Author Topic: Pseudopod 165: The Copse  (Read 35012 times)

Sgarre1

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Reply #50 on: November 10, 2009, 01:04:13 AM
I think partly the problem may be that atmospheric, evocative, abstract stories in the Ramsey Campbell / Robert Aickman vibe (which I personally like very much - and which I think you did a good job touching on) tend to have a structure that privileges mood over standard plot.  In a lot of Campbell's short fiction, the plot is relegated to series of events, and it's place in the story structure is usually take by an examination of a single character's internal psychological state reacting to those events.  Campbell is especially good at this - his stories tend not to be about what happens but how and why the reader feels it is happening to the main character.

As I said, this is one of my favorite story types, but I could imagine that:

A. It tends not to adapt too well to audio, as the reader's control over the text tends to be taken greater advantage of when a plot through-line is not driving the narrative (readers can dawdle and consider, something listeners can't do).  This is especially true of someone like Aickman, where a turn of phrase, subtly conveyed, may turn out being the crux of our apprehension of events.

B. It tends to be a story form not as widely popular as the plot driven model, especially nowadays.

I could tell early on in "The Copse" that is was looking to be more evocative than plot-driven, and so I didn't expect there to be a reason or solid explanation given.  And I like that, I don't really want any solid, logical, understandable agent in such a story - the inscrutability is part of the creepiness.  But I would agree with what has been said, there perhaps needed to be a little more tying together of the events into the vague shape of a whole (but not an answer).  Making one of the 3 characters the main focus might have helped, or building a narrative detail that threads between the family members.

“It is strange that people train themselves so carefully to go to waste so prematurely.”
Robert Aickman, “The Unsettled Dust” (1968)

« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 01:06:49 AM by Sgarre1 »



Robert Mammone

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Reply #51 on: November 10, 2009, 10:44:16 AM
No offense to the author, but I was completely bored to death with the story.  The whole story could have been better had it been trimmed down to the last 10 minutes.

Specifically, what was it that you were bored with?

Nothing seemed to happen for a long stretch of the story.  The reader is treated long lyrical descriptions of the twisting road, the trees, what people are wearing, and how they're hunched over a map, etc., but it has very little to do with what's actually happening in the story.  Once I realized that all that was happening for the last 10 minutes was the characters getting dressed and driving some place dark for a dinner party, it was very very hard to continue to pay attention.  Some of the similes and metaphors also seem to stretch poetical license at bit too far for my taste.  At one point, we are told that the apples on the ground reminded somone of a baby's head.  Those must have been pretty big apples!  In what way did they resemble a baby's head, because other than a general roundness, there's very little about an apple that's actually like a baby's head.  Was it soft and smooth, like how a baby's skin is?  As opposed to hard and crunch like an real apple?  Did it have little wispy hairs?  Was it gnarled and bumpy resembling the features of a baby?  We don't know. It just felt like that simile was thrown in there for atmosphere, when if you really thought about it, it didn't really make a lot of sense (at least to me).  At another point we are told that a car's headlights resemble two drops of mercury, when in reality a car's headlights driving down a road looks nothing like mercury (they called it quicksilver for a reason).

In the end, I felt like there wasn't much of a pay-off in terms of an explanation.  How was the evil guy related to the treees?  What was the girl-shape that the husband saw sprinting outside?  What happened to the little girl Julia?  What exactly are the trees anyway?  Demons?  Space aliens?  Just carnivorous plants?  What's up with the deranged evil wife and evil girl?
I take your point about apples and baby’s heads.  Now that you point it out, the comparison is particularly inapt.  However, the bit about the mercury you have plain wrong.  From the text, it is:

Outside, moonlight silvered the pastures, slipping along the fence wire like mercury.

Perhaps you got a bit confused while listening.

Actually, if anyone is interested in a copy of the story to read, instead of listening to it, I’m happy to send out as many copies as are requested.  Just send me a PM and I’ll forward it to you.

