Author Topic: "Podcastle is very feminine"  (Read 33697 times)

Talia

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on: October 09, 2009, 07:05:43 PM
I read this posted elsewhere and am not sure what to make of it. A glance suggests there are a heck of a lot more stories with female protagonists but that might just be my perception.

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eytanz

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Reply #1 on: October 09, 2009, 07:30:30 PM
It's been said before, and indeed was the cause of some negatively toned debates in these forums. As far as I am concerned, any publication will have some sort of editorial bias, whether deliberate or accidental.  What matters to me is that Podcastle runs storys I really enjoy, whether or not I like a particular story doesn't correlate with it's "femininity" either positively or negatively, and in general, I don't feel left out in any way because I'm male.



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Reply #2 on: October 09, 2009, 07:31:21 PM
On an automatic response level, the statement feels fairly true.  On reflection, I suspect there are several underlying reasons.

1) It is hosted by a woman, which means the primary voice associated with the podcasts is female rather than male

2) Fantasy is the "girliest" of the genres, in terms of received wisdom and common knowledge.  "Science fiction" brings up images of manly things like tools and rockets and fighting aliens and Science! and so on.  "Horror" again has connotations of manliness with violence, aggression, and snatching up the fire ax to hit the zombie in the head.  (Plus, the quintessential "horror movie" scene is the scantily-clad young actress screaming as the generally very masculine killer attacks from a camera-POV shot.)  But "fantasy" is all unicorns and witches and cats for familiars and generally has cooties.

I'd be interested if someone did a statistical breakdown of male protagonists versus female protagonists by podcast.  I don't expect there would actually be a significant difference; I suspect it is all psychological smoke and mirrors, misperception driven by expectations and cultural biases.



Swamp

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Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 08:54:56 PM
It's been said before, and indeed was the cause of some negatively toned debates in these forums. As far as I am concerned, any publication will have some sort of editorial bias, whether deliberate or accidental.  What matters to me is that Podcastle runs storys I really enjoy, whether or not I like a particular story doesn't correlate with it's "femininity" either positively or negatively, and in general, I don't feel left out in any way because I'm male.

I am in complete agreement with every bit of eytanz's statement here.

And, yes, this has been discussed before.  I know many are new to the forums, and you can look back to those discussions.  I don't think Talia's starting this post was meant to open old wounds, but let's be careful not to attract the wolves.

But "fantasy" is all unicorns and witches and cats for familiars and generally has cooties

I think you are right that that is the general outside perception, but I think PodCastle has done a great job of proving that not to be the case.

I'd be interested if someone did a statistical breakdown of male protagonists versus female protagonists by podcast.

Personally, I wouldn't.  The way I see it, you either like the majority of the stories or you don't.

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Heradel

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Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 09:43:50 PM
Actually, Rachel ran the numbers a few weeks ago and the male/female protagonist ratio was something like 53/47, though I'm not sure if it was 53 male 47 female or the other way around, and whichever way that went the author ratio went the other way by nearly the same slight margin. Either way, not a huge difference. I'm not sure about EP or PP's male/female protagonist ratio, but SF as a whole seems to trend towards male protagonists (Han Solo, Luke, Hiro Protagonist, Kirk, Spock, the all-male cast of 2001, etc.). A more even split would probably seem more feminine.

Actually, that same time I was talking to Rachel we both couldn't remember a Podcastle story that included a Unicorn.

But yes, we've had the "is Podcastle sexist about men" argument back when it was too young for the question to be anything but silly, and it's about as silly now.

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Reply #5 on: October 09, 2009, 10:05:40 PM
Personally, I wouldn't.  The way I see it, you either like the majority of the stories or you don't.

Specifically in terms of settling the "more feminine" discussion with at least some sort of mathematical basis.  At that point, we can see if Pod Castle really is more feminine (or at least features more women) than the other pods.  If it is, then we can wonder why that might be.  If it isn't, we can see why it has that impression.  (And it does; I definitely *feel* like it's "more feminine," and that makes me wonder *why* I feel that way.)



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Reply #6 on: October 10, 2009, 02:15:13 AM
I tend to agree, not sure what exactly it was about Podcastle but something with it turned me off a little, whether it is that PC feels more feminine, or what I'm not sure.  I haven't stopped downloading, but I have a huge backlog, as there always seems to be something I would rather listen to more.  It could just be that alot of the type of fantasy I like has more in common with Weird Tales.  I like the adventure story type fantasy.  Conan, Fritz Leiber (would love to see some Fafhard and Gray Mouser tales written by anyone at this point), to a lesser extent Tarzan, and their kith and kin.  I also like the John Norman Gor books for for the same reason--Adventure.  (If Podcastle is truly feminist, I think mentioning a fondness of the Gor books will get me drawn and quartered)


Talia

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Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 06:25:23 AM


I am in complete agreement with every bit of eytanz's statement here.

And, yes, this has been discussed before.  I know many are new to the forums, and you can look back to those discussions.  I don't think Talia's starting this post was meant to open old wounds, but let's be careful not to attract the wolves.

er. no, not it wasnt! Apparently I missed something somewhere. I just thought it was an interesting point.

... Sorry, I guess. I didn't know. Missed that particular arguement.



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Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 09:42:16 AM
"Is PodCastle really more 'feminine'?" is an interesting question, I think, especially if it really isn't actually provably more feminine (beyond having a female host.)  The question here has nothing to do with being "sexist," nor is it in any way a criticism of the stories.  (Unless somehow "feminine" is an insult now, in and of itself.) 

I personally find these sorts of sociological issues intriguing, which is why I'd be interested in relative male/female POV ratios among the podcasts.  Is there actually a difference?  If so, why?  If not, why is there a perceived difference? 

I understand that previously there may have been arguments about silly stuff and unfair criticisms, but having the response to that be "we must not speak of such things" seems a bit goofy to me.  Eytanz jumped right into "I'm not offended and I don't think the stories are bad!"  No one said anyone else was or should be offended and no one claimed the quality of the stories was affected one way or the other.  Swamp said that analyzing the question wasn't interesting because "you either like the stories or you don't."  Again, no one said they didn't like the stories or wouldn't like feminine stories.  (Okay, lowky said it now, but s/he didn't explicitly blame it on the heroes having girly-bits.)

The question is, is PodCastle perceived as "feminine," and if so, why?  Is it just the cultural baggage attached to the fantasy genre, or does it have a higher percentage of female protagonists?  If it does, is that a reflection of editorial taste (whether purposeful or incidental) or a reflection of the pool of stories submitted?  There's some potentially very interesting (albeit academic and metagenre) data to mine and analyze here, and I for one am interested in the discussion for its own sake.



Swamp

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Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 10:09:17 AM


I am in complete agreement with every bit of eytanz's statement here.

And, yes, this has been discussed before.  I know many are new to the forums, and you can look back to those discussions.  I don't think Talia's starting this post was meant to open old wounds, but let's be careful not to attract the wolves.

er. no, not it wasnt! Apparently I missed something somewhere. I just thought it was an interesting point.

... Sorry, I guess. I didn't know. Missed that particular arguement.

\
That's what I figured  :)

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lowky

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Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 01:34:04 PM
  Again, no one said they didn't like the stories or wouldn't like feminine stories.  (Okay, lowky said it now, but s/he didn't explicitly blame it on the heroes having girly-bits.)

For the record I never said I didn't like feminine stories, for instance I loved Nina Kimberly the Merciless.  There is something about Podcastle itself that just doesn't excite me like the other two (and to be honest I am less interested in EscapePod lately as well).  The stories may be wonderful, several generate alot of comments, I just seem more interested in other stories lately for some reason.  I think in part because I didn't have reliable internet for about 6 months then no internet for about 3 months.  Now I have ok internet, but just haven't gotten back into the stories as much.  I tend to prefer Adventure stories, be they Fantasy or other genres of SF.  I don't care if the hero has girly-bits or not.  I just prefer much more so adventure stories ala Howard, Burroughs, and Leiber.  If you want to write me a story in similar vein with a female author and female characters and female narrator I will probably love it.  I will say I have never been excited about the intros and outros for Podcastle like I have been for EP and PP.  That too could be part of why I listen to it less than I do PP.  I don't know.  I love Mur, if she could have about 40 hours in a day, (I know she's too busy with only 24) I would love to hear her doing more narrating, intros, etc.  For any of the 3 EA podcasts.  If I knew what one thing it was about PC I don't care for I would put voice to it, I am sure at least some of it is, I am behind, on many podcasts and keep discovering new ones. It seems there is a new Zombie podcast novel popping up every week.  recently discovered Fried Green Zombies for anyone interested.  It has a burka wearing female alien named Bob and Zombies in it.  What more could you ask for?


hautdesert

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Reply #11 on: October 10, 2009, 02:09:25 PM
Authors:
57% female
43% male

Narrators:
45% female
55% male

Those are the stats Rachel sent me recently.  Make of them what you will.  I do find it interesting that the author/narrator breakdown is very similar, but switched--that is, mid fifties female authors, mid fifties male narrators, mid forties male authors, mid forties female narrators.  I don't think it's a case of "all the women are writing men and all the men are writing women!" at all, it's just, kind of interesting.

