Character Race Discussion split from EP208

[Praxis]

Neil Gaiman has said he purposely didn't specifically say that Shadow was black in "American Gods"; I figured it out,

From what/when, if you don't mind me asking?

[Raving_Lunatic]

I always assumed he was black. Then again, I haven't read Gaiman in a while, and I read Anansi Boys before - Shadow reminded me of Spider in ways which is why I built that image of him

[Listener]

Neil Gaiman has said he purposely didn't specifically say that Shadow was black in "American Gods"; I figured it out,

From what/when, if you don't mind me asking?

I honestly don't remember when he said it, but he said something to the effect of: yes, Shadow is black, and no, I didn't say that in the book.

[eytanz]

I can't find any online reference to Gaiman saying that.

In chapter 1 of American Gods, one of the prison guards asks Shadow what he is. He asks (using ethnic slurs) whether Shadow is hispanic, and when Shadow says he doesn't know, the guard says "Maybe you've got [n-word] blood in you".

I'm pretty sure that if Shadow was black, then the "maybe" wouldn't belong in that sentence.

[Praxis]

I honestly don't remember when he said it, but he said something to the effect of: yes, Shadow is black, and no, I didn't say that in the book.

Oh, no I meant from what/when in the book.  I was interested as I don't remember any clues.

[Boggled Coriander]

Nice timing here - I'm currently reading American Gods, about 150 pages in.  When I saw this discussion I immediately went back and reread Shadow's discussion with the prison guard, Mr. Racial Sensitivity, in chapter 1.  First time through, it led me to picture Shadow as maybe mixed-race, maybe a swarthy white guy, but I can see the potential for misdirection there.  Especially if the guard's just being a racist asshole.

But now I'm on the alert and keeping my eyes open for subtle clues.

I'm guessing this discussion is going to get spun off into its own thread.

[stePH]

Neil Gaiman has said he purposely didn't specifically say that Shadow was black in "American Gods"; I figured it out, but it wasn't important. It just was.

Hell, there's not really any overt reference to Fat Charlie being black in Anansi Boys.

(Incidentally I learned on another board that it's currently International Blog Against Racism Week.)

[Listener]

Neil Gaiman has said he purposely didn't specifically say that Shadow was black in "American Gods"; I figured it out, but it wasn't important. It just was.

Hell, there's not really any overt reference to Fat Charlie being black in Anansi Boys.

(Incidentally I learned on another board that it's currently International Blog Against Racism Week.)

Re: Fat Charlie -- again, I don't know where I read it (and I SWEAR I'm not making this stuff up), but I read something Gaiman said about when he wrote Anansi Boys, with Charlie being black, he didn't refer to himself as having dark skin, and Gaiman only referred to characters' skin colors when they were not black.

If anyone can find something that indicates I'm mis-remembering things Gaiman said, I will gladly recant... I'm just going off dim memories here.

[stePH]

I just figured Fat Charlie was black because I knew he was Anansi's son, and I remembered Anansi from American Gods.  Also I was listening to the audio version read by Lenny Henry (who did an awesome voice for Spider.)

[Sandikal]

Am I just completely stupid and ignorant?  I never gave a thought to Shadow's race in American Gods.  I thought he was white because he was Odin's son and Odin is a Norse god.

[stePH]

Am I just completely stupid and ignorant?  I never gave a thought to Shadow's race in American Gods.  I thought he was white because he was Odin's son and Odin is a Norse god.

I never gave a thought to his race either; and I just sort of assumed he was white.

[Listener]

Am I just completely stupid and ignorant?  I never gave a thought to Shadow's race in American Gods.  I thought he was white because he was Odin's son and Odin is a Norse god.

In the beginning I thought he was white but dark-skinned (ie: Mediterranean, Middle-Eastern).

I think we have a tendency to see main characters the same race as us unless it is spelled out that they have a certain skin color. And in SF/F/H, that skin color very well could be green.

I have one story in which the main character's lover is black. I think I reference his color once (if that) because the MC doesn't THINK about that. She looks at him and sees Brian the whole person, not Brian the black man who has a shaved head and wears suits to work.

If Odin is white, then Shadow is likely of mixed-race but self-identifies as black because his mother was black. I sometimes wonder what my daughter's best friend will self-identify as (she's only 2.5 now, so she self-identifies as "Caitlin"): she is mixed-race, though until her mother told me, I thought her father was just naturally dark-skinned -- he is black, but has quite light skin in that spectrum.