Also, thinking on it and reading what others have said, the story is a bit of a grab bag of different elements.  The section where they enter the house and walk down the corridor, and Roger’s wife glimpses something fluttering in a cage in a room, is simply there to be unsettling.  Similarly, the use of sock puppets to mimic/control reality was designed to be macabre.  Whether it works or not is a matter for the listener, but I personally thought they were unsettling and really, who is a writer writing for other than himself (much as I love my audience!).

The Copse was originally a much shorter piece.  After some telling feedback, I expanded it. While doing that, I was reading a collection of Ramsay Campbell short fiction (with one story, about the two couples who go out into a ring of stones, where the number of menhirs keep changing) was a particular influence, so the Campbell vibe is a real one.  I was also reading a Richard Morgan book (Woken Furies, from memory) and if you’ve read Morgan before, he really ramps up the atmosphere and evocation to 11. 

I tend to take a while to finish a story, let alone edit it satisfactorily, so if the story wanders, that matches the lengthy time I was able to devote to it.  Also, it wasn’t written from beginning to end.  I had the start basically as is, then I had an image in my head of how the ending should be.  The main effort was then to coherently link start and finish.  All along, after the initial comments, my intent was to be as evocative as I could – the storyline after all isn’t particularly novel, so to give it a bit of ‘oomph’, I worked on creating a rising sense of dread and atmosphere.

I really do appreciate all the comments, good, bad and indifferent.  Thanks.



Alasdair5000

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Reply #52 on: November 10, 2009, 12:47:27 PM
Incidentally Robert, just in case this hasn't been communicated fully, I, and I'm not alone in this, have total admiration for your willingness to engage with feedback here.  I know from personal experience it can be tough hearing feedback, positive and negative, and the way you're approaching this is the epitome of classy.  Nicely done:)



Robert Mammone

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Reply #53 on: November 11, 2009, 06:37:54 AM
Incidentally Robert, just in case this hasn't been communicated fully, I, and I'm not alone in this, have total admiration for your willingness to engage with feedback here.  I know from personal experience it can be tough hearing feedback, positive and negative, and the way you're approaching this is the epitome of classy.  Nicely done:)

Hello Alasdair.  It's a real pleasure to engage with people in a reasonable discussion about the story, and their expectations when listening to Pseudopod.  Thank you for the opportunity.



cdugger

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Reply #54 on: November 12, 2009, 12:55:07 PM
This was my first Pseudopod story, so, in a way, it set the tone for me for the rest of them.

I enjoyed the story. And that is the only reason I read/listen. For fun.

It was very predictable, but that is of little concern for me. In a short story, that is expected. In a novel, not so much. You must understand, though, that I have been reading for fun my whole life. I am not yet old, but am far from young, so I have read a lot of stories.

I especially liked how the young girl was used to provide the trees their victim/sustenance. While children are a blessing, they are often 'protected' by authors, thus leaving out a great horror component. A corrupted child is the best way to scare the bejeebers out of some people.

Of course, I have no children, so they all scare me. But, that's for a different forum...

To Robert, keep it up. It was fun, that's what I like, give me more.

I read, therefore I am...happy.


Loz

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Reply #55 on: November 12, 2009, 10:46:18 PM
Well, at least I can't take solace in the fact that when I arrived at the end of the story confused as to who was the controlling source of the evil in the story, what exactly they were doing and why, and what they achieved at the end of it, that was what the author intended.  ;)

The unfortunate implication I took from this was that Standish uses his trees to kill the men because it's only men that have the strength to stand up to him, women, due to being women, are weaker and therefore he can dominate them just fine, through a mixture of physical, mental and, presumably not long after the story closes, sexual abuse.



nevermore_66

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Reply #56 on: November 15, 2009, 02:55:34 PM
Mate, gutsy move to drop by and comment on the comments -- major props to you!

Really?  I would've thought more writers would be keen to come and share their thoughts with their audience.  Pseudopod is a fantastic place to have your work heard by a huge audience.  I've been fortunate to have had a few pieces published on the internet this year, but the feedback and audience compared to Pseudopod is miniscule.


