Author Topic: EP213: A Monkey Will Never Get Rid of Its Black Hands  (Read 30675 times)

kibitzer

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Reply #25 on: August 31, 2009, 03:17:19 AM
Me, I liked this one. It's the first RS story I've heard/read (that I can remember). Might have to go hunt up some more.

Curiously, I identified best with Mammadu (sp?) when he was wondering why the hell these people were interfering so with his life. How dare they set him up with people and situations he wanted nothing to do with? I wasn't expecting him to change his mind. Hmm. Maybe there's a message in there for me... something like, if enough people/friends tell you you're being a dick, you're being a dick.

Was it sci-fi? Who cares? It was certainly speculative fiction. I liked it. I'd be fascinated to know what prompted the theme and the premise.


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Reply #26 on: August 31, 2009, 06:10:25 PM
This story was awesome. I loved it. It really got to me.



Nobilis

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Reply #27 on: August 31, 2009, 06:23:15 PM
Dead boring.  Disliked everyone.  Shut off at the 25 minute mark when I had had my fill of people being either cruel or surly. 



Russell Nash

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Reply #28 on: August 31, 2009, 06:32:52 PM
Dead boring.  Disliked everyone.  Shut off at the 25 minute mark when I had had my fill of people being either cruel or surly. 

That's pretty harsh words for you.



Nobilis

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Reply #29 on: August 31, 2009, 06:38:05 PM
Dead boring.  Disliked everyone.  Shut off at the 25 minute mark when I had had my fill of people being either cruel or surly. 

That's pretty harsh words for you.

I admit freely that I enjoy science fiction for escapism.

I want to HAVE FUN dammit.

I don't need to be preached to and I don't need to be lectured.  I know that disabled people can be real bastards sometimes and the people who take care of them can be meddlesome busybodies, thank you very much.

When I go for nearly a half an hour wondering WHEN oh WHEN is someone going to drop a bomb on the whole batch and put them out of their misery, I stop listening.  It's just not worth the investment.

Whatever happened to "Have Fun"?



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Reply #30 on: August 31, 2009, 08:12:54 PM
Dead boring.  Disliked everyone.  Shut off at the 25 minute mark when I had had my fill of people being either cruel or surly. 
Nobilis' reaction doesn't surprise me. It was that kind of story. I had the same kind of reaction to the film Schindler's List. Everybody told me how much I should like it because...(insert trite bromide here). Writers can tell people their POV but they can't make readers accept it. It's a risk authors and those that publish them have to take.



gelee

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Reply #31 on: August 31, 2009, 08:14:47 PM
I suppose there's more to good fiction than escapism and wish fulfillment. I love a fun story as much as anyone, but I think fiction, of any genre, is at it's best when it prompts us to think a bit.



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Reply #32 on: August 31, 2009, 10:16:41 PM
As to whether or not this piece is sci fi, I think this is a perfectly sound bit of spec fic. Not sure I understand  what the fuss is about.

Well, since you make the distinction yourself, it might be 'speculative fiction' and not SciFi. 
Like I said, I enjoyed the story, but it wasn't SciFi, which is what Escape Pod does.



scatterbrain

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Reply #33 on: August 31, 2009, 10:24:36 PM
Excellent story. ;D I consider it science fiction because it does what science fiction does best: it takes current trends and follows and extrapolates them into a different course, in the vein of every science fiction writer from Asimov to Wells.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 10:26:31 PM by scatterbrain »



Praxis

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Reply #34 on: August 31, 2009, 10:50:17 PM
Excellent story. ;D I consider it science fiction because it does what science fiction does best: it takes current trends and follows and extrapolates them into a different course, in the vein of every science fiction writer from Asimov to Wells.

In which case you could have fantasy stories that would then be classifiable as science fiction.
Being in a changed setting or having a changed history isn't enough to be 'sci fi'



gelee

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Reply #35 on: August 31, 2009, 11:54:48 PM
Excellent story. ;D I consider it science fiction because it does what science fiction does best: it takes current trends and follows and extrapolates them into a different course, in the vein of every science fiction writer from Asimov to Wells.

In which case you could have fantasy stories that would then be classifiable as science fiction.
Being in a changed setting or having a changed history isn't enough to be 'sci fi'
OK.  Would you have called in Sci Fi if it had been set on an orbital platform, or if the war were being fought in a distant solar system rather than the mid east?  At the heart of Sci Fi is "what if?" and "I wonder...".  Scatterbrain is spot on.  It doesn't need space ships and nannites to be Sci Fi.  Anyway, Spec is just a flavor of Sci Fi, like Space Opera or Military.  The defining attribute of, for me at least, fantasy is the element of magic.  So no, I see no way to get from that to anything I would call SF. 



