses me.  It's a story and it's about a big issue.  Just as the author should expect a dialogue (and dialogue creates change), so should you. 

Right now we're not so much having a dialogue on race as we're having a dialogue on stories about race, but inevitably talk about race comes in.  I agree our discussion of race isn't any more flawed than any other conversation about race by a nearly homogenous group; there's an inherent flaw, as you said, in that we have very few POC voices here to our knowledge.  But I think we know to discuss all the stereotypes in the story because we have a larger context.  If this were as you suggested, sort of a review of racism's history (and it's not, it hardly covers Asian stereotyping and doesn't address Hispanics or Native Americans at all), and it were operating as a warning or a Race 101, someone with no other context about anti-racism work would be coming from a very bad base for all the reasons everyone has listed.  So, operating by itself, this story is a bad place to teach about racism, or to open up dialogue about racism based SOLELY on its premise.  At least based on my read of the story.

I would never suggest, incidentally, that a story about race should not be written because the topic is too big.  I think most stories about controversial topics will be lacking in some way because these issues are complicated for a reason, but that's all the more reason to talk about them.  Others have said it best, "Try and fail, try again and fail better."



Anarkey

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Reply #77 on: June 11, 2009, 02:29:12 AM
I'm saying that your position of how stories shouldn't create change is what confuses me.  It's a story and it's about a big issue.  Just as the author should expect a dialogue (and dialogue creates change), so should you. 

I don't believe I said anything about what stories should or shouldn't do except be art and be art before they are propaganda or anything else they aim to be.  And even that should was not a universal mandate, but rather predicated on my preference, a relative scale that applies only to me.  I certainly didn't say stories shouldn't create change.  Why do you think I said this?  I did say that stories suck at creating change, and that many other methods are far more effective than a story if what you are looking for is change.  And just to be clear, I was talking about political change, not some personal revelation individual type change. 

Also dubious, by the way, on the amount of political change creatable by dialogue, something you apparently take as a given. 

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LadyIndigo

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Reply #78 on: June 11, 2009, 04:58:39 AM
And just to be clear, I was talking about political change, not some personal revelation individual type change. 

Also dubious, by the way, on the amount of political change creatable by dialogue, something you apparently take as a given. 

I think that's where we're not communicating, since I (maybe naively, but who knows?) don't think the two can be separated.  Politics come from the opinions we form individually, so those personal changes are important to the political process.     And that change doesn't always mean a "revelation" or a massive upheaval, you're the one presuming that.  It often just means poking at our way of thinking in order to change our personal rules, or maybe just keep people talking - that's still political and it's still change.  On matters like race I'd sooner emphasize personal change than national, since the very way we talk about race is often so flawed.  You can make a speech or wave a sign all you like, but until you really dig at the underlying baggage we're all carrying you're talking to a wall, and I find the little moments like a story (or an anecdote) chip away at our ideas more than big ones.  They certainly are more moving to me.  President Obama's speech about race during his campaign was dead on: combating racism is about having a conversation.

And I suspect this is something we'll just disagree on, but I don't know if you can write about a big touchy issue as explicitly as this story does, with the story so clearly sending a message, without being both art AND very political on that individual level, and letting the politics be just as important as the quality of the art.  The politics eclipse the art by the nature of what's being done.  A subtler metaphor such as in "I'll Gnaw Your Bones"?  Sure, story can be story first there.  But to me, "N-words" set itself up to Teach with a capital T, and if that's what it wants to do it can't be art first anymore, it's confined by its message.  I hope I'm making sense. :) 



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Reply #79 on: June 11, 2009, 06:57:56 AM
I was born and raised in SoCal ...

Having just moved to Oregon from south Orange County, may I ask what city, out of curiosity?

Santa Ana.

I spent many a shameful year working at Disneyland.   :-[

I grew up in Fountain Valley and Huntington Beach (went to both FVHS and Edison), and lived in Santa Ana briefly in the late '80s (off Bristol, very near South Coast Plaza).  But we moved from Saddleback Valley, specifically Lake Forest.

I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!



Russell Nash

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Reply #80 on: June 11, 2009, 08:40:39 AM
I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!


I imagine i got really old, really fast.



Zathras

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Reply #81 on: June 11, 2009, 11:02:58 AM
I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!


I imagine i got really old, really fast.

Why yes, yes you did.



Russell Nash

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Reply #82 on: June 11, 2009, 12:03:55 PM
I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!


I imagine i got really old, really fast.

