Author Topic: Union Dues may be coming to television!  (Read 65064 times)

stePH

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Reply #50 on: January 13, 2010, 06:42:54 PM
And we don't know just how involved he'll be with the show.  Head writer?  Script editor?  Creative consultant?  "Executive Producer"* ?  This advice is not necessarily for Mr. DeRego himself, but for whoever will be writing and producing the stories (and the suits making decisions about same).


* this credit is essentially "we're throwing you a bone by putting your name here", am I right?

Not really. I will be receiving a "created by" credit and we have an agreement that keeps me involved in the storytelling and some other stuff if the show goes into production.

I meant specifically the credit of "Executive Producer".  My understanding is that it's just a "vanity" credit.

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Kaa

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Reply #51 on: January 13, 2010, 06:51:02 PM

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stePH

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Reply #52 on: January 13, 2010, 11:06:33 PM
StePH: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-executive-producer.htm

Okay, so it's a "You've put up your money for this joint, so we'll put your name on it" credit.  :P

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wakela

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Reply #53 on: January 14, 2010, 01:22:05 AM
The idea of Lou Ferrigno playing an aging hero is inspired.  I was thinking that it would be cool for all the aging supers to be played by actors who played supers, but most of the are still too famous (Tobey) or dead (Reeve).  Still, it would be fun for famous actors to play the aging supers.

Did anyone see that show "Sports Night?"  It was about the behind the scenes work that went into making a show called "Sports Night."  Each episode of the real ended with the fictional show starting.  "Welcome to Sports Night.  We have a great show lined up for you.  First an interview with  Raider's coach...[roll closing credits]".  Then again, not every UD story is about the putting together of a TV show...

Someone above mentioned Hiro from "Heroes."  In such a dark and complex world of The Union, I think you need to have a guy like this who loves saving people and who's spirit is not crushed.  Not a phony "Rah Rah!  Go Union" type of guy that everyone hates, nor a hero who is too blind to see what's really going on, though.  The vibe I get from the short stories is utterly hopeless.  I think people are fine with a dark show, but they need some shred of hope to cling to.  In 24 everything looks hopeless, but you know Jack is going to get the guy in the end.  In BSG you not sure they will ever find Earth -and most episodes they don't even mention it- but it's something.  In UD this could be occasional, cryptic messages from a resistance group (there are 12 cylon models), or rumors of a rogue pyramid in Africa or something.  Now that I think of it, this could be an interesting contrast.  The UD comics and (fictional)TV show are more like 24 with a villain and a clear outcome.  But the lives of the UD characters (on the actual TV show) are more like BSG.




Ocicat

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Reply #54 on: January 14, 2010, 02:26:05 AM
I think it's interesting that lots of people are talking about Union Dues as a Superhero series, and how to balance fighting villains and saving people with character arcs.

But this is Union Dues.  In my mind, there are no superheroes in this universe.  Think back to the stories... when did any of them involve fighting a supervillain?  How often do the Union members go on missions to save civilians?  They wear costumes, yes.  They have superpowers, yes.  But they're not heroes.  Some of them might want to be, but Union *won't let them*.  And the only villain is the Union itself. 

That, more than anything, is what should differentiate this series from Heroes. 



stePH

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Reply #55 on: January 14, 2010, 04:14:22 AM
I think it's interesting that lots of people are talking about Union Dues as a Superhero series, and how to balance fighting villains and saving people with character arcs.

But this is Union Dues.  In my mind, there are no superheroes in this universe.  Think back to the stories... when did any of them involve fighting a supervillain?  How often do the Union members go on missions to save civilians?  They wear costumes, yes.  They have superpowers, yes.  But they're not heroes.  Some of them might want to be, but Union *won't let them*.  And the only villain is the Union itself. 

That, more than anything, is what should differentiate this series from Heroes. 

Exactly.  We see the Union heroes performing disaster relief and the like, not crime-fighting.  Doesn't their charter forbid them from encroaching on the job of law enforcement?

