Author Topic: Fantasy Literature Poll - Group C  (Read 8559 times)

Ocicat

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on: May 27, 2010, 05:46:00 PM
Last week 5 entries got only 1-2 votes while Princess Bride dominated, getting votes from all but 4 participants.  Apparently we all love our ROUS's and shrieking eels.  Meanwhile, The Wizard of Oz and Golden Compass were having a hard fought competition for the coveted second place slot.  In the end, the dæmons came through and will appear in the next round.

This week we've got anthropomorphic mice, assistant pig keepers, the London Underworld, dual wielding drow, time traveling fae, and classic Sword and Sorcery tales from before history and after the apocalypse. 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 05:48:53 PM by Ocicat »



eytanz

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Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 07:12:32 PM
I don't want to start a genre debate, but I'm curious as to why you chose the Saga of the Pliocene Exile by Julian May as a fantasy series rather than Science Fiction - it has no magic and a lot of technology.

I'm still voting for it, though, because I think it's a brilliant series.

(Note: the same is true of "the dying earth", but there the magic/technology line is deliberately obscured, while that is not true in Saga of the Pliocene Exile)



Ocicat

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Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 07:21:32 PM
I don't want to start a genre debate, but I'm curious as to why you chose the Saga of the Pliocene Exile by Julian May as a fantasy series rather than Science Fiction - it has no magic and a lot of technology.

I've actually never read it - it's here because Poppydragon nominated it.  However, from what I know about it there are aliens that are vulnerable to iron and end up becoming the basis for the fae legends.  So certainly playing with fantasy tropes.

And there are several series that I did put in the poll that are technically Science Fiction, but are using that to get to a fantasy type of story.  Pern being the primary example.  The dragons there are genetic constructs, but regardless of how you get there the series is about people riding frickkin' dragons which is pretty much fantasy to the teeth.



eytanz

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Reply #3 on: May 27, 2010, 07:26:28 PM
I don't want to start a genre debate, but I'm curious as to why you chose the Saga of the Pliocene Exile by Julian May as a fantasy series rather than Science Fiction - it has no magic and a lot of technology.

I've actually never read it - it's here because Poppydragon nominated it.  However, from what I know about it there are aliens that are vulnerable to iron and end up becoming the basis for the fae legends.  So certainly playing with fantasy tropes.

And there are several series that I did put in the poll that are technically Science Fiction, but are using that to get to a fantasy type of story.  Pern being the primary example.  The dragons there are genetic constructs, but regardless of how you get there the series is about people riding frickkin' dragons which is pretty much fantasy to the teeth.

Fair enough; though I think that Pliocene Exile really is using some Fantasy elements to tell what is essentially a very Science Fiction kind of story, rather than the reverse that is Pern or Dying Earth.



gelee

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Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
Nice to see The Book of Three gettin' some love.  That was really the group of books that got me reading fantasy fiction in the first place.



Father Beast

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Reply #5 on: May 30, 2010, 03:10:39 PM
I don't want to start a genre debate, but I'm curious as to why you chose the Saga of the Pliocene Exile by Julian May as a fantasy series rather than Science Fiction - it has no magic and a lot of technology.


Since when are mental powers not magic?



Scattercat

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Reply #6 on: May 30, 2010, 03:19:36 PM
I don't want to start a genre debate, but I'm curious as to why you chose the Saga of the Pliocene Exile by Julian May as a fantasy series rather than Science Fiction - it has no magic and a lot of technology.


Since when are mental powers not magic?

The idea that the electromagnetic impulses of the brain can have some sort of impact on the outside environment isn't necessarily improbable, if deeply unlikely.  Still, what is an fMRI if not, in some ways, a mind-reading device? 



eytanz

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Reply #7 on: May 30, 2010, 06:42:07 PM
I don't want to start a genre debate, but I'm curious as to why you chose the Saga of the Pliocene Exile by Julian May as a fantasy series rather than Science Fiction - it has no magic and a lot of technology.


Since when are mental powers not magic?

Fair enough, but by that criteria a *lot* of canonical science-fiction (e.g., Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Dune, and much, much more) would be classified as fantasy. I agree that that just means that the borderlines are blurry; note that I was not contesting the choice to include the series in this contest, just curious as to the reasoning.

Quote
The idea that the electromagnetic impulses of the brain can have some sort of impact on the outside environment isn't necessarily improbable, if deeply unlikely.  Still, what is an fMRI if not, in some ways, a mind-reading device? 

A brain-reading device. As someone who occasionally works in neuroimaging, I find it somewhat irritating when people confuse the two.



Scattercat

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Reply #8 on: May 30, 2010, 09:33:32 PM
Quote
The idea that the electromagnetic impulses of the brain can have some sort of impact on the outside environment isn't necessarily improbable, if deeply unlikely.  Still, what is an fMRI if not, in some ways, a mind-reading device? 

A brain-reading device. As someone who occasionally works in neuroimaging, I find it somewhat irritating when people confuse the two.

Many would argue that there is no difference.  As in I've seen thousands of replies in single threads on this discussion.



eytanz

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Reply #9 on: May 30, 2010, 10:11:16 PM
Quote
The idea that the electromagnetic impulses of the brain can have some sort of impact on the outside environment isn't necessarily improbable, if deeply unlikely.  Still, what is an fMRI if not, in some ways, a mind-reading device? 

A brain-reading device. As someone who occasionally works in neuroimaging, I find it somewhat irritating when people confuse the two.

Many would argue that there is no difference.  As in I've seen thousands of replies in single threads on this discussion.

What discussion? The reality of psychic powers or the nature of fMRI?



Ocicat

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Reply #10 on: May 30, 2010, 10:41:52 PM
I'm pretty sure he meant mind vs. brain. 