Personally, I'm not convinced that women write different sorts of stories from men.  I think different authors write different sorts of stories, definitely, but I'm not convinced things are easily broken down by gender.  I've seen too many cases like this one.  I think knowing (or thinking you know) the gender of a writer can strongly affect how you perceive the story.

As for running classic sword and sorcery-type stuff, it's hard to get old work--Fritz Lieber, say, or the author I'd been suggesting to Rachel from the get-go, Jack Vance.  Problem is, when an author is dead getting permission to run their work can be supremely complicated, or when they're the age Vance is, contacting them and explaining about podcasting is its own challenge, and then there's the whole "creative commons" thing, which some authors are allergic to.  No problem, that's how things are, but it's frustrating when there's an author or a specific story you'd love to run, but you can't.

But if you do have an author or a story that you'd really like Podcastle to run, by all means suggest it.  We might not be able to get permission, but we can always at least investigate it.

Lowky, no one here will be drawn and quartered for liking anything.   :)  But I think it's safe to say that for the foreseeable future, nothing Gor will be running on Podcastle, that much is true.



Swamp

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Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 03:33:29 PM
I understand that previously there may have been arguments about silly stuff and unfair criticisms, but having the response to that be "we must not speak of such things" seems a bit goofy to me.  Eytanz jumped right into "I'm not offended and I don't think the stories are bad!"  No one said anyone else was or should be offended and no one claimed the quality of the stories was affected one way or the other.  Swamp said that analyzing the question wasn't interesting because "you either like the stories or you don't."  Again, no one said they didn't like the stories or wouldn't like feminine stories.  (Okay, lowky said it now, but s/he didn't explicitly blame it on the heroes having girly-bits.)

Sorry if I was a bit jumpy.  I just really didn't want another "let's trounce Podcastle" conversation erupting from even an innocent question.  I am actually pleased that everyone wants to discuss the subject from a sociological perspective.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 03:40:36 PM by Swamp »

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lowky

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Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 04:05:46 PM

As for running classic sword and sorcery-type stuff, it's hard to get old work--Fritz Lieber, say, or the author I'd been suggesting to Rachel from the get-go, Jack Vance.  Problem is, when an author is dead getting permission to run their work can be supremely complicated, or when they're the age Vance is, contacting them and explaining about podcasting is its own challenge, and then there's the whole "creative commons" thing, which some authors are allergic to.  No problem, that's how things are, but it's frustrating when there's an author or a specific story you'd love to run, but you can't.

But if you do have an author or a story that you'd really like Podcastle to run, by all means suggest it.  We might not be able to get permission, but we can always at least investigate it.

Lowky, no one here will be drawn and quartered for liking anything.   :)  But I think it's safe to say that for the foreseeable future, nothing Gor will be running on Podcastle, that much is true.

Quote from: wikipedia
The series was continued by Robin Wayne Bailey in Swords Against the Shadowland (novel 1998).

Well don't know if Robin Wayne Bailey has anything else he's written in Nehwon setting, but if he wrote one novel in it (which I haven't read) maybe he has written other things and/or he has written other "Classic" Sword and Sorcery.  Damn if he hasn't.  He's also written in the Thieves World universe.  sent him an email re:Escape Artists, bcc'd editorATpodcastleDOTorg.  For those interested he has a website at http://www.robinwaynebailey.net/


eytanz

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Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 04:31:13 PM
I understand that previously there may have been arguments about silly stuff and unfair criticisms, but having the response to that be "we must not speak of such things" seems a bit goofy to me.  Eytanz jumped right into "I'm not offended and I don't think the stories are bad!" 

I should point out that that wasn't really what I was trying to convey - what I was trying to say was "Podcastle isn't feminine in any way that matters to me". There are ways to look at it in which it probably is feminine, but I don't care about those.



stePH

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Reply #15 on: October 10, 2009, 10:28:13 PM
If PodCastle were a woman, I'd do her.  ;D

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Talia

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Reply #16 on: October 10, 2009, 11:06:12 PM
If PodCastle were a woman, I'd do her.  ;D

Me too!



Scattercat

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Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 04:13:09 AM
If PodCastle were a woman, I'd do her.  ;D

Roll the dice to see if you're getting drunk.

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Hautdesert - is that narrators meaning "the people who read the story" or "the character from whose perspective the story is told"? 



thomasowenm

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Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 01:45:26 PM
I have never minded the gender of characters in stories I read or listen too.  The main thing is that I end up caring for them.  Now I will say that gender has never bothered on PC, but what has bothered by about PC is that it is too pc.    Whether that is actually the case or not is not an issue, it's my perception of it. *****End of knocking PC for me on this thread.***** 

A good host is a good host, and a good story is a good story, and a good narrator is a good narrator.  That's all I care about on my PC. ;D




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Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 01:57:34 PM
As has been posted elsewhere, part of the issue is one of relative perception (the other EP podcasts have many more male authors, male protags so 50/50 seems like "a lot more"), and also of perceptual bias (seek an ye shall find).

Frankly, my response to this is more "how feminine" should it be? (This is especially true because I'm not sure that I understand what is meant by "feminine" in this context.)

We can crunch numbers; we can compare the family of EP; we can attempt to survey genres. In the end, I think that the "feminine quotient" is where it should be for this podcast. If I start to enumerate all of the factors that might determine whether a piece appears on PodCastle or not, I am fully confident that whether the author or protagonist are female (if that is what is meant by "feminine") is not a factor that results in otherwise "poor" stories appearing.

Besides, consider that episodes are limited to the pool of work that is available for publication, and I have no idea as to the ratio of female/male authors at any stage of the publication process or whether that ratio "means" anything or "shifts".

I also have no idea if running "more" female authors or protagonists makes the podcast "feminine" or whether it is a particular type of narrative or plot that is "feminine."

So, in the end, is seems like a "Podcastle is very feminine" is a non-sequitur that can neither be proven nor disproven.




hautdesert

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Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
Hautdesert - is that narrators meaning "the people who read the story" or "the character from whose perspective the story is told"? 

Yes.

Rachel tries to match them when she can.



Swamp

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Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 04:06:01 PM
As has been posted elsewhere, part of the issue is one of relative perception (the other EP podcasts have many more male authors, male protags so 50/50 seems like "a lot more")

I did the math on Escape Pod for the authors and the result was 67% male, 33% female.  Going through the protagonists will take a bit longer.

Hautdesert - is that narrators meaning "the people who read the story" or "the character from whose perspective the story is told"? 

Yes.

Rachel tries to match them when she can.

"Kissing Frogs" kind of counts for both. ;)

That's all I care about on my PC. ;D

I think we missed an idea for for the tagline contest:  PodCastle - I'm a PC.

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deflective

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Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 07:05:57 PM
this thread keeps showing up in recent posts and like a sore tooth that i keep poking at, i keep reading it.

it's frustrating on a couple levels.  perhaps most poignantly, the reason why i'm posting, is the implication that no one should be seen as criticizing.  there are obviously issues that drive listeners away from pod castle but we don't want you talking about them, the people here don't want to hear it.  any wolves that might have a opposing viewpoint should keep their distance, we'll discuss why they might have their opinion without talking to them.  thank you.

on a secondary level, it's frustrating to see past debates disregarded.  i put multiple posts into explaining why gender numbers are probably beside the point but it has no real effect.  when i dropped the podcastle feed a little under a year ago we'd gone months (that i remember) with two reocurring themes: patriarchs iconoclast & capable matriarchs.  powerful wizard actually has alzheimer, hobbit senator brought low, grandfather gets his comeuppance, goblin matron outwits warmongers.  not every story had the theme and most of the stories that did were fine but it was the same thing showing up a couple times every month.  when we got to intelligent design i had a personal bet whether it would be about an iconoclast god or a matronly earth goddess, it was both.  when the preview for the next story suggested a creation myth with a woman busying herself over an oven i decided that i wasn't getting the variety that i wanted.

pseudopod's recent success is mostly due to Alasdair's hosting but no small part is due to response to listener feedback.  we now hear Ben talking about the wide variety of stories available and the broad spectrum horror to pull from.  pod castle seems unwilling to run more traditional pulp fantasy (the combat i remember was in stories about a woman wearing shrinking chainmail so she thought she was gaining weight, and an actress that gained a vampire slayer's powers.  both stories spent more time on the inner dialogues about their weight than the combat that occurred).  in the intros to the couple episodes i've downloaded over the past year it sounds like some sort rebranding is taking place (modern fantasy i think was the line) which helps to shape expectations but isn't really the direction i was hoping for.

anyway, here's a much blunter perspective on why some people think podcastle is feminine.  it's a year out of date and things have undoubtedly changed but it probably still has some relevance.