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Talia

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Reply #56 on: January 14, 2010, 05:55:03 AM
The audience needs someone to root for. No one wants to watch something hopeless.



deflective

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Reply #57 on: January 14, 2010, 07:45:16 AM
In my mind, there are no superheroes in this universe.
Exactly.  We see the Union heroes performing disaster relief and the like, not crime-fighting.

so someone using super-strength to dig out earthquake survivors isn't considered a superhero unless they also spend time putting bruises on purse snatchers?

you draw a narrow line my friends.



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Reply #58 on: January 14, 2010, 08:35:43 AM
Well, yes... but even so, the UD stories aren't about digging out earthquake survivors.  In theory, the characters do that, but how often has Union members going to a disaster site actually been shown?  I think maybe once.  There are scenes of them saving people from "disasters" caused by their own powers several more times - which hardly makes them heroic. 

I really get the idea that not only does it got get shown much, but that Union members doing actual heroics doesn't happen very much.  The mundane Fire and Rescue people don't want them there.  The Union will get called in on really big Katerina style disasters, or the Union will send them in if there's going to be a good photo op.  And that's what they're there for: not the heroics, the photo op.



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Reply #59 on: January 14, 2010, 11:49:11 AM
I think that the fact that most of the public (?) seems to support the Union needs to be played up as well.  It's only the people who actually interact with the Union that get to see the Union's true face.

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Reply #60 on: January 14, 2010, 01:28:54 PM
I'd like to put a vote in for Neal Mcdonough, firstly because he's awesome and secondly because I think he'd fit as the lead character in Clean Up in Aisle Five.

Regarding other casting, it might be interesting to play against type, especially with the super strong characters.  I know it's established in the stories that they're physically very large but it would be interesting to see someone with a slight build but incredible muscle density or something similar.  Essentially The Thing minus the largeness and orange rock:)



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Reply #61 on: January 14, 2010, 01:49:36 PM
I'd like to put a vote in for Neal Mcdonough, firstly because he's awesome and secondly because I think he'd fit as the lead character in Clean Up in Aisle Five.

Oh my goodness, yes. He'd be swell.



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Reply #62 on: January 14, 2010, 06:17:33 PM
I'd like to suggest Jason Mollett in a one line role.   ;D

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Reply #63 on: January 14, 2010, 07:20:28 PM
Hello? Lynda Carter, anyone? :)

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Reply #64 on: January 14, 2010, 07:21:17 PM
The idea of Lou Ferrigno playing an aging hero is inspired.  I was thinking that it would be cool for all the aging supers to be played by actors who played supers, but most of the are still too famous (Tobey) or dead (Reeve).  Still, it would be fun for famous actors to play the aging supers.

Adam West. Burt Ward. Dean Cain. Lynda Carter. Kevin Conroy (he MUST play someone, or at least someone's voice). Terence Stamp. Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy counts, damn it!). Some of the folks from the crappier superhero shows that didn't get renewed, maybe?

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Reply #65 on: January 14, 2010, 07:40:10 PM
The idea of Lou Ferrigno playing an aging hero is inspired.  I was thinking that it would be cool for all the aging supers to be played by actors who played supers, but most of the are still too famous (Tobey) or dead (Reeve).  Still, it would be fun for famous actors to play the aging supers.

Adam West. Burt Ward. Dean Cain. Lynda Carter. Kevin Conroy (he MUST play someone, or at least someone's voice). Terence Stamp. Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy counts, damn it!). Some of the folks from the crappier superhero shows that didn't get renewed, maybe?

OK, I was trying to avoid this list of older actors, but I will suggest including Lee Majors in there.  He was the Six Million Dollar Man after all.

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Reply #66 on: January 14, 2010, 09:00:42 PM
First time I've ever posted to a discussion group...be gentle.

It seems to me that the whole underlying theme of UD is the difference between the comic book persona and how it really works in the "real" world.  The wonderful, creative stuff this material brings to the table is the anti-hero grime of how comic book (and TV) solutions don't work.  Dead is dead.  Good/Evil is often morally gray.

