Author Topic: EP200: All You Zombies  (Read 49683 times)

deflective

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Reply #25 on: July 05, 2009, 06:48:40 PM
Fine really, really forced.  It was a year ago.  Cut me some slack.

awwww, schnookums.  big man when he's throwing around an open challenge but doesn't even read the stories he was challenged with and when it's brought up again he can't be bothered to refresh himself.

We always complain about time paradoxes, and this story was a nesting of time paradoxes inside of time paradoxes. 

we do?  the point of this story is to showcase a paradox, display the strange things that may happen if time travel was actually possible.  this is a lot different than an author using the standard alternate-timeline version in a story but not noticing the paradoxes their story generates.

I give.  I don't think I can turn this into a non-Speculative Fiction story.  This story is also in no way a realistic SF story.

realistic sf?  really?



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Reply #26 on: July 05, 2009, 07:26:29 PM
I give.  I don't think I can turn this into a non-Speculative Fiction story.  This story is also in no way a realistic SF story.

realistic sf?  really?

(Longer argument shortened, because I didn't want to introduce to many variables into the conversation.)

Really, he's his own father and mother.



Praxis

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Reply #27 on: July 05, 2009, 09:17:43 PM
I had encountered this story before (though I didn't realise it was a Heinlein story, it was more of a diagram showing how the different timelines and 'people' intersected) so I admit I knew where it was going from early-ish on.

But it didn't have any paradoxes.

For instance, a paradox would have been if, on going back in time, (s)he had killed his original Dad and had then seduced himself/mother and THEN become his Dad through changing the timeline impossibly.
Given the possibility of timetravel and in effect a fully functional woman/man, the events in the story could indeed have happened.  And this is the point of the narrator being the focus of all these different events that couldn't have happened any other way .

I loved the idea of other people, who merely have parents and, y'know, live and have no effect on their past at all, would seem so much less as people.

(*whisper* If someone had said 'Heinlein' for episode 200, I'd have been thinking 'Stranger in a Strange Land' so it's probably just as well I didn't have any clues.)



eytanz

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Reply #28 on: July 05, 2009, 09:43:55 PM
I had encountered this story before (though I didn't realise it was a Heinlein story, it was more of a diagram showing how the different timelines and 'people' intersected) so I admit I knew where it was going from early-ish on.

But it didn't have any paradoxes.

Sure it did. The whole baseline of the story is a paradox - just not the "grandfather paradox". You seem to be assuming that such a t, but that's far from true.

Note that whether or not something is a paradox depends on your assumptions. The grandfather paradox - X goes back in time and prevents his own birth - is only a paradox if you assume a non-branching timeline.

Similarly, depending on your assumptions about the world, this story leads to several paradoxes. The most basic one being the ontological paradox - the closed loop nature of the protagonist. Specifically, it contradicts the second law of thermodynamics (see the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_paradox for any explanation).






Praxis

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Reply #29 on: July 05, 2009, 10:00:58 PM
The grandfather paradox - X goes back in time and prevents his own birth - is only a paradox if you assume a non-branching timeline.

Thanks, that's not what I am meaning.

Given the premise, it would be possible for someone, who was a time-traveller, to cause their own events.
In this case, where someone can be a woman and then a man (I was more willing to believe in time-travel that that part, tbh), they can cause events as a woman and a man.

The issue of what 'causes' something could be seen to be a paradox only if you are determined that things have to have causes which happen before the events and, for instance, you can't have closed loops and there must be an 'outside' influence. 
With the introduction of time-travel, that isn't a hurdle anymore.



bolddeceiver

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Reply #30 on: July 05, 2009, 10:17:47 PM
Wow.  I was really excited when I saw the title for ep 200.  I've read the story before, and I remembered it being really amazing.  But honestly, on the revisit I was surprised to find how forced and contrived it felt, not even beginning to mention the uncomfortable societal undertones.   Not the first time that happened with Heinlein; maybe it's just because I read so much RAH in my teens, but most of his stories live in my memory through the eyes of my fifteen-year-old self, and that's a hard thing to live up to.



eytanz

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Reply #31 on: July 05, 2009, 10:36:40 PM
The grandfather paradox - X goes back in time and prevents his own birth - is only a paradox if you assume a non-branching timeline.

Thanks, that's not what I am meaning.

Given the premise, it would be possible for someone, who was a time-traveller, to cause their own events.
In this case, where someone can be a woman and then a man (I was more willing to believe in time-travel that that part, tbh), they can cause events as a woman and a man.

The issue of what 'causes' something could be seen to be a paradox only if you are determined that things have to have causes which happen before the events and, for instance, you can't have closed loops and there must be an 'outside' influence. 
With the introduction of time-travel, that isn't a hurdle anymore.

The temporal flipping of cause and event isn't the relevant paradox. That could happen if tomorrow I invent a time machine, buy a newspaper, look at the lottery numbers for last week's ticket, go back in time and buy the ticket, come back to the present, and cash the ticket. No pardox, even though the cause (learning the numbers) happens after the outcome (buying the ticket).

