Author Topic: EP234: The Secret Protocols of the Elders of Zion  (Read 32324 times)

Swamp

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on: January 18, 2010, 07:22:05 PM
EP234: The Secret Protocols of the Elders of Zion

By Lavie Tidhar.
Read by Stephen Eley.

First appeared in The West Pier Gazette & Other Stories, 2008.

It was afternoon, after school has ended for the day. Sash has been working in the hydroponics gardens, helping the adults with the delicate work of picking the buds. It was flowering time, and the ganja plants were at the end of their cycle.

It was then, with her hands sticky with resin and her skin tingling pleasantly from the work and the heat, with Mama Kingston’s deep, melodious voice saying ‘a good harvest, child, a good harvest’ with a throaty chuckle, when Sash felt about herself the presence of Jah in everything she did and was profoundly happy: it was then that Sash discovered, for the first time, the existence of the Secret.


Rated R. Contains some violence and a plot heavily focused on drug use. If you’re good with that, there’s not much else likely to be problematic for younger audiences.


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stePH

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Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 09:19:37 PM
 :D Should have saved this one for the week of 4/20.

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Swamp

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Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 10:09:55 PM
You know, I've never been stoned before, but, after listening to that story, I sure am hungry all of a sudden.

Seriously, I thought it was a very imaginative story, especially the idea of packets of information being transfered over a chemical network to the brain. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 10:19:07 PM by Swamp »

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raetsel

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Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 01:38:09 PM
In the UK this hasn't yet shown up on the iTunes store  ???

Imagine my disappointment as I began my 30 mile drive to work during which I look forward to hearing the latest story and there on my iPhone was nothing, as it were.

Anyone else have this issue with iTunes?

Luckily I had some PodCastle episodes to catch up on so my journey was not totally ruined.  :D

Look forward to getting this story one way or another even if I have to download it myself. Dagnamit.



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Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 02:34:34 PM
Really fascinating story, and definitely an interesting title.



SFEley

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Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 07:19:54 PM
In the UK this hasn't yet shown up on the iTunes store  ??

FWIW: if you subscribe to the podcast in iTunes and let it automatically grab new episodes for you, this shouldn't be a problem. The Store listings are often delayed, true, but once you're subscribed you heck directly against the RSS feed. If it IS a problem for anyone, please let me know!

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raetsel

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Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 07:28:56 PM
In the UK this hasn't yet shown up on the iTunes store  ??

FWIW: if you subscribe to the podcast in iTunes and let it automatically grab new episodes for you, this shouldn't be a problem. The Store listings are often delayed, true, but once you're subscribed you heck directly against the RSS feed. If it IS a problem for anyone, please let me know!

Hi!

Thanks for the prompt response I wasn't really expecting one. Thanks for taking the trouble.

I do subscribe to the podcast feed via iTunes on my Mac and this then syncs to my iPhone but neither was showing the episode this morning

However it has just downloaded when I rechecked  the subscriptions.

A pleasure delayed in a pleasure intensified as they say.



Darwinist

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Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 08:49:38 PM
I really struggled with this story at first but it grew on me and I'm glad I stuck with it.   The Jamaica, ganj, ya-mon scene does nothing for me but the concepts were really cool and the story grew more interesting as it progressed.  Great reading by Steve as usual.  Good stuff. 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


KenK

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Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 11:39:59 PM
Didn't get this one at all.  ???



wakela

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Reply #9 on: January 20, 2010, 02:20:30 AM
Interesting combination of Rastas and nanotech.  That you have a story about mind-controlling religious fundamentalists who sell drugs to buy engines that will propel them to God who they think is an actual alien, and they're the good guys is pretty neat.  Also, I applaud Steve's decision to not try the accent if he didn't think he could pull it off.

The blatant and simplistic anti-American, anti-corporation stance it takes makes me angry, though.  Not because it's invalid but because it's cliche, and the truth is more subtle and interesting.  When the central message of your story is the same as that of the number one Hollywood movie in the world you are not challenging anyone's preconceptions.



stePH

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Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 02:50:31 AM


I dunno... maybe if I was still smoking up on a regular basis, this story might have grabbed me.  As it was, just OK.

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gelee

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Reply #11 on: January 20, 2010, 07:18:53 AM
Very good story, and well read. If there's a weakness, I think accessability for people who haven't heard much about Rasta might be an issue. If I didn't work with a few folks of Jamaican upbringing (not Rasta) who were kind enough to fill me in once, I would probably have filled in the blanks and come up with a bunch of Caribbean Cheech and Chong types in a smoke filled asteroid.
But then, I guess that's the risk when you write about real cultures that are just a step or two outside the reader's frame of reference.
I really enjoyed this piece, though the Evil Americans were straight out of central casting.



internalogic

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Reply #12 on: January 20, 2010, 07:43:22 AM
I guess that's the risk when you write about real cultures that are just a step or two outside the reader's frame of reference.

Well said, Gelee!

Excellent, excellent story.  Imaginatively conceived and well-executed!!!

The world-building aspect was subtly masterful.  Keeping things subtle runs the risk of the author's efforts being overlooked, but on the plus side it is very, very, very much appreciated by those who enjoy subtlety.