Why yes, yes you did.

Damn it!

It got old.

Damn it!



Anarkey

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Reply #83 on: June 11, 2009, 01:16:08 PM
And just to be clear, I was talking about political change, not some personal revelation individual type change. 

Also dubious, by the way, on the amount of political change creatable by dialogue, something you apparently take as a given. 

I think that's where we're not communicating, since I (maybe naively, but who knows?) don't think the two can be separated.  Politics come from the opinions we form individually, so those personal changes are important to the political process.   

Yes.  We're using completely different versions of the word "politics".  While I have no problem acknowledging that the personal is political, I certainly don't think the two are equivalent or interchangeable.  My operating definition of politics, FWIW, includes systems under which people have no vote (and plenty of those exist), making a lot of your talk about process seem, not naive, but ...privileged?  Like you don't have to think about the possibility of politics that's externally imposed on you because wheee dialog and voting and aren't we all wonderful?  I don't think politics in non-Western European/non-North American countries usually works the way you're describing.  I think the word politics applies to governing systems of all nations, and using a definition that so obviously excludes a huge chunk of the world is a mistake.  But, ehhh, I'm ok with your definition for the purposes of this conversation...it's just not the same one I'm using.

However, I'll note that you (and others) are angry at this story for implying that race relations in this country are so simple (though, personally, I don't believe the story implied that) and not big and complicated the way they are in the real, external world and so on and so forth but then you've turned around and used a definition of politics that's very basic and doesn't encompass the complex nature of geopolitics, and in fact, looks only to the (so-called) first world as its operating basis and generalizes from there.

 And that change doesn't always mean a "revelation" or a massive upheaval, you're the one presuming that. 

Actually, no.  And this conversation will go better if you quit presuming what I presume (this is not the first time, but I've been letting them slide).  I was presuming any change at all to be unlikely.  It's my opinion that most dialog (and stories) do not change a static condition.  I don't preclude that change is possible, however incremental, I just believe it to be extremely unlikely.  I don't believe, for example, that my telling you your view of politics is way too zeroed in on the US will change your view of politics.  At all.  Not even a smidge.  And at the risk of sounding all confirmation biasy, I have had hundreds of conversations just like this one and probably only a half dozen ever changed anyone, and most of those were with kids.  This force of inertia is the process that causes the creation of stuff like the race bingo card.  The change doesn't happen, and every encounter is a square one encounter and most of the time people walk away with zero idea of what the big deal is about and zero change.  Which is totally exhausting.  Though perhaps not futile.

And I suspect this is something we'll just disagree on, but I don't know if you can write about a big touchy issue as explicitly as this story does, with the story so clearly sending a message, without being both art AND very political on that individual level, and letting the politics be just as important as the quality of the art.  The politics eclipse the art by the nature of what's being done.  A subtler metaphor such as in "I'll Gnaw Your Bones"?  Sure, story can be story first there.  But to me, "N-words" set itself up to Teach with a capital T, and if that's what it wants to do it can't be art first anymore, it's confined by its message.  I hope I'm making sense. :) 

Yes.  We disagree on this.  We have to, because I don't see this story as being strident and teachy the way you do.  I see it as blatantly about race, but I'll not grant that it so clearly sends a message, because you and I have not been able to agree on what that message is...so it can't be all that clear.  And your basis for your interpretation is all about what the author intends (to teach, or to send a message) which I can't grant, even if my interpretation is wrong, because it implies you're a mind reader.  And I don't think you are.  I'll note that while I preferred "I'll Gnaw Your Bones" on almost every level, if you go look in the discussion thread for that story, most of the listeners did not think it was a story about race.  To me it clearly, undeniably, obviously was, but that's not the takeaway most people walked away with.  At least in this story, no one is wondering or debating whether the story is about race.  People are mad that it's about race, people are offended, people are bored, people are skirting right up to the line of telling the author he had no business writing this story, but no one is like "Oh really? Race? I didn't see it."  I think we need the more blatant stories, too.  I'm glad Kosmatka wrote it.  I'm glad EP ran it.

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LadyIndigo

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Reply #84 on: June 11, 2009, 05:08:40 PM
I think the word politics applies to governing systems of all nations, and using a definition that so obviously excludes a huge chunk of the world is a mistake.  But, ehhh, I'm ok with your definition for the purposes of this conversation...it's just not the same one I'm using.

