Author Topic: Is God a jerk? split from EP193: Article of Faith  (Read 6399 times)

Talia

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on: June 13, 2009, 05:24:54 PM
Who would want to worship a deity who's a big, bigoted jerk, though? :P



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #1 on: June 13, 2009, 05:31:20 PM
Who would want to worship a deity who's a big, bigoted jerk, though? :P

Anyone who wants to be able to justify, if only to themselves, their own bigotry.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #2 on: June 14, 2009, 10:56:39 AM
Who would want to worship a deity who's a big, bigoted jerk, though? :P

Anyone who wants to be able to justify, if only to themselves, their own bigotry.

It gives you he ultimate justification for unfounded hatred.  They can talk about taking all sorts of rights away from certain groups and still say they themselves are good people.



wakela

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Reply #3 on: June 14, 2009, 11:57:17 PM
Who would want to worship a deity who's a big, bigoted jerk, though? :P

Anyone who wants to be able to justify, if only to themselves, their own bigotry.

It gives you he ultimate justification for unfounded hatred.  They can talk about taking all sorts of rights away from certain groups and still say they themselves are good people.

But this is kind of missing my point ...   It doesn't matter what kind of God you want to worship.  It doesn't matter if you want to justify cruelty.  God is what God is.  One should decide what God is based on the evidence plus the "leap of faith."  If you accept the Bible as true then there is able evidence that he is a bigoted jerk. 

If someone dropped a sandwich in the yard the ants would worship him as a benevolent God (bare with me a little).  If he was a cruel God why would He give us such bounty?  But then their God comes out the next day and poisons them.  And what if the ant God only poisons that ants that sting people and spares the non stinging ants.  Then He's a cruel bigot.  It doesn't matter at all what kind of God the ant decide that He is.

Steve may be basing his opinion on God on evidence, but he didn't present any. 



eytanz

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Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 12:28:34 AM
You're making a lot of assumptions about the nature of God. What if God is directly affected by what people think It is? Sure, that's not compatible with most religious "evidence" out there, but by your logic, the nature of God is not determined by what is written about It in any book.

As someone who believes in something I call "god" (lower case, mind you, it's not a person), but does not accept any written scripture as having more inherent worth than, say, the Odyssey (i.e., hugely important for its literary merits and cultural influence, but not fact in any way), it seems to me that there is no way to evaluate other people's beliefs. I believe in what seems right to me, on a basic level that I don't really know how to assess rationally. I assume that, for at least some other people, the same is true of their beliefs. If any such person doesn't believe in the same thing as me, that means that at least one of us is wrong. However, since all I have to go with is a gut feeling, and I don't think my gut feelings are objectively better than anyone else's, I cannot determine which one of us is wrong. So I go on believing in what seems right to me, and don't compare it to other people whose beliefs arise from a similar instinctive level.

But - since I cannot evaluate my beliefs relative to other people with a similar type of belief, I cannot see how I can evaluate it relative to people whose belief takes a different form. Maybe the right way to believe is to learn what to believe from a book, horrible as that may seem to me. And maybe the right way to believe is to believe really hard in what you want. Who knows? Not me. I will go on believing what I believe, and others will go on believing what they believe. If I am wrong, and some of those others are correct, then God will sort us all out in the end.




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Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 07:03:07 AM
Who would want to worship a deity who's a big, bigoted jerk, though? :P

Anyone who wants to be able to justify, if only to themselves, their own bigotry.

It gives you he ultimate justification for unfounded hatred.  They can talk about taking all sorts of rights away from certain groups and still say they themselves are good people.

But this is kind of missing my point ...   It doesn't matter what kind of God you want to worship.  It doesn't matter if you want to justify cruelty.  God is what God is.  One should decide what God is based on the evidence plus the "leap of faith."  If you accept the Bible as true then there is able evidence that he is a bigoted jerk. 

If someone dropped a sandwich in the yard the ants would worship him as a benevolent God (bare with me a little).  If he was a cruel God why would He give us such bounty?  But then their God comes out the next day and poisons them.  And what if the ant God only poisons that ants that sting people and spares the non stinging ants.  Then He's a cruel bigot.  It doesn't matter at all what kind of God the ant decide that He is.

Steve may be basing his opinion on God on evidence, but he didn't present any. 

But here you're missing the point.  God doesn't have press conferences.  He doesn't have an advertising firm out there promoting a single image.  He has about 4000 different denominations all screaming their heads off that they're right.  They all disagree with one another.  This allows people to just go along and pick whatever beliefs they want, cafeteria style, and say it's God's way.

There is no direct evidence of God, so there is no proof of a certain form of God.  There's only all of these denominations screaming at each other.