Great reading too by Steve.



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Reply #13 on: January 20, 2010, 01:52:20 PM
Some experiments are more successful than others I guess. I didn't get most of the cultural references because I didn't know anything about the Rastafarian ethno-religious subculture of Jamaica other than what I gleaned from Bob Marley songs. But still it's good that EP keeps on trying these things. Like Steve said in his  EP229 intro sci-fi tends to follow white, middle-class, suburban, American sensibilities for the most part and that there is much more than that out there. Good reading too.



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Reply #14 on: January 20, 2010, 02:39:50 PM
I enjoyed seeing a non-typical point of view for an SF story, but I had trouble relating to the core concept of the path to enlightenment is paved with smoking copious amounts of weed.  Not that I really have anything against weed, I'm just skeptical that it is the path to nirvana, that's all.

The american corporations were too anonymous and stereotypical.  It would've helped if they'd been referred to more often by name instead of constant reminders that they are American.

I had trouble following toward the end as the protagonist raised in stages of awareness.  I'm not sure if it was just because the necessary focus shift of the POV when she rises up, but I didn't follow the last third or so.  Maybe I should relisten...

Still, it was an interesting idea, and I liked seeing a non-typical space culture.  It was a good choice for the 'cast, though not among my favorites.

Did anyone else think it was funny to have a character named Chong visiting this pot-filled asteroid?  Where's Cheech?  :)



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Reply #15 on: January 20, 2010, 05:14:32 PM
I can't say this one will be in my top ten favorite episodes ever.  For some reason I kept thinking razor girls and jah rastafari space marines so I couldn't help feeling like I was following a frayed Gibson thread, my own problem I know.  Human network through botany just came off a little too pat altogether for me so, meh... I'm kind of terrified to think of myself tied into the minds of a generation of teenagers angst trapped in an asteroid, yikes!  I've smoked plenty of pot in my life, and honestly, hive mind or otherwise I'm not so sure I'd want to be hurtling through space on a ship where everybody is in a boon rage all the time.  Like others have already stated the cast seemed a little too cookie cutter to push this up the extra notch on my scale.  I am curious what will happen when the refugee commune makes it to jah's loving embrace...or is something more sinister trying to make stoned zombie space cadets from alpha centauri!?!?!?  Despite all the above I did enjoy the story.  If nothing else it wholeheartedly succeeded in making me take the next step after it was over and throw my imagination into the world.



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Reply #16 on: January 20, 2010, 05:31:21 PM
@ Ellipsis
Quote
For some reason I kept thinking razor girls and jah rastafari space marines so I couldn't help feeling like I was following a frayed Gibson thread, my own problem I know.

Mine too.  ;D I was waiting for Molly Millions to make an appearance.



MacArthurBug

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Reply #17 on: January 21, 2010, 02:21:43 AM
the ideas were really quite allright. The repeated (almost to the point of over repeating) refrences to marijuana didn't do it for me. Perhaps when I was in my idealist stage this would have hit me harder.  Nothing WRONG with the story, just not my bowl of ganja.

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stePH

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Reply #18 on: January 21, 2010, 02:49:17 AM
These were supposed to be Rastas, right?  I heard the word "doobie" and the word "joint", but not once did the narrative mention a "spliff".

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cdugger

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Reply #19 on: January 21, 2010, 03:08:25 AM
Ya know, I'm all for reading, or rather, hearing, cultures that are different than "mine". That's one of the things I like about all the Pods. They expose me to other sides of the coin, if you will. Some of them are good, some of them aren't.

I just couldn't get through this one. Turned off at about 15 minutes. I understand, in part, where it was going, and I appreciate the "technology" of spreading information in the smoke, but it just wasn't doing it for me.

The reading was the normal high quality I expect, and the writing was good. Just not my day for it, I guess.

I read, therefore I am...happy.


stePH

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Reply #20 on: January 21, 2010, 04:55:19 AM
Dave, you have a story that's sort of like this, right?  The Adventures of Super-Spliff and the Thai-Stick Kid, wasn't it?  ;D

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Scattercat

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Reply #21 on: January 21, 2010, 07:26:28 AM
Enjoyable story overall, and I didn't have much trouble easing into the alterna-culture scene.  It's not a favorite for me mostly because it spent more time telling us stuff than I really enjoy.  You really only need one iteration of the gnomic utterances about the young protagonist's messianic future; more than that becomes a titch redundant.

In particular, I felt like the last few minutes repeated themselves about three times before finally ending.  I actually started browsing websites and half-listening while I waited to see if anything other than the (well-earned and justified, but thoroughly) expected ending was going to happen.  When it didn't, I said, 'Hunh. Why didn't it end three minutes ago, then?' 

Not a dealbreaker, but I do prefer stories that don't belabor the point.  (On the other hand, I was almost the only person who liked "Uncanny Valley," so what do I know?)



raetsel

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Reply #22 on: January 21, 2010, 11:52:16 AM
Well after my earlier minor problems getting hold of this episode I enjoyed the story a lot.

