Hugo noms a big deal? (split from EP246)

[KenK]

This may sound blasphemous, and I know it is an EP tradition and all, but is featuring all the Hugo award noms really such a big deal? It seems like a lot of work for EP to obtain rights for stories that seem to leave a lot to be desired, Hugo noms or not. And judging by all the "mehs" and such that the commenters here are putting out in response for me it begs the question of wether this game is worth the candle? Just a thought.

[Talia]

This may sound blasphemous, and I know it is an EP tradition and all, but is featuring all the Hugo award noms really such a big deal? It seems like a lot of work for EP to obtain rights for stories that seem to leave a lot to be desired, Hugo noms or not. And judging by all the "mehs" and such that the commenters here are putting out in response for me it begs the question of wether this game is worth the candle? Just a thought.

I think maybe people just don't like this year's batch of stories. Last year's batch were largely recieved VERY well.

I enjoy hearing the Hugo nominees each year. I also think its a great way for EA to sort of tie in to the Sci-Fi community as a whole, and I do think that sort of community engagement is important.

So yes, I do think its a big deal. Even if people dont care for the stories. I've also noticed that the people who post on the boards here tend to be very, very picky about literature - moreso than most people I know. Which is fine - people seem to come here to engage in serious literary criticism, which is cool. So I suspect by and large the stories are recieved by the general listening public well enough (although so far I do feel last year's entries were stronger. But then, who can really compare to Ted Chiang? Also, the best two stories are yet to come. 'Bridcicle' I can testify is a really fascinating, engaging tale, and the Kij Johnson story, though I haven't heard it, I understand to be excellent. And I really really loved her '26 monkeys' story from last year).

[Alasdair5000]

This may sound blasphemous, and I know it is an EP tradition and all, but is featuring all the Hugo award noms really such a big deal?

Hi Ken:)

Interesting point but, well, from my point of view the answer's pretty much yes.  The Hugos and Nebulas are the literary science fiction Oscars (I'm sure someone will be along in a moment to tell me one of them's the Oscars and the other's the BAFTAs:)) so it is more than a bit prestigious.

It seems like a lot of work for EP to obtain rights for stories that seem to leave a lot to be desired, Hugo noms or not.

I cry at the end of Mamma Mia, a film I've seen three times.  One of my favorite kid's books is a story about an invasion of robotic flying hats and its sequel, where aliens attempt to conquer Earth using everlasting chocolate bars (Seriously).  My point is, taste is completely, utterly relative.  I love some stuff which other people hate, I don't like some stuff (Monty Python.  Basically all of it.) that other people love and I am exactly the same as pretty much everyone else in the world in that regard.  For you these stories leave a lot to be desired.  Chances are some people love them.

And judging by all the "mehs" and such that the commenters here are putting out in response for me it begs the question of wether this game is worth the candle? Just a thought.

As I say, responses vary and there's no way of knowing the responses of the swathes of people not on the forum who download the episode.  Some of them will love it, some'll hate it but they'll all have the option of listening to the stories that have been voted the best short fiction SF has to offer this year.  And of course vehemently disagree with the choices:)

[Unblinking]

Regarding the question of whether Hugo nominees should be played here:  I think they should.  Like Al said, they're one of the major awards for SF, so I want to know what people are choosing out there.  I don't get much chance to read with my eyes, which is where most of the noms come from, so I'm glad to be able to read with my ears. 

I tend not to hate the Hugo noms, but they don't wow me. That might be because of raised expectations since these have been chosen by some subset of fans as the "best" of the year.  I find it worthwhile to listen to them, if only to say that, in general, most of the far on Escape Pod was more worthy.  I don't like the apparent tendency to reward Big Name authors simply because they're Big Name authors--I'd rather see them compared on equal footing with newbies, but it's a fan voted contest, so I can't really complain about the voting habits of the fans.  If it were judged by a committee then I'd probalby complain about that.

