Author Topic: Re: PC118: Sugar -- Gahlems and such.  (Read 9033 times)

Wenny

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on: August 24, 2010, 12:09:16 AM
"Golem" is pronounced with a long o. Goh-lem. Every time the reader said "gah-lem" I winced, and pretty soon I was waiting for it like it was some kind of game: "She said it again! Everyone drink!" 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 02:34:41 AM by Heradel »



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Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 02:22:20 PM
"Golem" is pronounced with a long o. Goh-lem. Every time the reader said "gah-lem" I winced, and pretty soon I was waiting for it like it was some kind of game: "She said it again! Everyone drink!" 

Gah-lem is a pretty common pronunciation of it these days.  More common than the "correct" pronunciation, I'd guess.



Wenny

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Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 06:05:25 PM

Gah-lem is a pretty common pronunciation of it these days.  More common than the "correct" pronunciation, I'd guess.



Not according to Merriam-Webster, dictionary.com, or any of the other sources I checked. "Golem" is commonly a long o, like in hoe or joe, and apparently also sometimes pronounced "goy-lem", though this is less common. Nothing I saw cited the "gah-lem" pronunciation that you suggest.  Perhaps you are thinking of "Gollum" from Lord of the Rings?



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 06:32:47 PM
Perhaps you are thinking of "Gollum" from Lord of the Rings?

That's what it kept making me think of.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


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Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 05:16:12 PM

Gah-lem is a pretty common pronunciation of it these days.  More common than the "correct" pronunciation, I'd guess.



Not according to Merriam-Webster, dictionary.com, or any of the other sources I checked. "Golem" is commonly a long o, like in hoe or joe, and apparently also sometimes pronounced "goy-lem", though this is less common. Nothing I saw cited the "gah-lem" pronunciation that you suggest.  Perhaps you are thinking of "Gollum" from Lord of the Rings?

I'm not saying that it is "officially" pronounced with an "ah" sound, but that I and other people I know in RL have tended to pronounce it that way in everyday conversation (yes we have everyday conversations about golems). 

I don't know where other people picked up the incorrect pronunciation, but "golem" is one of those words that I saw written hundreds of times before I ever heard it spoken (many video games I played as a kid, for instance), and the way I think that spelling would phonetically be pronounced in American English is with an "ah" sound rather than an "oh"--after so many readings in my head, that's the first pronunciation that comes to mind.

I don't think the Lord of the Rings movies have any bearing on that pronunciation, at least for me, because I was pronouncing it "ah" long before the movies.

"goh-lem", oddly, doesn't sound strange to my ear, and I seem to regard it as a regional English pronunciation in the same way that if I hear a heavily accented New Zealander speak my mind takes a moment to alter the vowel sounds in my head before parsing for meaning.  According to some online sources, "goy-lem" is also correct, and that does sound strange to my ear but it sounds distinctly Yiddish to me, so I kind of like that pronunciation despite how strange it sounds to me.

Anyway, this is all a roundabout way of saying, yes you are right that "goh-lem" or "goy-lem" are the correct ways to say it, but I would've mispronounced it too and I think that mispronunciation would be quite common in the general population.  I'll keep that in mind for the future, but I think it's worth cutting the reader some slack here.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 05:17:48 PM by Unblinking »



Wenny

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Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 06:54:36 PM



I'm not saying that it is "officially" pronounced with an "ah" sound, but that I and other people I know in RL have tended to pronounce it that way in everyday conversation (yes we have everyday conversations about golems). 

...the way I think that spelling would phonetically be pronounced in American English is with an "ah" sound rather than an "oh"--after so many readings in my head, that's the first pronunciation that comes to mind.

... I would've mispronounced it too and I think that mispronunciation would be quite common in the general population.  I'll keep that in mind for the future, but I think it's worth cutting the reader some slack here.


Besides the dictionary, simple phonic rules would guide to the correct pronunciation here: a vowel followed by a single consonant is usually long. You and a few friends mispronouncing a word is no reason why that should be presented as a viable alternate pronunciation, or be excused in a professional podcast where I would expect an experienced reader (and writer, and editor) to know the correct way to say "golem".





Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 07:06:18 PM
... the way I think that spelling would phonetically be pronounced in American English is with an "ah" sound rather than an "oh"

I'll disagree with you there.  While I admit there are many exceptions (three in a row in the beginning of this sentence!), generally when a vowel is followed by another vowel, either unseparated or separated by a single consonant, the first vowel is long.

