Author Topic: Should there be an 'and' EP216: βoyfriend  (Read 6342 times)

Clear Air Turbulence

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 2
on: September 22, 2009, 01:40:42 AM
Well, I don't want the sort who registers just to criticize, but..

I enjoy Escape Pod; I hadn't listened to it for several months but just came back. I've noticed the last few episodes that the voice at the beginning says "Episode two hundred AND sixteen".

What's that AND doing there? I'm certain Sister Mary Mara told me that was incorrect. Am I being too pedantic?

(Fun story, anyway.)



Kaa

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 618
  • Trusst in me, jusst in me.
    • WriteWright
Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 02:00:42 AM
Am I being too pedantic?

TOO PEDANTIC? For an Internet forum? Surely, young...person whose gender is indeterminate, you've learned by now that there is no such thing. :)

I invent imaginary people and make them have conversations in my head. I also write.

About writing || About Atheism and Skepticism (mostly) || About Everything Else


lowky

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2717
  • from http://lovecraftismissing.com/?page_id=3142
Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 02:17:13 AM
Well, I don't want the sort who registers just to criticize, but..

I enjoy Escape Pod; I hadn't listened to it for several months but just came back. I've noticed the last few episodes that the voice at the beginning says "Episode two hundred AND sixteen".

What's that AND doing there? I'm certain Sister Mary Mara told me that was incorrect. Am I being too pedantic?

(Fun story, anyway.)

I also think it might be different depending on Country.  I think we drop the and in America, but not sure on the Brits.  The Chinese English teachers put the and in.  So does the computer courseware at the English learning center I work at.  It annoys me.  I told the students that in America we were taught not to put and in there.  They of course want to put it all over it.  I told them if they use and they can only put it for the tens and nowhere else.  otherwise you wind up with one million and 5 hundred and 45 thousand, 3 hundred and 32 for example.



Heradel

  • Bill Peters, EP Assistant
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2938
  • Part-Time Psychopomp.
Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 03:13:38 AM
Well, I don't want the sort who registers just to criticize, but..

I enjoy Escape Pod; I hadn't listened to it for several months but just came back. I've noticed the last few episodes that the voice at the beginning says "Episode two hundred AND sixteen".

What's that AND doing there? I'm certain Sister Mary Mara told me that was incorrect. Am I being too pedantic?

(Fun story, anyway.)

I also think it might be different depending on Country.  I think we drop the and in America, but not sure on the Brits.  The Chinese English teachers put the and in.  So does the computer courseware at the English learning center I work at.  It annoys me.  I told the students that in America we were taught not to put and in there.  They of course want to put it all over it.  I told them if they use and they can only put it for the tens and nowhere else.  otherwise you wind up with one million and 5 hundred and 45 thousand, 3 hundred and 32 for example.

Using the arbiter of all things, Google, "One hundred and sixteen" begets 2,350,000 results, and "One hundred sixteen" begets a paltry 37,300 results.

However, the most critical fact is that there are One Hundred And One Dalmatians .

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


deflective

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1171
Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 03:51:56 AM
interesting.  i'm not sure what it means, but when you compare "two hundred sixteen"/"two hundred and sixteen" they pretty much even out at 4.5mil each.  for "three hundred sixteen"/"three hundred and sixteen" the and loses by 4.6mil:2.2mil.  it only get worse from there.  so, colloquially, and seems to be acceptable for one and maybe two hundred.

but a vixen like virtual vikki gets away with things the rest of us could only dream of.  man.  flying in the face of recognized english grammar, girl knows how to party.



Jason M

  • Guest
Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 05:00:08 AM
Well, I don't want the sort who registers just to criticize, but..

I enjoy Escape Pod; I hadn't listened to it for several months but just came back. I've noticed the last few episodes that the voice at the beginning says "Episode two hundred AND sixteen".

What's that AND doing there? I'm certain Sister Mary Mara told me that was incorrect. Am I being too pedantic?

(Fun story, anyway.)