I love the idea of a Union Approved comic montage for the Previous section as the Union PR spins the reality into something they can work with.  Could also be used to show some of the things that the Normals think the Supers are doing which they really aren't.  It would help the viewer get into the mindset of a normal living in this world.  And then the episode can squash that perception with it's brand of reality.  Especially if the Supers themselves get to know about the montage and react to it ("I didn't capture that guy...he tripped and broke his leg.  The cops got to the scene the same time I did...", Captain Wonderful says as he drinks his beer in the break room.) 

I would also love to see more of a "Outer Limits" feel where the show doesn't always have to follow the same set of character, but can introduce new characters to tell a story and then let them fade into the background as other stories are being told.  I understand that Hollywood needs to have contracts and that means persistent characters, however that seems to get in the way of a story like this where we need to see different viewpoints from lots of different characters.

Regardless, you can count on me being there when this rolls out.



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Reply #67 on: January 14, 2010, 09:08:14 PM
Another idea that I'm not sure would work but sounds good is to have the "sanctioned" comic montage for the "previously" segment...but have it be glaringly different than what actually happened "previously." (There was a South Park episode that was essentially a clip show, but each "clip" was different than what was originally broadcast. Regular viewers got it immediately. It was a scream.)

You could make it a running joke. In the episode right after the first one with a "previously" segment, you could have the characters in the show saying "Did you SEE that crap they put in the comic book? That is NOT how it happened at ALL." (Like kendelsmith said.)

Then after that, it would be kind of fun to see how the PR people twist reality to make the comic sell better.

Obviously, you'd have to use it sparingly or it would get old, but....I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but I think that would be neat. :)

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Reply #68 on: January 15, 2010, 02:33:14 PM
To the question that was asked about how to make a heroes show critically successful, well I think you need to look at another genre that tried to answer the same thing:  sci fi. 

For the longest time, sci-fi shows would have good popular demand but no critical demand.  And I think this was the case because they made the sci-fi the centerpiece of the show.  What broke the mold and crossed over into both sci-fi and critical acclaim was the reboot of Battlestar Galactica.  And I think it did so precisely because it didn't focus on the science fiction - it focused on the dramatic elements of human life as they relate to the science fiction.  The corollary to this is that the science fiction was rooted in real physics and math as much as possible - the fighters flew largely following the rules of real orbital mechanics, or at least much more real than something like Star Trek.

And I think that's the key element of why the Union Dues stories have been so popular.  The super hero elements are very believable because they are rooted in the possible and not dreamed up just because of what sounds cool.  That realism element allows the story to take place in a very realistic world and environment which then becomes the backdrop for the dramatic elements.  And it is those dramatic story elements of how the characters react to this realistic super hero environment that makes the stories so damn good.



deflective

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Reply #69 on: January 16, 2010, 07:11:35 AM
the super-strategics (smarties) are really hard to write for.  i mentioned this before in one of the ud threads but it bears repeating.

superpowers are mostly straight forward, if you say a dude can lift a car then the dude lifts a car, but super intelligence must be shown to be believed.  if we're told that a character is so smart they have superhero status then they need to think of every possibility before we do.  every time they're caught by surprise while they're searching a building because they forget to check the vents it breaks suspension of disbelief.

of course, this depends on what kind of show this is.  plenty of successful shows are happy to designate a couple characters as 'smart' and then give them a pair of glasses and have them use the occasional scientific word.  csi built multiple shows around being smart when their science is actually garbage.

but if the show is shooting for some level of realism then it's worth double checking the smarties' actions every episode.  particularly if there are going to be multiple script writers, an editor that makes sure Skeleton Steele isn't missing the obvious could make all the difference.

played realistically, there's an interesting dynamic between the telepathic & strategic supers.  the union uses the telepaths to mindwipe & control their members but the strategics that figure this out (which they will) can start taking steps to counter it.  computers with deadman switches will send them emails or their reports will have coded messages in them.  in order for the mindwipes to have any chance of working their minds will need to be turned against themselves with orders like, 'think of any way you may be reminded of this event and come up with a way to prevent it from happening.'

the best example of a superstrategic battle i can think of is in deathnote, L is an excellent example of superintelligence played well.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2010, 07:13:51 AM by deflective »



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Reply #70 on: January 17, 2010, 09:23:12 AM
There are a ton of things that differentiate "Union Dues" from traditional superhero-type TV shows and films, mostly because the concept is really, really different.