Swamp

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Reply #23 on: October 11, 2009, 07:41:01 PM
this thread keeps showing up in recent posts and like a sore tooth that i keep poking at, i keep reading it.

it's frustrating on a couple levels.  perhaps most poignantly, the reason why i'm posting, is the implication that no one should be seen as criticizing.  there are obviously issues that drive listeners away from pod castle but we don't want you talking about them, the people here don't want to hear it.  any wolves that might have a opposing viewpoint should keep their distance, we'll discuss why they might have their opinion without talking to them.  thank you.

I'll own up to this one.  I was reactionary; I'm sorry.  My "wolves" comment was uncalled for.  I was feeling grumpy at the time, similar to how I was when there were all of the religion vs. science debates.  This was my bad.

However, if you notice, the people that actually have something to do with PodCastle, namely Heradel and Hautdesert , have been more than willing to discuss the subject.

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hautdesert

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Reply #24 on: October 11, 2009, 08:30:50 PM
when i dropped the podcastle feed a little under a year ago we'd gone months (that i remember) with two reocurring themes: patriarchs iconoclast & capable matriarchs.  powerful wizard actually has alzheimer, hobbit senator brought low, grandfather gets his comeuppance, goblin matron outwits warmongers. 

The powerful wizard with alzheimers really wasn't a patriarch brought low issue at all.  The theme of that story was "alzheimers" and it was, by the author's own words, inspired by someone he loved being diagnosed with the disease.  This is where, I think, perceptions about what Podcastle's staff's percieved "agenda" end up outweighing the actual themes of the stories.

I might give you Senator Bilbo--but I'm pretty sure Andy Duncan is talking about racism, and it's not as a male patriarch that the Senator is brought low, but as a racist.  But since indeed a "patriarch" is brought low in that story, I'll give you that one.

The thing is, from where I'm sitting, I don't see a strong "woman power" theme running through the cast.  And I'm remembering the beginning, that first few months, when some folks claimed the stories were obviously chosen with a feminist agenda, and all about woman power and hating men and such, when, in fact, nearly all of the stories we'd run so far were chosen by Steve.  It's hard for me not to wonder if the same assumptions would have played a part if the new editor had been someone male, or really, anyone but Rachel.


Quote
when we got to intelligent design i had a personal bet whether it would be about an iconoclast god or a matronly earth goddess, it was both.  when the preview for the next story suggested a creation myth with a woman busying herself over an oven i decided that i wasn't getting the variety that i wanted.

Any story about God is going to be either a confessional (and possibly platitudinous) document, or else iconoclastic, and Podcastle is very unlikely to run that sort of confessional story, so that's an easy bet in any event.

By the creator over an oven, do you mean the Vylar Kaftan about the gingerbread cookies?  That was about as different from the one about beetles as you could get. 

Quote
anyway, here's a much blunter perspective on why some people think podcastle is feminine.  it's a year out of date and things have undoubtedly changed but it probably still has some relevance.

Here's my blunt perspective--the same mix of stories, chosen by Steve, would excite no speculation as to the gendered nature of Podcastle.  My basis--the fact, as stated above, that stories chosen by Steve did excite such speculation when the audience thought Rachel had chosen them.

As to "traditional" fantasy vs "modern" I think personally that there's a sort of type of fantasy that's in vogue right now, and of course it's easier for us to find work by current authors.  And as I said in an earlier post, it's hard to get work from older authors, or dead ones.  And Podcastle can only run stories that are either submitted, or that the editor finds (say, in years best anthos, or just reading magazines) and asks for--and that's assuming that those solicited authors are willing or able to grant permission.  This is a not inconsiderable impediment to bringing you old-fashioned spells & swords type stuff.

I know all the EA editors have said before, and I'll say here again, if you know of an author who you'd love to see on EP, or PP, or PC, contact them if you know how, and email the editor of the appropriate cast to suggest the story--it helps if you give not just a title and author, but where the story might be found, so the editor can read it.



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Reply #25 on: October 11, 2009, 11:49:11 PM



Here's my blunt perspective--the same mix of stories, chosen by Steve, would excite no speculation as to the gendered nature of Podcastle.  My basis--the fact, as stated above, that stories chosen by Steve did excite such speculation when the audience thought Rachel had chosen them.

I think it's less that we even know who chose which stories and more the intro outros that color perceptions.  Just like deflective mentioned Alisdair's hosting of PP.  I am not saying remove Rachel or any such thing, but I think her intro/outros color perspectives, just like the other hosts color the perspectives of their podcasts.  I just don't care for it, just like with Norm there were many who didn't care for or did care for his hosting of EP.  I have mostly chosen to give up on PC.  Like Deflective said, it's just not providing what I want, I am sure it is providing exactly what others want.

Quote
As to "traditional" fantasy vs "modern" I think personally that there's a sort of type of fantasy that's in vogue right now, and of course it's easier for us to find work by current authors.  And as I said in an earlier post, it's hard to get work from older authors, or dead ones.  And Podcastle can only run stories that are either submitted, or that the editor finds (say, in years best anthos, or just reading magazines) and asks for--and that's assuming that those solicited authors are willing or able to grant permission.  This is a not inconsiderable impediment to bringing you old-fashioned spells & swords type stuff.

This is understandable.  From my perspective and desires in fantasy it's disappointing, but it's understandable. 


Quote
I know all the EA editors have said before, and I'll say here again, if you know of an author who you'd love to see on EP, or PP, or PC, contact them if you know how, and email the editor of the appropriate cast to suggest the story--it helps if you give not just a title and author, but where the story might be found, so the editor can read it.

Only speaking for myself, but with many Authors, I don't know what they have available that can be released.  If there is an author that I have read that I would like to see, I usually send them an email and bcc the appropriate editor, but to include a title along with where to find the story, I think that's a little harder for me, because of not knowing licensing/contract for stories.  I don't read as many magazine/anthologies.  Especially with Fantasy, because most of it is not the type of Fantasy stories I enjoy.  I usually try to see if the Author is aware of the podcast, link him to the submission guidelines, and as I said bcc the appropriate editor.  The editor then knows who/how an author has been contacted.  Not being involved in media publishing, there are too many aspects of licensing and contract law I just don't know.


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Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 04:25:58 PM

pod castle seems unwilling to run more traditional pulp fantasy (the combat i remember was in stories about a woman wearing shrinking chainmail so she thought she was gaining weight, and an actress that gained a vampire slayer's powers.  both stories spent more time on the inner dialogues about their weight than the combat that occurred).  in the intros to the couple episodes i've downloaded over the past year it sounds like some sort rebranding is taking place (modern fantasy i think was the line) which helps to shape expectations but isn't really the direction i was hoping for.

Deflective, are you still listening to PC? (This isn't intended to be sarcastic, it's a completely honest question.) Have you listened to "The Olverung" yet? It's very much got a fantasy/adventure vibe running in it, but could almost have been on Pseudopod, too. "Heretic for Degress" is less swashbuckling, but still has an epic fantasy feel. "Captain Fantasy" if you like your pulp with a dose of superheroes. Those are just a few of the recent ones PC has run that might be more your thing.

Less pulpy and epic, but still made of awesome from the last year (or so) are "The Osteomancer's Son" and "Cup and Table." I mean, those are just the ones off the top of my head that I think of when I think of exciting stories on PC. I'm sure there are plenty more.

Of course, no matter what we do, you're never going to like every story PC runs. Which is expected, right? :) I mean, that's how I am for every podcast like this I listen to. But I hope there's enough stuff that does hit the sweet spot for you enough that you keep coming back.


