Author Topic: EP248: Spar  (Read 96985 times)

Talia

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Reply #50 on: July 11, 2010, 05:16:41 PM
To this day I've never encountered any sex scene in any book or story that had any serious purpose beyond titillation I could discern. I found if I read them anyway I could not see what those scenes added and was generally disgusted by having let those images inside my head.

I wonder if that is deliberate, so they can be censored, if necessary, without losing any of the plot.

I suspect its a matter of perception and/or what books were read as I, conversely, have read a number of sex scenes that definitely had purposes beyond titillation.



Yargling

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Reply #51 on: July 11, 2010, 06:31:01 PM
I'm glad this one had a warning. I've no interest in any of the territory this story is purported to explore. To this day I've never encountered any sex scene in any book or story that had any serious purpose beyond titillation I could discern.

I've read three, to my knowledge, though all 3 glide over the details for the most part - the 2 Dragon Ages books (a good read even if you aren't into the games) and Isaac Asimov's "Robots of the Dawn"

That said, the majority are that.



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Reply #52 on: July 11, 2010, 09:06:00 PM
It's interesting that some of you react so negatively to sexy scenes. In the novel I'm writing, I'm actually running into the problem of there not being enough sex. That is, it's a combination of two things: first, the romance between two of the main characters isn't really selling itself without more obvious displays of affection, and second, the setting is supposed to be this incredibly lush, striking, and vital place. Adding some sexier scenes - maybe not actual screwing, but something a little sexier than the stiff conversation I wrote in my first draft - would give the piece a lot of kick.

And while I'm defending sexiness, there are books where the sex is incredibly important. In the Kushiel's Legacy series by Jacqueline Karey, for example, every sex scene serves to develop a character, explicate the setting, or both. Hell, remember Clan of the Cave Bear and its sequals? I know you read that as a kid - probably scarred me for life. Anyway, while it was certainly a little over the top, most (ok, some) of the sex in those books served a purpose in describing the development of the characters' relationship and cavegirl's sexual and mystical awakening.

So yeah. Don't undersell the sex.

I don't mind a sex scene in a book or movie... my favorite novel Cyteen has a teen boy drugged and molested by an older, very powerful woman in a pivotal early scene that's critical to the story (it's also written rather non-explicitly, but the gist of what's going on isn't hard to figure out).  Jane Fancher's science fiction trilogy (Groundties, Uplink and Harmonies of the 'Net) also has several sex scenes running the gamut from hetero to (male) homo and BDSM; most of these were also integral to the story and not there for simple titillation or shock.

But "Spar", apart from the accident that set up the situation, was nothing but sex.  Feh.

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Reply #53 on: July 11, 2010, 09:26:53 PM
I don't mind a sex scene in a book or movie... my favorite novel Cyteen has a teen boy drugged and molested by an older, very powerful woman in a pivotal early scene that's critical to the story (it's also written rather non-explicitly, but the gist of what's going on isn't hard to figure out).  Jane Fancher's science fiction trilogy (Groundties, Uplink and Harmonies of the 'Net) also has several sex scenes running the gamut from hetero to (male) homo and BDSM; most of these were also integral to the story and not there for simple titillation or shock.

But "Spar", apart from the accident that set up the situation, was nothing but sex.  Feh.

I'm not sure I agree. Interspersed with the sex was a great deal about the POV character's life before the accident, her relationship with her husband, and her struggle to stay sane and maintain a sense of self in the madness of the lifeboat. The story might have had its flaws, but I don't really see it as "nothing but sex."

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Talia

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Reply #54 on: July 12, 2010, 12:15:50 AM
Yeah I also have to disagree. Sex was definitely  not the only thing going on in this story, though the other stuff was subtle.



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Reply #55 on: July 12, 2010, 01:21:23 AM
More to the point, the story is in a lot of ways ABOUT sex and what sex means (or doesn't mean).  It would be hard to write a story about the meaning of war without including some gunshots in it, ne?



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Reply #56 on: July 12, 2010, 03:53:48 AM
For me the story wasn't at all about the sex. It was about the utter desolation of the protagonists plight. In her situation it seemed that sex, and self mutilation were the only escape from total sensory deprivation. The sex was the only way she could interact with her rescuer.

For her sex was distraction, entertainment, control, communication and even something familiar in such an alien environment. I did not get the sense that it was in any way satisfying.