To see the paradox, imagine the following story - a time travelling self-aware robot goes back from the year 2011 to July 10th, 2009, where it builds itself, then self-destructs. In the year 2012, an asteroid crashes into the Earth, killing all humans. The time travelling robot never taught anyone the time-travel technology, and humanity didn't survive long enough to invent it.

The question is - where did the time-travelling technology come from? The robot knew it, so it built it into itself. But no-one else knew it, no-one invented it. It only existed as part of a closed loop. For that matter, the same is true of self-aware AI technology in this story. Humanity couldn't have invented it.

Now, note that this story could have happened at any time and any place. A time-travelling robot came into existence on the moon in the year 1132, and existed there until 1212, at which point it went back in time. It didn't even have to build itself, it just shows up and waits 80 years to travel back. It interacts with nothing, and affects nothing. It doesn't even move, and it hovers above the surface of the moon using anti-gravity technology, so it doesn't even displace moon dust. Where did it come from? Why was there a robot in the middle ages?

This is a paradox; it's not that the order of cause and effect is reversed that is the problem. The problem is that the cause and the effect are one and the same. Which is a basic problem in what we think of causality.

This made me realize, by the way, that the story is entirely biologically plausible. Humans can be self-impregnating hermaphrodites, but then, the hero of the story isn't really human. He's a being that was created ex-nihilo, and there's no reason to think that he would share anything of human genetics. It's actually the fact that he looks and acts human that's totally implausible. Of all the things that could just randomly appear out of nothing in the universe, I would think it would be quite unlikely that a human would be one of them. And, if a human was randomly created in this vast universe, it would be an staggeringly massive coincidence if he/she happened to appear on Earth, where all the other humans are.




deflective

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Reply #32 on: July 05, 2009, 11:13:13 PM
...you can't have closed loops and there must be an 'outside' influence. 

it's not not really relevant to anyone's point but i want to point out that 'closed loop' is a misnomer for this time traveler.

in order to be a closed loop there has to be a 'where did you come from? where did you go?' element to it.  eg, one day you find a manual that explains how to build a time machine and when when you finish building the machine you send the manual back so you can find it.  the manual doesn't exist before or after the loop.

Jane has the 'where did you come from?' but still exists after going back to create himself.

But it didn't have any paradoxes.

i think i see where you're coming from.  the traditional time paradox can be expressed as: α implies notβ, but notβ implies notα.  eg: if i was born then i kill my grandfather but if my grandfather was killed then i can't be born.

certainly nothing in this plot takes that form.

what we have instead is the implication that if there are circumstances that allow something to exist, it can exist.  this already qualifies for some broader definitions of paradox but at a minimum it calls to question why we don't become swamped under the weight of spontaneously created items.



eytanz

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Reply #33 on: July 05, 2009, 11:38:40 PM
This made me realize, by the way, that the story is entirely biologically plausible. Humans can be self-impregnating hermaphrodites, but then, the hero of the story isn't really human. He's a being that was created ex-nihilo, and there's no reason to think that he would share anything of human genetics.

i'm never sure how to react when people say they came up with an idea that i've just mentioned in a thread.  it happens to me pretty consistently.  understandable when it's well back in an old thread but it usually isn't.

i like to think that my ideas are so grand that it takes a little while for it to sink in. =)  yeah... gotta be it.

Hmm... Good question, actually - I did read your earlier comment, several hours before I posted the above. I certainly wasn't conciously thinking of it when I posted, but it could well have been that your post put that thought somewhere in my head and I was reminded of it, rather than came up with it on my own.



Zathras

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Reply #34 on: July 06, 2009, 12:38:34 AM
This story explains how the Universe could have been created. 



MacArthurBug

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Reply #35 on: July 06, 2009, 12:49:29 AM
Yay! (that is all)

Oh, great and mighty Alasdair, Orator Maleficent, He of the Silvered Tongue, guide this humble fangirl past jumping up and down and squeeing upon hearing the greatness of Thy voice.
Oh mighty Mur the Magnificent. I am not worthy.


Darwinist

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Reply #36 on: July 06, 2009, 01:38:52 AM
Not a big Heinlein guy but I love time travel stories and really liked Ep 200.  Had to listen twice to catch everything.   Another keeper.  Thanks EP! 

The outro really hit home also.  My wife and I have introduced our kids to good sci-fi and my wife (a science teacher) has got some of her students going on some of the classics and tries to work ideas in to her lesson plans.  Great message Steve!

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


Praxis

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Reply #37 on: July 06, 2009, 11:24:05 PM
I didn't say 'flipping' of cause and effect but rather the order of those events can be different if we have time travel.

I agree with scrapping the 'closed loop' label since it's not as if any (version) of the main character suddenly just appeared like *bing* there is suddenly an abandoned baby or barman or hermaphrodite.  In each of the times the character lives he/she is part of the world and is influenced by it.

And again, it's not a paradox for something to be its own influence (if we have time travel).
You might as well say the universe is a paradox, in the absence of an outside cause.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 11:26:35 PM by Praxis »



wakela

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Reply #38 on: July 07, 2009, 05:05:50 AM
Great episode ... interesting how many people are not Heilein fans (myself included).