Excellent reading as always though I did hear one click and a repeated sentence which I guess got missed in the edit. Good sound quality too.

I liked the idea of competing interests in the asteroid belt and habitats for Kibutzin (sp?) and Rastas are an obvious fit here along with the corporations.

The only quibble I had with the smoke as network idea was the speed of transmission through such a network. It seemed very fast and immediate where as perhaps there would be a delay for the information to permeate through the smoke.

Oh and the discussion between Moma Kingston and Dr Chung about how THC could be used for a network was a bit "Basil Exposition" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Austin_Powers

Still a good story and an unusual central concept, to my ears anyway.



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Reply #23 on: January 21, 2010, 02:57:15 PM
The only quibble I had with the smoke as network idea was the speed of transmission through such a network. It seemed very fast and immediate where as perhaps there would be a delay for the information to permeate through the smoke.

I had that quibble too.  The techies in the story even pointed it out, so I suppose that was hanging the lantern, but then the Rastas simply said "It's not a network!  It's a consciousness!"  Which seemed a little hand-wavey to me.  I suppose if the cloud were made of nanites and the nanites could broadcast messages over distance that would do it, but it was never really explained.  Maybe it was supposed to be more fantasy-ish "yeah we know it's not technically possible, but it's not technical so it's all good". 



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Reply #24 on: January 21, 2010, 04:55:42 PM
Remember that the POV of the story is the little girl who is "the first to not need the physical presence" of the smoke.  The impression I got was that the girl was basically a home-grown telepath of sorts, with the smoke acting as a sort of catalyst for her.  I suspect that might be why she was so quick and could reach so far into the Jah, and why there was the disconnect with how slow and limited it was for everyone else.



Yargling

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Reply #25 on: January 22, 2010, 02:34:53 PM
Interesting story; abit hard to follow at first, but after that very enjoyable - also, God is a giant smoke alien? :D



WillMoo

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Reply #26 on: January 22, 2010, 02:43:17 PM
I liked this one. It had a good concept behind it and flowed pretty well. The only criticisms I would have is that the overall story shows very little understanding of the Rastafarian way of life. It made it appear that smoking weed was the main tenet of the religion and that all Rasta's toke up. Smoking weed is akin to partaking in Communion. It would be strange to have a story where say, Catholics walked around all day in a wine induced state of awareness. I understand that the smoke was simply a conduit or plot device but it still fell a little flat.
Also, is it just me or is anyone else really, really tired of the Americans being portrayed as the bad guys? It all sounds a little flakey. The Jews are in league with the blacks to escape the bad Americans. Crap...the more I think about it the less I like the story.



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Reply #27 on: January 23, 2010, 12:38:45 AM
It would be strange to have a story where say, Catholics walked around all day in a wine induced state of awareness. I understand that the smoke was simply a conduit or plot device but it still fell a little flat.

actually I think that would be kind of awesome. Hehehe.

Also, is it just me or is anyone else really, really tired of the Americans being portrayed as the bad guys?

I'm not, really, cause it seems to me a lot of the time we are.



Kanasta

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Reply #28 on: January 23, 2010, 12:41:33 PM
How could we tell that the little girl was "the first to not need the physical presence" of the smoke? We were constantly told that the smoke was everywhere- so surely she was just inhaling secondary smoke?
I liked the story but I was a bit disappointed that it didn't match my expectations from the title- I thought it was going to be about a Woody Allen-like superhero getting bossed about by his parents  ;D



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Reply #29 on: January 23, 2010, 01:19:07 PM
@WillMoo, Talia
Quote
is it just me or is anyone else really, really tired of the Americans being portrayed as the bad guys?
Nope. It ain't just you.  ;)



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Reply #30 on: January 23, 2010, 08:17:54 PM
How could we tell that the little girl was "the first to not need the physical presence" of the smoke?

It's like the last line of dialogue in the story.  Right at the end, when she senses her brother even though he's held captive on the other ship.

(And FWIW, I can believe Americans as the bad guys a lot more easily than as the pure and holy good guys, which is how we mostly used to see them in various flicks and books.  Call it realism.)



WillMoo

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Reply #31 on: January 24, 2010, 12:40:15 AM
How could we tell that the little girl was "the first to not need the physical presence" of the smoke?

It's like the last line of dialogue in the story.  Right at the end, when she senses her brother even though he's held captive on the other ship.

(And FWIW, I can believe Americans as the bad guys a lot more easily than as the pure and holy good guys, which is how we mostly used to see them in various flicks and books.  Call it realism.)

So it is an either/or situation with you? Interesting that the US and us "bad guys" are the main people who show up to lend a hand to pretty much anyone in need and that our per capita charitable contributions is more than double that of any country. I don't expect that Americans always be shown as white hat heroes but recently the trend to portray Americans as bad guys shows an intellectually dishonesty and mental laziness.



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Reply #32 on: January 24, 2010, 12:59:26 AM
So it is an either/or situation with you? Interesting that the US and us "bad guys" are the main people who show up to lend a hand to pretty much anyone in need and that our per capita charitable contributions is more than double that of any country. I don't expect that Americans always be shown as white hat heroes but recently the trend to portray Americans as bad guys shows an intellectually dishonesty and mental laziness.

