Author Topic: EP248: Spar  (Read 96963 times)

Talia

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Reply #75 on: July 14, 2010, 07:07:28 PM
Interrsting story.  I think I've been on this date.

Condolences, I think.



Thunderscreech

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Reply #76 on: July 14, 2010, 07:15:54 PM
Interrsting story.  I think I've been on this date.

Condolences, I think.
Well...



Scattercat

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Reply #77 on: July 14, 2010, 07:24:25 PM
  And then it kept going on, and on.  The dark material was a bit shocking at first, then thought-provoking, but then it kept on going on and on and on, saying the same things over and over.

I think audio isn't kind to the story, just by virtue of stretching the experience from 7-10 minutes out to 20. 



Unblinking

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Reply #78 on: July 15, 2010, 05:54:59 PM
  And then it kept going on, and on.  The dark material was a bit shocking at first, then thought-provoking, but then it kept on going on and on and on, saying the same things over and over.

I think audio isn't kind to the story, just by virtue of stretching the experience from 7-10 minutes out to 20. 

You might be right about this.  I suspect that I'd still think it was longer then it needed to be.  But in text, I probably would've also skimmed the last half and maybe would've been left with a better overall impression.



Thats What She Said

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Reply #79 on: July 16, 2010, 12:10:15 AM
Episode summary for busy people: A woman fucks a shoggoth.



ElectricPaladin

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Reply #80 on: July 16, 2010, 12:16:26 AM
Episode summary for busy people: A woman fucks a shoggoth.

That's what she said.

Also, did you actually listen to the episode, or just read the commentary?

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Thats What She Said

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Reply #81 on: July 16, 2010, 01:07:43 AM
Also, did you actually listen to the episode, or just read the commentary?

I did listen to it. The reading was pretty good (that's the only positive thing I can saw about the story), but I just didn't see the point of the story. Nothing happened. A woman fucks a shoggoth for 99% of the story and then at the very end something happens but we don't really know what because the author just seemed to give up at that point. The whole thing just seemed pointless. There must have been a more deserving story out there that could have been nominated.



Talia

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Reply #82 on: July 16, 2010, 02:20:04 AM
Also, did you actually listen to the episode, or just read the commentary?

I did listen to it. The reading was pretty good (that's the only positive thing I can saw about the story), but I just didn't see the point of the story. Nothing happened. A woman fucks a shoggoth for 99% of the story and then at the very end something happens but we don't really know what because the author just seemed to give up at that point. The whole thing just seemed pointless. There must have been a more deserving story out there that could have been nominated.

a few people have agreed with you and some of us have disagreed and stated our cases - if you havent yet, try reading through the feedback here. Its an interesting mix.

The story generated a whole bunch of discussion. :)



tamahome

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Reply #83 on: July 16, 2010, 03:57:24 PM
Samuel R. Delany called me up and told me he loved it.  (j/k)



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Reply #84 on: July 16, 2010, 07:10:54 PM
Samuel R. Delaney? The only thing I've read in the sf genre that was creepier than Spar was his work Dahlgren.   :D



alllie

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Reply #85 on: July 17, 2010, 02:38:10 PM
Samuel R. Delaney? The only thing I've read in the sf genre that was creepier than Spar was his work Dahlgren.   :D

Hey, I loved Dahlgren. Though it was creepy. But that made it better, that I could never figure out what was happening.

Spar, well, it was just alien porn.



Divarancher

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Reply #86 on: July 17, 2010, 05:48:33 PM
Totally agree.  How did this even get onto Escape Pod?  This "short story" is an insult to the wonderful creativity and talent this podcast is known for, to listeners and previous artists.   Come on Escape Artists, not all is art.  :-\  :'( ???



KenK

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Reply #87 on: July 17, 2010, 07:07:26 PM
@Divarancher
Spar is a Hugo nominee and by EP tradition (which many of us are grateful for) are presented here.



Dem

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Reply #88 on: July 17, 2010, 07:34:47 PM
Totally agree.  How did this even get onto Escape Pod?  This "short story" is an insult to the wonderful creativity and talent this podcast is known for, to listeners and previous artists.   Come on Escape Artists, not all is art.  :-\  :'( ???
I'd say that's your opinion and not a universal truth. There's been quite a debate here about this story with detailed critiques that both pull it apart and dissect its attributes. They are all pretty vehement but they generally amount to a bit more than either an 'insult' or unqualified praise.