Usually, the mechanism is 'silent E' ("Who can turn a can into a cane? Who can turn a pan into a pane? It's not too hard to see: it's Silent E." Thanks, Tom. :) ), though it doesn't have to be a silent letter.  Take silent itself, or begin or pronounce or duo, for example.

That being said, there are plenty of counterexamples, both of words with that pattern where the first vowel isn't long (like there, are and many in my first sentence ... or is the 'a' in many actually long, but elided? Hmm...) and vowels that are two (or more?) consonants away from the next vowel, and yet still long, like horrible, or lacking a following vowel at all, like go or be.

In the specific case of golem, I suspect that the cue to pronounce the 'o' as 'ah' may have stemmed* more from the fact that it looks like a foreign word (because it is) and so we assume it has different pronunciation rules than English does.




*Further evidence: note the extra 'm' added to stemmed, to keep it from becoming stemed, which would be pronounced like steamed.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


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Reply #7 on: August 26, 2010, 02:05:34 PM
Besides the dictionary, simple phonic rules would guide to the correct pronunciation here: a vowel followed by a single consonant is usually long. You and a few friends mispronouncing a word is no reason why that should be presented as a viable alternate pronunciation, or be excused in a professional podcast where I would expect an experienced reader (and writer, and editor) to know the correct way to say "golem".

As I've said more than once, I'm not claiming "gah-lem" is a correct alternate pronunciation, only that it is a common mispronunciation.  I'm not saying that Webster should put in a new alternate pronunciation or anything, and in the future I'll try to pronounce the long "o", but it's such a minor thing that it surprises me that that's the only point a commenter would say about the story is to point out a common mispronunciation mispronounced in the common way.  *shrug* 

I'm curious:  what did you think of the rest of it?  Did the "gah" distract you to the point that you have no opinion on the story itself?



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Reply #8 on: August 26, 2010, 02:14:00 PM
Wilson--Though I do not claim to be an English expert, I am familiar with the silent 'e'.  :)

If the word were "gole" or "goled", then the long "o" would be more clearcut then I'd guess that the "e" is truly silent.  But note that in "golem" the E is NOT silent (something which we all agree on)--it gets it's own syllable, and so to me that implies that it should not elongate the previous vowel.  "hologram" is a similar spelling that I pronounce the same way.  Maybe "hoh-lo" is correct, but I know I pronounce it "hah-lo".



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #9 on: August 26, 2010, 03:17:34 PM
I figured you probably were familiar with silent 'e'.  Mostly I included that as an excuse to quote Tom Lehrer lyrics.  :)

But also to point out that silent 'e' is only one mechanism (though maybe the most common?) for elongating a vowel.

I actually think we're pretty much in agreement at this point.  Because it's unusual (at least) for English, the 'm' at the end of golem (as opposed to a 'd' or an 's', as you say) signals to our pattern-matching brains that it is a loanword, and thus that different pronunciation conventions may apply.*

My point was simply that in my opinion (and it is only an opinion), that the reason for pronouncing it "gah-ləm" was not to match standard American phonetics, but for a different – but still reasonable – reason.

(The reason I hasten to point out that it's just an opinion is that whenever I stray into discussions about anything related to linguistics, I picture eytanz shaking his head at me pityingly, tsktsking and muttering about amateur dabblers. :) )



*I often wish this phenomenon occurred with the word foyer, which, as everyone outside the U.S. knows, should be pronounced "foyay". ;)

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


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Reply #10 on: August 26, 2010, 04:00:26 PM
I actually think we're pretty much in agreement at this point.  Because it's unusual (at least) for English, the 'm' at the end of golem (as opposed to a 'd' or an 's', as you say) signals to our pattern-matching brains that it is a loanword, and thus that different pronunciation conventions may apply.*

My point was simply that in my opinion (and it is only an opinion), that the reason for pronouncing it "gah-ləm" was not to match standard American phonetics, but for a different – but still reasonable – reason.

I think I was incorrect when I said that "gah-lem" was phonetical.  What you say about loanwords makes sense.