However, I'll note that you (and others) are angry at this story for implying that race relations in this country are so simple (though, personally, I don't believe the story implied that) and not big and complicated the way they are in the real, external world and so on and so forth but then you've turned around and used a definition of politics that's very basic and doesn't encompass the complex nature of geopolitics, and in fact, looks only to the (so-called) first world as its operating basis and generalizes from there.

That absolutely is notable, and I appreciate you correcting me on it.  I'm certainly not above privileged thinking (no people of privilege are), even as I want to talk about and address it.  When I talk about transformative conversations about race, I'm thinking the West and civil rights and democratic process, yes - I didn't think consciously about that, but it's what I was doing.  I don't have any other knowledge base to work from.  (Racial landscapes in particular are different all over, Haiti and the Dominican Republic for example.)  I also don't see personal politics/ideals as equivalent or interchangeable with Western lawmaking, more that they are integral in shaping each other.  As far as more universal, worldwide political landscapes and the place in stories of ANY topic on a worldwide scale, I've done no reading on the subject yet to give an opinion.  There are far too many complexities there, as you said.

Actually, no.  And this conversation will go better if you quit presuming what I presume (this is not the first time, but I've been letting them slide).
 

I'm responding to what I read in your words, but misunderstandings happen.  I should have qualified that it was what you SEEMED to be presuming, but I don't see why we have to worry about whether this conversation "goes better" when we're being respectful (I hope I am, anyway, and apologize if I'm not), I have no emnity towards you at all, and I feel like we're both saying useful things.  (Even if everyone making Wookie jokes is probably tired of my pretentious ass right now. :) )

Quote from: Anarkey link=topic=2597.msg47560#msg47560 date=1244726168I
I was presuming any change at all to be unlikely.  It's my opinion that most dialog (and stories) do not change a static condition.  I don't preclude that change is possible, however incremental, I just believe it to be extremely unlikely.  I don't believe, for example, that my telling you your view of politics is way too zeroed in on the US will change your view of politics.  At all.  Not even a smidge.  And at the risk of sounding all confirmation biasy, I have had hundreds of conversations just like this one and probably only a half dozen ever changed anyone, and most of those were with kids.  This force of inertia is the process that causes the creation of stuff like the race bingo card.  The change doesn't happen, and every encounter is a square one encounter and most of the time people walk away with zero idea of what the big deal is about and zero change.  Which is totally exhausting.  Though perhaps not futile.

And yet I acknowledged your comments and looked at the angle from which I approach politics and why, and although I am trying to justify myself somewhat I also plan to remmeber myself for the future.  I don't think I'm in any way special or smart for that, just open on this particular subject.  Will I make the mistake again?  Probably.  Will I remember this and use it to avoid the mistake as often as possible until it's worked out of my personal baggage?  I hope so.  I agree it's zilch without effort, and the race bingo card is coming from people who are more concerned with being smug or "right" than having a discussion.  But I don't think those people are transformed by a protest rally or a democratic process either.  The personal experiences that those changes in law create?  Yes, but not always. 

I learned my small vocabulary of anti-racism theory through a cultural competency class on the road to being a social worker, K. Tempest Bradford's blog The Angry Black Woman, and a lot of discussion caused by whitewashed movie casting for Avatar the Last Airbender, as well as posts that popped up and were passed on throughout the blogosphere.  Among the tools that helped were diagrams, comic strips, and personal anecdotes.  I'd say those all have elements of story in varying ways.  But certainly change of my way of thinking emerged over a few years, though by no means a complete or perfect change (and I have no idea how well I'm putting it into practice). 

And your basis for your interpretation is all about what the author intends (to teach, or to send a message) which I can't grant, even if my interpretation is wrong, because it implies you're a mind reader.  And I don't think you are.

I'm not.  But I think readers have a right to comment on possible intent as long as they're open to the possibility they may be wrong.  Otherwise what's the point?  Should the author come and explain some other meaning or mechanism to the story - and he's in no way obligated to - then my opinion may well change.  But it'd change to whether his intent was executed well, and the unintentional message he sent instead, and how in my opinion (for what that's worth) he could have executed his intentions better or worse.

I'll note that while I preferred "I'll Gnaw Your Bones" on almost every level, if you go look in the discussion thread for that story, most of the listeners did not think it was a story about race.  To me it clearly, undeniably, obviously was, but that's not the takeaway most people walked away with.  At least in this story, no one is wondering or debating whether the story is about race.  People are mad that it's about race, people are offended, people are bored, people are skirting right up to the line of telling the author he had no business writing this story, but no one is like "Oh really? Race? I didn't see it."  I think we need the more blatant stories, too.  I'm glad Kosmatka wrote it.  I'm glad EP ran it.