Interesting.  Back when my story was cast, I noticed that authors didn't seem to reply on the forums and assumed that it was some point of etiquette.  Now I'm sad I didn't participate more.  One of my favorite things about the Escape Artists podcasts is the sense of an active community.

Sounds like your interacting well with the feedback, Robert.

I did indeed enjoy the atmosphere.  And I have soft spot for evil trees.  I didn't have a problem with apples being baby heads...but I've got a diseased imagination and things like apples often turn into things like baby heads...

In regards to the last comment, above, I didn't get the impression, from the story, that women are weaker.  In fact, the wife was the only one who was at all suspicious and the only one who would stand up to and resist (most of the time) Standish.  The husband seemed content to ignore everything, compliment the spread, and paint a target on himself.  The only time he did act out, he was only taking the villain's bait.  Standish could have much more easily controlled the husband...but I suspect he would have taken less pleasure in standing over him and saying, "Now you're mine!"

Standish has a thing for the ladies...he's just old fashioned like that  ;)

« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 02:57:27 PM by nevermore_66 »

"There is no exquisite beauty…without some strangeness in the proportion."
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Dave

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Reply #57 on: November 16, 2009, 12:41:14 AM
This could have been great. The build up of mood and atmosphere and creepiness was excellent, but then it was like the author's friends came over and wanted to play, and they just jotted "and then the trees ate the guy. The end." and turned it in.

I mean, really? That's it? We came all this way for that?

Huh.

-Dave (aka Nev the Deranged)


Robert Mammone

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Reply #58 on: November 16, 2009, 01:32:51 AM
This could have been great. The build up of mood and atmosphere and creepiness was excellent, but then it was like the author's friends came over and wanted to play, and they just jotted "and then the trees ate the guy. The end." and turned it in.

I mean, really? That's it? We came all this way for that?

Huh.
I'm an old fashioned sort of guy when it comes to these sort of things.  Why put the phenomenon down to psychobabble when you can have a really creepy, really eerie group of trees feeding on the blood of drunken innocents who've been made a sacrifice by a mad old farmer who very likely worships them?  Perhaps a better writer would've made more of the set up? 

The resolution to the story was essentially the first thing that came into my head while I was thinking about what next to write - it certainly wasn't a frantic attempt to escape a corner I'd painted myself into.  Similarly with another story I've almost finished - the ending came to me first, and I've constructed a story before it which I think matches the ending. 

Still, it's not nice to leave a reader feeling like they've been gipped - unfortunately, I can't do anything to fix you up for the time spent!  Unless it is money you want, in which case, here, have a drink of this tankard of cider...



Bdoomed

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Reply #59 on: November 16, 2009, 02:54:03 AM
I need to get me some man-eating trees for the next time someone pisses me off.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Unblinking

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Reply #60 on: November 16, 2009, 09:13:01 PM

Interesting.  Back when my story was cast, I noticed that authors didn't seem to reply on the forums and assumed that it was some point of etiquette.  Now I'm sad I didn't participate more.  One of my favorite things about the Escape Artists podcasts is the sense of an active community.


What story did you write, nevermore?  You could always perform a little threadomancy and bring your story back to the top of the forum--I'm curious what you'd have to say.  :D



DKT

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Reply #61 on: November 16, 2009, 09:38:16 PM

Interesting.  Back when my story was cast, I noticed that authors didn't seem to reply on the forums and assumed that it was some point of etiquette.  Now I'm sad I didn't participate more.  One of my favorite things about the Escape Artists podcasts is the sense of an active community.


Bummer, but it's never too late to jump in on the threadomancy! I'd love to hear your thoughts on your story. I really enjoyed it.


cdugger

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Reply #62 on: November 17, 2009, 12:18:45 AM
Unless it is money you want, in which case, here, have a drink of this tankard of cider...

Ya know, I think I'll just keep praising your work. And, never join you for drinks.

