Author Topic: Pseudopod 182: The Dreaming Way  (Read 19452 times)

cdugger

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 144
  • I read to be smart...er.
Reply #25 on: February 25, 2010, 12:42:43 PM
Alright Jim! Great tale!

And the reading was perfect! CCC is quickly becoming my favorite.

This was a prequel to the last one, wasn't it? Sorry if you all have covered that, I haven't had the chance to read the comments.

I read, therefore I am...happy.


gelee

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • It's a missile, boy.
Reply #26 on: February 25, 2010, 01:41:18 PM
See, thing is, with the prequal label: We don't really know in what order they were written.  "Love Like Thunder" could very well be a sequal.  I think it more likely that they were written as part of a single larger narrative.



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #27 on: February 25, 2010, 02:28:50 PM
See, thing is, with the prequal label: We don't really know in what order they were written.  "Love Like Thunder" could very well be a sequal.  I think it more likely that they were written as part of a single larger narrative.

Love Like Thunder had to happen later, because it occurs during the aftermath of these events.



Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #28 on: February 25, 2010, 05:16:45 PM
I think Gelee was just saying that it might be that "Dreaming Way" was written after "Love Like Thunder," to fill in the gaps, or it might have been written before "Love Like Thunder" as part of a straightforward continuing narrative.  Just because we heard them in one order doesn't mean that's the order they were written in (or even the order they were meant to be read in.)



gelee

  • Lochage
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • It's a missile, boy.
Reply #29 on: February 25, 2010, 05:56:37 PM
I think Gelee was just saying that it might be that "Dreaming Way" was written after "Love Like Thunder," to fill in the gaps, or it might have been written before "Love Like Thunder" as part of a straightforward continuing narrative.  Just because we heard them in one order doesn't mean that's the order they were written in (or even the order they were meant to be read in.)
Yes, this :)



deflective

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1171
Reply #30 on: February 25, 2010, 06:39:10 PM
thanks for taking the time to clarify this gelee, i don't know why it was misunderstood so much



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #31 on: February 26, 2010, 04:22:54 PM
I think Gelee was just saying that it might be that "Dreaming Way" was written after "Love Like Thunder," to fill in the gaps, or it might have been written before "Love Like Thunder" as part of a straightforward continuing narrative.  Just because we heard them in one order doesn't mean that's the order they were written in (or even the order they were meant to be read in.)
Yes, this :)


Oh, okay.  I thought you were asking which story occurred first in the story's timeline.  As for which was written first, your guess is good as mine.  :)



pitmonkey

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • I'm just here for the beer... and stories.
Reply #32 on: February 26, 2010, 07:46:30 PM
Great story, fantastic read and could Alasdair's outros be any better?  Quality stuff.  I absolutely loved when that big ol piece from Dreaming Way or Love Like Thunder just dropped into place.

Keep up the excellent work.

Proud 1%er (w/in Escape Artists only)
Nothing else to see here folks.


Dave

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
    • I Can Bend Minds With My Spoon
Reply #33 on: February 28, 2010, 07:09:47 AM
Add me to the list of persons who would gladly purchase the collected Coyote Tales in a dead-tree edition, or as a spoken-word CD read by Mr. Conroy.

-Dave (aka Nev the Deranged)


GuildSteersman

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Reply #34 on: February 28, 2010, 04:19:56 PM
I enjoyed this story wholeheartedly. Did anyone else feel that the hitchhiker may have just been in her mind? Maybe she didn't have the powers at all.



Jim Bihyeh

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • It is the Tale. And the Teller.
Reply #35 on: March 02, 2010, 08:12:47 PM
Hello,

This is Jim Bihyeh here and I just listened to the podcast last night while driving back from Washington D.C.

I can't thank Cayenne Chris Conroy enough. His Coyote voice makes me understand the character with each draft I've written on the newer tales. Ben Philips and his editors run a tight ship: they whipped this story into fine podcast shape before it went live. And Alasdair's thoughtful outtro was excellent!

I wanted to answer as many questions as I could about the work and I'll take them one at a time.