In any case, psychic powers are a pretty established SF trope, regardless of how improbable you might feel them to be.  I certainly remember them being taken a lot more seriously as a possibility back in the 70's, though any presented evidence was of course horrid from a scientific perspective. 



eytanz

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Reply #11 on: May 30, 2010, 11:07:40 PM
I'm pretty sure he meant mind vs. brain. 

The just confuses me further - I could imagine people arguing for all sorts of relationships between the mind and the brain, within the context of debating psychic abilities, or the context of debating modern technology. But I'm really unclear as to how anyone could say that there is no difference between mind and brain, unless they simply don't speak English.



Scattercat

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Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 01:08:41 AM
You corrected "mind-reading" to "brain-reading," implying you see a difference between the neurochemical reactions/electric impulses and the mind-as-person.  I just pointed out that not everyone sees such a distinction.  If that wasn't what you were implying, then I have no idea what you were correcting me on.



eytanz

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Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 07:28:20 AM
You corrected "mind-reading" to "brain-reading," implying you see a difference between the neurochemical reactions/electric impulses and the mind-as-person.  I just pointed out that not everyone sees such a distinction.  If that wasn't what you were implying, then I have no idea what you were correcting me on.

The correction was not about the relationship between mind and brain, but about the limits of fMRI. The first is that fMRI does not measure neurochemical reactions or electrical impulses. It measures the level of oxygen in the blood, which is an indirect measure of brain activity. The second is that fMRI is slow, much slower than actual brain processes. But most importantly, the problem with fMRI is that there is no general, task-independent way of analyzing the data. fMRI data is analyzed by comparing brain activity in two or more states. In other words, if you know what a person is doing, fMRI can tell you what parts of the brain are involved. As a result of this, and other factors, if you just get a series of fMRI snapshots, you cannot use them with any accuracy to figure out what a person is doing. This is not just a limitation of our knowledge, but a limitation on the technology.

In other words, even if you accept that the mind is entirely generated by the brain (which, for the record, I do), it is not appropriate to call fMRI a "mind-reading" device. It is a device for figuring out what the brain does, given pre-knowledge of what the mind is doing. This knowledge may well help us develop mind-reading devices in the future, but that's not the same thing.



Scattercat

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Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 07:33:25 AM
Fair enough, I suppose.  I'm not terribly surprised that people who aren't in the field wouldn't make that distinction, however, since you're using the terms fairly technically and with a lot of specific knowledge.  I know the vague basics of how fMRI works, but only the vague basics.  It feels a bit like a miner criticizing someone for referring to a "lode" instead of a "vein." (Or vice versa; I'm not necessarily current on mining terminology either.)



eytanz

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Reply #15 on: May 31, 2010, 07:51:08 AM
Fair enough, I suppose.  I'm not terribly surprised that people who aren't in the field wouldn't make that distinction, however, since you're using the terms fairly technically and with a lot of specific knowledge.  I know the vague basics of how fMRI works, but only the vague basics.  It feels a bit like a miner criticizing someone for referring to a "lode" instead of a "vein." (Or vice versa; I'm not necessarily current on mining terminology either.)

Except that the mass media doesn't normally post articles with all sorts of weird claims about the capabilities of lodes and veins (full disclosure: I have no idea what a lode is, or how it differs from a vein).

My first response here was not particularly helpful, and I see that now, but my goal was not to correct terminology, it was just to say that fMRI, while a great piece of technology in advancing our understanding of the brain (and the mind), cannot actually read minds (in a non-technical sense).



Father Beast

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Reply #16 on: May 31, 2010, 11:41:15 AM


Fair enough, but by that criteria a *lot* of canonical science-fiction (e.g., Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Dune, and much, much more) would be classified as fantasy.

Obviously, they are fantasy. And what's wrong with that? It doesn't mean that they aren't science fiction also.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 07:02:08 PM by Father Beast »



Scattercat

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Reply #17 on: May 31, 2010, 07:28:47 PM
I guess I didn't make it clear that I understood the limitations of fMRI in my comment, either, though I'm mildly disappointed that you thought I didn't know the limits of fMRI when I made a rhetorical point about science fiction.  :-)  :-P



Ocicat

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Reply #18 on: June 01, 2010, 07:47:48 AM
The Chronicles of Pyrdain are, quite simply, the best children's books of all time.  They take all the basics of Welsh legend, twist it a bit, and repackage it in a modern format as a fantastic coming of age story.  They have magic and adventure, frightening villains and funny sidekicks, and a really well constructed world.

When I was a kid, these books are what really turned me into a lifetime reader.  My third grade teacher saw that I was too advanced for what the class was reading, and had me read these instead.  I'd already read The Hobbit, but I thought the tales of Taran, Assistant Pig Keeper were much much better.  And they are. 

If you have kids, read these to them - they're great out loud.
If you have any interest in Celtic / Wesh mythology, read them yourself.  I can't think of a better primer.
If you just love a good hero's journey story that's well written and funny, read them.



gelee

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Reply #19 on: June 02, 2010, 05:10:19 PM
I'd already read The Hobbit, but I thought the tales of Taran, Assistant Pig Keeper were much much better.  And they are. 

If you have kids, read these to them - they're great out loud.
If you have any interest in Celtic / Wesh mythology, read them yourself.  I can't think of a better primer.
If you just love a good hero's journey story that's well written and funny, read them.
I can't agree strongly enough.  These were the first books I read that left me sad when I finished them because I didn't want The Story to end.  I'd have to say those were the books that really turned me into a reader.  Later came Lewis, Eddings, Weiss, Hickman, and the rest, always looking for a way to keep The Story from ending.
I'm still looking :)