You could interpret a few things in "I'll Gnaw Your Bones," which I loved, and I was surprised that people seemed to find NO meaning in it when I could see race and eugenics (although problematic in that POC = nonhuman way I talked about earlier) or animal rights in equal stretches.  Maybe even an intent to invoke both.  But I disagree that we need a blatant story because no one saw the racial elements in a subtler one.  Not when the blatant story isn't any good.  But I'd never say Kosmatka shouldn't write about race, even if I think he did poorly at it, because first of all no one is going to agree on how to have this conversation, including people of color.  Second, like I said, you don't know the best way to write about a big issue right away, if ever.  You learn.  I certainly wouldn't have a snowball's chance of getting it all "right" either. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 08:42:14 PM by LadyIndigo »



Portrait in Flesh

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Reply #85 on: June 11, 2009, 11:38:08 PM
I don't think working at Disneyland is shameful at all!  I would have loved to!


I imagine i got really old, really fast.

Why yes, yes you did.

Damn it!

It got old.

Damn it!

Sheesh, you kids today.   :P

My Disney experience definitely left some scarring.  It goes far beyond just seeing characters walk around backstage without their heads.  ::shudders::

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stePH

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Reply #86 on: June 20, 2009, 03:33:50 PM
Anarky is using the fact that the SF community is overwhelmingly white to make assumptions about our forums.  About half of our posters have said (or posted pictures) that they are white.  She's just assuming everyone else is too.  Just because nobody has stood up (except for stePh) and said they were a purple hermaphrodite, doesn't mean we don't have a green hermaphrodite sub-culture here. 

I don't remember having claimed to be a purple hermaphrodite.  Or purple.  Or a hermaphrodite.

I thought Zorag was the purple one.

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JoeFitz

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Reply #87 on: June 22, 2009, 03:25:39 AM
Not to come down too strongly on the pro/con side for this story, I have to say that, once again, this forum has addressed the issue(s) raised by the story far more effectively than the story, IMHO.

At the end of the day, I was disappointed because what I felt was the central theme (prejudice is bad) is flipped on its head (prejudice is justified). I can not reconcile a story that decries prejudice largely, as it turns out, because it is based on factual error. H. Sapiens ought not to be prejudiced because H.N. is, in fact, superior in all respects. And H.N. has been quietly biding his time, waiting for H.S. to push him too far. And then his uptown H.S. will slap somebody!? And the half-breed boy is angry?!



DarkKnightJRK

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Reply #88 on: July 17, 2009, 03:56:37 AM
I do agree that it doesn't do that well in creating a message of "racism is bad, m'kay?" when the protagonist is prejudiced in her own way, but I wonder if that's the intent. Perhaps it's not meant to be your traditional somewhat-after-school-special ideal of overcoming prejudice, but more of the natural reactions people have when they as a minority or being friends/family of one being a victim of prejudice.

As a parable of how to beat racism, I don't think it succeeds. As a tale about human fallability, about a grieving wife who loses faith in her own social group (i.e. H. Sapians) after cruely murdering the father of her child, I think it works pretty well.



Bdoomed

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Reply #89 on: August 16, 2009, 11:38:27 PM
just listened on my trip up to move back into college
had to skip another story because it didnt work well on my car speakers, this one worked okay, it was audible :P.
great reading, awesome story, makes me hate people even more though.  Prejudice really bothers me, whether it be racism or sexism or homophobia (is that the word?).
definately keeping this episode :)

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Unblinking

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Reply #90 on: May 07, 2010, 05:03:12 PM
I didn't finish this one.  Mostly it was just way too preachy and message bludgeoning, starting with the title.

It seemed to me the racism discussion was hurt more by making the other race be a non-human species than it helped.  I see what the author were trying to do, but I don't think it worked.

The reading was too labored.  I like her voice, but the dramatic pauses were just too much.

Near the beginning the story was trying way too hard to obscure itself.  For instance, as she's looking at the boy, and it says something along the lines of "it's obvious what he is" but never to bothered to tell ME what is so obvious--that was really annoying to me.  I like to sink into a POV character, and at that point it was clear that she was withholding vital information from me which breaks my immersion.

And in the end, I just want a story, not a lecture on why racism is bad.  If you can get that into a story, and have the story carry the message instead of the other way around.  The title implies to me that the message is what's intended to be the focus.  Not my cuppa.