And if you have questions that I'm not answering I'd love to get the feedback.  Nothing makes a writer clearer or more polished than a careful reader/listener.

The way you walked was thorny, through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the soil, the river enters the sea...


Jim Bihyeh

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • It is the Tale. And the Teller.
Reply #36 on: March 02, 2010, 08:22:11 PM
As for the order...

It’s amazing how sequencing can affect a story! Aristotle was right!

I wrote “The Dreaming Way” first. I’d been working on an outline for a YA novel titled “The Golden Bough” when I dreamt of Lynette Yazzie. Not only did I want to write the Navajo story of the Bear Maiden in a modern way, but I also wanted to explore the nature of dreams and perspective. Dondo Kee wasn’t written until a few weeks later. 

So there was little design in running this story after “Love Like Thunder.” I’d just submitted “Love Like Thunder” first because I liked it more. And the original draft of “The Dreaming Way” was so long that I didn’t think it could be podcasted on Pseudopod (yes, there is much more to Lynette’s story than is featured).

I hope that explains the strange sequencing.

And I’d agree that the Episode I comparison is a bit weird. The original Star Wars movies (Episode IV, V, and VI) were technically told “out of order,” but we still loved them because of their quality writing and direction. The first three – especially the second – were noticeably inferior films. And – of course – they didn’t have Han…

The way you walked was thorny, through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the soil, the river enters the sea...


Jim Bihyeh

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • It is the Tale. And the Teller.
Reply #37 on: March 02, 2010, 08:26:55 PM
on it's own merits a GREAT story. The ending wasn't predictable (to me) for a while and then it just made me sad. There was a beauty to the sadness here.

I can't thank you enough for the compliment. I wrote this story to communicate that beautiful sadness. Lynette is that same inevitable victim who is willing to destory the society and corrupt ways of life surrounding her. I don't known if this is an evil thing or not. It seemed that some of you thought her reaction to Rocky's death was realistic -even reasonable. That's very interesting to me - and not in a vague way. I think it says alot about how people can shed any imposed morality to defend their self-imposed dignity and revenge any self-fulfilling love.

The way you walked was thorny, through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the soil, the river enters the sea...


Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #38 on: March 03, 2010, 04:46:13 AM
And I’d agree that the Episode I comparison is a bit weird. The original Star Wars movies (Episode IV, V, and VI) were technically told “out of order,” but we still loved them because of their quality writing and direction. The first three – especially the second – were noticeably inferior films. And – of course – they didn’t have Han…

As I tried (and apparently failed) to clarify, the point I was making was that I really liked the implied storyline in "Love Like Thunder," which I was comparing to the implied storyline of the Star Wars movies (i.e. Darth Vader's fall and transformation).  I think one of the biggest weaknesses of the Star Wars prequels is that they were filling in the specifics of something that hadn't needed to be filled in; Darth Vader's tragic fall was shaped by the portrayal of his redemption.  In the same  way, I thought "Love Like Thunder" was stronger because we didn't know the specifics of the girl's motivations or the precise nature of her relationship to the strange old man, but we saw enough to discern the basic shape of things. 

Again, I have a strong (perhaps too strong) preference for hints, implications, and things left unsaid.  (Yes, I know that's not how the album name goes, but "allegations" was a terrible word choice.)  This story isn't bad, and you'll notice I never said it was comparable in quality to Episode I, but merely comparable in its disappointing detail that ruined my cherished mystery. 



Jim Bihyeh

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • It is the Tale. And the Teller.
Reply #39 on: March 03, 2010, 12:06:33 PM
This story isn't bad, and you'll notice I never said it was comparable in quality to Episode I, but merely comparable in its disappointing detail that ruined my cherished mystery. 