Never said it was either/or.  Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though.  Takes the taste of straw out.



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Reply #33 on: January 24, 2010, 02:36:51 PM
So, the story didn't do much for me. It wasn't bad, it just that once I got a few minutes into it and knew what was going on, the rest just seemed to follow a very predicatable path. And, as was already pointed above, it really liked hammering in the plot points in case we missed them the first time.

I wonder if there's any sort of guide for pronouncing Israeli names that I can buy Steve. Every time he said "Amnon" it hurt a little. (The accents didn't bother me, on the other hand).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 03:01:05 PM by eytanz »



kibitzer

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Reply #34 on: January 24, 2010, 09:02:20 PM
Sorry folks, found this one incredibly dull and uninteresting -- didn't listen to more than about five minutes. To be fair, I'm not that into Marley and rasta-culture so that may have put me off, dunno. I just found it in no way engaging.

Seriously, I thought it was a very imaginative story, especially the idea of packets of information being transfered over a chemical network to the brain. 

Sounds kinda like The Diamond Age.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 09:10:06 PM by kibitzer »



wakela

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Reply #35 on: January 24, 2010, 11:19:53 PM
How could we tell that the little girl was "the first to not need the physical presence" of the smoke?

It's like the last line of dialogue in the story.  Right at the end, when she senses her brother even though he's held captive on the other ship.

(And FWIW, I can believe Americans as the bad guys a lot more easily than as the pure and holy good guys, which is how we mostly used to see them in various flicks and books.  Call it realism.)
Agreed (though I would have to look up the charitable contribution numbers).
When it's a clash of economic systems Capitalism is the bad guy.
When it's a clash of cultures/countries the US is the bad guy.
When it's a clash of species humans are the bad guy.

Some nuance and/or variety would be welcome. 

Edited to fix the quote tags.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 11:38:20 PM by wakela »



WillMoo

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Reply #36 on: January 25, 2010, 02:00:07 PM
So it is an either/or situation with you? Interesting that the US and us "bad guys" are the main people who show up to lend a hand to pretty much anyone in need and that our per capita charitable contributions is more than double that of any country. I don't expect that Americans always be shown as white hat heroes but recently the trend to portray Americans as bad guys shows an intellectually dishonesty and mental laziness.

Never said it was either/or.  Thanks for putting words in my mouth, though.  Takes the taste of straw out.
Notice the punctuation mark at the end of the first sentence. Those little symbols  are clues as to how the sentence is to be read. In this case it was to be read as a question not as a statement. As it is a question, it is not putting words into your mouth.

Not that anyone cares, but here are the themes that bore the hell out of me: All men are bad, all white men are bad, Americans are evil, capitalists are evil, all gay characters are one dimensional in that their entire lives revolve around their homosexuality, supposed sci-fi stories that are really just another genre in space (space cowboy type of stuff) ... feel free to add your own.



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Reply #37 on: January 25, 2010, 02:47:41 PM
Ladies and gentlemen this is your 14.44 GMT cordiality reminder.  Everyone has different opinions, context is basically impossible on the internet and we're all here fr the same thing; to discuss the stories in a friendly, open, accepting manner.  Please pay particular attention to the words 'friendly' and 'accepting'.



Swamp

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Reply #38 on: January 25, 2010, 02:58:55 PM
Al beat me to it. 'Nuff said.

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Reply #39 on: January 25, 2010, 07:05:45 PM
Dave, you have a story that's sort of like this, right?  The Adventures of Super-Spliff and the Thai-Stick Kid, wasn't it?  ;D

Well, that wasn't the original title, but that was what it was renamed once Kevin Smith optioned the movie rights (in some weird alternate reality). It looks nice on the shelf next to my Bluntman and Chronic unrated director's cut  :D


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Reply #40 on: January 26, 2010, 12:05:04 AM
When it's a clash of economic systems Capitalism is the bad guy.
When it's a clash of cultures/countries the US is the bad guy.
When it's a clash of species humans are the bad guy.

Some nuance and/or variety would be welcome. 

I call confirmation bias.  I had to go back ten episodes before I found one (Pirate Solutions) which matched any of your descriptors, and even then the anti-capitalism was more of just pure anarchism.  "Everything That Matters" pretty much endorsed capitalism and thrill-seeking on multiple levels.  "Littleblossom" had Americans/International Peacekeepers as pretty obvious good guys, even if the protagonist didn't see them that way.  "Candy Art" was even a love song to capitalistic success and pasty white guys.  The other stories didn't really touch on any of this (unless you want to count "His Master's Voice" as being anti-capitalist because it riffed on the RIAA, or anti-human 'cause the heros were a dog and cat.)

Maybe it bugs you more when you see it, but it's hardly fair to say that EP isn't providing nuance or variety.



OsamaBinLondon

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Reply #41 on: January 26, 2010, 01:23:53 PM
I really had to persevere though the first ten minutes or so of this one, and even then it was barely worth it.  I have some compassion for the Jamaicans who have had to struggle with their image as ganja smoking, dreadlocked, rastafarians only to find it has follwed them into the sci fi genre and outta space.  Actually I give EP its dues for airing this one given its fairly unchartered perspective, even though I didn't think it was particularly engaging.  I also have to agree with many of the posts here, way too cliched too many sterotypes...



