Author Topic: 2010 politics  (Read 22461 times)

Talia

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Reply #25 on: November 03, 2010, 09:23:48 PM
While I see your point, I'm not entirely sure what you want. I mean, we are one country. You almost seem to be arguing in favor of things being run more like 50 mini-countries. (although if we did that then built a wall between certain southern states and the rest of us, that'd work out OK :p). Well, I mean you said want you wanted, but I just don't really understand why its so important to you. After all there's no guarantee your state goverment wont proceed to act like a bunch of douches, either. (Referring back to CT again - John Rowland, I'm lookin' at you!)



DKT

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Reply #26 on: November 03, 2010, 09:26:15 PM

Except for that rabid, mouthbreathing segment of the population who are having coronaries because they can't stand having a black man at the helm.  

I don't see why race has to be brought into this.  I despise the President for his beliefs, I need no other reason.  I would go as far as to call him and those that believe like him evil.  Up until the Rand Paul comments, no one had cast any dispersions on any individuals.  You feel free to insult him for something that you admit he is not, yet feel no qualms in calling out others for doing the same thing when it is done to someone you like.  You are a hypocrite.  I am done with this conversation.

Zorag, you started off saying earlier in this thread stating that you weren't attacking the president, but now you're calling him (and essentially - me) evil. And you're literally calling other people names. If you do come back to this conversation, please try to tone it down.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 09:28:50 PM by DKT »



Talia

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Reply #27 on: November 03, 2010, 09:30:41 PM
I just want to say I do apologize for causing offense, wasn't intended. And while you are correct for calling me on the Rand Paul comment, I do feel that race is very much an issue among many of the Obama detractors, particularly among that sect known as the Tea Party, so I stand by that comment.

That's all. I do apologize for coming off as uncivil if I have done so in any way.
I will also leave the thread now so keep on keepin' on with other commenters if you care to. I don't mean to ruin a good thread just because I have vehemently different political views from any given person.



Zorag

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Reply #28 on: November 03, 2010, 09:54:54 PM
I will not back down from my statement.  I see too many people receiving so-called aid from the government that have been harmed by it.  By disincentivizing personal growth and acheivement, the government does great harm.  In my book, that is evil.  I brought that up to defend my feelings about the President.  I will discuss things from a rational point of view, but I will not do so when another person is using  underhanded tactics.

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Zorag

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Reply #29 on: November 03, 2010, 09:58:09 PM
Where did I call someone a name?  I stated a fact.   Wait, I did call Rand Paul a lunatic, sorry about that.

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eytanz

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Reply #30 on: November 03, 2010, 10:15:18 PM
Where did I call someone a name?  I stated a fact.   Wait, I did call Rand Paul a lunatic, sorry about that.

You called Talia a hypocrite.

And you didn't just call your president evil, you called "those who believe like him evil". Which includes quite a few of the people you are talking to.

Plus, there is a big difference between stating that someone is causing evil and calling someone evil. The latter implies that you think the president (and those who believe like him) are *seeking* to cause harm; that the president's motivation is to harm Americans. I'm not an American, but quite a few of my friends who are voted for, and believe in, your president. I don't believe any of my friends wishes harm upon any American - they may very well be causing it by being mistaken about how to go about doing things, but that's a totally different debate.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 10:20:27 PM by eytanz »



DKT

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Reply #31 on: November 03, 2010, 10:21:03 PM
Where did I call someone a name?  I stated a fact.   Wait, I did call Rand Paul a lunatic, sorry about that.

You called Talia a hypocrite.

This is what I was referring to. But you also said:

I would go as far as to call [the president] and those that believe like him evil.

Which, you know, isn't helping any, and is rude. Please try to be polite.


Zorag

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Reply #32 on: November 03, 2010, 10:30:00 PM
I stand by my statement.  I am also not a racist.

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Zorag

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Reply #33 on: November 03, 2010, 10:33:38 PM
If I say I think Bush is evil for using our military to settle a family grudge, among other actions would that cause a problem?  Because I believe that as well.