Reading/hearing it in such graphic detail was very unsettling, but was a powerful way to get me to feel the desparation of her situation. I could understand her hopelessness, resignation, fear and loss, and indeed her fight to retain some semblence of herself.

There was nothing nice about this story and even the ending was not filled with hope, rather it was just the end of misery, not a happy rescue.

I love a happy ending, which is why I loved Bridesicle so much. Spar was too disturbing for my taste, but I think that is part of what makes it such a powerful piece of writing. For this particular story it was the only way it could be told.

Should the story have been told at all? That  is a different question, and one that we usually leave up to authors.



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Reply #57 on: July 12, 2010, 04:02:26 AM
I purposefully didn't read any of the other comments on this one because I wanted to say that I just didn't like this one. It was an interesting little vignette, but...It just didn't have anything for me to latch onto.

Your mileage may very well vary, of course, but: meh.

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Reply #58 on: July 12, 2010, 07:07:45 AM
Very enjoyable and thought-provoking, but more of a scene than a story.  I didn't get any character development.  The intensity remains they same throughout.  Her challenge is sort of to stay sane, but she doesn't seem to be actively trying to do so.  She does retain her humanity, but it's not because of anything she did deliberately.  She said she tried the airlock, so we know that if she had a choice she would not have survived.   I think all these were intentional on the author's part, and helped paint the mood.  But they made the story a little less engaging. 

I think I would have enjoyed a story about this character after the rescue, flashing back to her experience in the lifeboat. 



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Reply #59 on: July 12, 2010, 07:18:11 AM

So I would counter while our literature does have a history of sexual reference, the more explicit and graphic literary forays have tended to be sources of long standing public disdain regardless of their other literary merits. The whole notion that art needs to shock the sensibilities or challenge tradition, or the common cultural mores never had much traction with me. I'll admit there are limited occasions when use of the arts to challenge some conventions are warranted but that would be more when dealing with some entrenched injustice like Jim Crow laws, or filthy meat packing plants, hence works like To Kill A Mocking Bird, Invisible Man, the Jungle, or the children's books Beautiful Joe.


Seems to me that "long standing public disdain" = "Shock the sensibilities or challenge tradition, or the common cultural mores"

Great writing challenges us to think, pushes the envelope, opens up society and says, "look at this, is this right?". From a story it launches debate. To Kill a Mockingbird, 1984, Lady Chatterley's Lover, Brave New World, much of Shakespeare, the Bible (to mention the ones already mentioned), and countless other of the world's great stories. This is what I really love about great writing, the lingering possibilities of creating social change.

Otherwise it is just entertainment. Not a bad end in itself, and l love a great narrative for its own sake, but there is power in those life changing pieces, where the telling of the story pushes at the edges and confronts something about or within us.

Do I think Spar is one of these? Not really, I think its explicitness is overwhelming, but I think it is a story of despair powerfully told. It has, however, pushed and confronted and created a rollicking debate.



SanguineV

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Reply #60 on: July 12, 2010, 10:10:24 AM
For me this story had a wonderful collection of pieces that somehow never came together properly. The scene was open to many possibilities. The loss of self, isolation, cabin fever, loneliness and state of mind was definitely thought provoking. The sex/rape, particularly as the definition of the relationship but never having communication was both clever and posed a question. The writing was artfully done, allowing the impact of the scene through clever language instead of blunt words.

... Yet they never all came together.

I agree with those who felt the scene was too static. The endless sameness of it was something that either needed to be better built upon by other aspects, or just cut down to one scene. As a flash piece this could have been done very nicely. But the lack of development over time of the character never shone through, the result was the piece felt like one scene, not a real story.

Which leads into the portrayal of state of mind. The scenario was one that could have gone many ways, insanity, communication, acceptance, introspection to name some off hand. Early on I was curious to see where the character went, what does she turn into or discover when left only with herself and an alien she cannot really communicate with? Ultimately this fell very flat for me in delivery, the questions were never really posed significantly and the story seemed to be that she survived and chose to keep doing so. This was perhaps where the story most fell apart for me, no real "story", just a moment (albeit a very long one) of existing and not dying.[1]

The sex/rape I thought was quite well done in how it was presented. The interaction was simply all they could do and the lack of communication kept it from being erotic (although I am sure some people found it so). I think it added to the horror, closeness and isolation of the character, but occasionally it felt over-emphasised: yes they are constantly intimate, but it didn't always add to the story.