Hope you don't mind... ::)

I read, therefore I am...happy.


nevermore_66

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Reply #63 on: November 19, 2009, 10:23:25 PM
Bummer, but it's never too late to jump in on the threadomancy! I'd love to hear your thoughts on your story. I really enjoyed it.

Thanks.  And thus encouraged, I'll go see if I can find the thread.  I think it was 121: "Blood, Snow, and Sparrows".


"There is no exquisite beauty…without some strangeness in the proportion."
~Edgar Allan Poe, "Ligeia"


El Sabor Asiático

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Reply #64 on: December 08, 2009, 10:30:10 PM
I can see why some readers might not care for this story, and in fact it's the kind of story even I normally don't care for, but I liked this one quite a bit. To me, anyway, it's not really about what happens, because it's pretty clear from the beginning that our poor protagonists are doomed -- if this were a movie, I'd be yelling at the screen for that family to get out of the friggin' house! -- but more about anticipating the slow unreeling of their inevitable doom. As others have pointed out, it's about atmosphere, and the kind of horror that is based not in shock or gross-out but gradual, mounting dread. I thought the author pulled this off quite well, here.

I also thought this was the perfect kind of story for Pseudopod. I think it actually "reads" better out loud than it might on the page, I think because so much of it is about creating a certain mood, and with a good reader (like we have here) a story like this can be quite spooky indeed.



Robert Mammone

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Reply #65 on: December 11, 2009, 12:03:41 PM
I can see why some readers might not care for this story, and in fact it's the kind of story even I normally don't care for, but I liked this one quite a bit. To me, anyway, it's not really about what happens, because it's pretty clear from the beginning that our poor protagonists are doomed -- if this were a movie, I'd be yelling at the screen for that family to get out of the friggin' house! -- but more about anticipating the slow unreeling of their inevitable doom. As others have pointed out, it's about atmosphere, and the kind of horror that is based not in shock or gross-out but gradual, mounting dread. I thought the author pulled this off quite well, here.

I also thought this was the perfect kind of story for Pseudopod. I think it actually "reads" better out loud than it might on the page, I think because so much of it is about creating a certain mood, and with a good reader (like we have here) a story like this can be quite spooky indeed.


I think you've hit the nail on the head there with the last paragraph.  The quite wonderful reading lends the story a weight and heft that it might lack on the page.  Don't get me wrong, I think it reads well (and for anyone who would like a copy to read, PM me and I'll send you a copy of the story back) but the reading makes the experience much more intimate.



nathonicus

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Reply #66 on: December 18, 2009, 12:13:30 AM
I can't fault this story for not keeping us in suspense about the fates of our protagonists; too much emphasis is put on surprise or twist endings these days. To be honest, it's going to be very difficult to write any type of horror story which really takes a well-read modern audience by surprise, because of the sheer volume that has come before.  Rather than try to force some sort of BS twist-ending, this story starts off creepy, introduces characters and a situation, and then follows them to their conclusion, maintaining atmosphere and character along the way. The pleasure is in listening as the darkness grows deeper and doom blossoms.

There were many lovely touches - the cider, the prayer, wall shadows - I am especially fond of the brief splash of illumination provided by the car - some anonymous traveler, completely oblivious to the unfolding horror - throws across the scene in the copse.

I think this is probably my favorite story from Pseudopod. 

That could be because the fear of plants taking root in my body is my only remaining child phobia with any real force behind it.  Well done.



Robert Mammone

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Reply #67 on: December 24, 2009, 05:06:02 AM
That really is one of the nicest reviews I've ever had for anything I've written.  Thank you for your kind comments!



Dave

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Reply #68 on: January 21, 2010, 02:50:20 AM
This could have been great. The build up of mood and atmosphere and creepiness was excellent, but then it was like the author's friends came over and wanted to play, and they just jotted "and then the trees ate the guy. The end." and turned it in.

I mean, really? That's it? We came all this way for that?

