Author Topic: Religeous conservatives like sci fi and fantasy too  (Read 28188 times)

Swamp

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on: January 13, 2007, 01:01:08 AM
I have been listening to Escape Pod since Craphound and have found it wonderfully entertaining.  (I have also listened to all of the previous stories.)

I recently re-listened to Tk’tk’tk and the intro about Shelley the Republican.  I agree with Steve that this satire website mocks a group of people that sadly do exist.  I would argue that this group is small and that you could create a satire site that just as easily mocks a group of people on the other end of the spectrum.

But I do want to point out that being conservative or religious (I am both) does not mean someone cannot enjoy speculative fiction.  I love both sf and fantasy.  I avoid stories or books that openly mock religion because I don’t enjoy them, but I don’t try to have them banned or anything.

Like EscapePod.  Think of how many great stories I would miss if I stopped listening because a certain story “offended” me.  I listened to The Burning Bush and saw the clever humor of the writer, but didn’t really care for the story.  Steve does a great job of rating the stories (as well as providing accurate reasons for the ratings) so I could have avoided it altogether if I chose.  Another story, The Capo of Darkness, I stopped listening to just because I didn’t like the tone of the story.  No big deal.  Tune in the next week.  If I stopped listening I would have missed Shoulder of Giants or the next Union Dues.  This week’s story, Blood of Virgins, was a great story.  The title didn’t “scare me off” or anything.  If I didn’t like the story I would have stopped listening, but it was great.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that conservatives and religious people love sf and fantasy too. 

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SFEley

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Reply #1 on: January 13, 2007, 04:42:16 AM
Thanks, kmmr!  (If you don't mind my calling you that.)

I appreciate the perspective.  I do believe that very few people would like every story on Escape Pod, and it's not my goal.  What I'm hoping instead is to present enough of a diversity that everyone'll find something they find fun.  Glad to hear that part is working out for you.


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Russell Nash

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Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 01:37:13 PM
The way I see it. If I like every story, Steve isn't trying hard enough. Trying to make everyone happy is what network television does, and look at the crap they make.

Steve pushes me this way and that. I hold on and listen. Sometimes I say,"What was that *stuff*", but normally I say, "that was pretty good", and every so often, "*sticking* cool."




Bdoomed

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Reply #3 on: January 13, 2007, 05:29:18 PM
kmmr i love ya man! while i dont mind religious conservatives and the like, i dont believe in it m'self (im pretty much the exact opposite of you heh). I believe in god but dont feel i need religion.
Anyways, i dislike the people who are completely against anything that hints at anything they dont believe in (and those people who try to impose their beliefs on others).  The fact that you can accept stuff that you personally do not agree with is great.  If everyone could be like you the world would be so much nicer.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


RichGarner

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Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007, 07:40:39 PM
Here, here! I am also religious (I love studying the Bible with friends) and conservative (not interested in exposing my children to the television morals of today).

While I love a good debate on such issues, I would never look down on another or even criticize another for their beliefs. If I feel it is important for me to offer an opposing viewpoint, I do. But then whatever they chose to do is up to them. I'm still their friend.

I have many friends who are either agnostic or atheist and who practice activites that I find offensive and disgusting... but I don't judge them for it.

I always try to remember what a friend told me when I first became a Christian... "Hate the sin, but love the people!"

"...for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this to heart." -Ecclesiastes 7:2


PHaring

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Reply #5 on: April 12, 2007, 02:20:29 PM
The way I see it. If I like every story, Steve isn't trying hard enough. Trying to make everyone happy is what network television does, and look at the crap they make.

Steve pushes me this way and that. I hold on and listen. Sometimes I say,"What was that *stuff*", but normally I say, "that was pretty good", and every so often, "*sticking* cool."



I'm right there with you.  The addage "you can't please everyone" is very true when it comes to this kind of work.  I know that I'm not going to love every story ever run.  But sometimes, it's just my turn to be 'not pleased' this week.  And that's okay.  Next week's will be a better one for me and if it's not...oh well!



Holden

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Reply #6 on: May 04, 2007, 04:51:49 PM
Nice thread. I'm a Bible-believing, blood-bought Christian and I'm incredibly conservative, but that does not prevent me from enjoying short fiction. I enjoy EP and PP as well. I appreciate Steve's warnings before the stories. When I hear a warning that this week's story includes blasphemy, I know not to listen because I won't enjoy it.

I also appreciate how Steve stays out of religion and politics on his intros and outros. I would have a hard time enjoying a story - even a good story - if the intros and outros were blasphemous or politically charged.



bamugo

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Reply #7 on: June 14, 2007, 04:27:41 PM
I'm a Christ Follower, as well, and to be perfectly frank, feel that as a Christ Follower, I should be the very last person on Earth (or elsewhere) to be offended by ANYTHING.