Praxis

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Reply #36 on: September 01, 2009, 12:42:18 AM
Would you have called in Sci Fi if it had been set on an orbital platform, or if the war were being fought in a distant solar system rather than the mid east?

Very probably, yes.   :P

At the heart of Sci Fi is "what if?" and "I wonder...". 
    Like I said, that would mean a lot of other types of story could be classed as Sci Fi.

The defining attribute of, for me at least, fantasy is the element of magic.  So no, I see no way to get from that to anything I would call SF. 

I appreciate what you say about genres having a defining attribute or element (like saying fantasy = magic of some form).  I'm confused why you'd say that should have such a specific (and I agree, too, by the way) element to it but then say that 'science fiction' can be a story that has a central element of 'what if?'

As I see it, (just) being different or from a diverging history would make a story and setting different, sure, but I wouldn't then class that as Sci Fi.



Praxis

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Reply #37 on: September 01, 2009, 12:45:27 AM
It doesn't need space ships and nannites to be Sci Fi. 

I agree but a story does, imo, need at least something relating to some sort of science or technological development (and possibly then the social/cultural changes that would then occur). 



deflective

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Reply #38 on: September 01, 2009, 01:20:14 AM
i'm glad that ep ran this story.  it wasn't really my thing but it's different than normal and variety keeps things interesting.  wouldn't want stories this preachy on a regular basis though.

if nothing else it gives us an excuse to rehash our personal definitions of the genre and that's always good for a couple pages of comments.  maybe some of the fresh faces from the blog have a different take on it.

one thing that struck me was the reading.  pseudopod does an excellent job of matching the right reader to the story, several simple ghost stories were made very compelling by the performance.  a big part of this is getting a reader from the right region.

Alasdair5000 is a favourite of many listeners but this story was thoroughly american and it would have benefited for an american accent.



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Reply #39 on: September 01, 2009, 02:24:22 AM
one thing that struck me was the reading.  pseudopod does an excellent job of matching the right reader to the story, several simple ghost stories were made very compelling by the performance.  a big part of this is getting a reader from the right region.

Alasdair5000 is a favourite of many listeners but this story was thoroughly american and it would have benefited for an american accent.

I've been almost uniformly impressed with the narrators on PseudoPod, but there have been a couple of stories where the accent didn't quite match up with the story.  I remember a few PseudoPods that left me with the strong impression the story was set on the opposite side of the Atlantic from where the narrator was from 

I grew up in the area where "The Skull-Faced Boy" is set, and the accent the narrator gave some of the local characters is totally inappropriate.  I can forgive that, because the narrator did a fantastic job otherwise.

Alasdair was far from the most obvious person to read this story, but he did a good job with it.  Although I am beginning to wonder how a different narrator's take on it would be...

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Reply #40 on: September 01, 2009, 03:07:19 AM
There was a lot going on in this story. there was the analysis of what it is like to take care of people, and to need to be taken care of.  but also, i though, a really bleak picture of world at war. i am not sure how accurate that picture is. i liked the setup, which, by giving the characters a past in  Seirra Leone, reminded me that on a global level, conflict is non-stop. i though it painted a pretty chilling picture of how violence begets violence.
what i find far-fetched is that there are that many people in America who value blind patriotism so far ahead of family.

 



DaveNJ

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Reply #41 on: September 01, 2009, 05:22:21 AM
I've read The Man in the High Castle. This ain't The Man in the High Castle.

Part of the problem with alternate history pieces is that it's hard to get a really accurate barometer of history without a lot of hindsight. Philip K. wrote his novella in  1962, almost two decades after the end of WWII. There's just not nearly enough historical perspective to pull off a similarly nuanced look at current wars. It'll inherently fall sort of flat because we still haven't really decided our collective attitude toward these conflicts.

I enjoyed the use of the traditional phrases as framing devices, but not much else. The story never reaches any transcendent highs, but it never bottoms out completely either. Solid enough from the execution standpoint, but I just don't think the concept works.

That said I still think it's sci-fi.



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Reply #42 on: September 01, 2009, 05:33:04 AM
As to whether or not this piece is sci fi, I think this is a perfectly sound bit of spec fic. Not sure I understand  what the fuss is about.

Well, since you make the distinction yourself, it might be 'speculative fiction' and not SciFi. 
Like I said, I enjoyed the story, but it wasn't SciFi, which is what Escape Pod does.

So, another 6 months has gone by.  Let me dust off my old rant and put it here.

EP started as a Spec. Fic. market.  That's big SF not sf.  Ever since then EP and then PP and finally PC have done their bests to expand the borders of not only SF, but their individual niches.  At the EA podcasts a story does not fall through the cracks, because it doesn't fit perfectly into one of the big three categories. 

Whether or not a story belongs on one of the podcasts depends solely on whether or not the editor of that podcast points at it and says, "I want to run that."  Arguments over classification of stories are DOA in these forums. 