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Divarancher

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Reply #89 on: July 17, 2010, 08:43:00 PM
Thanks for the reminder that Spar is a Hugo nominee, that is what I meant when I stated that not all is art. In many situations we are similar to wilderbeasts, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why.  If we thought for ourselves without the bias of others, where would this story stand?   :o  Of course this is only my opinion, that is what forums are about, stating ones opinion.  If we wanted universal truths, we would not be on this site, but reading something much less entertaining. ;)



Divarancher

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Reply #90 on: July 17, 2010, 08:54:09 PM
Oh, one more thing.  I am in awe of all the great authors and talent on Escape Pod, thanks for sharing your wonderful minds with us. Even though I did not care for this story, and was actually offended by it, I  appreciate the work, talent,  and that as authors you share your gift with us.  Those of us who are only capable of writing shopping lists, dream about capturing your imagination...Thanks






Dem

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Reply #91 on: July 17, 2010, 09:04:49 PM
Thanks for the reminder that Spar is a Hugo nominee, that is what I meant when I stated that not all is art. In many situations we are similar to wilderbeasts, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why.  If we thought for ourselves without the bias of others, where would this story stand?   :o  Of course this is only my opinion, that is what forums are about, stating ones opinion.  If we wanted universal truths, we would not be on this site, but reading something much less entertaining. ;)
I don't know if you've scrolled back through this thread and others but if you do, I think you'll see that no one is stampeding anywhere. The debate has been quite heated and some people are not giving up their views, come Hull, Hell or Halifax, and quite right too! Good though that you're finding the site entertaining, I certainly do and, as a new-ish writer, I really value the going-over the stories here get.  :)

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


Scattercat

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Reply #92 on: July 17, 2010, 09:55:37 PM
Thanks for the reminder that Spar is a Hugo nominee, that is what I meant when I stated that not all is art.

I read the story in a vacuum and liked it for its own merits.  I'd say more, but I'm having a hard time making it sound polite.



Listener

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Reply #93 on: July 18, 2010, 02:42:19 AM
In many situations we are similar to wilderbeasts, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why. 

Do you work in TV news? Because you just described exactly how it works with one lovely metaphor.

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CryptoMe

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Reply #94 on: July 18, 2010, 07:51:58 AM
I did not like this one. I felt the sex was gratuitous and didn't add anything meaningful to the story. Here's why I say that:
  • The important themes of alienation, grief, abandonment, and even communication could all have been addressed without that much sex.
  • The woman's motivation in regards to the sex is never well addressed. She herself initiates it at times and she does get some gratification from it (I don't think she would be releasing secretions otherwise), but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. In this respect, it's very much like porn.
  • I find it completely unbelievable that the characters (either of them) couldn't come up with something else to do with their time.
  • If sex was the alien's attempt at communications, then what kind of moron is it that keeps trying something that is obviously not working. Even the emotionally battered female character eventually stopped trying to talk to the alien because it wasn't working.

I could go on, and on, but (unlike the author of this story) I won't. This was the literary analog of watching someone masturbate. The author may have enjoyed themselves, but I did not.



knigget

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Reply #95 on: July 18, 2010, 12:47:37 PM
Reminds me of the fight that broke out over Stravinsky's Rite of Spring at the Paris Opera. 

Saw INCEPTION yesterday, and this story would not feel out of place in the movie.  Or at least a remake or a sequel.  It has that relentless, claustrophobic, interminable quality of a really bad dream.  Not to mention nudity and flying.


http://www.apoGrypha.blogspot.com

What would have been written. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Dem

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Reply #96 on: July 18, 2010, 01:07:38 PM
In many situations we are similar to wildebeests, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why. 

Do you work in TV news?
Or TV Gnus, even. ;D

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Scattercat

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Reply #97 on: July 18, 2010, 04:30:58 PM
Quote
The important themes of alienation, grief, abandonment, and even communication could all have been addressed without that much sex.