[DKT]

This may sound blasphemous, and I know it is an EP tradition and all, but is featuring all the Hugo award noms really such a big deal? It seems like a lot of work for EP to obtain rights for stories that seem to leave a lot to be desired, Hugo noms or not. And judging by all the "mehs" and such that the commenters here are putting out in response for me it begs the question of wether this game is worth the candle? Just a thought.

Ultimately, it's going to be up to Mur, but I would say, yes. It really is a big deal. Before listening to EP, I had no idea what was being nominated for short stories, and I certainly didn't read them (and in some cases - couldn't read them for free, because they were mostly published in print-only magazines). But Steve brought as many of the Hugo nominees to EP as he could get every year, and made it possible for me to listen to them. And I'm grateful for that, even if I didn't always like the stories. (Which I think there's been at least one every year - and despite me not liking it - someone else always did.) So, as a listener, I'm personally grateful for Hugo month. That you don't like a given story (or three), and that other people may not have been in love with one or more either is totally cool - nobody likes every story.

And, no, it doesn't sound blasephemous to suggest that EP should maybe not run the Hugos. But as the person who took the time out of my busy life a) my family, b) my day job, c) editing PodCastle, d) and what little is left of my free time - to acquire all the Hugo nominated short stories, to find readers and hosts for each one, and to talk with the editors of the magazines that in some cases had the story and/or audio rights and getting permission to bring it here to EP, during the interim between Steve and Mur, all to help EP keep running, it does sound pretty damn ungrateful.

[Swamp]

And, no, it doesn't sound blasephemous to suggest that EP should maybe not run the Hugos. But as the person who took the time out of my busy life a) my family, b) my day job, c) editing PodCastle, d) and what little is left of my free time - to acquire all the Hugo nominated short stories, to find readers and hosts for each one, and to talk with the editors of the magazines that in some cases had the story and/or audio rights and getting permission to bring it here to EP, during the interim between Steve and Mur, all to help EP keep running, it does sound pretty damn ungrateful.

Hey, Dave, I just want to let you know that you are Totally Awesome.  Thank you for your time and dedication.

[DKT]

I appreciate that, man. And I would do it again because I love EP, I personally love the tradition, and I wanted to make sure it continued this year.

But the reason I posted here is because all of us at EA (including you) put in a lot of our free time doing stuff here because we love doing it, and we want to give back.

Somebody saying that he didn't like a story is expected - we never expect to please anyone. Somebody saying he doesn't like the Hugo nominees so maybe EP shouldn't run them anymore seems, at best, to lack perspective. Because I don't believe the Hugos are simply a popularity contest. I believe that the people who vote for them value speculative fiction enough to go to WorldCon, or pay for a supporting membership, and pick which stories they like best. Even if they are at odds with my own reactions to a given story, or somebody else's.

(And I understand KenK pointed out other people's "meh" reactions to stories - but there's another discussion elsewhere suggesting that meh is not a negative response to a story. In fact, I suspect that very few people who posted that they didn't care for a particular Hugo story or three are actually suggesting EP should consider not running them. Keep in mind, this doesn't take into account for the other 30,000 listeners who don't post on the forum.)

In the end, it's like Steve said way back when: "If you didn't like this story, we'll have different words in a different order for you next week."

[Unblinking]

But the reason I posted here is because all of us at EA (including you) put in a lot of our free time doing stuff here because we love doing it, and we want to give back.

I've been continually impressed by the dedication of those volunteering their time to maintain the quality of all the Escape Artists casts.  that goes for DKT here.  It goes for the mods for putting in the time to keep the flash fiction contests running smoothly (which has been a blast!).  It goes for the readers who are volunteering their efforts to lend different voices for different stories.  To the editors for picking stories I like much more consistently than any other publications.  To the hosts for providing extra content above and beyond the stories themselves.  To Inara for making the contract-handling extremely smooth and prompt (from the writer's side).  And the rest of the staff who generally make the casts worth listening to, and the forum worth visiting.

I should probably say this more often, but since the subject came up:  You all rock!

[Unblinking]

Keep in mind, this doesn't take into account for the other 30,000 listeners who don't post on the forum.)