If something is going to affect me negatively, I avoid it, but so far, nothing I've come across on EP or PP has fallen under that category.

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Leon Kensington

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Reply #8 on: July 06, 2007, 05:47:16 AM
I'm a conservative and find EP a great place to hear apposing views on issues through fiction.  What better way to learn than through a story!



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Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 06:31:28 PM
I'm a conservative and find EP a great place to hear apposing views on issues through fiction.  What better way to learn than through a story!

Well said.  Storytelling worked pretty well for Jesus, too, and I often find fiction has a way of making me think about what I believe more than some sermons do.


Russell Nash

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Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 10:06:23 PM
I'm a conservative and find EP a great place to hear apposing views on issues through fiction.  What better way to learn than through a story!

Well said.  Storytelling worked pretty well for Jesus, too, and I often find fiction has a way of making me think about what I believe more than some sermons do.

The only problem comes when some people don't know the difference between a metaphor and a description of an actual event.



Leon Kensington

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Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 11:21:15 PM
So?  Even if they have a diametrically apposed view as seen through the story (note: PP Story Full Moon) it can still be great to learn what the opposing side has to say.  You may not agree with it but, as the proverb goes "Know thy enemy".



Anarkey

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Reply #12 on: July 09, 2007, 11:52:54 PM
So?  Even if they have a diametrically apposed view as seen through the story (note: PP Story Full Moon) it can still be great to learn what the opposing side has to say.  You may not agree with it but, as the proverb goes "Know thy enemy".

I would never class a piece of fiction as an enemy.  Nor would I class a person who thinks differently than I do as an enemy, unless the difference were to arise between my idea about my right to live in the world and their direct opposition to that idea.

I would also be wary of drawing conclusions about an author's opinions from their story.  The text usually doesn't support such extrapolations, and they usually say much more about the person doing the extrapolating than the author.  Frex, there's a number of reviews that object to Scalzi's pro-war (or war glorifying) stance.  This position is deduced from an interpretation of the works.  However, when you read his blog, and what he says outside the story, the pro-war stuff just isn't there. 

Another frex, I listened to last year's Hugo nominee "A Clockwork Atom Bomb" very shortly after I had read Gourevitch's excellent book on the Rwandan genocide, and thus sensitized to issues of African politics, found it racist.  I don't think it probably is racist (and I don't think, as a white woman, I'm all that equipped to discern what is racist anyway), I just felt uncomfortably like it might be racist, in connection with some of the other things I was reading at the time.  My discomfort with the story's tone and its portrayal had to do with my feelings about Africa, not with the story itself (which was very fine in other ways).

There's a lot of stuff in a story, and usually if you can unpack in such a way as to directly correlate it to what an author thinks politically, then the story itself isn't much good.  Now if an author stands up and says "My story is a diatribe against meat-eating", then you can be pretty sure that's what they meant to put in as a message.  Course it might not be in there even then, because stories -- good ones anyway -- are multi-faceted and complex things.  You know, Farenheit 451 not so much about the evils of TV as Bradbury thinks it is.  There's a school of lit crit that actually disavows anything an author says about their work, judging them unqualified to comment.  I'm not that extreme, but there's what they wrote and what you read, and those are rarely -- if ever -- the same thing.

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Leon Kensington

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Reply #13 on: July 10, 2007, 04:08:50 AM
I didn't mean it quite as the peice was the enemy, I ment that the view was opposing to my belief.  It was a kind of metaphor.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #14 on: July 10, 2007, 01:21:52 PM
and I don't think, as a white woman, I'm all that equipped to discern what is racist anyway

Sure you are!  Don't discount your intellect because of your skin color.  (That would be racist :))

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Anarkey

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Reply #15 on: July 13, 2007, 03:09:31 AM
I didn't mean it quite as the peice was the enemy, I ment that the view was opposing to my belief.  It was a kind of metaphor.

Ah, metaphor.  That's alright then.  Perhaps I went overboard into lit crit analysis land, but it does bug me when people draw "obvious" conclusions about the politics of an author from their stories.

and I don't think, as a white woman, I'm all that equipped to discern what is racist anyway

Sure you are!  Don't discount your intellect because of your skin color.  (That would be racist :))

I'm the least likely person to discount my intellect, as I constantly have it discounted by others.  I do not believe being attuned to racism is a function of intelligence.  I've known some really smart racists, and I'm sure you have too.  Empathy could be a factor that allows one to see racism.  A strong socio-political background might help as well.  Still, the best likely way to recognize racism is to experience it, and although I have experienced plenty of prejudice, and something once that was very close to racism in a very unusual situation, I would by no means qualify myself as an authority, certainly insofar as judging something as abstract as a story racist.  I stand by my disclaimer.

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #16 on: July 13, 2007, 01:39:42 PM
Smart racists?  Hmm...  Can't say I've bumped into any of those.  Or, at least, their minds contain fenced-in areas where rationality is not permitted to enter.