Bdoomed

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Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 07:47:30 AM
God doesn't have press conferences.
Deicon 2009

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


stePH

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Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 02:52:07 PM
As someone who believes in something I call "god" (lower case, mind you, it's not a person), but does not accept any written scripture as having more inherent worth than, say, the Odyssey (i.e., hugely important for its literary merits and cultural influence, but not fact in any way), it seems to me that there is no way to evaluate other people's beliefs. I believe in what seems right to me, on a basic level that I don't really know how to assess rationally. I assume that, for at least some other people, the same is true of their beliefs. If any such person doesn't believe in the same thing as me, that means that at least one of us is wrong. However, since all I have to go with is a gut feeling, and I don't think my gut feelings are objectively better than anyone else's, I cannot determine which one of us is wrong. So I go on believing in what seems right to me, and don't compare it to other people whose beliefs arise from a similar instinctive level.

But - since I cannot evaluate my beliefs relative to other people with a similar type of belief, I cannot see how I can evaluate it relative to people whose belief takes a different form. Maybe the right way to believe is to learn what to believe from a book, horrible as that may seem to me. And maybe the right way to believe is to believe really hard in what you want. Who knows? Not me. I will go on believing what I believe, and others will go on believing what they believe. If I am wrong, and some of those others are correct, then God will sort us all out in the end.

So spirituality is like a salad bar; you take what you want and leave the rest?

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eytanz

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Reply #8 on: June 15, 2009, 03:27:04 PM
So spirituality is like a salad bar; you take what you want and leave the rest?

No, not at all. My desires don't play a role; when I say "I believe in what seems right to me", I don't mean "I believe in what seems most desirable", I mean "I believe in what seems to best describe the world as I percieve it".

I just do not believe that my perception of the world is inherently more correct than anyone else's, yet at the same time I do not see why that should bother me. Obviously, I have opinions about other people's faiths - I have serious issues with some basic properties of the Christian faith (I do not accept the notion of original sin, for example), but that is an intellectual position. I do not have an intellectual opposition to atheism, for example, but I am no more capable of being an atheist than I am capable of believing in invisibile pink unicorns. Still, other people may be capable of being atheists, and that may be the most natural way for them to view the world. Who am I to say that they are wrong?



deflective

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Reply #9 on: June 15, 2009, 06:10:17 PM
...And what if the ant God only poisons that ants that sting people and spares the non stinging ants.

did you mean can sting people?  only using poison on ants that attack you isn't bigotry, it's reciprocation.


...it seems to me that there is no way to evaluate other people's beliefs. I believe in what seems right to me, on a basic level that I don't really know how to assess rationally. I assume that, for at least some other people, the same is true of their beliefs.

an exercise that's worthwhile for everyone is to write out your system of faith.  even if it's as simple as, "i don't really consider faith important and haven't given it any thought," this is something worth knowing about yourself.

i absolutely believe that different faith systems can be compared & evaluated.  whether or not this comparison causes more problems than it's worth is another question.

a version of my core faith is online in another thread.  it's targeted towards someone of the christian faith and the wording is designed to be accessible to that vernacular but the essential points are all there.  also relevant, my personal definitions of belief & faith.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 10:16:46 PM by deflective »



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Reply #10 on: June 15, 2009, 06:13:52 PM
Just remembered George Hrab's "Amazing Life" sketch, from Geologic Podcast Episode 61.  "God's a prick."

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Bdoomed

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Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 07:00:05 AM
I used to defend the argument for the existence of god as much as i defended the argument against the existence of god.
i dont know if i wanna defend the existence of god anymore... NOR do i know if i care or not...
i watched Religulous and it all seems so pointless now.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


wakela

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Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 05:22:45 AM
Who would want to worship a deity who's a big, bigoted jerk, though? :P

Anyone who wants to be able to justify, if only to themselves, their own bigotry.

It gives you he ultimate justification for unfounded hatred.  They can talk about taking all sorts of rights away from certain groups and still say they themselves are good people.

But this is kind of missing my point ...   It doesn't matter what kind of God you want to worship.  It doesn't matter if you want to justify cruelty.  God is what God is.  One should decide what God is based on the evidence plus the "leap of faith."  If you accept the Bible as true then there is able evidence that he is a bigoted jerk. 

If someone dropped a sandwich in the yard the ants would worship him as a benevolent God (bare with me a little).  If he was a cruel God why would He give us such bounty?  But then their God comes out the next day and poisons them.  And what if the ant God only poisons that ants that sting people and spares the non stinging ants.  Then He's a cruel bigot.  It doesn't matter at all what kind of God the ant decide that He is.

Steve may be basing his opinion on God on evidence, but he didn't present any. 

But here you're missing the point.  God doesn't have press conferences.  He doesn't have an advertising firm out there promoting a single image.  He has about 4000 different denominations all screaming their heads off that they're right.  They all disagree with one another.  This allows people to just go along and pick whatever beliefs they want, cafeteria style, and say it's God's way.

There is no direct evidence of God, so there is no proof of a certain form of God.  There's only all of these denominations screaming at each other.