Wow, is that how many listeners EP is up to by now?  I hadn't heard numbers new than a metacast by Steve a couple years ago.  How're the listener numbers for PP and PC (if I may be so bold to ask)?

[DKT]

Keep in mind, this doesn't take into account for the other 30,000 listeners who don't post on the forum.)

Wow, is that how many listeners EP is up to by now?  I hadn't heard numbers new than a metacast by Steve a couple years ago.  How're the listener numbers for PP and PC (if I may be so bold to ask)?

Not quite in the same league

[Unblinking]

Keep in mind, this doesn't take into account for the other 30,000 listeners who don't post on the forum.)

Wow, is that how many listeners EP is up to by now?  I hadn't heard numbers new than a metacast by Steve a couple years ago.  How're the listener numbers for PP and PC (if I may be so bold to ask)?

Not quite in the same league

Well, EP had a bit of a running start on the other two.     I think that metacast way back when had said that EP (at the time) had 20k or so, and the other two had about 8k apiece (which is still awesome).

[DKT]

Yeah, I should also say that while we're not in the same league, neither PC or PP is hurting. Quite the opposite, and I'm optimistic about the future.

ETA: And thanks for splitting this off, Swamp!

[Heradel]

Each episode gets downloaded around 30,000 times, though there's a fair bit of variability and the downloads are off a little bit from the pre-break episodes.

As I was recently a listener I've always enjoyed the Hugo-nominee months, even if I didn't like every story. I don't expect to like every story I listen to on an EA 'cast, though I've liked far more than I hated, and some that I heard here for the first time remain among my very favorite stories. And some of those very favorites were hated by others that listened to them. For example, the first few comments on one of those went along the lines of: "Make it stop," "It was incredibly boring," "I did not like this story at all," and then "I was beginning to loose faith in Podcastle until I heard this. This is one of the best stories I've ever heard." (The last one wasn't me.) Stories will always hit people differently, and personally I quite liked Bride of Frankenstein when I read it.

And as someone now on the other side of the editorial divide, it really is an amazing amount of work, and DKT deserves loads of credit for taking on the Hugos while he was still working on Podcastle.

[Swamp]

I am also a fan of the Hugo's on EP.  It serves as a great tie to the speculative fiction community at large.  Also, as a writer, it is interesting to see what is considered good by the the general reading public. 

And it helps to know that these are not selected by an elite class of judges who are out of touch, but by dedicated fans.  To allude (as others have done) to the movie industry, it is somewhere between the Oscars (the out of touch elites) and the People's Choice Awards (anyone with web access or a cell phone can vote, good thing too or the Twilight stories would win every time).

Now I know that all of EP's audience are not writers, and I could search out the nominee's for myself, as several of them have been run on their own magazine's podcast, but it is nice to have it consolidated into one of my favorite podcasts.  I don't always like all of the stories, but in general they are of a good sort.

[FireTurtle]

I want to absolutely say thank you to everyone who puts time in on all the stories and mist especially the Hugos. I would say that hardly any of the stories on EP are ones I would chose to read as I am very much a genre/trope chicken and have troue moving outside those boundaries. Thats why you guys rock! You bring this stuff to me, I listen to it, enjoy it ( or not). But, in the end my literary world is broadened and all the more wonderful and weird and generally fantastic. So, basically, please keep bringing it because, well, I love it all.

[Sandikal]

I really like hearing the Hugo nominated short stories here on EP.  It made me more aware of the Hugo Awards in general.  This year, I've read all the novels nominated.  I read all of 2008's nominees as well.  (2009's list wasn't very interesting.)  I probably wouldn't have done that without the awareness created by EP. 

[KenK]

...it does sound pretty damn ungrateful.

And why should I be grateful to you? You volunteered your efforts but want nothing but flattery? Not from me. If you and all the other insiders are so sensitive you could just shut down the forum I suppose. Oh, never mind. I'll just quit posting anything but cheery praise for you and all you do! Have a really good day DKT. 

[Talia]

Now, now. Internet communication is difficult because its hard to convey nuances through text alone. I'm sure no insult was meant on either side. We're all friends here. Except for that guy over there. He's a jerk! *points*

[DKT]

...it does sound pretty damn ungrateful.