Edit: OK sleep and cooler heads have prevailed.  Our policy of moving longer tangents and SF/nonSF discussions to our Gallimaufry board was out of place here.  When this post was originally made, I was not aware that Al had started the discussion in the outro.  Those of you who complained to me were right.  And those of you who have been here for a while know that I don't normally do such strong moderation unless I know I'm right.  When in doubt, I call in the other mods.  In general the SF/nonSF discussion is still a non-starter in the story comments.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 05:43:24 AM by Russell Nash »



kibitzer

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Reply #43 on: September 01, 2009, 11:08:57 AM
I thought this sounded like an old argument.


Boggled Coriander

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Reply #44 on: September 01, 2009, 12:18:48 PM
I'm interested by discussions of what is and is not SF, and where (or whether) the boundary should be drawn between science fiction and fantasy.  But I seem to enjoy those discussions more when they're in the abstract.  Because whenever someone asks whether story X counts as SF or not, my reaction is always to cheerfully shrug my shoulders and say, "Sure, it's SF. Why not?"

I know.  Some help I am.   :(

I'm actually still not sure if I like this particular story.  It's well-written, and as shtick put it, there's a lot going on in it.  I'd have to give it another listen to really figure out if I like it or not.  But it depicts a world where the US is involved in a destructive pan-Middle Eastern war, and some of the chief props in American right-versus-left political culture are a bunch of people with deliberately amputated limbs.  That's different from my world.  Sure it belongs on Escape Pod.  There's no uncertainty in my mind.

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lowky

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Reply #45 on: September 01, 2009, 01:13:03 PM
I've read The Man in the High Castle. This ain't The Man in the High Castle.

Part of the problem with alternate history pieces is that it's hard to get a really accurate barometer of history without a lot of hindsight. Philip K. wrote his novella in  1962, almost two decades after the end of WWII. There's just not nearly enough historical perspective to pull off a similarly nuanced look at current wars. It'll inherently fall sort of flat because we still haven't really decided our collective attitude toward these conflicts.

I enjoyed the use of the traditional phrases as framing devices, but not much else. The story never reaches any transcendent highs, but it never bottoms out completely either. Solid enough from the execution standpoint, but I just don't think the concept works.

That said I still think it's sci-fi.

Personally I think a similar setting for Vietnam might have worked a little better, the attitude of Blind Patriotism (or the opposite) hold true.  Look how we treated Vietnam veterans.  Spit at, ignored at best etc.  At least people seem to support our troops even if they don't support the war this time in America.  As for the Blind Patriotism, when 9/11 first happened I heard a lot of statements from people who felt that treating people who didn't want to fight this way would almost be appropriate.  People were all wanting to sign up as soon as they were able.  It wasn't until the morass in Iraq that America lost the support for the "War on Terror" 


ajames

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Reply #46 on: September 02, 2009, 12:12:32 AM
Whether or not a story belongs on one of the podcasts depends solely on whether or not the editor of that podcast points at it and says, "I want to run that."  Arguments over classification of stories are DOA in these forums. 

One of the things I've always enjoyed about EscapePod is that the intros and outros to the stories were often sources of great interest in themselves and sparked some interesting discussions. I'm not that interested in this particular discussion, as it has been done to death, but I'm not crazy about the precedent of bringing up a topic in the outtro and then declaring it DOA in the forums, either. Alisdair noted that some people were probably wondering why this story was run, and then argued that it "tapped into the vein of great science fiction." Maybe I've got the wrong idea about what forums are supposed to be, but that seems like an invitation to discussion to me. He didn't say that it was run because an editor pointed to it and said "I want to run that." If he had, that would be a very different matter.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 05:54:07 PM by Russell Nash »



gelee

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Reply #47 on: September 02, 2009, 03:18:36 AM
Well put. Whether this piece belongs on EP or not is, I think, a perfectly valid point of discussion.



Russell Nash

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Reply #48 on: September 02, 2009, 05:08:03 AM
Go ahead and start a discussion in the SF discussion board or Gallimaufry and link to it from here, but as you said the conversation has been done to death in the episode threads.  It has always lead to a screamfest that shouted out discussion of the story.


Edit: If you didn't see my edit a few posts back, please read it before commenting.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2009, 05:46:02 AM by Russell Nash »



Prank Call of Cthulhu

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Reply #49 on: September 02, 2009, 10:02:41 AM
When Alasdair indicated that he'd be reading the story, I just about hit the "Skip" button.
MOD: Removed unnecessary and insulting language.

But I didn't. I decided to give it a try. Should have gone with my first inclination. "Somebody cut off my hands because I wouldn't go in the army and it made me sad and screwed up my relationships"
MOD: Did it again.  Let's just say he wasn't happy with this one.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 10:25:49 AM by Russell Nash »