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eytanz

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Reply #34 on: November 03, 2010, 10:36:19 PM
I stand by my statement.  I am also not a racist.

No one called you a racist.

I do, however, call you a troll. You seem to have created this thread for the sole reason of insulting those who disagree with you and passing moral judgement on a large swath of your country. I anticipate your response to me will be either leaving in a huff, or an angry rant. If you must choose on of these two, then I recommend it be the former, as the latter will just prove me right.

I am, however, not locking the thread because I want to give you the chance to prove me wrong. I don't give a damn what you say about the president of the USA, but I do care about what you say about other forumites. I'll let you figure out for yourself what sort of response may convince me that you are here to participate productively in the forum.



eytanz

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Reply #35 on: November 03, 2010, 10:36:54 PM
If I say I think Bush is evil for using our military to settle a family grudge, among other actions would that cause a problem?  Because I believe that as well.

If you said that everyone who believes in Bush's presidency is evil, then yes, that would cause the same kind of problem.

Presidents are fair game. Other forumites are not.



DKT

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Reply #36 on: November 03, 2010, 10:42:25 PM
If I say I think Bush is evil for using our military to settle a family grudge, among other actions would that cause a problem?  Because I believe that as well.

You're missing the point: you're not just calling an abstract political figure evil; you specifically called people on this forum evil if they agree with said political figure. Stop doing that.

And I do not care how close you stand to your statements; I do care that you're respectful to people on this forum, and that people are respectful for you. (Talia never did call you a racist, but she did apologize for giving offense.)

ETA: eytanz beat me to this, but it doesn't hurt to read some things twice.


Zorag

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Reply #37 on: November 03, 2010, 10:46:23 PM
Talia's post was no apology.  I am sorry for saying that those who belive like President Obama are evil.  I will ammend it to politicians that believe as he does are.

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Bdoomed

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Reply #38 on: November 03, 2010, 10:54:07 PM
Oh yes, us who agree with what Obama is doing are evil.  We are just evil people, and we hate America, and hate people.  We hate people so much that we like the idea of letting those who need insurance get insurance.  We are so evil that we think being nice to people is a good idea.

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Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Zorag

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Reply #39 on: November 03, 2010, 10:56:51 PM
This thread was started as commentary on the political landscape.  I admit that I inserted my personal belefs by cheering for gridlock and then later stating my personal beliefs about the President.  Please split the argumentative posts from this thread, as it still has merit. 

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DKT

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Reply #40 on: November 03, 2010, 11:00:10 PM
Talia's post was no apology.  I am sorry for saying that those who belive like President Obama are evil.  I will ammend it to politicians that believe as he does are.

No, actually she did apologize, and then she civil enough to say she didn't want to offend anyone else and wouldn't be participating anymore.

This thread was started as commentary on the political landscape.  I admit that I inserted my personal belefs by cheering for gridlock and then later stating my personal beliefs about the President.  Please split the argumentative posts from this thread, as it still has merit.  

Right now, your posts (and the ones reacting to it) are all the current discussion this topic has merited. So if people want to contribute something more to it, then they can do it here.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 11:01:52 PM by DKT »



Zorag

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Reply #41 on: November 03, 2010, 11:03:27 PM
Talia basically called all Tea Party members racists on her way out. 

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Zorag

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Reply #42 on: November 03, 2010, 11:16:15 PM
Eytanz, I just saw your post.  I missed it earlier.  You are correct, I should have said causing evil.  It is an important distinction.  I did not start this thread to troll.  Look at the earlier posts.

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Boggled Coriander

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Reply #43 on: November 04, 2010, 07:12:34 AM
Okay, I know I'm late to the party.  This thread's touched on something that's been on my mind lately, and I can't not say something.

Zorag, I agree with the sentiments you expressed in the early part of this thread, even if I don't always support your politics.  You didn't start this thread to troll.