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Reply #27 on: October 12, 2009, 05:28:57 PM
pseudopod's recent success is mostly due to Alasdair's hosting but no small part is due to response to listener feedback.  we now hear Ben talking about the wide variety of stories available and the broad spectrum horror to pull from.  pod castle seems unwilling to run more traditional pulp fantasy (the combat i remember was in stories about a woman wearing shrinking chainmail so she thought she was gaining weight, and an actress that gained a vampire slayer's powers.  both stories spent more time on the inner dialogues about their weight than the combat that occurred).  in the intros to the couple episodes i've downloaded over the past year it sounds like some sort rebranding is taking place (modern fantasy i think was the line) which helps to shape expectations but isn't really the direction i was hoping for.


I would also argue its difficult to do good "pulp" fantasy in short format. Epic battles are all well and good, but dont have much of a place in short fiction. And there's only so many times i care to read about a knight slaying a dragon (yawn).

I would suggest checking out Goblin Lullaby though (although its from just over a year ago). Its got some swords and elves and such. :p




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Reply #28 on: October 12, 2009, 05:46:03 PM
Have you listened to "The Olverung" yet? It's very much got a fantasy/adventure vibe running in it, but could almost have been on Pseudopod, too. "Heretic for Degress" is less swashbuckling, but still has an epic fantasy feel. "Captain Fantasy" if you like your pulp with a dose of superheroes. Those are just a few of the recent ones PC has run that might be more your thing.

Less pulpy and epic, but still made of awesome from the last year (or so) are "The Osteomancer's Son" and "Cup and Table." I mean, those are just the ones off the top of my head that I think of when I think of exciting stories on PC. I'm sure there are plenty more.

Castor on Troubled Waters is another great one for that!  The butter mines of Cowpoo. :D  It still makes me laugh.  And I still think the Castor stories should be a recurring feature.

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Reply #29 on: October 13, 2009, 12:46:51 AM
pseudopod's recent success is mostly due to Alasdair's hosting but no small part is due to response to listener feedback.  we now hear Ben talking about the wide variety of stories available and the broad spectrum horror to pull from.  pod castle seems unwilling to run more traditional pulp fantasy (the combat i remember was in stories about a woman wearing shrinking chainmail so she thought she was gaining weight, and an actress that gained a vampire slayer's powers.  both stories spent more time on the inner dialogues about their weight than the combat that occurred).  in the intros to the couple episodes i've downloaded over the past year it sounds like some sort rebranding is taking place (modern fantasy i think was the line) which helps to shape expectations but isn't really the direction i was hoping for.


I would also argue its difficult to do good "pulp" fantasy in short format. Epic battles are all well and good, but dont have much of a place in short fiction. And there's only so many times i care to read about a knight slaying a dragon (yawn).

If this is true than what about all the pulps? Conan, Elric, Fafhard and the Grey Mouser?  The Thieves World anthologies?   I cant recall many dragon slayings in these. Wikipedia led me to http://www.blackgate.com/ and to http://www.flashingswords.com/


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Reply #30 on: October 13, 2009, 11:16:47 AM
I have to say I'm with Lowky on this one.  My tastes run more toward adventure or swords and sorcery, or whatever you'd like to call it, in fantasy.
DKT, you are right, The Olverung and Heretic by Degrees are two of my favorite PC's of all time, but PC doesn't run many stories like those.  PC is running a lot of folktales and re-imagined fairy tales, plus a smattering of surrealist pieces, neither of which I care for.  Consequently, I don't get more than a 7 or 8 minutes into most PC episodes.  I don't bother to post feedback on a story that I don't like because of style preferences, but I do wish PC would run more stories in different styles.
Now, is PC more feminine that the other EA podcasts?  Absolutely.  Is it too feminine?  I doubt it.  Thing is, it's not terribly feminine over all, just more moreso that what we're used to. 



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Reply #31 on: October 13, 2009, 12:04:41 PM
pseudopod's recent success is mostly due to Alasdair's hosting but no small part is due to response to listener feedback.  we now hear Ben talking about the wide variety of stories available and the broad spectrum horror to pull from.  pod castle seems unwilling to run more traditional pulp fantasy (the combat i remember was in stories about a woman wearing shrinking chainmail so she thought she was gaining weight, and an actress that gained a vampire slayer's powers.  both stories spent more time on the inner dialogues about their weight than the combat that occurred).  in the intros to the couple episodes i've downloaded over the past year it sounds like some sort rebranding is taking place (modern fantasy i think was the line) which helps to shape expectations but isn't really the direction i was hoping for.


I would also argue its difficult to do good "pulp" fantasy in short format. Epic battles are all well and good, but dont have much of a place in short fiction. And there's only so many times i care to read about a knight slaying a dragon (yawn).

If this is true than what about all the pulps? Conan, Elric, Fafhard and the Grey Mouser?  The Thieves World anthologies?   I cant recall many dragon slayings in these. Wikipedia led me to http://www.blackgate.com/ and to http://www.flashingswords.com/


Eh? I thought those were all longer stories, if not novels, not short stories.
and I can't tell for certain on the webpages, but the illustration on that flashing swords one makes me promptly disinterested in ever reading anything they put out. ;P




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Reply #32 on: October 13, 2009, 01:02:20 PM
pseudopod's recent success is mostly due to Alasdair's hosting but no small part is due to response to listener feedback.  we now hear Ben talking about the wide variety of stories available and the broad spectrum horror to pull from.  pod castle seems unwilling to run more traditional pulp fantasy (the combat i remember was in stories about a woman wearing shrinking chainmail so she thought she was gaining weight, and an actress that gained a vampire slayer's powers.  both stories spent more time on the inner dialogues about their weight than the combat that occurred).  in the intros to the couple episodes i've downloaded over the past year it sounds like some sort rebranding is taking place (modern fantasy i think was the line) which helps to shape expectations but isn't really the direction i was hoping for.


I would also argue its difficult to do good "pulp" fantasy in short format. Epic battles are all well and good, but dont have much of a place in short fiction. And there's only so many times i care to read about a knight slaying a dragon (yawn).

If this is true than what about all the pulps? Conan, Elric, Fafhard and the Grey Mouser?  The Thieves World anthologies?   I cant recall many dragon slayings in these. Wikipedia led me to http://www.blackgate.com/ and to http://www.flashingswords.com/


Eh? I thought those were all longer stories, if not novels, not short stories.


They are all collections of interconnected short stories and novellas that were collected into omnibus "novels". This is definitely true for the Elric stories and the Fafhard and Grey Mouser stories - I haven't read Conan, and I think that one has been muddled by the fact that multiple authors continued the series, in differing formats.

I should point out that both Elric and Fafhard/Grey Mouser are considerably better written and deeper than their covers indicate, and both series firmly deserve their status as classics. As I said, I haven't read any Conan, so I can't comment on that.

The problem, I think, is not at all that the (sub-)genre isn't suited to the format - but rather that very few people write this sort of stories anymore, and even fewer do it as well as Moorcock or Leiber. And frankly, while an occasional classic story is fun, I prefer that the EA podcasts focus on contemporary writing - which means that yet, they are somewhat limited by what is out there.



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Reply #33 on: October 13, 2009, 03:22:01 PM
For the record, to me this is a complete no-brainer.  Here's a breakdown of Pseudopod protagonists (nearly always matching the author's gender AFAIK) out of the last 32 stories that have gone live -- just eyeballing it for you real quick here:

Male: 25
Female: 4
Indeterminate: 3

One of the "indeterminate" stories was "The Undoing", to which I assigned a female narrator (and hence by the power of suggestion, a female protag) just because I COULD.  In case you're wondering whether I have a bias, the answer is yes, I do -- I love it when women write horror stories.  They just don't send me nearly as many submissions, and the solicitation habit hasn't kicked in with me to nearly the extent it has with the other editors -- although even that might not help very much unless I really aim to make it do so.  If any of that changes in the future and the gender numbers start approaching 50/50 like PodCastle's, you'll probably get the impression Pseudopod has become "more feminine" by contrast with what you're used to seeing and hearing.  No great mysteries here.



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Reply #34 on: October 13, 2009, 03:42:06 PM


I would also argue its difficult to do good "pulp" fantasy in short format. Epic battles are all well and good, but dont have much of a place in short fiction. And there's only so many times i care to read about a knight slaying a dragon (yawn).