Another important theme was sex itself.  That could not have been addressed without sex.

Quote
and she does get some gratification from it (I don't think she would be releasing secretions otherwise),

That is not how the female body works.  It does not work like the male body.  The vagina actually lubricates itself pretty much at the drop of a hat, even during horrific rapes etc.  Best theory right now is that this is a defensive measure, evolved to prevent internal injuries in the event of sexual assault (most animals don't do a lot of asking permission first.)

Quote
The woman's motivation is never addressed... but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. In this respect, it's very much like porn.

Motivations can be complicated.  She can both enjoy it and loathe it.  Again, it speaks a lot to abusive relationships, where there are complex and conflicting desires at work.  Porn is sex without any motivations at all.

Quote
I find it completely unbelievable that the characters (either of them) couldn't come up with something else to do with their time.

The alien WOULDN'T STOP, so the woman didn't have a lot of choice. 

Quote
If sex was the alien's attempt at communications, then what kind of moron is it

The whole point was that we and the protagonist couldn't figure out what the alien wanted.  Because it was alien.  It might have been trying to communicate.  Maybe it thought it was hearing something back, like someone chatting to an AI chatbot, on whatever frequency or method it used.  Maybe it was just a mindless creature trying to attack her.  Maybe it was insane.  It was Other, and they were together; again, a strong thematic connection to an abusive relationship.

Quote
The author may have enjoyed themselves, but I did not.

I am getting REALLY tired of people insinuating that Kij Johnson wrote this to get her jollies off.  I linked to an interview with her about the piece and its genesis.  You can read it for yourself.



Dem

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Reply #98 on: July 18, 2010, 04:54:34 PM
Quote
The important themes of alienation, grief, abandonment, and even communication could all have been addressed without that much sex.

Another important theme was sex itself.  That could not have been addressed without sex.

Quote
and she does get some gratification from it (I don't think she would be releasing secretions otherwise),

That is not how the female body works.  It does not work like the male body.  The vagina actually lubricates itself pretty much at the drop of a hat, even during horrific rapes etc.  Best theory right now is that this is a defensive measure, evolved to prevent internal injuries in the event of sexual assault (most animals don't do a lot of asking permission first.)

Quote
The woman's motivation is never addressed... but for the life of me, I can't figure out why. In this respect, it's very much like porn.

Motivations can be complicated.  She can both enjoy it and loathe it.  Again, it speaks a lot to abusive relationships, where there are complex and conflicting desires at work.  Porn is sex without any motivations at all.

Quote
I find it completely unbelievable that the characters (either of them) couldn't come up with something else to do with their time.

The alien WOULDN'T STOP, so the woman didn't have a lot of choice. 

Quote
If sex was the alien's attempt at communications, then what kind of moron is it

The whole point was that we and the protagonist couldn't figure out what the alien wanted.  Because it was alien.  It might have been trying to communicate.  Maybe it thought it was hearing something back, like someone chatting to an AI chatbot, on whatever frequency or method it used.  Maybe it was just a mindless creature trying to attack her.  Maybe it was insane.  It was Other, and they were together; again, a strong thematic connection to an abusive relationship.

Quote
The author may have enjoyed themselves, but I did not.

I am getting REALLY tired of people insinuating that Kij Johnson wrote this to get her jollies off.  I linked to an interview with her about the piece and its genesis.  You can read it for yourself.
I agree with the Cat on every point. Many women are horrified by their physical reaction to sexual assault and often blame themselves for years afterwards, thinking that at some level, they must have been complicit. As to the repetitive nature of the encounters, abusive relationships do just that, becoming normalised and horrifically routine to the victim. The abuser often sells it as love and the victim can come to believe that too. Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship. The more I think about this story, the more it seems to be describing abuse and the more I wonder if the two entities are not co-victims with no way out of their helplessness.

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Dem

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Reply #99 on: July 18, 2010, 05:41:12 PM
Quote

I am getting REALLY tired of people insinuating that Kij Johnson wrote this to get her jollies off.  I linked to an interview with her about the piece and its genesis.  You can read it for yourself.
Where link? Sorry, wasn't paying attention :-\

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.