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Reply #42 on: January 26, 2010, 01:59:57 PM
I really enjoyed this story, it was fun.  Also nice to hear a piece that explored religion and spirituality in a way that didn't simply cast them as the villains.  I'm afraid after a recently scathing outro by Mr. Eley that this next comment won;t go over well, but I absolutely swear that I am not being sarcastic, but rather genuine.  I loved hearing the "click click" sound used to indicate another take was required, and then to hear the second version.  I like that kind of behind the scenes stuff.

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Reply #43 on: January 26, 2010, 03:12:07 PM
It looks nice on the shelf next to my Bluntman and Chronic unrated director's cut  :D

Ugh, I hated that movie.  They took a great comic book property and turned it into a ninety-minute gay joke.

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Reply #44 on: January 26, 2010, 09:02:37 PM
"How could we tell that the little girl was "the first to not need the physical presence" of the smoke?

It's like the last line of dialogue in the story.  Right at the end, when she senses her brother even though he's held captive on the other ship."



I didn't mean 'how could we tell she was connected to the consciousness'; I meant 'how could we tell she didn't need the physical presence of the smoke', because at a number of places in the story we are told the smoke is "everywhere" so she is always in its physical presence, even if she is not actually smoking the weed herself.

BTW, how do you quote someone without putting your whole post inside blue "quote boxes"? Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 09:07:54 PM by Kanasta »



tinroof

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Reply #45 on: January 26, 2010, 10:53:30 PM
I assumed it was that she was able to sense her brother without him being in contact with the smoke. And therefore she wasn't simply breathing in his thoughts like she did everyone else's. I don't know, I didn't really follow most of the technobabble.

As for quoting, it's just [ quote] [/ quote] without the spaces. You were probably missing the close tag.



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Reply #46 on: January 26, 2010, 11:03:20 PM
I assumed it was that she was able to sense her brother without him being in contact with the smoke. And therefore she wasn't simply breathing in his thoughts like she did everyone else's. I don't know, I didn't really follow most of the technobabble.

I agree with this assumption - the brother was being held captive on one of the American Corporate ships, and out of the range of the smoke.



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Reply #47 on: January 27, 2010, 04:44:58 AM
I too found this story "just okay" and for many of the reasons already mentioned.

What made this story memorable for me is the Rastafarian culture. My experience with Rasta is limited to some Bob Marley songs and the occasional dread I see around the city. So feeling like I was missing something from the story, and being that kind of geek, I checked out Rastafarian culture on the web. That was really interesting and enlightening. I learned so many things I never knew I didn't know. That's what I liked the most about this story.



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Reply #48 on: January 27, 2010, 08:16:48 AM
I agree with this assumption - the brother was being held captive on one of the American Corporate ships, and out of the range of the smoke.

Either way, she's totes the Chosen One who will lead the universe to Jah and the true understanding of love and etc.  She's allowed to have super-speedy access to Jah-powers and not be as limited by the physical smoke as the others are, is my point.



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Reply #49 on: January 27, 2010, 09:21:05 AM
polarising is good, right?


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Reply #50 on: January 27, 2010, 03:58:43 PM
Interesting story. I started by being surprised at the lack of content warning, but quickly realized why--"drugs" in another context don't really require a warning.

Know what really struck me about this story? Very Spider Robinson-esque. Spider has an obsession with communities becoming telepathic, and he's also friendly to mary jane himself. The idea that weed could serve as a mechanism for group telepathy--if the story had taken place in a dive bar in New York, I would have thought Spider himself wrote it. :-)



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Reply #51 on: January 28, 2010, 12:19:46 AM
When it's a clash of economic systems Capitalism is the bad guy.
When it's a clash of cultures/countries the US is the bad guy.
When it's a clash of species humans are the bad guy.

Some nuance and/or variety would be welcome. 

I call confirmation bias.  I had to go back ten episodes before I found one (Pirate Solutions) which matched any of your descriptors, and even then the anti-capitalism was more of just pure anarchism.  "Everything That Matters" pretty much endorsed capitalism and thrill-seeking on multiple levels.  "Littleblossom" had Americans/International Peacekeepers as pretty obvious good guys, even if the protagonist didn't see them that way.  "Candy Art" was even a love song to capitalistic success and pasty white guys.  The other stories didn't really touch on any of this (unless you want to count "His Master's Voice" as being anti-capitalist because it riffed on the RIAA, or anti-human 'cause the heros were a dog and cat.)

Maybe it bugs you more when you see it, but it's hardly fair to say that EP isn't providing nuance or variety.
sigh.  Scattercat, why do you think your cool logic is any match for my cozy righteous indignation.  I'll cop to some selection bias, and apologize to Mr. Eley and the EP crew in implying that EP does not present a variety of SF stories.  It does.  However, when a story (not just on EP) engages in social criticism either as it's main theme or as an aside, it tends to be criticizing the same things in the same way.  I glanced at back episodes too, and I'll admit most of the recent stories have not engaged in social criticism.   So I'll drop it.  For now. 