I understand your point about mystery: one of the reasons I fell in love with Stephen King's The Dark Tower series was its sense of history and mysterious, in medias res plot design. The Royal Hall. The Last Burning of Gilead. The Battle of Jericho Hill. These were convincing visions in the architecture of Roland's psyche. And I feel they've been ruined by the Marvel comic prequels. And even though I LOVE Peter David's work (especially the way he jump-started Aquaman in the 1990s) and the stellar art of Jae Lee, I just can't get into the comic adaptation of what is probably my favorite series of novels. When I see that a new collection or graphic novel has been released, it just makes a bitter taste in my mouth.

You're right: sometimes it's just better not to know and best not to show... Precious mystery is powerful and important.

Though, I did write Lynette first, so I suppose the resulting two stories were inevitably going to reveal one another.
 


The way you walked was thorny, through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the soil, the river enters the sea...


stePH

  • Actually has enough cowbell.
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 3906
  • Cool story, bro!
    • Thetatr0n on SoundCloud
Reply #40 on: March 03, 2010, 11:53:29 PM
I understand your point about mystery: one of the reasons I fell in love with Stephen King's The Dark Tower series was its sense of history and mysterious, in medias res plot design. The Royal Hall. The Last Burning of Gilead. The Battle of Jericho Hill. These were convincing visions in the architecture of Roland's psyche. And I feel they've been ruined by the Marvel comic prequels.

Like they weren't already ruined before that, by Stephen King's own volumes 5-7?

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #41 on: March 04, 2010, 12:03:31 AM
Though, I did write Lynette first, so I suppose the resulting two stories were inevitably going to reveal one another.

I kinda had the feeling you'd written this one first, anyway.  Can't really complain per se, but just... ah, well.  Everything's always gotta be nailed down, y'know?



Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #42 on: March 04, 2010, 02:28:47 PM
I understand your point about mystery: one of the reasons I fell in love with Stephen King's The Dark Tower series was its sense of history and mysterious, in medias res plot design. The Royal Hall. The Last Burning of Gilead. The Battle of Jericho Hill. These were convincing visions in the architecture of Roland's psyche. And I feel they've been ruined by the Marvel comic prequels.

Like they weren't already ruined before that, by Stephen King's own volumes 5-7?

I liked the series as a whole, as long as I retcon out the last 20 pages or so.



Jim Bihyeh

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • It is the Tale. And the Teller.
Reply #43 on: March 04, 2010, 05:16:19 PM
I just gave this story a second listen and realized the way this story, "Reservation Monsters" and "Love Like Thunder" are told from the perspectives of the main characters as part of the larger story, a method that gives Mr. Bihyeh a chance to mix up styles appropriate to the character, I am definitely hooked on this "series" and and am growing more eager to read (or listen to) what I hope will be a complete collection of Coyote Tales.

I would buy such a collection from Mr. Bihyeh, as I've already done for Eugie Foster.  Has he shopped these stories to a book publisher yet?

Believe me, when I do finally take these tales to a publisher (and if they are willing to take the risk to publish them) I'll be sure to announce it on Pseudopod.

And there is a larger story at work, believe me...

And I'm glad you picked up on the use of multiple characters. Navajo storytelling hinges on character perspective. While the Coyote figure is often a trickster in Native American folklore, in the Navajo perspective Coyote is not only a trickster, but a roamer, thief, warrior, gambler, villain, hero... it all depends on the perspective.

There is a very strong understanding of perspective in the Navajo Way. It's considered rude or "stupid" or strange to say that something simply IS. To say that Coyote is a deceptive villain would be better said - in the traditional way - as "Coyote is a deceptive villain, they say." The "they say" is key. I am a fan of this cultural, ingrained sense of caution.

Too bad Coyote isn't  :)

The way you walked was thorny, through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the soil, the river enters the sea...


Narfnitsirk

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Reply #44 on: March 09, 2010, 09:26:25 PM
As I listened, Love Like Thunder came back to me, and I realized where the story was going.  I kept wondering if maybe it would be different this time, I really liked Lynette, I didn't want her to kill those people.  Part of the fun, I thought, was watching the inevitable unfold and seeing how we got there.

I don't think it would be much of a risk for a publisher to take these on, they're really great tales, well written and well thought out.