The writing was very nicely done. The reuse of words and phrases really drove home the right points and the language was well chosen. I never found this a distractor from the work which is good (and somewhat rare).

Overall I found Spar one of the better Hugo nominees, although I preferred Bridesicle. Definitely more interesting and memorable than the other 3.

One final minor irk, I found myself working hard to suspend belief enough for this one. The premise of the crash being so highly unlikely is fine. What broke it for me what that the alien and human are so perfectly matched they can share atmosphere/pressure/bodily fluids/injuries/environment for so long without any harmful effects... That seemed extremely unlikely. Add in the waste disposal system that apparently collects faeces (and urine, I can't recall), but not other discharges from the genitals? (How does it collect these when the alien is inside those orifices that discharge it anyway, wouldn't the alien get in the way?) Also, why build an escapepod for your spaceship that can adapt for the nutrition of any known alien, yet doesn't support even primitive communication? If you can determine all the chemicals to insert/remove from the environment of any alien then why not also have a minimal translator? (Mobile phones can do this now... So either the computer is powerful enough to work things out on the fly, so should be able to do some communication, or it isn't but has a catalogue of aliens... but not their language.)

1 - I can't help but consider that this was a mixture of lack of cerebral development and vague discussion of the physical. Seeing as her mental state is degenerate it can be helpful to have the mental/emotional fall apart. However, the physical was similarly disjoint, as a result the sense of time and change in physical behaviour didn't line up. Only the brief discussion of how she tried to track time and failed seemed to make any attempt to manage this. Ultimately I think the story would be stronger with a better sense of time passing, not necessarily in any measurable way for the character, but for the audience to perceive the transitions in state of mind.



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Reply #61 on: July 12, 2010, 04:23:29 PM
The topic of Sex in SF and Literature has been moved to the SF Discussion area of the boards.

It's an interesting discussion, and we appreciate everyone being so polite during it, so have it over there. We're going to try and maintain focus on the story in this thread, though.

Carry on!


Listener

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Reply #62 on: July 12, 2010, 04:43:52 PM
Yeah I also have to disagree. Sex was definitely  not the only thing going on in this story, though the other stuff was subtle.

It's like writing a story about a drive from Miami to New York: the story is about driving, but other stuff happens -- listening to music, eating, trying not to fall asleep on the road...

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Talia

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Reply #63 on: July 12, 2010, 04:49:36 PM
Yeah I also have to disagree. Sex was definitely  not the only thing going on in this story, though the other stuff was subtle.

It's like writing a story about a drive from Miami to New York: the story is about driving, but other stuff happens -- listening to music, eating, trying not to fall asleep on the road...

I disagree. Its like writing a story about driving from Miami to New York in the wake of severe personal trauma, half numbed. Yes, the story is on the surface about driving, but its what you went through that's the meat of it.



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Reply #64 on: July 12, 2010, 04:58:59 PM
Yeah I also have to disagree. Sex was definitely  not the only thing going on in this story, though the other stuff was subtle.

It's like writing a story about a drive from Miami to New York: the story is about driving, but other stuff happens -- listening to music, eating, trying not to fall asleep on the road...

I disagree. Its like writing a story about driving from Miami to New York in the wake of severe personal trauma, half numbed. Yes, the story is on the surface about driving, but its what you went through that's the meat of it.

Okay, I'll give you that.

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Reply #65 on: July 13, 2010, 01:41:05 AM
I found this to be an interesting almost feminist tale (feminist in that the woman is a victim and survives) but oddly undercooked.  I understand how the repetitive nature of the scene and the language was meant to draw you into her situation.  While it works as an audiobook this would rapidly loose the interest of many readers.  The problem with the tactic the author took was that even though the character was trapped we as readers could end the ordeal at any time by simply putting the story down.  That seriously blunts the effectiveness of her style.  It's a shame because it began with an interesting idea.

Those ideas, about victim-hood, loss of self, and sex as communication are actually very strong.  Some people and relationships are based solely on sex.  The people in those relationships take out their love, aggression, sadness and fear in the act.  It's also a well established notion in sci-fi that many creatures communicate through physical touch or other means and it's a great twist on that old trope.  Sadly the execution wasn't up to the ideas.

(To see and interesting twist on the idea of being in someone's head during a rape I strongly suggest the film Strange Days by Katherine Biggelow and James Cameron)



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Reply #66 on: July 13, 2010, 02:40:42 AM
I started to listen to "Spar" on the Clarkesworld podcast, but stopped as it obviously wasn't for me.  I am glad EP obtained it to complete the line up of Hugo nominees.  I also appreciate, as always, the rating of the stories at EP, as well as the audio warnings.  Those who want to listen can, but there is always the choice of others, like me, to hold off and come back next week.