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Reply #52 on: January 28, 2010, 03:38:51 AM
However, when a story (not just on EP) engages in social criticism either as it's main theme or as an aside, it tends to be criticizing the same things in the same way.

Well, I don't have a survey of modern genre fiction handy, so I can't really address that thought.  I can understand being uneasy around politics in stories in general, certainly.  Some folks like art in their politics, some like politics in their art, and others just don't see the appeal in Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.



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Reply #53 on: January 28, 2010, 04:34:19 AM
When it's a clash of economic systems Capitalism is the bad guy.
When it's a clash of cultures/countries the US is the bad guy.
When it's a clash of species humans are the bad guy.

Some nuance and/or variety would be welcome. 

I call confirmation bias.  I had to go back ten episodes before I found one (Pirate Solutions) which matched any of your descriptors, and even then the anti-capitalism was more of just pure anarchism.  "Everything That Matters" pretty much endorsed capitalism and thrill-seeking on multiple levels.  "Littleblossom" had Americans/International Peacekeepers as pretty obvious good guys, even if the protagonist didn't see them that way.  "Candy Art" was even a love song to capitalistic success and pasty white guys.  The other stories didn't really touch on any of this (unless you want to count "His Master's Voice" as being anti-capitalist because it riffed on the RIAA, or anti-human 'cause the heros were a dog and cat.)

Maybe it bugs you more when you see it, but it's hardly fair to say that EP isn't providing nuance or variety.
sigh.  Scattercat, why do you think your cool logic is any match for my cozy righteous indignation.  I'll cop to some selection bias, and apologize to Mr. Eley and the EP crew in implying that EP does not present a variety of SF stories.  It does.  However, when a story (not just on EP) engages in social criticism either as it's main theme or as an aside, it tends to be criticizing the same things in the same way.  I glanced at back episodes too, and I'll admit most of the recent stories have not engaged in social criticism.   So I'll drop it.  For now. 

There may be a reason why it criticizes the same things in the same way.

Just sayin.



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Reply #54 on: January 28, 2010, 10:19:57 PM
I listened to this story over the weekend while weeding my garden (strangely appropriate, though the clover was probably unhappy about it) and I'm squarely in the "meh" camp.  I liked the premise of asteroid-based communities becoming totally independent and advancing science in their own way.  I enjoyed the culture portrayed and thought it was interesting how they are growing towards telepathy.  But...  I agree with earlier posters who said that the "villains" were one-dimensional.  It feels like they were just there to give the colony an excuse to take off, rather than providing some real points of controversy or conversation.

Also...  The title just seems too precious and clever for me to take the story 100% seriously.  Meh.



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Reply #55 on: January 29, 2010, 01:40:55 AM
Neat ideas, neat story... not sure how they escaped being blown to smithereens by the fleet, though. Did they have some means of protection that wasn't made clear?

Also, the characters didn't seem to realize that, although a self-sustaining asteroid colony makes a great generation-ship, it's just that- unless lifespans are artificially increased in some manner that wasn't detailed, none of the current population will be alive to reach Jah. Unless the Israelis have some kind of beaucoup stardrive...

I guess the technology isn't really the point of this story, and that's ok, but I do like consistency.

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Reply #56 on: January 29, 2010, 08:37:01 AM
Neat ideas, neat story... not sure how they escaped being blown to smithereens by the fleet, though. Did they have some means of protection that wasn't made clear?

I think, though it wasn't explicitly stated in the comic, that the Americans don't have spaceship-to-spaceship weapons - at least not ones that could damage an asteroid, and that their plan involved invasion with troops. Once the asteroid started moving, then they were out of luck.

Quote
Also, the characters didn't seem to realize that, although a self-sustaining asteroid colony makes a great generation-ship, it's just that- unless lifespans are artificially increased in some manner that wasn't detailed, none of the current population will be alive to reach Jah. Unless the Israelis have some kind of beaucoup stardrive...

I'm not sure that they would have been troubled by this. But then again, we don't realy know where Jah is. Maybe he's hovering just outside the solar system or something, and they'll be there in 20 years or so (well, ok, that's kind of silly, but it's not ruled out by the story).



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Reply #57 on: January 29, 2010, 03:07:21 PM
Okay, not great.  The framework of an excellent story was there, but there were a few things that fell short:
  • Some repitition of themes that did not add to their previous mentionings
  • Fairly 2 dimensional characters in Dr Chung, Mother Kingston, Charles and even the Jewish fellow
  • I got caught on the "And then they had a space drive" hand waving that happened.  Surely the Americans would have stopped the shipments of parts if they knew it was happening. And I'm sure that there would be a lot of other parties interested.
  • Why bring back Dr Chung a second time if they were so sure that he was snooping around for the source of the network technology?
That said, I did like the idea of smoke as a networking technology, and the idea of self-sustaining asteroid colonies.  I think the author did, too, and formed a somewhat weak story around an excellent idea. 

