Author Topic: EP248: Spar  (Read 96974 times)

Scattercat

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Reply #100 on: July 18, 2010, 06:33:09 PM



MCWagner

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Reply #101 on: July 18, 2010, 06:34:59 PM
(I know this is reaching back a bit, but I only just saw this...)

It grosses me out every time and not in a good way.

I can't think of the good way to be grossed out...
Check out the art/genres of Grindcore, Gorecore, splatterpunk, splat-stick, and the Japanese "ero-goro."  (...actually, you should probably avoid that last one.)  The "gross out" is a thrill similar to the "fright" from horror flicks/stories.  Perhaps more rarified, but one can develop a taste for being "grossed out" in the same way one can seek out the thrill of being frightened.  Both are counter-intuitive for one to enjoy, but humans are emotionally f***ed-up creatures.



Dem

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Reply #102 on: July 18, 2010, 06:44:32 PM

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


knigget

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Reply #103 on: July 18, 2010, 06:46:25 PM
I agree with the Cat on every point. Many women are horrified by their physical reaction to sexual assault and often blame themselves for years afterwards, thinking that at some level, they must have been complicit. As to the repetitive nature of the encounters, abusive relationships do just that, becoming normalised and horrifically routine to the victim. The abuser often sells it as love and the victim can come to believe that too. Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship. The more I think about this story, the more it seems to be describing abuse and the more I wonder if the two entities are not co-victims with no way out of their helplessness.

I don't think the author is quite so simplistic in her outlook.  "Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship." -- yes; and much of the time it's because the abuser (who may actually be female) is unaware of the precise location of the fine line between persuasion and coercion.  Her alien isn't an abuser or the victim; it's -- the alien.  Is the MC victimized by the alien,  or by the alienation?  

http://www.apoGrypha.blogspot.com

What would have been written. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #104 on: July 18, 2010, 07:07:55 PM
Thanks for the link, Scattercat. I enjoyed that.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


Dem

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Reply #105 on: July 18, 2010, 07:21:20 PM
I agree with the Cat on every point. Many women are horrified by their physical reaction to sexual assault and often blame themselves for years afterwards, thinking that at some level, they must have been complicit. As to the repetitive nature of the encounters, abusive relationships do just that, becoming normalised and horrifically routine to the victim. The abuser often sells it as love and the victim can come to believe that too. Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship. The more I think about this story, the more it seems to be describing abuse and the more I wonder if the two entities are not co-victims with no way out of their helplessness.

I don't think the author is quite so simplistic in her outlook.  "Sexual abuse is shocking to all but the abuser, especially when it is repeated endlessly in a closed relationship." -- yes; and much of the time it's because the abuser (who may actually be female) is unaware of the precise location of the fine line between persuasion and coercion.  Her alien isn't an abuser or the victim; it's -- the alien.  Is the MC victimized by the alien,  or by the alienation?  
I don't think we know if either is an abuser or a victim, just that they're both caught up in an endless locked-in cycle of helpless interaction. Just because the alien is, well, alien, doesn't mean it can't be one or the other. For all I know, there's another group of hypothetical and tenticularised readers seeing this through its own lens and coming to a different conclusion. We don't even know if the bipedal individual at the end is human. Perhaps its species captured both of them and then observed their 'ins and outs' wondering what the f*** was going on!

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #106 on: July 18, 2010, 08:52:22 PM
Perhaps its species captured both of them and then observed their 'ins and outs' wondering what the f*** was going on!

I thought 'the f***' was what was going on! ;)

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


Dem

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Reply #107 on: July 18, 2010, 09:09:12 PM
Perhaps its species captured both of them and then observed their 'ins and outs' wondering what the f*** was going on!

I thought 'the f***' was what was going on! ;)
;D

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


knigget

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Reply #108 on: July 18, 2010, 09:17:56 PM
Interview with Kij Johnson about "Spar."

Just read that.  Summed up in one brilliant line:

And a story about sex with an alien because it's that or die of boredom.


http://www.apoGrypha.blogspot.com

What would have been written. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Thunderscreech

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Reply #109 on: July 18, 2010, 11:16:57 PM
CryptoMe: With respect, the comment about her being aroused because the character lubricated is ignorant.  It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'.  Adding the bit about the author using the story as a sexual release is repugnant, I hope I misunderstood your insinuation.



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Reply #110 on: July 19, 2010, 01:44:08 PM
It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'. 

Wow, somebody actually said that? 



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #111 on: July 19, 2010, 01:54:27 PM
It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'. 

Wow, somebody actually said that? 

There are a lot of seriously ignorant uninformed politicians out there.  The worst ones are the ones who make a 'virtue' out of it ("Don't need none o' that there book learning...").

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


Thunderscreech

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Reply #112 on: July 19, 2010, 02:13:37 PM
It is an autonomic process, your statement reminds me of a senator who speculated that pregnancy from rape was impossible because 'the juices just don't flow'. 

Wow, somebody actually said that? 
Henry Aldridge: ""The facts show that people who are raped, who are truly raped—the juices don’t flow, the body functions don’t work, and they don’t get pregnant.""

CryptoMe's comment suggests to me that this type of thinking still exists.  Embarrassing.



stePH

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Reply #113 on: July 19, 2010, 02:14:55 PM
In many situations we are similar to wildebeests, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why. 

Do you work in TV news?
Or TV Gnus, even. ;D

I'm sure we've all herd that joke before.