I also think it might be different depending on Country.  I think we drop the and in America, but not sure on the Brits.  The Chinese English teachers put the and in.  So does the computer courseware at the English learning center I work at.  It annoys me.  I told the students that in America we were taught not to put and in there.  They of course want to put it all over it.  I told them if they use and they can only put it for the tens and nowhere else.  otherwise you wind up with one million and 5 hundred and 45 thousand, 3 hundred and 32 for example.

Using the arbiter of all things, Google, "One hundred and sixteen" begets 2,350,000 results, and "One hundred sixteen" begets a paltry 37,300 results.

However, the most critical fact is that there are One Hundred And One Dalmatians .

Um, you're going to use Disney to settle this?  How about a real SF source, like Arthur C. Clarke?



Russell Nash

  • Guest
Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 05:20:32 AM
My mother goes nuts over this.  See took accounting in school way back when and it was part of her work on and off for forty-five years.  "And" is only used for "and 25 cents".  Anything else is wrong.  Now the real question is if we let it slip or not.  There are tons of "mistakes" we let slip everyday. 

This one, I think, is a losing battle.  I teach my kids the "right" way, but I hear all of the other parents and the teacher using the "wrong" way.  This is the type of thing that needs to be taught from the beginning.  Trying to change it later rarely works.



izzardfan

  • Guest
Reply #7 on: September 22, 2009, 05:26:43 AM
To me, it's what sounds right.  Star Trek's "To boldly go..." is a split infinitive, but "To go boldly...." just doesn't have the right cadence, so what's wrong actually sounds better.  In the case of the "and" in the episode numbers, I felt it was put there specifically because of the text-to-speech program used to speak those words aloud.  It just doesn't sound right without it, in her voice.

At least that's my opinion.



hautdesert

  • Editor
  • *****
  • Posts: 315
Reply #8 on: September 22, 2009, 12:38:07 PM
To me, it's what sounds right.  Star Trek's "To boldly go..." is a split infinitive, but "To go boldly...." just doesn't have the right cadence, so what's wrong actually sounds better. 

That's because it's not wrong.  There is no reason to avoid so-called "split infinitives" in English.  The "rule" comes from a couple of cranky old guys in the seventeenth century who thought Latin was the ideal language, and since Latin infinitives are one word and therefore you can't jam an adverb in there, you shouldn't do it in English either.  Totally goofy, and nothing whatever to do with actual English.  Same for ending sentences with prepositions--feel free to do so.  Oh, and singular they, too.  Absolutely grammatically fine.  Whether or not it turns up on a grade school English teacher's list of things he'll mark your paper red for is irrelevant.  Really.

As for numbers, when such questions come up, I usually consult Language Log.



Heradel

  • Bill Peters, EP Assistant
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2938
  • Part-Time Psychopomp.
Reply #9 on: September 22, 2009, 02:23:07 PM
To me, it's what sounds right.  Star Trek's "To boldly go..." is a split infinitive, but "To go boldly...." just doesn't have the right cadence, so what's wrong actually sounds better. 

That's because it's not wrong.  There is no reason to avoid so-called "split infinitives" in English.  The "rule" comes from a couple of cranky old guys in the seventeenth century who thought Latin was the ideal language, and since Latin infinitives are one word and therefore you can't jam an adverb in there, you shouldn't do it in English either.  Totally goofy, and nothing whatever to do with actual English.  Same for ending sentences with prepositions--feel free to do so.  Oh, and singular they, too.  Absolutely grammatically fine.  Whether or not it turns up on a grade school English teacher's list of things he'll mark your paper red for is irrelevant.  Really.

As for numbers, when such questions come up, I usually consult Language Log.

If I hadn't caught a second circuit court decision story halfway through my post that would have been the next place I would have looked. Language log is a great blog.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Clear Air Turbulence

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Reply #10 on: September 22, 2009, 04:44:42 PM
You know what really prompted this? Well, every time I hear it, it rankles, but then I think: "Does their text-to-speech application actually throw the 'and' in there automatically, or does someone have to go in and edit the text?"

And I assume the latter, that it's inserted on purpose by someone, and that just rankles more!