"Union Dues" isn't so much about superheroes as it is about people who have terrible jobs. And jobs that they can't quit, to boot. It's a story about folks who were forced to relinquish every other ambition and dream they had, as well as family, friends, house, and home for the sake of working for an extra-governmental organization they hate at worst or tolerate at best.

It's a story about the child soldiers who don't die. It's about folks who struggle to form any sort of identity, much less a secret one.

And it's about a world where people with powers aren't revered, but rather feared. The Union exists to protect those with powers, not those without.

It's an inversion of most every superhero trope. "Union Dues" can work in the way that shows about other civil servants who hate their jobs work. It also carries the running plot of the Union itself, a morally-complex organization.

It's a bad thing that the Union exists, but the alternatives may be even worse.

No superhero TV show will ever fly without villains with powers, and where those guys come in is in the moral gray area. The Union appropriates its own personnel, but what about governments, powerful groups, and others? Children with powers are a commodity to be fought over, which is truly interesting, especially because the Union's indoctrination may not be as good as that of the other groups.



deflective

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Reply #71 on: January 19, 2010, 08:44:32 AM
i went back and relistened to a couple of ud stories and found that the superstrategic issues in my last post are pretty much ignored in this universe.  at best, the smarties have some savant-like abilities that activate when they think to turn them on.  the first person perspective from superstrategic characters gave no real indication of exceptional intelligence.  actually, the characters seemed like a couple of schlubs unable to take any initiative.  completely counter to their assigned roles in the group.

this could be accounted for by retcon.  the pyramids are afraid of low level members exposing the union's dark side so they're pummeled with telepathic commands that make them pliant, almost to the point of making them useless.  alternatively this is the way that the super-strategics are supposed to work (savant-like skills that aren't always active) which is fine so long as you let us know that's how things work.  that also makes the value of smarties questionable at best.

i took a closer look at one story, cleanup in aisle five, to see how i would have represented superstrategy in the character.  this isn't something i'd normally do, especially when i'm not sure about the author's intentions, but since opinions were solicited i'll give it a go.


when dealing with any type of superintelligence the reader should be given the sense that an enormous amount of information is being processed even when the story doesn't explicitly say so.  a good way to do this is to give a few early examples that show the character's abilities & tendencies so we have that impression.  for example:

"Skeleton Steele noticed that keiko cameras weren't fully stocked despite super-mart's policy of giving grand openings the first access to the national supply.  since global weather patterns have been relatively calm over the pacific there shouldn't have been any problem with delivery, a good indication of a disruption in manufacturing.

Steele made a mental note to check keiko's supply & labor situation, if they weren't having trouble then there they may be scaling back production for a new product launch.  either way, keiko's stock value was moving towards crisis and the opportunity & danger that represented."

doing this once or twice shows his intelligence instead of just telling us he's smart.  this example also exposes one of the background problems in this universe, why does the union hurt for money when it has dozens of people that can play the stock market like a child's game?  the union doesn't strike me as too moral to set up dummy corporations.


an example of Steele's totally passive nature came when he was directed to his card table & misspelled sign.  he was aware of his camouflage, why didn't he use it?