Huh.
I'm an old fashioned sort of guy when it comes to these sort of things.  Why put the phenomenon down to psychobabble when you can have a really creepy, really eerie group of trees feeding on the blood of drunken innocents who've been made a sacrifice by a mad old farmer who very likely worships them?  Perhaps a better writer would've made more of the set up? 

The resolution to the story was essentially the first thing that came into my head while I was thinking about what next to write - it certainly wasn't a frantic attempt to escape a corner I'd painted myself into.  Similarly with another story I've almost finished - the ending came to me first, and I've constructed a story before it which I think matches the ending. 

Still, it's not nice to leave a reader feeling like they've been gipped - unfortunately, I can't do anything to fix you up for the time spent!  Unless it is money you want, in which case, here, have a drink of this tankard of cider...

Hey! A reply from the author is just as good as money, IMNSHO, so consider me repaid. Not that you really owed me anything. I guess I could make clearer that the story wasn't bad- it was really good. The only reason the ending let me down was because the build up was so masterfully crafted. It wasn't even so much the bloodthirsty trees, I guess, so much as that it just wrapped up so suddenly. I wanted MORE of the atmosphere and eloquence I'd been so enjoying sinking into like a comfy couch, knowing that sooner or later I was going to have to realize hey, this isn't leather, is it...

So, in that sense, it's a compliment. Of a sort.

A quick glance at my posting history here (and in comments back before they got shut off) will reveal that I am a huge stickler for endings. Movies, books, stories, whatever the media, endings are critical. If a great story doesn't pay off well, it's worse than a story that's merely mediocre throughout.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. I enjoyed your writing style enough that I'd certainly give another of your stories a shot. One not-quite-perfect-by-my-admittedly-high-standards ending is not enough to sour me on your ouvre. So, I hope you sell EA another one so I get another chance to be pleasantly surprised (and by surprised I mean terrified) by the next one.

D.

-Dave (aka Nev the Deranged)


Robert Mammone

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Reply #69 on: January 31, 2010, 05:38:56 AM
Thanks for the kind comments, Dave, they mean a great deal.  I know what you mean about endings - you get so caught up in the sense of the world being created that it becomes a pleasure to read/listen to, up until the point where it ends and all that sense of enjoyment abruptly finishes.  A better writer would've come up with something that fulfilled the build up far more satisfyingly.

One such writer would be Simon Stranzas, whose story, Fading Light, is the latest release.  Really, his story is top shelf stuff that leaves you thinking for a while after finishing it.



Millenium_King

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Reply #70 on: June 04, 2010, 11:36:58 PM
It had lots of atmosphere, but not a lot of oomph.  The frightening imagery seemed a little too scattershot to be effective; we had creepy little girls, odd shadow-puppets, eerie wardrobes, a run-down rental house in the countryside, a mysteriously addicting drink, an ambiguous prayer to a self-consciously malevolent god-being, an enslaved/subservient wife who warns of impending doom, mystery meat that causes inexplicable bouts of nausea, a lecherous landlord, and, from what I gather, living trees that drink blood.  Just a whole potpourri of "things that are unsettling."  I felt like there were three or four different supernatural events going on rather than seeing them coalesce into one unified whole. 

As far as the story structure, it may have been just distraction that made me miss it, but I was particularly bothered by the vagueness of their errand at the Standish's house.  They were there to butter him up somehow about something, apparently to keep their house that they didn't much want in the first place?  The whole situation felt a bit forced. 

I was gonna write a review of this one, but I think Scattercat hit the nail on the head here.  Amazing, I know, but I totally agree with Scattercat on this one.

Excellent narration on Ian's part, however.