Final nerd-quibble:  Contrary to what the story said, space is indeed very very very empty.  Roughly 1 atom per cm3 empty.  1 gallon of water at that density would be about the volume of the earth, if my math is right.  There's a whole LOT of nothing out there. 

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Reply #58 on: February 02, 2010, 01:49:24 AM
Escape Pod, you have been one of the places I have been able to enjoy with my teenage son.  My teenage son, who has a substance abuse problem, will find any excuse to justify his drug use, to the point it has ruined his grades, his dreams of becoming a doctor, and generally cut him off from the non-stoner world.  Thanks for placing this SF style justification for how marijuana can be okay.  I had to listen to repeated requests to listen to this piece, and in the end I wondered if it would be different if the substance in question were ethanol, opium, or cocaine.  It didn't.  The cultural reference to Rasta and marijuana did not ring true as it would have if the discussion were about native american mescaline rituals- the native americans use mescaline as an aid to a solemn ritual- not for daily use, farming, or export, as the drug use was used in this story.  Meh and lame, and to a non-stoner falls flat. :(



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Reply #59 on: February 03, 2010, 07:17:06 AM
Dude ... if we smoke enough ganja ... we can escape the evil capitalist pig Americans and float into outer space.  Like, totally, man.

The blatant and simplistic anti-American, anti-corporation stance it takes makes me angry, though.  Not because it's invalid but because it's cliche, and the truth is more subtle and interesting.  When the central message of your story is the same as that of the number one Hollywood movie in the world you are not challenging anyone's preconceptions.

Yeah, I agree.



Talia

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Reply #60 on: February 03, 2010, 12:43:56 PM
Meh and lame, and to a non-stoner falls flat. :(

I am a non-stoner, and it did not fall flat for me. It would be fairer to ascribe your dislike of the piece to the issues with your son, not that you don't do drugs.

You don't have to be a drug user to like this story.



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Reply #61 on: February 03, 2010, 02:37:58 PM
Dude ... if we smoke enough ganja ... we can escape the evil capitalist pig Americans and float into outer space.  Like, totally, man.


Actually... IMO it's also a commentary on "if you don't like the policies and politics of the people around you, then leave". These people did just that. As an entire culture they had the testicular fortitude to do what politicos and famous people have threatened to do when the "wrong" person got elected/re-elected.

Tangent: did anyone else notice the recurrent themes in Sunday's McFarlane block on Fox? Cleveland Show was about how selling drugs hurts people but sometimes it's the only recourse they have, Family Guy was about the penal system (where a lot of relatively non-violent but multiply-offending drug dealers/users end up), and American Dad was about how addiction destroys families. Very preachy.

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Talia

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Reply #62 on: February 03, 2010, 03:38:20 PM
Methinks you're overthinking what are meant to be silly cartoons a little bit......




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Reply #63 on: February 03, 2010, 04:18:37 PM
...and American Dad was about how addiction destroys families. Very preachy.

The wife and I found the "Crack" pharmaceutical ad screamingly funny.

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Reply #64 on: February 05, 2010, 02:47:42 PM
Interesting concept.  I'm curious if the idea of this story was inspired from the Zion Rastafarians in William Gibson's Neuromancer (who were an asteroid mining community of rastas, smoking hemp, and listening to dub 24/7, and who ended up being pivotal to the story).  I was taken a bit out of the story by the reading, since none of the Rastafarians spoke with a patois, and instead sounded like they graduated from Harvard.  I don't know if Steve played with patois and decided that it didn't work, or maybe the story just wasn't written that way.  IMHO "Chiquita, this is Wang Chung." should have been "Dawta, dis be de Babylon man Wang Chung".



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Reply #65 on: March 09, 2010, 01:07:09 PM
I thought the story was fun and interesting, but the title was a serious flaw.

If you're going to give a story a serious title, then you should address that issue in some way.  You can't write a punny tale, give out a snorty laugh, and say, "Hah! Dude!  Made you look!"

Sadly, he had the material to do the job.  The story had strong religious themes, and the offworlder threat could have been motivated by prejudice and misinformation, rather than simple corporate greed.  Then the ending would make more sense, it would almost echo the post WWII Exodus to Israel.

Could have been a B but the title drops it to a C.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 01:12:56 PM by rayboston »



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Reply #66 on: March 09, 2010, 05:48:55 PM
I thought the story was fun and interesting, but the title was a serious flaw.

If you're going to give a story a serious title, then you should address that issue in some way.  You can't write a punny tale, give out a snorty laugh, and say, "Hah! Dude!  Made you look!"

Agreed.  It sort of takes an otherwise fairly straightforward story and turns it into a shaggy dog joke.



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Reply #67 on: March 16, 2010, 04:16:36 PM
I was taken a bit out of the story by the reading, since none of the Rastafarians spoke with a patois, and instead sounded like they graduated from Harvard.  I don't know if Steve played with patois and decided that it didn't work, or maybe the story just wasn't written that way.  IMHO "Chiquita, this is Wang Chung." should have been "Dawta, dis be de Babylon man Wang Chung".