Although there's a lot about the Tea Party I do not agree with, I agree that we shouldn't go around saying the Tea Party is racist.  It's not entirely about civility, although civility is an important part of it.  I also think it's very, very bad politics.  Lots of Tea Partiers feel liberals are condescending to them, and think they're bigoted ignoramuses.  As the meme that Tea Party = Racism spreads, what do you think will happen?  Tea Partiers will take that as confirmation.  They'll feel even more on the defensive, and get insular and stop listening to people with different viewpoints. 

If your political opponent thinks you're a jerk and won't listen to you, THAT DOES NOT HELP YOU AT ALL.

It works in both directions. 

The statement "Policies pursued by Presidents Bush and Obama have caused evil" feels much different from "I would go as far as to call him and those that believe like him evil."  Zorag, I realize you've already regretted saying it the way you did and I appreciate that.  I'm not trying to lecture anybody, and I apologize if I'm coming across that way. 

But you've made a huge subset of this thread readership mentally categorize you with Americans who like to compare the President to Hitler, or think it's appropriate to call him a Muslim.  You haven't said any of those things, I know.  But I feel like those people have already stopped listening to you.

And that doesn't help you at all.

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Zorag

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Reply #44 on: November 04, 2010, 10:36:42 AM
Well put, B.C.  Talia, feel free to chime in.  I, as others have stated better, do not care if you, I or anyone else says anything about the politicians, but let us agree to lay off the followers.  I do believe in the inheirant awesomeness of the human spirit, but my approach is not a gentle one.

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Zorag

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Reply #45 on: November 04, 2010, 10:46:35 AM
...and now to jerk this back on topic.  The Republicans are facing a possible scism.  The Tea Party, as fractitious as it is, is shaking up the party.  Democrats have traditionally been more of an umbrella party, and have experience at building a coalition from differring opinions.  This is the first time in my experience that the Rs will have to deal with such inner turmoil.  Many of the Tea Party are rebeling against the traditional leadership.

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Zorag

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Reply #46 on: November 04, 2010, 10:56:15 AM
When Clinton lost Congress, he moved more to the center, and managed to accomplish some things by being less partisian.  Bush increased the power of the executive branch.  With the Senate staying in Democratic control, it will be interesting to see what approach Obama will take.

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Reply #47 on: November 04, 2010, 08:59:03 PM
While I see your point, I'm not entirely sure what you want. I mean, we are one country. You almost seem to be arguing in favor of things being run more like 50 mini-countries. (although if we did that then built a wall between certain southern states and the rest of us, that'd work out OK :p). Well, I mean you said want you wanted, but I just don't really understand why its so important to you. After all there's no guarantee your state goverment wont proceed to act like a bunch of douches, either. (Referring back to CT again - John Rowland, I'm lookin' at you!)

50 individual states work like a marketplace of ideas. What works well in one market might not be a great solution for another market. Us Southerners don't need you yankees legislating to us the proper level and type of sweetener we put in our tea.  ;)

If your state is terrible and you feel strongly enough to move, it's not terribly painful to move from one state to another. It's a lot harder to consider moving from one country to another.

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DKT

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Reply #48 on: November 05, 2010, 03:52:01 PM
Those who dislike either of their own parties should seriously check out the new episode of THIS AMERICAN LIFE - in particular, the segment on the life-long friends who found a tea party organization is painfully truthful about what the road to hell is paved with...

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/417/this-party-sucks

Thanks for pointing this out. I'm a huge fan of This American Life, but hadn't gotten to this one yet. It was heartbreaking to hear about idealists within the Tea Party essentially fold. And I say this as someone who is very much not a Tea Party person.

And I was nodding my head a lot with Democrats sharing frustration with their own party.

So thanks for pointing it out!


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Reply #49 on: November 07, 2010, 03:44:13 PM
When Clinton lost Congress, he moved more to the center, and managed to accomplish some things by being less partisian.  Bush increased the power of the executive branch.  With the Senate staying in Democratic control, it will be interesting to see what approach Obama will take.

Obama started in the center. What's he going to do now... move further toward the extreme right?

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