I was also a little disappointed with Alasdair's outro in which he was unsettled when his kick-boxing instructor asked him if he'd ever done it before simply because he was "big."  Our host focusses on the prejudice of the instructor, but I think the anecdote simply shows someone uncomfortable in their own skin.  It is good to "analyze" things, as our host says, but one must also analyze oneself.  My gentle rebuttal to our intrepid host Alasdair is: we should all accept those things about ourselves we cannot change.  The instructor was not so much judging, as he was complimenting.  Take pride in your size (or your skinnyness, or nerdiness, or intellect, or loudness - whatever the case may be).  Nod and agree with the taunts of the bullies in life, then laugh at THEM.  THEY're envious.  THEY'RE the weak ones.

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Reply #71 on: June 05, 2010, 03:13:07 AM
One can recognize the relative quality and effectiveness of a piece of writing while still having deplorable taste in voice and tone.  ;-)



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Reply #72 on: June 06, 2010, 10:29:09 PM
I don't think I usually disagree with you so much about "voice and tone" as I do in plot, narration and pacing.  For example: I didn't disagree so much with the voice used in "The Engine of Desire" or "Set Down This" so much as I despised the plodding pace and utter lack of plot.  Some people call this sort of thing "negative space," but to each his own I suppose.

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Reply #73 on: June 09, 2010, 10:23:50 AM

Our host focusses on the prejudice of the instructor, but I think the anecdote simply shows someone uncomfortable in their own skin. 


   Yep.  That's true.

It is good to "analyze" things, as our host says, but one must also analyze oneself.  My gentle rebuttal to our intrepid host Alasdair is: we should all accept those things about ourselves we cannot change. 
   Also true.  Been working on that for 33 and a bit years.  I think it's fair to say it's a work in progress.

The instructor was not so much judging, as he was complimenting.  Take pride in your size (or your skinnyness, or nerdiness, or intellect, or loudness - whatever the case may be).  Nod and agree with the taunts of the bullies in life, then laugh at THEM.  THEY're envious.  THEY'RE the weak ones.

   See, this is where we part ideological company because, my whole life, people have told me variations on either that or the idea that if you stand up to a bully, they back down.  And, in my experience, that just doesn't happen.  Being big didn't do a damn thing when I was being bullied, it just made me a larger target.  Being a nerd didn't do a damn thing for most of my time at school, other than give me something that very other people had.  Being a teacher's kid got me more slack from the staff than I'd otherwise have got which was balanced by the two or three kids who hated my dad, and by extension, me.  It's not a situation you win, ever, it's one you outlast and incorporate into how you view the world, for good or ill.  In my case, that means I lead with my brain more than my size, because that's what I know how to do, that's what works for me, but for other people it'll be different.  Your milage, as they say, may vary.



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Reply #74 on: July 03, 2010, 06:47:43 PM
The reading was fantastic. I really can't decide whether I like Ian Stuart or the Word Whore more. I think I will split the baby and just pick them both, one for each gender.

As has been brought up before, the atmosphere is well crafted. I felt the tension from the inevitable doom. I was hoping vainly that one or two of the family could escape. There was some great foreshadowing, as with the line talking about what made the apples great was the fertilizer. Some of the more disparate oddities (like the dinner meat or the hide and seek game) could probably be tied up more concisely with a single line like that one.

This was my first Pseudopod story, so, in a way, it set the tone for me for the rest of them.

I enjoyed the story. And that is the only reason I read/listen. For fun.

It was very predictable, but that is of little concern for me. In a short story, that is expected. In a novel, not so much. You must understand, though, that I have been reading for fun my whole life. I am not yet old, but am far from young, so I have read a lot of stories.

I especially liked how the young girl was used to provide the trees their victim/sustenance. While children are a blessing, they are often 'protected' by authors, thus leaving out a great horror component. A corrupted child is the best way to scare the bejeebers out of some people.

Of course, I have no children, so they all scare me. But, that's for a different forum...

To Robert, keep it up. It was fun, that's what I like, give me more.

I think what cdugger says does a really good job of summing up why I come to Pseudopod. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

45, "The Goon Job" -- was a clever piece of writing, describing a world I'd like to hear more of.

Merlin's Bane did this, although slightly less satisfyingly.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2010, 07:56:44 PM by Fenrix »

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