I had already read it, so I caught some funny foreshadowing...
"A guy came into the bar.  About my hieght."
"He looks like anyone.  Like you or me." (IIRC)



OsamaBinLondon

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Reply #39 on: July 07, 2009, 08:06:45 AM
Although I have not read a Heinlein in some time, this story came as a powerful reminder of why I loved and read so much of his stuff in my early years discovering Science fiction stories.  What a phenomenal peice of work. 



Father Beast

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Reply #40 on: July 07, 2009, 03:50:12 PM
That's what  get for not really paying attention to dates in stories.  This one snuck up behind me, ripped out my brain, and showed it to me. 

Excellent number 200.  Who do we get for number 300, Clarke?

Well, they are the holy trinity-

Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke.



DKT

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Reply #41 on: July 07, 2009, 08:47:27 PM
That's what  get for not really paying attention to dates in stories.  This one snuck up behind me, ripped out my brain, and showed it to me. 

Excellent number 200.  Who do we get for number 300, Clarke?

Well, they are the holy trinity-

Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke.

Must. Have. Bradbury!!!


DKT

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Reply #42 on: July 07, 2009, 08:48:27 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed this. I'd never heard it before. Steve's narration absolutely crackled with excitement while he read this. Great job.

And I'm very glad a rock band stole the title of this story  ;D It really is a great title.

EDIT: Ack! Guess it's just a song title, not a band name. SHAME!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 06:39:59 AM by DKT »



Yargling

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Reply #43 on: July 07, 2009, 09:21:54 PM
I've heard of this story, but this is the first time I've read/heard it. Interesting story, although I'm curious: why does he call everyone not from his own closed loop a zombie?



Talia

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Reply #44 on: July 07, 2009, 09:40:48 PM
Yargling, go back a page or two, I asked the same question and got a few different answers :)



Yargling

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Reply #45 on: July 07, 2009, 09:51:41 PM
Yargling, go back a page or two, I asked the same question and got a few different answers :)

Ahhh, found it - nice explaination, heh.



WolfDeca

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Reply #46 on: July 08, 2009, 11:50:24 AM
Loved this story! I always like time-travel stories, the more convoluted, the better.

Only thing I didn't quite understand, though, was how Jane-as-man got to impregnate Jane-as-woman. Young, female Jane was innocent in this, since she didn't know she'd ever turn out to be a man, but male Jane knew he'd been a woman, remembered - I hope - what he looked like as a woman, since apparently it'd caused her so much grief, so he'd recognise himself wooing himself, right? And it's not like they had a one-night-stand. He had nearly a whole month to come to the right conclusion and not be shocked to be 'that man' when the barman reappeared. And any newspaper could confirm the time-travel.

So, what gives?




Doom xombie

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Reply #47 on: July 08, 2009, 02:30:42 PM
Loved this story! I always like time-travel stories, the more convoluted, the better.

Only thing I didn't quite understand, though, was how Jane-as-man got to impregnate Jane-as-woman. Young, female Jane was innocent in this, since she didn't know she'd ever turn out to be a man, but male Jane knew he'd been a woman, remembered - I hope - what he looked like as a woman, since apparently it'd caused her so much grief, so he'd recognise himself wooing himself, right? And it's not like they had a one-night-stand. He had nearly a whole month to come to the right conclusion and not be shocked to be 'that man' when the barman reappeared. And any newspaper could confirm the time-travel.

So, what gives?



IDK if im understanding your problem right but I think your asking why he didn't know he was wooing his female self. The thing is that he did, in one sentence he even says its unsettling to find out you can't help but woo yourself. So the premise there is that, in fact you can't help it. You have very valid points but that was the idea i believe.

Anyways, I also disliked the whore corps. As I've expressed in previous stories I like the happen-able element to a story. This just seems like it would never happen. Oh and i think we all have our own trinities even if they do share an author or two... or three.

Look its a signature! And a dragon!





WolfDeca

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Reply #48 on: July 08, 2009, 03:49:25 PM
IDK if im understanding your problem right but I think your asking why he didn't know he was wooing his female self. The thing is that he did, in one sentence he even says its unsettling to find out you can't help but woo yourself. So the premise there is that, in fact you can't help it. You have very valid points but that was the idea i believe.

Ah, I looked up the written text and I can see where I may have gotten the wrong impression. Jane-man is badly shaken by what the barman says, and I thought it was because he only just realised what had been going on, while it's possible he only just realised that he was his own kid and also the younger version of the barman, while the whole 'I'm having a relationship with myself!' issue was already settled. :)

That just makes him a lousy guy, though. I don't believe in 'you can't help yourself' for the long term, and he might've just used a condom to save herself the trouble - unless he decided he LIKED how his life turned out and intentionally impregnated his younger self so she'd suffer the things that made him him. Or maybe was scared of how ELSE things would turn out if he changed something? Aaahh, short stories and their low word-count!




Russell Nash

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Reply #49 on: July 08, 2009, 07:12:40 PM
Quote
I felt a headache coming on, but a headache powder is one thing I do not take. I did once—and you all went away.

What did this part mean?