Yes, I fully understand this is MY PROBLEM. Yes, I have Fowler's AND the Dictionary of Modern American Usage at home. At least a podcast can't confuse "its" and "it's".



Jason M

  • Guest
Reply #11 on: September 22, 2009, 08:38:26 PM
You should check out this thread and chime in!



Russell Nash

  • Guest
Reply #12 on: September 22, 2009, 09:00:22 PM
You know what really prompted this? Well, every time I hear it, it rankles, but then I think: "Does their text-to-speech application actually throw the 'and' in there automatically, or does someone have to go in and edit the text?"

EP uses the text-to-speech that is built into OSX.  I just did a test.  I typed in "216".  Vicki (that's the name of the voice) "said", "two-hundred and sixteen".  So there's your answer. 

BTW, I#m with you on this one and don't get me started on the over-use of reflexive pronouns.



Raj

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 24
    • Lord of the Moon
Reply #13 on: September 28, 2009, 04:54:44 PM
I think this might be a country thing.  Here in the UK, the 'and' is used, although generally only between the hundreds and tens, so 116 == 'one hundred and sixteen', while 1116 == 'one thousand, one hundred and sixteen'.

http://lordofthemoon.com ; (Former) Editor of TBD magazine: http://tbd.org.uk


Heradel

  • Bill Peters, EP Assistant
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2938
  • Part-Time Psychopomp.
Reply #14 on: September 28, 2009, 06:22:23 PM
We appear to be approaching the english language as if someone sat down in the beginning and figured things out in a logical manner.

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


oddpod

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
Reply #15 on: October 04, 2009, 09:50:26 AM
*door is kicked down and thread is floded whith tear gas*

i clame this thread in the name of  the peopels army for gramatical revoluton!!!

card carying dislexic and  gramatical revolushonery


stePH

  • Actually has enough cowbell.
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3906
  • Cool story, bro!
    • Thetatr0n on SoundCloud
Reply #16 on: October 04, 2009, 03:27:15 PM
We appear to be approaching the english language as if someone sat down in the beginning and figured things out in a logical manner.

Yeah, for realz.  You want a language that was worked out deliberately?  Speak Esperanto.

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


Praxis

  • Guest
Reply #17 on: October 04, 2009, 08:18:57 PM
The 'and' is put in for anything under 100 (at least here in Brit-land, anyways).
So you'd get 1,000,004 being "1 million and 4", or 1005204 being "1 million, 5 thousand, 2 hundred and 4"

I can't say that I've ever gone deliberately looking, but I've never noticed people reading out numbers (in English) in any other way.


[edit:  the 'and' is put in for any whole number or fraction below 100 (so anything beyond the decimal point is 'and' less.  Unless there is another number below 100.  This is getting too complicated. ]
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 08:28:33 PM by Praxis »



Planish

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 772
  • Fun will now commence.
    • northernelectric.ca
Reply #18 on: November 25, 2009, 02:49:21 AM
EP uses the text-to-speech that is built into OSX.  I just did a test.  I typed in "216".  Vicki (that's the name of the voice) "said", "two-hundred and sixteen".  So there's your answer. 
Yeah, voice Vicki has been around since at least System 7 in the late '80s or early '90s or whenever.

I had voice Alex say "EP216: βoyfriend", and it came out "eee pee two one six, boyfriend"

I also tried "216" a couple of times while changing some of the Regional settings in the System Preferences control panel, thinking it might make a difference, but all of them came out "two hundred and sixteen".

I'm still waiting for Vicki to get a voice acting part in one of the stories, and not just the episode opening.

I feed The Pod.
("planish" rhymes with "vanish")


Planish

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 772
  • Fun will now commence.
    • northernelectric.ca
Reply #19 on: November 25, 2009, 02:55:03 AM
*door is kicked down and thread is floded whith tear gas*

i clame this thread in the name of  the peopels army for gramatical revoluton!!!
Suddenly reminded of Downfall of Grammar, on Youtube.
I don't know if the audio is NSFW. It may depend on where you are.

I feed The Pod.
("planish" rhymes with "vanish")