If this is true than what about all the pulps? Conan, Elric, Fafhard and the Grey Mouser?  The Thieves World anthologies?   I cant recall many dragon slayings in these. Wikipedia led me to http://www.blackgate.com/ and to http://www.flashingswords.com/

[/quote]

Eh? I thought those were all longer stories, if not novels, not short stories.
and I can't tell for certain on the webpages, but the illustration on that flashing swords one makes me promptly disinterested in ever reading anything they put out. ;P


[/quote]

While some are novels, a lot of them are a collection of short stories, esp the Leiber stuff.  Same for Thieves world, they were anthologies.  Remember that Leiber and Howard were both writing for the pulps before their stuff was collected as novels...


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Reply #35 on: October 13, 2009, 04:43:10 PM
Here's my blunt perspective--the same mix of stories, chosen by Steve, would excite no speculation as to the gendered nature of Podcastle.  My basis--the fact, as stated above, that stories chosen by Steve did excite such speculation when the audience thought Rachel had chosen them.

As to "traditional" fantasy vs "modern" I think personally that there's a sort of type of fantasy that's in vogue right now, and of course it's easier for us to find work by current authors.

i haven't been shy pointing out the editorial trends in the other podcasts, Steve seemed uncomfortable when i mentioned that he was including a lot of sex last summer, but there is definitely some hypocrisy when i focus on gender oriented trends in the podcast that is mathematically most balanced.

it's disappointing that the submission pool doesn't cover the full spectrum of fantasy.  for what it's worth, pod castle continues to carry my favourite types of fantasy and i listen to episodes that stand out on the forums.

there is also little doubt that everything that's mentioned as a problem by one listener will be a selling point to other listeners.  i consider all the escape artist podcasts to be at the forefront of their genres and like to see a fully representative selection of stories from them, but if that isn't possible then it'll be interesting to see what niche is found.



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Reply #36 on: October 14, 2009, 01:38:02 PM
For the record, to me this is a complete no-brainer.  Here's a breakdown of Pseudopod protagonists (nearly always matching the author's gender AFAIK) out of the last 32 stories that have gone live -- just eyeballing it for you real quick here:

Male: 25
Female: 4
Indeterminate: 3

One of the "indeterminate" stories was "The Undoing", to which I assigned a female narrator (and hence by the power of suggestion, a female protag) just because I COULD.  In case you're wondering whether I have a bias, the answer is yes, I do -- I love it when women write horror stories.  They just don't send me nearly as many submissions, and the solicitation habit hasn't kicked in with me to nearly the extent it has with the other editors -- although even that might not help very much unless I really aim to make it do so.  If any of that changes in the future and the gender numbers start approaching 50/50 like PodCastle's, you'll probably get the impression Pseudopod has become "more feminine" by contrast with what you're used to seeing and hearing.  No great mysteries here.

If Pseudopod were a woman ... I'd stay the hell away from that crazy bitch.  :P

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Reply #37 on: October 14, 2009, 01:50:59 PM
but the crazy ones are always best in bed, even if they do try to kill you later for some imagined slight.


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Reply #38 on: October 14, 2009, 05:39:11 PM
I would also argue its difficult to do good "pulp" fantasy in short format. Epic battles are all well and good, but dont have much of a place in short fiction. And there's only so many times i care to read about a knight slaying a dragon (yawn).
If this is true than what about all the pulps? Conan, Elric, Fafhard and the Grey Mouser?  The Thieves World anthologies?   I cant recall many dragon slayings in these. Wikipedia led me to http://www.blackgate.com/ and to http://www.flashingswords.com/
I landed a story at Flashing Swords, when they were still doing swashbuckling historicals, but the editor moved on before I received the contract and the magazine went into metamorphosis for a while and my story was dropped. They do a whole lot of punny-swashbuckling-adventure stuff.

Quote
Eh? I thought those were all longer stories, if not novels, not short stories.
and I can't tell for certain on the webpages, but the illustration on that flashing swords one makes me promptly disinterested in ever reading anything they put out. ;P

Howard's Conan, Kull, Bran Mak Morn, and Solomon Kane stories were all under 5000 words. His Joe Costigan boxing stories are all shorts too (and are very good). There is a nice anthology of Howard's original Conan stories that presents them in publication order called "The Coming of Conan". Some of the Kull, and other miscellaneous shorts were edited after his death to become Conan stories too. There aren't as good as his originals though and suffer from poor pacing and confusing locations (as the Conan stories take place in a fictional prehistoric Europe while the Kull stories and Pict stories don't). You can also spot original Howard stories by the poetic descriptions, even in his more modern stories like the Costigan boxing stories, he has a way that makes even the mundane very beautiful and exotic. L Sprague De Camp, while due credit for re-igniting the Sword and Sorcery genre with Howard's work also muddied Howard's history by editing, adding to, and reorganizing the stories and timelines within the stories.

As a side note, why complain about the cover art of Flashing Swords? It's clearly art in the style of Frank Frazetta, the name most associated with pulp fantasy, the man who's Conan anthology covers brought Howard's writing back into the paperback mainstream in the 1960s and who influenced myriad of fantasy and science fiction painters and illustrators. I'm just curious what in that cover drives you away and why?

Quote
While some are novels, a lot of them are a collection of short stories, esp the Leiber stuff.  Same for Thieves world, they were anthologies.  Remember that Leiber and Howard were both writing for the pulps before their stuff was collected as novels...

Howard died a short story writer. Post Oaks and Sand Roughs, his only novel, was not published until after his death.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 05:44:31 PM by jrderego »

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Reply #39 on: October 14, 2009, 07:01:49 PM
Howard's Conan, Kull, Bran Mak Morn, and Solomon Kane stories were all under 5000 words. His Joe Costigan boxing stories are all shorts too (and are very good). There is a nice anthology of Howard's original Conan stories that presents them in publication order called "The Coming of Conan". Some of the Kull, and other miscellaneous shorts were edited after his death to become Conan stories too. There aren't as good as his originals though and suffer from poor pacing and confusing locations (as the Conan stories take place in a fictional prehistoric Europe while the Kull stories and Pict stories don't). You can also spot original Howard stories by the poetic descriptions, even in his more modern stories like the Costigan boxing stories, he has a way that makes even the mundane very beautiful and exotic. L Sprague De Camp, while due credit for re-igniting the Sword and Sorcery genre with Howard's work also muddied Howard's history by editing, adding to, and reorganizing the stories and timelines within the stories.

As a side note, why complain about the cover art of Flashing Swords? It's clearly art in the style of Frank Frazetta, the name most associated with pulp fantasy, the man who's Conan anthology covers brought Howard's writing back into the paperback mainstream in the 1960s and who influenced myriad of fantasy and science fiction painters and illustrators. I'm just curious what in that cover drives you away and why?

Hmm, ok. I guess I'm just not familiar with that part of the genre at all (obviously). I have less than zero interest in reading any Conan story, but obviously thats some weird prejudice on my part since I've never so much as looked at one. I think Arnie ruined the very concept for me. :P

As for the cover art, the art itself is fine, I just get turned off by scantily clad women on covers. Although she's not even that scantily clad looking at it again. Hmm, I donno. I can see little to justify my previous reaction.



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Reply #40 on: October 14, 2009, 07:30:30 PM
Howard's Conan, Kull, Bran Mak Morn, and Solomon Kane stories were all under 5000 words. His Joe Costigan boxing stories are all shorts too (and are very good). There is a nice anthology of Howard's original Conan stories that presents them in publication order called "The Coming of Conan". Some of the Kull, and other miscellaneous shorts were edited after his death to become Conan stories too. There aren't as good as his originals though and suffer from poor pacing and confusing locations (as the Conan stories take place in a fictional prehistoric Europe while the Kull stories and Pict stories don't). You can also spot original Howard stories by the poetic descriptions, even in his more modern stories like the Costigan boxing stories, he has a way that makes even the mundane very beautiful and exotic. L Sprague De Camp, while due credit for re-igniting the Sword and Sorcery genre with Howard's work also muddied Howard's history by editing, adding to, and reorganizing the stories and timelines within the stories.

As a side note, why complain about the cover art of Flashing Swords? It's clearly art in the style of Frank Frazetta, the name most associated with pulp fantasy, the man who's Conan anthology covers brought Howard's writing back into the paperback mainstream in the 1960s and who influenced myriad of fantasy and science fiction painters and illustrators. I'm just curious what in that cover drives you away and why?