On the contrary, I really appreciated Steve not doing an accent in reading this. And I liked how he did Charles's voice. It distinguished him as a loving brother without descending into a condescending stereotype.

As to the story itself, I am a little torn. On the one hand, the black little girl in me always squeal with delight at little black girl main characters. But at the same time, weed is present everywhere, which disturbed me a bit. I appreciated Steve's outro in that it put into words what I felt. The story provided a way to look at a religion in a completely new way and rubbed against our preconceived notions. Yet it still made me feel uncomfortable, mainly the whole Jamaican + weed thing.

And as for the title, honestly, I had no clue what the controversy in using it was all about. I had to look it up in Wikipedia.

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yicheng

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Reply #68 on: March 16, 2010, 04:56:03 PM
I was taken a bit out of the story by the reading, since none of the Rastafarians spoke with a patois, and instead sounded like they graduated from Harvard.  I don't know if Steve played with patois and decided that it didn't work, or maybe the story just wasn't written that way.  IMHO "Chiquita, this is Wang Chung." should have been "Dawta, dis be de Babylon man Wang Chung".

On the contrary, I really appreciated Steve not doing an accent in reading this. And I liked how he did Charles's voice. It distinguished him as a loving brother without descending into a condescending stereotype.
...

I don't know how doing an accurate accent can be labeled as a condescending stereotype.  It's not any different than doing a Brooklyn accent for a New Yorker, or a Southern Draw for a Southerner.  Most of the Rasta's I've known were from the carribeans and do talk like that (if not the patois, then with a definite accent).  Anyway, it's not a huge deal, but just sounded funny. 



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Reply #69 on: March 16, 2010, 11:31:14 PM
I don't know how doing an accurate accent can be labeled as a condescending stereotype.  It's not any different than doing a Brooklyn accent for a New Yorker, or a Southern Draw for a Southerner.  Most of the Rasta's I've known were from the carribeans and do talk like that (if not the patois, then with a definite accent).  Anyway, it's not a huge deal, but just sounded funny. 

Don' make a big ting about it, mon.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 02:13:38 PM by stePH »

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Reply #70 on: March 18, 2010, 02:01:56 PM
And as for the title, honestly, I had no clue what the controversy in using it was all about. I had to look it up in Wikipedia.

For me, the title seemed intentionally invocative of The Matrix, where protocols would refer to security protocols or computer protocols, there was an elder council leading the last human refuge known as Zion.  I wouldn't call it controversial, but it put me in a certain mindset for what to expect, and when the story itself came out the title just seemed like the punchline to a bad pun.  Granted, all those words had other associations long before The Matrix came out, but because this is an SF podcast, that was the first conclusion I jumped to.  And, whether that association was a good one or not, it does exist.  Sort of like, if you named a story "Man of Steel", a lot of people are immediately going to think of Superman.  If that doesn't mesh well with the story, then the title might distract rather than enhance the story.



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Reply #71 on: March 18, 2010, 02:02:40 PM
Then again, I'm not sure if that was the same reason other people didn't think it was a great title.  I could be the only one that made The Matrix memory association.



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Reply #72 on: March 18, 2010, 04:03:49 PM
Sort of like, if you named a story "Man of Steel", a lot of people are immediately going to think of Superman. 

It would actually be more like naming your story "Mein Kampf," and then having it be about, I dunno, a summer camp called "Mein Kampf" because it's held in an abandoned coal mine and the people who run it misspelled "mine" and "camp."  There aren't any famous racist rants called "Man of Steel."

It can work, but it's definitely something that's going to cause double takes and likely irritate some people.



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Reply #73 on: March 18, 2010, 04:06:36 PM
It would actually be more like naming your story "Mein Kampf," and then having it be about, I dunno, a summer camp called "Mein Kampf" because it's held in an abandoned coal mine and the people who run it misspelled "mine" and "camp." 

Someone needs to write this story. I want to read it! :p

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Reply #74 on: March 18, 2010, 04:30:44 PM
And as for the title, honestly, I had no clue what the controversy in using it was all about. I had to look it up in Wikipedia.

For me, the title seemed intentionally invocative of The Matrix, where protocols would refer to security protocols or computer protocols, there was an elder council leading the last human refuge known as Zion.  I wouldn't call it controversial, but it put me in a certain mindset for what to expect, and when the story itself came out the title just seemed like the punchline to a bad pun.  Granted, all those words had other associations long before The Matrix came out, but because this is an SF podcast, that was the first conclusion I jumped to.  And, whether that association was a good one or not, it does exist.  Sort of like, if you named a story "Man of Steel", a lot of people are immediately going to think of Superman.  If that doesn't mesh well with the story, then the title might distract rather than enhance the story.

Yeah, I totally thought of the Matrix too. That and Lauryn Hill.

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Reply #75 on: April 15, 2010, 06:03:59 PM
okay now.  anyone who was offended by the use of gonja in this story should also be offended y the use of Spice in Dune.



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Reply #76 on: April 16, 2010, 04:23:27 PM
okay now.  anyone who was offended by the use of gonja in this story should also be offended [by] the use of Spice in Dune.

I never said I wasn't offended by the "spice" in Dune:P

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