[Alasdair5000]

I just figured Fat Charlie was black because I knew he was Anansi's son, and I remembered Anansi from American Gods.  Also I was listening to the audio version read by Lenny Henry (who did an awesome voice for Spider.)

I have a vague memory of Gaiman saying he'd based Fat Charlie and Anansi on Lenny Henry a little.  If so, I can't say I blame him, for a very large guy he's a phenomenally snappy dresser:)

[eytanz]

If Odin is white, then Shadow is likely of mixed-race but self-identifies as black because his mother was black. I sometimes wonder what my daughter's best friend will self-identify as (she's only 2.5 now, so she self-identifies as "Caitlin"): she is mixed-race, though until her mother told me, I thought her father was just naturally dark-skinned -- he is black, but has quite light skin in that spectrum.

He never self-identifies as black in the entire story. The closest he comes to that is agreeing that it's likely he might have black blood in him, in the conversation with the prison guard. And that was after several points where it was explicitly mentioned that in jail, Shadow wouldn't challenge authority; so it's not even clear if he really believes the guard or is just echoing him.

Googling this question, I found several references to the book referring to him as "olive skinned", but I haven't found any such example in the actual book so far.

[DKT]

Neil Gaiman has said he purposely didn't specifically say that Shadow was black in "American Gods"; I figured it out, but it wasn't important. It just was.

Hell, there's not really any overt reference to Fat Charlie being black in Anansi Boys.

(Incidentally I learned on another board that it's currently International Blog Against Racism Week.)

Re: Fat Charlie -- again, I don't know where I read it (and I SWEAR I'm not making this stuff up), but I read something Gaiman said about when he wrote Anansi Boys, with Charlie being black, he didn't refer to himself as having dark skin, and Gaiman only referred to characters' skin colors when they were not black.

If anyone can find something that indicates I'm mis-remembering things Gaiman said, I will gladly recant... I'm just going off dim memories here.

I'm not sure if this interview with Gaiman and Susanna Clarke is what you're referring to, but he certainly says in regards to Anansi Boys he says:

If you look carefully, you'll notice that all the white characters are described as being white. If you're raised in comics, when you go to prose, you think about all the things you can do in prose that you can't do in comics. And one thing is that in comics you can see what everybody looks like immediately. So I thought, I wonder what I can do with that? It's happening in people's heads. I wonder if I can write a book in which almost everybody is black, and play completely fair -- it's not a trick or anything -- but I'm just not going to say "Fat Charlie was a black 33-year-old" because you don't start a book saying "Fat Charlie was a white 33-year-old." You'll have to pick up on cues, and they will all be given.

Also, I have to echo stePH that Lenny Henry's reading of Anansi Boys is awesome, and he absolutely nails Spider's voice.

[Boggled Coriander]

Well, with just a little way to go in "American Gods," here's what I noticed in my reading:

- When Shadow's watching his own mother's death when he was a kid, he sees his younger self with "acne pocking his cream-and-coffee skin".  Also his mom's got sickle-cell disease, which is far more common among people with African heritage, although that by itself doesn't prove anything, of course.

- On the other hand, Whiskey Jack describes Shadow and Wednesday as "two white men."  Maybe "white" is his generic term for non-Native American.

- But on the other hand, when Shadow and Sam first meet and Sam tells him "White people have some fucked-up gods," I took that to mean "white people as distinct from you and me". 

Overall, going mostly on that "cream-and-coffee skin", I'd say Shadow's mixed-race with some African heritage mixed in there.  Sure he has one totally white parent, but so does Barack Obama. 

[Listener]

I'm not sure if this interview with Gaiman and Susanna Clarke is what you're referring to, but he certainly says in regards to Anansi Boys he says:

If you look carefully, you'll notice that all the white characters are described as being white. If you're raised in comics, when you go to prose, you think about all the things you can do in prose that you can't do in comics. And one thing is that in comics you can see what everybody looks like immediately. So I thought, I wonder what I can do with that? It's happening in people's heads. I wonder if I can write a book in which almost everybody is black, and play completely fair -- it's not a trick or anything -- but I'm just not going to say "Fat Charlie was a black 33-year-old" because you don't start a book saying "Fat Charlie was a white 33-year-old." You'll have to pick up on cues, and they will all be given.

That's the one.