Hmm, ok. I guess I'm just not familiar with that part of the genre at all (obviously). I have less than zero interest in reading any Conan story, but obviously thats some weird prejudice on my part since I've never so much as looked at one. I think Arnie ruined the very concept for me. :P

As for the cover art, the art itself is fine, I just get turned off by scantily clad women on covers. Although she's not even that scantily clad looking at it again. Hmm, I donno. I can see little to justify my previous reaction.

I will say that the film "Conan the Barbarian" was not bad for the middle period Conan stories. John Milius had great respect for Howard's stories (plot devices of several appear in the film) and captured some of Howard's rich vision of the Hyborian Age. Middle Period meaning the stories where he was a thief.

There are, like, three ages of Conan stories, the ones where he's King of Aquillonia and dealing with the mundane nature of rule like "The Phoenix on the Sword" (the first Conan story and my favorite of them) and "The Scarlet Citadel". Meanwhile there are the "Conan as Mercenary stories" before he is king like "The Frost Giant's Daughter", and "Queen of the Black Coast" . The third age are the stories where he's a thief, before becoming a mercenary general like "The Tower of the Elephant".

Howard wrote them in no specific order, as if the timeline was sort of irrelevant, or some phrase or idea in one story such as his reflection on his life before taking the crown of Aquillonia, seeded the plot of another story like "Xuthal of the Dark" or "The Queen of the Black Coast".

A lot of the tropes of modern fantasy are directly traceable to Howard's Conan stories including very strong woman characters. While you may have no real interest in reading them, I would be remiss in not recommending "The Phoenix on the Sword". Howard's writing so amazingly transcends whatever preconceptions you have based on the films. He predates Tolkein, C.S. Lewis, and so many others who have achieved near godlike reputations (for, in my opinion, much inferior storytelling and writing skill) that to see the impetus of their work in his is a revelation.

As for the scantily clad covers, those are a fantasy trope too, also attributable to Robert Howard (posthumously). It was the L Sprague De Camp anthologies of Conan stories, with cover and occasional illustrations by Frank Frazetta that started the boom in modern fantasy and created the fantasy audience. Other publishers bought other, otherwise out of print, pulp sword and sorcery stories, hired Frank Frazetta to make covers, for them, and flooded the marketplace. Once those stories were gone, and living writers saw that they could make moneyg/get published writing similarly themed stuff, the boom was on. Frazetta was a comic artist before moving to paint and other media. 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 07:35:35 PM by jrderego »

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Reply #41 on: October 14, 2009, 08:48:20 PM
I will say that the film "Conan the Barbarian" was not bad for the middle period Conan stories. John Milius had great respect for Howard's stories (plot devices of several appear in the film) and captured some of Howard's rich vision of the Hyborian Age. Middle Period meaning the stories where he was a thief.
Dude, if you weren't already, you'd be my hero.  I probably like that movie a lot more than you do, but it's never gotten the credit it deserved.
That said, you're spot on.  You can go back to Dunsany, if you like, as the roots for Howard's work, but there is no comparison in style.  You can draw a stright line from Howard to Leiber, then from Leiber to everybody else writing in the S&S style. 
One of the failings of a lot of older S&S is the lack of strong female characters.  The good news is that most of the writers working in that sub-genre in the last 20 years know it and have acted accordingly.  I'm pretty sure chain mail bikinis have gotten a bit scarce.



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Reply #42 on: October 14, 2009, 09:00:50 PM
I will say that the film "Conan the Barbarian" was not bad for the middle period Conan stories. John Milius had great respect for Howard's stories (plot devices of several appear in the film) and captured some of Howard's rich vision of the Hyborian Age. Middle Period meaning the stories where he was a thief.
Dude, if you weren't already, you'd be my hero.  I probably like that movie a lot more than you do, but it's never gotten the credit it deserved.
That said, you're spot on.  You can go back to Dunsany, if you like, as the roots for Howard's work, but there is no comparison in style.  You can draw a stright line from Howard to Leiber, then from Leiber to everybody else writing in the S&S style. 
One of the failings of a lot of older S&S is the lack of strong female characters.  The good news is that most of the writers working in that sub-genre in the last 20 years know it and have acted accordingly.  I'm pretty sure chain mail bikinis have gotten a bit scarce.

I dunno if we can compare the amount of like for a movie :) ... I can say, however, that it was one of the more important cinematic experiences that shaped the kind of reader and writer I'd grow up to become. I think it's sort of looked down on because it has one foot in the old Hercules/Machiste films of the 60's/70s, being that it starred Arnold who is very Herclulean in look, and was shot in Spain where most of the Machiste films were shot by an Italian producer, D'laurentis etc...

It really did set the bar for sword fight movies, and unfortunately the films that followed it were either terrible sequels (Conan the Destroyer), or horrific knock offs Albert Pyun's "Sword and Sorcery" that killed the genre.

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Reply #43 on: October 14, 2009, 09:08:53 PM
Don't forget "Fire and Ice."  Holy crap that was bad.  "Beastmaster," oddly, seemed to be better than it actually was.  Also, Krull did not completely suck, but, yeah, that whole genre seemed to just die in the mid 80's before it even got rolling.  Maybe Tarantino will do an S&S flick.



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Reply #44 on: October 14, 2009, 09:35:53 PM
Hey, I think all this talk of Sword and Sorcery and wanting more of it on PodCastle is great.  Hopefully it will inspire the authors and/or wannabe writers (like me) on the forums to write some good S&S stories and submit them to PodCastle.  There's no garuntee they will be selected, but it is worth a shot.

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Reply #45 on: October 14, 2009, 09:39:42 PM
It's certainly inspired me to, cautiously, check some out.  Aside form the early Dragonlance books the closest I've ever come to it is the movie version of Conan the Destroyer which is three hours of my life I will never get back.  Which is, in turn, quite an achievement given it's only 90 minutes long:)



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Reply #46 on: October 14, 2009, 09:47:00 PM
Don't forget "Fire and Ice."  Holy crap that was bad.  "Beastmaster," oddly, seemed to be better than it actually was.  Also, Krull did not completely suck, but, yeah, that whole genre seemed to just die in the mid 80's before it even got rolling.  Maybe Tarantino will do an S&S flick.


Fire and Ice was an interesting project, the art director and cowriter/codirector of that film was Frank Frazetta. It was directed by Ralph Bakshi, one of Frazetta's old neighborhood pals as a way to bring his work to the motion picture rather than just the poster. In that respect it sort of succeeded, and thought I never was a fan of Rotoscoping, the "actor" who did almost all of the running and fighting in that film was also, Frank Frazetta, who was in hid mid-50s at the time.

Beastmaster was notable for the introduction of Marc Singer to filmdom. It wasn't bad, but it was wicked long and borrowed a hell of a lot more from Star Wars than it did from Conan. The reason the film genre sort of died, I think, is because they were relatively cheap to make and therefore were made relatively cheaply. Even "modern" S&S films like Kull suffered from cheap TV like sets and, while I do like Kevin Sorbo, inappropriate casting. Plus, the genre tends to be too intentionally self deprecating.

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Reply #47 on: October 14, 2009, 09:47:42 PM
Hey, I think all this talk of Sword and Sorcery and wanting more of it on PodCastle is great.  Hopefully it will inspire the authors and/or wannabe writers (like me) on the forums to write some good S&S stories and submit them to PodCastle.  There's no garuntee they will be selected, but it is worth a shot.

Perhaps I'll send one of my Kintaro Koboyashi stories along and see if they bite.

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Reply #48 on: October 14, 2009, 10:02:16 PM
It's certainly inspired me to, cautiously, check some out.  Aside form the early Dragonlance books the closest I've ever come to it is the movie version of Conan the Destroyer which is three hours of my life I will never get back.  Which is, in turn, quite an achievement given it's only 90 minutes long:)

Ditto. I have a Solomon Kane collection at home I haven't yet touched. But I'm also quite curious about Fritz Leiber's stuff. (I remember there being a version of them with Mike Mignola covers that I have resisted. That B&N gift card I received just may have found some use...)

Hey, there's always that Dungeons and Dragons movie... ::)

That said, I'm curious as to how much current S&S stuff there is out there. I remember reading something by R. Garcia y Robertson years ago in a F&SF issue that felt very S&S to me, and was fun. *Goes off to research*


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Reply #49 on: October 14, 2009, 10:21:25 PM
It's certainly inspired me to, cautiously, check some out.  Aside form the early Dragonlance books the closest I've ever come to it is the movie version of Conan the Destroyer which is three hours of my life I will never get back.  Which is, in turn, quite an achievement given it's only 90 minutes long:)

Ditto. I have a Solomon Kane collection at home I haven't yet touched. But I'm also quite curious about Fritz Leiber's stuff. (I remember there being a version of them with Mike Mignola covers that I have resisted. That B&N gift card I received just may have found some use...)