There is no good evidence of alien life either, and we all get to pick a choose what kind of aliens we think would be the coolest or most realistic.  But when someone stands up and says, "I think the aliens are like Vulcans."  I think it's fair to respond that the odds of them being like Vulcans is are very slim.  And if someone says that when the aliens come they will help us solve our problems, I think it's fair to point out that the odds that this person is projecting his wishes on reality are greater than the aliens being benevolent.   When Steve said that he thought God would be inclusive and accepting of everyone's beliefs if He existed, it reminded me of the people who attribute specific qualities to God because that's how they would like God to be -- the salad bar guys.  (I'm not saying that Steve is such a person, just that he made me think of them).  This might make you feel better, and what's the harm in that, but it does not get us anywhere closer to the truth of what God is.  It's just as likely that God possess attributes that do not coincide with those of a 21st century, western, liberal.  If Steve had said "I think God hates homosexuals" I would have said that it's just as likely that he doesn't. 

I'm not trying to tell people what the should believe, but I don't mind them HOW they should believe.  They can tell me to screw off they want.

eyantz, you said that your beliefs of God are based on a guy feeling plus what fits in with your observations of the world and that you don't see your beliefs as being any more valid that anyone else's.   Does you feel that that brings you closer to the truth of what God is?  Is that important?  <--not intended to be sarcastic.




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Reply #13 on: June 17, 2009, 12:47:25 PM
Wakela, the difference is that no one is denying people rights or doing violent things to them based on their belief in aliens.



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Reply #14 on: June 17, 2009, 01:13:26 PM
Wakela, the difference is that no one is denying people rights or doing violent things to them based on their belief in aliens.

Depends on which version of ET you see the original or the one Spielburg fubared after he had kids


wakela

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Reply #15 on: June 17, 2009, 11:40:21 PM
Wakela, the difference is that no one is denying people rights or doing violent things to them based on their belief in aliens.
Who's to say that God doesn't want people's rights violated?  Maybe he really does hate certain kinds of people.  He hasn't told us that he does, but he hasn't told us that he doesn't either.  There is no way for us to know, so it's best that we pick the one that is best for a free society and so we go with "God doesn't want us to roundup [insert group here] and shoot them."   I'm fine with this because that's the society I'd rather live in.  But it has nothing to do with the true nature of God.

You are talking about religion's effect on society.  I'm asking how can we assign specific attributes to God. 



eytanz

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Reply #16 on: June 18, 2009, 12:00:16 AM

eyantz, you said that your beliefs of God are based on a guy feeling plus what fits in with your observations of the world and that you don't see your beliefs as being any more valid that anyone else's.   Does you feel that that brings you closer to the truth of what God is?  Is that important?  <--not intended to be sarcastic.

Let me answer the final question first - if I am correct (or reasonably close) about the nature of god, then no, it's not important. If I am mistaken, then it may be very important - if Christians are correct, for example, then it's quite important to be close to the truth of what God is.

However, as far as I can tell I lack any independently verifiable tools for getting closer to the truth of god. Any test I am aware of presupposes the answer. And with no usable objective means of determining the truth about god, I will rely on the only subjective means that I can trust, namely, my own instincts.

Wakela, the difference is that no one is denying people rights or doing violent things to them based on their belief in aliens.

That is a red herring. People will seek whatever is convenient as justification for violence or oppression. Religion is convenient, but in its absence new justifications will arise.



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Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 01:04:49 AM
Here I promised myself I would never discuss deep topics like religion or politics or philosophy on the Internet again. Just when I thought I was out...

My 2 cents on the subject:

If there IS a God, a being of limitless and incomprehensible power and knowledge and wisdom, then we limited beings have little to no chance of comprehending him. Some of us are more in-tune with the workings of the universe than others, but we can only perceive what we can perceive. Which is not much. To call God a "jerk," therefore, is an error: a presumption based on limited information. We can't know why a presumably loving God allows bad things to happen; maybe he has a perfectly good reason, and we're simply incapable of understanding it. This, of course, is where faith comes in. The belief, in the absence of proof, that there is a God and he is good.

This is why I tend to gravitate toward Deism, and the notion of a Grand Design. We are each of us a component in a great artifact that is the Universe, and we are each playing our part. Like the many springs and gears inside a grandfather clock, each of us does a single but vital thing that insures the proper functioning of the whole, even if we can only dimly perceive it. I find the philosophy of it quite liberating: we are all doing what we are supposed to be doing, because that's what we were made to do. An individual cannot go against the will of God any more than a gear can refuse to turn. So everything that happens was meant to happen. Every one of us is what we were meant to be, and doing what we were meant to do. We can do nothing else; we are As He Made Us.

Granted, this is all predicated on the Deist notion that this world is the best of all possible worlds, and is unfolding as it should...about which I have the occasional doubt.

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izzardfan

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Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 10:39:25 AM
Granted, this is all predicated on the Deist notion that this world is the best of all possible worlds, and is unfolding as it should...about which I have the occasional doubt.

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