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Dem

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Reply #114 on: July 19, 2010, 06:24:16 PM
In many situations we are similar to wildebeests, one starts to run and we all stampede behind without knowing why. 

Do you work in TV news?
Or TV Gnus, even. ;D

I'm sure we've all herd that joke before.
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


Kaa

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Reply #115 on: July 19, 2010, 06:26:12 PM
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

You might even say thundering 'oof-beats. That you herd. On the gnus.

I invent imaginary people and make them have conversations in my head. I also write.

About writing || About Atheism and Skepticism (mostly) || About Everything Else


Dem

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Reply #116 on: July 19, 2010, 07:12:05 PM
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

You might even say thundering 'oof-beats. That you herd. On the gnus.
UNCLE!!! ;D

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


Kaa

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Reply #117 on: July 19, 2010, 07:14:59 PM
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

You might even say thundering 'oof-beats. That you herd. On the gnus.
UNCLE!!! ;D

You sure you don't mean "ungulate"?

I invent imaginary people and make them have conversations in my head. I also write.

About writing || About Atheism and Skepticism (mostly) || About Everything Else


CleverScreenName

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Reply #118 on: July 19, 2010, 07:25:52 PM
This was the first Escape Pod story I listened to. A rather horrifying introduction, really, but also kind of reassuring: I'll never have to worry about this podcast pulling its punches or sacrificing artistic integrity to avoid offending people. I consider this a good thing, even if some of the individual stories might not be up my alley.



Dem

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Reply #119 on: July 19, 2010, 07:34:35 PM
Ooooooof. Multitudinous oooooofs, in fact... :-*

You might even say thundering 'oof-beats. That you herd. On the gnus.
UNCLE!!! ;D

You sure you don't mean "ungulate"?
I'd like to think I've unguligraduated above that sort of thing!

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


Talia

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Reply #120 on: July 19, 2010, 07:47:55 PM
This was the first Escape Pod story I listened to. A rather horrifying introduction, really, but also kind of reassuring: I'll never have to worry about this podcast pulling its punches or sacrificing artistic integrity to avoid offending people. I consider this a good thing, even if some of the individual stories might not be up my alley.

Haha, welcome. You picked a heck of an episode to start with! :p



Dem

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Reply #121 on: July 19, 2010, 07:52:46 PM
This was the first Escape Pod story I listened to. A rather horrifying introduction, really, but also kind of reassuring: I'll never have to worry about this podcast pulling its punches or sacrificing artistic integrity to avoid offending people. I consider this a good thing, even if some of the individual stories might not be up my alley.

Haha, welcome. You picked a heck of an episode to start with! :p
And how! This one's really sorted the men from the boys from the indeterminate putative cephalopods! Paul the Octopus must be gnashing his beak for getting railroaded into football predictions!

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


Leslianne

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Reply #122 on: July 20, 2010, 06:21:09 AM
I haven't actually listened to Spar yet, but I read it a while back. It's interesting to see so many takes on it. The main thing that struck me was the alienation of intimacy with someone you don't understand and who doesn't understand you... I always thought that's why the bit with the poems was there. She tries to tell her boyfriend that's not what she wants or likes, but he keeps on with it anyway, trying to make that connection. That and the part where she touches something inside the alien that actually hurts it, the only thing that ever gets a change or a reaction, and she spends her time hunting for that spot but never finds it again. When I read it, I sort of got the idea of the alien as an extrapolation of the parts of other people you don't understand. You still have to share space with people, sometimes you even try to make that intimacy happen, but so many times, it's a miss, you know? You don't know what they want and they can't seem to tell you, and you hurt each other, or make each other miserable, or just do something that feels empty and meaningless, because you don't know how to bridge that gap.

Anyway, that's what I got out of Spar. A parable about terrible relationships.

Thanks to Scattercat for posting the interview link. I'ma go read that now.



Obleo21

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Reply #123 on: July 21, 2010, 06:32:13 PM
I never got  the sense that the alien ever considered what they were doing to be sex as it is perceived by humans.  I also thought that the MC also thought this, but didn't know how else to express it.  Perhaps this is why the MC refers to it's malleable body parts as ins and outs rather than by more anatomical terms.  It's impossible however to ignore the sum of individual experience, so the MC could still have the visceral reaction of the interaction being rape.

At a fundamental level, it is still interpersonal interaction.  If the MC didn't return to the alien after eating/pooping, than she'd be truly alone.  Which would be worse?

What if the alien wasn't one creature but a community like coral, and each time she was penetrated it was with a completely unique individual...

I think I'll read Johnson's interview now...



knigget

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Reply #124 on: July 21, 2010, 11:35:08 PM
I never got  the sense that the alien ever considered what they were doing to be sex as it is perceived by humans.  I also thought that the MC also thought this, but didn't know how else to express it.  Perhaps this is why the MC refers to it's malleable body parts as ins and outs rather than by more anatomical terms.  It's impossible however to ignore the sum of individual experience, so the MC could still have the visceral reaction of the interaction being rape.

At a fundamental level, it is still interpersonal interaction.  If the MC didn't return to the alien after eating/pooping, than she'd be truly alone.  Which would be worse?

What if the alien wasn't one creature but a community like coral, and each time she was penetrated it was with a completely unique individual...


I didn't think there was a way to make the MC's experience worse, in the story.

I didn't think of a gang rape, though.  Guess I'm just not... evil enough.

http://www.apoGrypha.blogspot.com

What would have been written. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)