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ClintMemo

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Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 03:54:42 PM
Smart racists?  Hmm...  Can't say I've bumped into any of those.  Or, at least, their minds contain fenced-in areas where rationality is not permitted to enter.

Not to pick on you, but I could easily substitute several groups into that phrase and be just as correct - from a point of view that opposes said group (and this is not in any way an endorsement of racism) and where I can define what that fenced in area is.

Examples:
"Smart socialists? Hmm...  Can't say I've bumped into any of those.  Or, at least, their minds contain fenced-in areas where rationality is not permitted to enter - like allowing people to maximize their own benefit from what they earn."

vs

"Smart capitalists? Hmm...  Can't say I've bumped into any of those.  Or, at least, their minds contain fenced-in areas where rationality is not permitted to enter - like guaranteeing a minimally decent standard of living for everyone."


I've known lots of people who seemed incredibly smart in some areas, but incredibly foolish/ignorant/just plain dumb in others.

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #18 on: July 13, 2007, 04:38:49 PM
Um, I think that both capitalism and socialism have a whole lot more intellectual depth than racism.  That's, like, apple and pineapples.

You can make logical arguments for both sides of many issues, but there isn't any logical argument that demonstrates that blue people are better than or deserve to rule over green people.  Racism doesn't hold an ounce of water unless reason and logical are wholly excluded.  It's indefensible.

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Anarkey

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Reply #19 on: July 13, 2007, 04:51:08 PM
Smart racists?  Hmm...  Can't say I've bumped into any of those.  Or, at least, their minds contain fenced-in areas where rationality is not permitted to enter.

Really?  You must lead a very sheltered life.  I don't even have to leave my family to find one: my grandmother (may she rest in peace, and excuse my speaking ill of the dead) was really smart and really racist. 

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Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #20 on: July 13, 2007, 05:03:52 PM
Smart racists?  Hmm...  Can't say I've bumped into any of those.  Or, at least, their minds contain fenced-in areas where rationality is not permitted to enter.

Really?  You must lead a very sheltered life.  I don't even have to leave my family to find one: my grandmother (may she rest in peace, and excuse my speaking ill of the dead) was really smart and really racist. 

My grandpa is something of a racist.  He's plenty smart otherwise, but when it comes to people of African decent, the logic shuts off.  He doesn't have any good reason to dislike individuals with dark skin, and he can't give you any, and if you press it, he gets mad and says you don't understand because you're too young and haven't been through what he's been through.  So yeah, he's smart, but, it that one area, he elects to not use the 'ol gray cells and instead opts for irrational prejudice.  I assume the same was true of your grandmother.

Let me amend my statement: Not all racists are unreasonable or ignorant in a general sense, but racism itself can only persist through unreason and ignorance.  Hence, anyone with racist opinions must necessarily have a piece of mental landscape with a sturdy fence around it, even if reason has free reign over the rest.

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ClintMemo

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Reply #21 on: July 13, 2007, 06:18:38 PM
Um, I think that both capitalism and socialism have a whole lot more intellectual depth than racism.  That's, like, apple and pineapples.

You can make logical arguments for both sides of many issues, but there isn't any logical argument that demonstrates that blue people are better than or deserve to rule over green people.  Racism doesn't hold an ounce of water unless reason and logical are wholly excluded.  It's indefensible.

As I said, it's from the other sides POV, which you don't share, so it's natural that you would see it as an apples to pineapples comparison.

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


ClintMemo

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Reply #22 on: July 13, 2007, 06:22:42 PM
Let me amend my statement: Not all racists are unreasonable or ignorant in a general sense, but racism itself can only persist through unreason and ignorance. 

I absolutely agree.
Hence, anyone with racist opinions must necessarily have a piece of mental landscape with a sturdy fence around it, even if reason has free reign over the rest.

Again, you could make the same statement about a whole host of issues.  In fact, I submit that EVERYONE has at least one piece of their mental landscape with sturdy fence around it to keep reason out.

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #23 on: July 13, 2007, 06:46:02 PM
Hence, anyone with racist opinions must necessarily have a piece of mental landscape with a sturdy fence around it, even if reason has free reign over the rest.

Again, you could make the same statement about a whole host of issues.  In fact, I submit that EVERYONE has at least one piece of their mental landscape with sturdy fence around it to keep reason out.

If so, I would say that everyone has a moral responsibility to tear the fences down.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #24 on: July 13, 2007, 07:02:38 PM
Hence, anyone with racist opinions must necessarily have a piece of mental landscape with a sturdy fence around it, even if reason has free reign over the rest.

Again, you could make the same statement about a whole host of issues.  In fact, I submit that EVERYONE has at least one piece of their mental landscape with sturdy fence around it to keep reason out.

If so, I would say that everyone has a moral responsibility to tear the fences down.

Does that include the fences around religious belief??