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Listener

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Reply #67 on: July 13, 2010, 04:55:33 PM
(feminist in that the woman is a victim and survives)

That doesn't sound feminist. It sounds like a Lifetime movie -- if the story had had a couple hundred more words maybe she'd have grabbed a security guard's gun and vaporized the alien, and then it really WOULD be.

According to Wikipedia:

Quote
Feminism refers to political, cultural, and economic movements aimed at establishing greater rights, legal protection for women, and/or women's liberation. Feminism includes some of the sociological theories and philosophies concerned with issues of gender difference. It is also a movement that campaigns for women's rights and interests. Nancy Cott defines feminism as the belief in the importance of gender equality, invalidating the idea of gender hierarchy as a socially constructed concept.

Not to be a nit-picker, but I've had it drummed into my head what a feminist is and how UNBELIEVABLY AWESOMELY AMAZING IN EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE WAY* they are by working for a college English department** for three years.***

* Hyperbole

** Apparently, at least at the university I attended, "feminist" meant "believes women are superior", not "believes women deserve the same rights as men".

*** In all seriousness, I respect feminists, and I look forward to a world where we won't need them because we'll realize that, at bottom, we're all the same: we're all humans.

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Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #68 on: July 14, 2010, 12:57:14 AM
Apparently, at least at the university I attended, "feminist" meant "believes women are superior", not "believes women deserve the same rights as men".

That's femdom, not feminism. ;)

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Reply #69 on: July 14, 2010, 02:42:49 AM
Whatever point the author was trying to make just didn't come through to my dim level of consciousness. And so, I, for one, can hardly wait until the Hugo voters make their picks already and for EP to move to something else. We've picked this carcass clean to the bones. I've read Spar once and listened to it twice, so please nobody tell me I didn't try or give it a chance to sink in. And, if truth be told, if I had access to a workable "brain eraser" I would use it on my brain cells that are devoted to the remembrance of Spar. And that's a damned fact.  ;)
So until that happy day when such a device is available I'll just have to rely on copious amounts of Merlot, vodka, and gin instead. Cheers!  ;D




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Reply #70 on: July 14, 2010, 12:02:16 PM
I listened to it on a long commute.  Definitely dreary enough to be a Nebula winner, although the Hugo crowd might like lighter fare.

I like and dislike it not for sex or graphic details, but for the same reasons I liked and disliked Kafka's Metamorphosis, to which it is a mirror twin:  "...to find HER PARTNER transformed into a giant slimy shapeless alien."  A rather jarring riff on the "you always marry a stranger (or even alien)" theme, this one taken to rather extreme ends.  The alien who almost never appeared to learn a damn thing from any attempts at communication is, I am sure, a familiar image to many a person in a committed relationship.

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Reply #71 on: July 14, 2010, 04:14:34 PM
I've very curious to see how people react to "Spar," which is a very different kind of space opera.

It's in space, yeah, but "space opera" to me involves an epic story with a large cast of characters... not just two beings fucking in a can.

Well, it's a pretty epic fuck.


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Reply #72 on: July 14, 2010, 04:34:33 PM
This could have been an amazing story if it had known where to quit.  The setup has a lot going for it with the questions of what is rape, what is sex, what makes us human, what is rescue, what should be taboo, etc..  This was all conveyed very well in the first few minutes.  And then it kept going on, and on.  The dark material was a bit shocking at first, then thought-provoking, but then it kept on going on and on and on, saying the same things over and over.

As flash fiction, this could've been really amazing, to show it's premise, get through the ideas, and then be gone before I'd recovered from the initial shock, leaving the consequences to linger.  But as a full length story this was all diluted and repeated to the point that I just didn't care for it anymore.  I'm a firm believer that every story should only be as long as it has to be and this one was way longer than that and loses major points for it.  Add into that the higher expectations I always have for a Hugo nom and this did not meet them.

For me Bridesicle is an easy favorite of the five.



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Reply #73 on: July 14, 2010, 06:28:17 PM
Interrsting story.  I think I've been on this date.



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Reply #74 on: July 14, 2010, 07:02:39 PM
Interrsting story.  I think I've been on this date.
I bet he drinks Carling Black Label..

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