"Steele was well trained in the theory cryptic camouflage, there were times when his life depended on it, but right now it provided a comprehensive list of rules he needed to break to attract attention.  he went to the store's toy section and collected a variety of brightly coloured union bubble packs, concentrating on the heroes who's colour scheme complemented each other and contrasted with his own drab grey.  five minutes later he had them arrayed across the table and shelving, creating lines that naturally drew the eye towards him."

this is one situation where a superstrategic showed less understanding & initiative than a corporate drone.  additionally, superstrategics should be taken by surprise only very rarely.  when you're in first person this can be represented by the character expecting many events before they happen:

"Steele noted the table's location in relation to the doors and main aisles, if he had to choose a bad location for his display this was one of the worst.  he was out of sight of the customer's eyeline but still taking up space where a lot of people would be walking.  people would try to turn right into the table as they came around the corner.

he eyed the manager carefully, unsure if the placement was an intentional slight or just incompetence.  seconds later he decided he didn't care enough to find out.  either the manager would be surprised by the traffic problems and move him somewhere better or the manager would use it as an excuse to get angry at him.  he'd deal when it happened."

a superstrategic would be like Bourne sitting in the diner and knowing that the waitress was left handed, the locations of all five exits (including windows) and the most likely place to find a gun.  most store layouts and fire escape placement would be mildly frustrating because they could see better ways to arrange things.


but the part that struck me as most contrary to superstrategic nature was his reaction when, outside, one of the kids that were taunting him came back and asked for a signature.  there was only two possible situations there, the kid genuinely wanted a signature but was embarrassed to get one in front of his friends or he was a distraction for an ambush.  and even if he genuinely wanted the signature there was a real chance that his friends saw him come back and would come back as well.

either way, it was a situation of hightened danger that the superstrategic was completely oblivious to.  the superstrategic.  the guy who's superpower it is to read situations and anticipate actions.  we are given the impression that the superpowers in this universe are real but i have a hard time believing that the superstrategics have real powers in the stories so far.


debatably this is a pretty minor problem, certainly it seems like this isn't something that many people notice, but i'd argue that it creates a major problem for the people who do notice it.  one of union dues' main themes is trying to create idolized, comic characters in a messy, morally ambiguous world.  in order for that realistic world to be created properly the hero's superpowers need to written to interact naturally with it.  if powers stop working when it's convenient for the plot then it stops being superheroes in a realistic world and becomes superheroes in a dark world.  less watchmen and more judge dredd.

all this is to say that superstrategics are an unexpectedly difficult element to include in a world.  they have wide-reaching, unintuitive results and puts writers into the position where they need to think of everything before the audience does in order to maintain suspension disbelief.  it's not a decision to take lightly.



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Reply #72 on: January 19, 2010, 09:58:21 AM
A good example of super strategy was in the new Sherlock Holmes movie when he calculated the procedure and outcome of his fights before they happened.  Maybe on episodes focusing on strategists you could explore a similar vein of cinematics.

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Reply #73 on: January 19, 2010, 12:55:00 PM
Speaking of the cinematics of superstrategy, I can think of two examples that would be a neat way to show it happening in a compact way without too much extra effort.

In the movie Stranger than Fiction, the main character played by Will Ferrell is obsessed by numbers. He continually counts things and calculates things. The way they chose to show this was, in my opinion, brilliant: as he walked around, his counts and calculations were superimposed on the screen. He'd walk across the street toward a building, and each step was numbered as he made it. He was waiting for a bus and the bus schedule would be overlaid on the screen. There are tons of examples in the movie.

The other way is to switch to a superstrategic's POV for a few seconds and just show their point of focus as, say, a blinking bull's-eye on things he's noticing or including in his calculations. Rapid-fire, like he'd notice it. Then have him analyze it and only deliver his solution, not his entire reasoning. If you have someone question it, he could launch into a rapid-fire explanation.

But I agree with deflective: a superstrategic would never be surprised unless something COMPLETELY unforeseen should occur, and even then, he'd be the first to react. A superstrategic character would look almost prophetic or clairevoyant.

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Reply #74 on: January 19, 2010, 07:45:57 PM
"Union Dues" isn't so much about superheroes as it is about people who have terrible jobs. And jobs that they can't quit, to boot. It's a story about folks who were forced to relinquish every other ambition and dream they had, as well as family, friends, house, and home for the sake of working for an extra-governmental organization they hate at worst or tolerate at best.

This made me think that there could be an episode somewhere in the middle, a la "Epitaph One" (Dollhouse), where we see Antarctica, where all the supers who didn't join the Union and didn't escape ended up.

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