Azarel

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Reply #45 on: March 11, 2010, 08:01:44 AM
"Love like Thunder" is one of my all time favorite Pseudopod episodes.  This is among 2 episodes that I tried to have my wife listen to ... in the vain hope that she 'gets' the beauty of audio fiction (alas!).

Mr Cayenne Chris Conroy's voice talents are **outstanding**.  I especially love his 'Coyote' voice.

The Dreaming Way was a pleasant re-immersion into that world of the Navahoe.  And I hope for many more tales from the author. 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:05:31 AM by Azarel »



Jim Bihyeh

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • It is the Tale. And the Teller.
Reply #46 on: March 12, 2010, 05:09:09 PM
"Love like Thunder" is one of my all time favorite Pseudopod episodes.  This is among 2 episodes that I tried to have my wife listen to ... in the vain hope that she 'gets' the beauty of audio fiction (alas!).

Mr Cayenne Chris Conroy's voice talents are **outstanding**.  I especially love his 'Coyote' voice.

The Dreaming Way was a pleasant re-immersion into that world of the Navahoe.  And I hope for many more tales from the author. 

I'm so glad to hear you enjoyed "Love Like Thunder"! It's always great to hear that someone appreciates the work so much that they're willing to use it to convert their loved ones  :)

I'd agree. It's the greatest of fortunes to be able to have my work read by Mr. Conroy. His Coyote voice works so well. And I can't wait to write more of these tales. I miss the Navajo Reservation whenever I have to be away, and so these stories are an awesome way for me to revisit all my old haunts on "da Rez."


The way you walked was thorny, through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the soil, the river enters the sea...


eytanz

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6109
Reply #47 on: March 21, 2010, 01:42:12 PM
It took me a while to get to this one, mostly because, once I heard the first few minutes, I remembered the story from "Love like thunder" and knew where it was going, and decided it wasn't right for my mood at the time. But now that I've heard it, I have a couple of comments:

A. On it's own merits, it's a very good story, well written.

B. It really adds very little to "Love Like Thunder" and "Reservation Monsters". The plot was revealed by "Love Like Thunder", the themes of alienation and hardship of being an outsider in the reservation were captured equally well by "Reservation Monsters". Had I heard this one before "Love Like Thunder", I would have appreciated it much more for the plot value, and LLT would not have lost much as this is just the backdrop to that anyway.

Still a very good story, though, and an excellent narration.



Bdoomed

  • Pseudopod Tiger
  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5891
  • Mmm. Tiger.
Reply #48 on: March 21, 2010, 06:09:31 PM
finally found time to listen, oh man this was awesome.  It definitely works better without the knowledge of "Love Like Thunder", but I also liked the notion of knowing that Lynette would start sniping people.
The image of children playing, obliviously, in pools of blood is very awesome and creepy.  I just imagined someone walking by the school, someone not under Lynette's influence.  *chuckle*
And I like seeing how conniving the hitchhiker is.  I'll have to give "Love Like Thunder" another listen now, and I'd love to hear more Coyote Tales!

oh, and the narration was spot on, great job!

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Jim Bihyeh

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • It is the Tale. And the Teller.
Reply #49 on: March 22, 2010, 12:42:00 PM
finally found time to listen, oh man this was awesome.  It definitely works better without the knowledge of "Love Like Thunder... I just imagined someone walking by the school, someone not under Lynette's influence.  *chuckle*
And I like seeing how conniving the hitchhiker is.  I'll have to give "Love Like Thunder" another listen now, and I'd love to hear more Coyote Tales!

I'm glad that the world of Ganado, Arizona was worth your time! And I agree... can you imagine seeing that basketball game at recess if you were driving by on the highway? Or walking down from the hill above the middle school? Horrors within horrors.

And I'm also flattered that you'd like to see more of the Coyote Tales! I cant wait to finish them. I'm currently polishing the final draft of a tale titled "Black Body" and will soon start the draft for a tale titled "Walk in Beauty."

And believe me, that bastard Coyote gets even more conniving as we go.




The way you walked was thorny, through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the soil, the river enters the sea...