Hey, there's always that Dungeons and Dragons movie... ::)

That said, I'm curious as to how much current S&S stuff there is out there. I remember reading something by R. Garcia y Robertson years ago in a F&SF issue that felt very S&S to me, and was fun. *Goes off to research*

Solomon Kane is less sword and sorcery though as he's a 16th century Pilgrim avenger who wields two pistols and a magic staff (that he gets in a later story) and dispenses God's justice to the demonic (who bear lots of similarities to some of the monsters in H.P. Lovecraft stuff as they were contemporaries and friends and pen pals). The Solomon Kane tales are good fun too, a little more grim though, than the S&S ones. But I like them quite a bit.

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Reply #50 on: October 14, 2009, 11:30:49 PM
we're well past time for a full scale cgi high magic blockbuster.  it's kinda like the year or two before the matrix came out, the tech to do a cgi version of the wirework swordmaster movie had existed and just needed one example to set the mould.  we saw a good sample of a magic battle in the Dumbledore/Voldemort battle a couple years ago, add some Doc Strange effects w/ runes and shielding and we're well on the way to creating a new movie sub-genre.

a few new traditional fantasy stories that i strongly recommend are the name of the wind, a game of thrones, and the curse of chalion.  warning tho: all begin series that haven't been fully written yet, in case that worries you (damn wheel of time).



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Reply #51 on: October 15, 2009, 12:16:58 AM
See, the best thing about the first (and only, really) Conan movie was that it made *no* concession to the family market.  Conan is not Hagrid with a sword.  A lot of people dissed Arnie's acting in that film, but I think he (non)acted it perfectly.  Conan was not supposed to be Kevin Sorbo.  He was just supposed to slay, drink, and glower a lot.  Not a real deep character, but a lot of fun to watch.
They were very cheap to make, and they were cranked out like spaghetti westerns in the 80's.  Xena and Hercules pretty much damned the genre to TV obscurity.
Fire and Ice *did* succeed in some ways.  The art was actually pretty good, as was the animation.  The story, sadly, was exactly the   sort of thing people are talking about when they say they hate S&S fantasy.
Other good places to look for S&S fantasy fiction: Any of Moorecock's Elric stuff.  Sort of a skinny albino sorceror mopey goth Conan.



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Reply #52 on: October 15, 2009, 12:33:49 AM
Other good places to look for S&S fantasy fiction: Any of Moorecock's Elric stuff.  Sort of a skinny albino sorceror mopey goth Conan.

Elric is the anti-Conan.  Physically weak, uses sorcery, he's basically everything Conan isn't.  The only thing they've got in common is that they swing swords.

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Reply #53 on: October 15, 2009, 12:37:59 AM
Other good places to look for S&S fantasy fiction: Any of Moorecock's Elric stuff.  Sort of a skinny albino sorceror mopey goth Conan.

Elric is the anti-Conan.  Physically weak, uses sorcery, he's basically everything Conan isn't.  The only thing they've got in common is that they swing swords.
Yeah, that occured to me when I was typing "skinny albino sorceror mopey goth."
The stories themselves, though, are very much in the same vein.



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Reply #54 on: October 15, 2009, 12:47:14 AM
Hey, there's always that Dungeons and Dragons movie... ::)

They have not made a Dungeons and Dragons movie yet, and I refuse to listen to any such crazy talk that they have.

Quote from: Deflective
we're well past time for a full scale cgi high magic blockbuster.  it's kinda like the year or two before the matrix came out, the tech to do a cgi version of the wirework swordmaster movie had existed and just needed one example to set the mould.  we saw a good sample of a magic battle in the Dumbledore/Voldemort battle a couple years ago, add some Doc Strange effects w/ runes and shielding and we're well on the way to creating a new movie sub-genre.

The problem is they focus on things like the dragons and monsters, and not the story with these kinds of movies.  The special effects are easy, the problem is the lack of writing.

As for Kevin Sorbo I much preferred him in Andromeda to Hercules.  Xena was pretty much just for titillation. Why they had to introduce the whole, "She's a strong woman so she must be a lesbian".  It had potential.  I guess there are too many men threatened by strong women. 

The whole patriarchal society suppression of women thing is as annoying as the equally extreme men are evil response to it.  I was looking at some Wiccan/Pagan information this morning and that is one of the things that always bothers me when trying to find more information on expressing and studying my religious beliefs.  Women used to have power, Evil MenTM took it from us, therefore men are not welcome in our religion/No one ever worshiped a god, just goddesses.  Things like this are why terms like Feminazi exist. Not everything is or should be Masculine, Not everything is or should be Feminine.


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Reply #55 on: October 15, 2009, 12:50:15 AM
Other good places to look for S&S fantasy fiction: Any of Moorecock's Elric stuff.  Sort of a skinny albino sorceror mopey goth Conan.

Elric is the anti-Conan.  Physically weak, uses sorcery, he's basically everything Conan isn't.  The only thing they've got in common is that they swing swords.
Yeah, that occured to me when I was typing "skinny albino sorceror mopey goth."
The stories themselves, though, are very much in the same vein.

Hence the subgenre name Sword & Sorcery.

Can we blame Elric for Emo kids?  Of course Elric had a little more reason to be depressed, his sword had a nasty habit of killing his friends/companions.  Ah the trials and tribulations of using a Chaotic Evil, Intelligent sword.


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Reply #56 on: October 15, 2009, 01:40:16 AM
Other good places to look for S&S fantasy fiction: Any of Moorecock's Elric stuff.  Sort of a skinny albino sorceror mopey goth Conan.

Elric is the anti-Conan.  Physically weak, uses sorcery, he's basically everything Conan isn't.  The only thing they've got in common is that they swing swords.
Yeah, that occured to me when I was typing "skinny albino sorceror mopey goth."
The stories themselves, though, are very much in the same vein.

Hence the subgenre name Sword & Sorcery.

Can we blame Elric for Emo kids?  Of course Elric had a little more reason to be depressed, his sword had a nasty habit of killing his friends/companions.  Ah the trials and tribulations of using a Chaotic Evil, Intelligent sword.

Elves ruin fantasy for me, as do dwarfs, gnomes, etc... I can't stand Tolkein, or anything that borrows the mechanics of his stories, or the mythology contained within. I see "elf" and roll my eyes back so far I can't see the pages anymore. For me Fantasy pretty much starts and ends with Howard.

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Reply #57 on: October 15, 2009, 02:46:22 AM
I have to confess that I love elves. They're my mostest favorite type of mythical (? not sure if that's the word I'm looking for or not) critter.

Although I confess I wasn't a huge fan of the string of elf stories PC ran some months ago.

I guess you weren't a fan of the LOTR movies then (but they were so great! :P one of the few examples of truly excellent fantasy in cinema movie history! And how can you not love McKellen's Gandalf :P).



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Reply #58 on: October 15, 2009, 02:56:28 AM
I have to confess that I love elves. They're my mostest favorite type of mythical (? not sure if that's the word I'm looking for or not) critter.

Although I confess I wasn't a huge fan of the string of elf stories PC ran some months ago.

I guess you weren't a fan of the LOTR movies then (but they were so great! :P one of the few examples of truly excellent fantasy in cinema movie history! And how can you not love McKellen's Gandalf :P).

I think I like elves less than I do Fairies.  I like the stories that show elves are not all these nature loving tree-hugger neo-hippy wannabees.

I like that Fairies are frequently viewed as evil or at the least chaotic.  Enough of this we've lived so long that we don't want to get involved in anything anymore because it's all so temporary neutrality bullshit.  Maybe its why I like stories about Loki, Coyote, and other trickster gods too.  Mischief and chaos are fun, and can be powerful tools for change.  We humans take ourselves too seriously and need to be made fun of/to have fun from time to time.  While I like Tolkein and the LOTR movies are definitely the best Fantasy to hit the screen in decades, Too many people focused on his environmentalism with their stories of Elves.  Tolkein is very derivative of Germanic/Norse legends.  The people who came later are derivative of Tolkein.  it's just like photocopying things, a copy of a copy of a copy is blurry and unreadable, same with alot of the people who copied Tolkein, their work is unreadable.