And why should I be grateful to you? You volunteered your efforts but want nothing but flattery? Not from me. If you and all the other insiders are so sensitive you could just shut down the forum I suppose. Oh, never mind. I'll just quit posting anything but cheery praise for you and all you do! Have a really good day DKT. 

Oh, KenK. I look forward to reading "cheery comments" from you one day in the future. I don't look forward to false praise/flattery.

I actually said I think negative reactions to stories are "totally cool." Odd that you take from that "Dave wants to shut the forum down."

In this particular case, not running the Hugos could have potentially meant an extra five weeks of radio silence from EP. At the time I volunteered to acquire the stories, both the return date and the host of EP was yet TBD. Of course, you probably didn't know that, and I doubt that would've made you happy. Regardless, I'm pretty certain that the majority of EP's listeners would have been disappointed if the interim were extended, and if the the Hugo stories had been passed over this year. (Not that I'm suggesting Mur wouldn't have done it - but I know for a fact it made things easier on her that it was all taken care of when she got here.)

Regarding next year - like I said, it's up to Mur. But everyone at EA does the best job they can to give you quality stories for free, three times a week or more. And even if you don't like a particular Hugo story (which, I think is fair: I don't think many people really like/love all the nominated stories, every year), they're by definition quality stories - because they were voted so by people who love speculative fiction. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that holds true for the rest of our audience, much less the majority of our audience.

ETA: Fixed quote boxes...

[Unblinking]

I actually said I think negative reactions to stories are "totally cool."

I can say without a doubt that negative reactions to stories are acceptable here, or I would've been fed to the wolves a long time ago! 

[Talia]

I actually said I think negative reactions to stories are "totally cool."

I can say without a doubt that negative reactions to stories are acceptable here, or I would've been fed to the wolves a long time ago! 

Come to think of it the wolves are looking pretty hungry these days. Would you mind going over and standing by their cage for a second, I just want to see something.

I swear I won't push you in                         (maybe)

[Swamp]

Yep, probably time to step in.

KenK, your original question about the value of producing the Hugo was valid.  Several people have also shared their opinions.  Yes, DKT took it a little personally since he was the person who took the initiative and effort to make the Hugo stories happen this year.  Now we are heading down the slippery slope of personal insults, which goes against the One Rule.

Regarding this:

...You volunteered your efforts but want nothing but flattery? Not from me. If you and all the other insiders are so sensitive you could just shut down the forum I suppose. Oh, never mind. I'll just quit posting anything but cheery praise for you and all you do!

Come on, you've been around long enough to know better than that.  You've heard the speil.  We don't expect only praise for the staff, stories, editing, reading, hosting, etc.  We do feel that without people volunteering to make these podcasts happen, you wouldn't have any content to complain about.  That deserves at least constructive criticsm.

Negative feedback is fine.  However, it seems that most often (not always) when people are making negative comments, it is accompanied by bad attitude and disrepect.  Again, I don't think your original post about the Hugo's falls into that category.  I thought your comments were fair.  I am just speaking generally.

So what do other people think about the Hugo stories?

[Scattercat]

I can say without a doubt that negative reactions to stories are acceptable here, or I would've been fed to the wolves a long time ago! 

You!?  Hell, I'd have been set on fire and had to come back as a murderous demonic entity. 

I heartily approve of the idea of running the Hugo nominees, even if this year's crop has been pretty much pure uncut crystal "meh" for me.  It's sort of like going to GenCon every year; even when there's no good LARPs and nothing interesting coming out RPG-wise and it's a core set release year for Magic, it's still good and fun and important to me to go.

[Listener]

crystal "meh"

[alllie]

Just wanted to say I love hearing the Hugo nominations. Sometimes I've read some of them because I take Analog and Asimov's. I love having the year's stories culled down to a best few. It so helps in avoiding the less great. And we have so many great narrators that it's a pleasure to listen to them. Like this week's Bridesicle. I've either read it or heard it before but I'm looking forward to Amy's reading anyway.