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Reply #59 on: October 15, 2009, 04:35:27 AM
Quote from: deflective
we're well past time for a full scale cgi high magic blockbuster.
The problem is they focus on things like the dragons and monsters, and not the story with these kinds of movies.  The special effects are easy, the problem is the lack of writing.

i could agree with that.  there's been a fare number of big screen magic duels over the past decade, from lotr to potter, and they all look virtually the same: shoot missiles at each other (fire or force) and use telekinesis to throw things about.  it's the easiest thing to animate, sure, but technology is at the point where we can do more interesting stuff.  we saw a hint of this in the Dumbledore/Voldemort battle.  a wall of flame was summoned so Dumbledore brought the water out of a fountain as protection, then used the water offensively to try to drown his opponent (as i remember it).


Elves ruin fantasy for me, as do dwarfs, gnomes, etc... I can't stand Tolkein, or anything that borrows the mechanics of his stories, or the mythology contained within. I see "elf" and roll my eyes back so far I can't see the pages anymore. For me Fantasy pretty much starts and ends with Howard.

fantasy races are ok if done properly.  the warrior bears in the golden compass (the book, the bears were disappointingly diluted in the movie) were interesting but elves tend to rub me the wrong way since they're usually supposed to be super-awesome.  live longer, wiser, more in touch with nature, deadly, smarter, etc.  Pratchett keeps them out of discworld for more or less exactly this reason, he even wrote one book where they tried to invade and impose their glamour of superiority (his elves have more in common with traditional fey, like Gaiman's do).



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Reply #60 on: October 15, 2009, 04:49:07 AM
Elves ruin fantasy for me, as do dwarfs, gnomes, etc... I can't stand Tolkein, or anything that borrows the mechanics of his stories, or the mythology contained within. I see "elf" and roll my eyes back so far I can't see the pages anymore. For me Fantasy pretty much starts and ends with Howard.

fantasy races are ok if done properly.  the warrior bears in the golden compass (the book, the bears were disappointingly diluted in the movie) were interesting but elves tend to rub me the wrong way since they're usually supposed to be super-awesome.  live longer, wiser, more in touch with nature, deadly, smarter, etc.  Pratchett keeps them out of discworld for more or less exactly this reason, he even wrote one book where they tried to invade and impose their glamour of superiority (his elves have more in common with traditional fey, like Gaiman's do).

Pratchett also doesn't really much care for anything seen as, well, super-awesome. His introduce-the-new-race-to-Ankh-Morpork books are reveals of hidden awesomeness (Golems, Goblins, Trolls to a certain extent) slash immigrant tales. He tends to pick somewhat distasteful things and then show the wonder in them rather than try to take the beautiful and make it more mundane and distasteful. 

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Reply #61 on: October 15, 2009, 05:00:04 AM
Quote from: deflective
we're well past time for a full scale cgi high magic blockbuster.
The problem is they focus on things like the dragons and monsters, and not the story with these kinds of movies.  The special effects are easy, the problem is the lack of writing.

i could agree with that.  there's been a fare number of big screen magic duels over the past decade, from lotr to potter, and they all look virtually the same: shoot missiles at each other (fire or force) and use telekinesis to throw things about.  it's the easiest thing to animate, sure, but technology is at the point where we can do more interesting stuff. 

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/8oWAb5NVALw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/8oWAb5NVALw&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1&amp;</a>

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Reply #62 on: October 15, 2009, 12:44:43 PM
I guess you weren't a fan of the LOTR movies then (but they were so great! :P one of the few examples of truly excellent fantasy in cinema movie history! And how can you not love McKellen's Gandalf :P).

The movies were okay, though I admit to liking the Rankin/Bass cartoons from the 1970s based on The Hobbit and Return of the King better than the Peter Jackson films. The books were insufferably boring, The Silmarillion was incoherent pap, and The Hobbit was 100 pages too long. The only Tolkein-centric anything I've read and enjoyed was his biography.

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Reply #63 on: October 15, 2009, 01:01:06 PM
I think Tolkien told a great story, but in the style of his day: clunky, thick, and wordy.  For the most part, his contemporaries wrote in the same style.  I, too, dread "elves" coming out in story.  Fantastic races, as originated by Tolkien, where just personifications of certain human traits that he wanted to isolate and highlight.  A lot of SF writers do the same thing with aliens.  Handled well, you get Donaldson's Amnion.  Handled badly, you get Drizzt Do'Urden.  Blech.



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Reply #64 on: October 15, 2009, 02:15:51 PM
I like Drizzt. :p



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Reply #65 on: October 15, 2009, 02:29:39 PM
I think Tolkien told a great story, but in the style of his day: clunky, thick, and wordy.  For the most part, his contemporaries wrote in the same style.  I, too, dread "elves" coming out in story.  Fantastic races, as originated by Tolkien, where just personifications of certain human traits that he wanted to isolate and highlight.  A lot of SF writers do the same thing with aliens.  Handled well, you get Donaldson's Amnion.  Handled badly, you get Drizzt Do'Urden.  Blech.

I don't have a problem with clunky thick and wordy, hell my favorite authors are Joseph Conrad and Herman Melville. It's that I couldn't find a way to identify with, or care about, Middle Earth or anyone in it. I had no emotional attachment to any of it, and even though in places his prose was lovely, it added up to very little in the way of advancing a VERY simple and, considering the ground that's been trod since first published, very obvious plot. Plus, the continuous linguistic stuff got extremely tedious. I know that creating the elfin language was Tolkein's favorite thing in the world, but like esperanto, or Klingon, or any other useless language, the time spent learning it is wasted.  

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Reply #66 on: October 15, 2009, 07:40:45 PM
I think it's a bit unfair to criticize Tolkien's plot as "obvious" because of all the plots written since the Lord of the Rings. 



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Reply #67 on: October 15, 2009, 08:02:11 PM
I think it's a bit unfair to criticize Tolkien's plot as "obvious" because of all the plots written since the Lord of the Rings. 

The fact that I read a whole mess of stuff that aped it first, from kid's lit when I was a kid, to grownup lit when I was a grownup, before reading Tolkein doesn't make the plot of his books any less obvious. I am sure if I'd been alive in the 40s when it was first published and read it then when it was still original, then sure, it wasn't obvious then.

But it sure as hell is now. And, it's not a criticism of his writing, but of how the world has recycled his plots countless times.

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Reply #68 on: October 17, 2009, 01:04:13 AM
woah, what's with all this Tolkien hating?!
I loved those books, the movies were entertaining, and the Simarillion was crap.
I forget ALL of it. :D couldn't tell you much about the series, but I remember being entertained!
LEAVE TOLKIEN ALONE! *sob*

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Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #69 on: October 17, 2009, 02:20:35 AM
I think it's a bit unfair to criticize Tolkien's plot as "obvious" because of all the plots written since the Lord of the Rings. 

The fact that I read a whole mess of stuff that aped it first, from kid's lit when I was a kid, to grownup lit when I was a grownup, before reading Tolkein doesn't make the plot of his books any less obvious. I am sure if I'd been alive in the 40s when it was first published and read it then when it was still original, then sure, it wasn't obvious then.

But it sure as hell is now. And, it's not a criticism of his writing, but of how the world has recycled his plots countless times.

To be fair, LOTR is a monomyth/Hero's Quest/Journey, and you don't get that huge amount of differentiation in them apart from setting and details.

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Reply #70 on: October 17, 2009, 03:04:39 AM
woah, what's with all this Tolkien hating?!
I loved those books, the movies were entertaining, and the Simarillion was crap.
I forget ALL of it. :D couldn't tell you much about the series, but I remember being entertained!
LEAVE TOLKIEN ALONE! *sob*

Only Tolkein I can say I truly hate is Silmarillion.  Never finished it.  Utter shite!
I enjoyed the others, but he mostly collected much of the stories of Germanic myth, Dwaves and the like, fleshed them out a little and used them to tell a story about ending war and fighting environmental distruction.


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Reply #71 on: October 17, 2009, 05:08:54 AM
woah, what's with all this Tolkien hating?!
I loved those books, the movies were entertaining, and the Simarillion was crap.
I forget ALL of it. :D couldn't tell you much about the series, but I remember being entertained!
LEAVE TOLKIEN ALONE! *sob*

d00d, you need to put on way-too-much eye makeup and upload a histrionic video rant to YouTube.  ;D

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