*I often wish this phenomenon occurred with the word foyer, which, as everyone outside the U.S. knows, should be pronounced "foyay". ;)

I've heard it both ways, myself.  Despite being from the US, I've always pronounced it "foyay" and for the longest time I thought that was the ONLY correct way, until I discovered that my wife has always said it as "foyer" and we had to look it up to solve the dispute at which point we learned that both are officially correct.

But I'm a bit odd, I sometimes, prefer non-American spelling variations like "theatre" instead of "theater".  I like the look of "colour" over "color" but it's not ingrained in my enough to actually type that myself without thinking.  "Realise" always looks wrong to me, though it seems more consistent with other English spellings than the American "z" in the word. 



Wenny

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Reply #11 on: August 26, 2010, 05:52:03 PM
As I've said more than once, I'm not claiming "gah-lem" is a correct alternate pronunciation, only that it is a common mispronunciation.  I'm not saying that Webster should put in a new alternate pronunciation or anything, and in the future I'll try to pronounce the long "o", but it's such a minor thing that it surprises me that that's the only point a commenter would say about the story is to point out a common mispronunciation mispronounced in the common way.  *shrug* 

I'm curious:  what did you think of the rest of it?  Did the "gah" distract you to the point that you have no opinion on the story itself?


I don't believe that "gah-lem" is a common mispronunciation, but as my saying 'I've never heard it said that away except for here' is no more a valid argument than you claiming that 'my friends and I all say it that way', I'm willing to stop arguing that point with you.

My original comment on this episode was not meant to inspire a heated discussion of phonics, though as a writer I take word use and pronunciation very seriously. Based on Podcastle's long history of quality episodes, thoughtfully chosen content, and staff of professional writers and editors, I assume they do, too. Which is why it surprised me enough --after 2 years of listening and never commenting previously-- to hear one of their readers consistently and repeatedly mispronounce a word that occurred frequently in the text. "Golem" is a word that common English phonetical rules would guide to proper pronunciation.  Wilson claims its spelling is unusual for English, and one might think that different pronunciation conventions might apply, but if this were the case, and the reader was in doubt, I would think that they might consult a dictionary.

My original comment was intended to express my surprise at the mispronunciation, and point out that it affected my ability to truly enjoy the story.  You ask if I have any opinion on the story itself, and I can honestly say no. It's been three days since I listened, and while I remember a sorceress, and sugar, and someone dying, and lightning carving a stone, mostly what I remember is pounding the steering wheel and muttering "GO-lem. GO-lem. It's GO-lem." to the iPod sitting on my dashboard.



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Reply #12 on: August 26, 2010, 06:06:42 PM
I don't believe that "gah-lem" is a common mispronunciation, but as my saying 'I've never heard it said that away except for here' is no more a valid argument than you claiming that 'my friends and I all say it that way', I'm willing to stop arguing that point with you.

It might be an interesting question for a poll  "How have you typically pronounced the word "golem":  with three options "goh-lem", "goy-lem", "gah-lem".  I say this without quite enough interest to figure out how to set up a poll, but it might be interesting.

Though I think my different pronunciation may have something to do with it being a loanword, I have never thought on a conscious level "That word looks foreign so I'm going to pronounce it in a non-phonetic way."  I've been mispronouncing it for SO long, probably for a couple decades since I first saw it in a video game (probably Dragon Warrior for the NES) that if I had been the one to record the story it would not have occurred to me that I've been mispronouncing it all this time.  Pronunciation guides only help if it occurs to you that you might be pronouncing something wrong to look them up.

There have been at least several other stories about golems on the EA casts, 1 which I think uses the word "golem" specifically for sure.  I wonder how the word was pronounced in those stories?



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 08:02:40 PM
one might think that different pronunciation conventions might apply, but if this were the case, and the reader was in doubt, I would think that they might consult a dictionary.

I am in doubt she was in doubt.  :D  As Unblinking said above, if someone has assumed a pronunciation, correct or not, for much of one's life, it would never occur to them to question that.  If I'd recorded a story containing the word awry sometime before I was about 18 or 20, I'd have blithely and boldly pronounced it "aw-ree" and never known or even suspected it was wrong.

Come to think of it, I may well have had an incorrect pronunciation of golem in my head between the time I first read it until I first heard it spoken.

I remember a sorceress, and sugar, and someone dying, and lightning carving a stone,

I thought the lightning carving the stone was a pretty darned cool idea.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


Loz

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Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 09:53:20 PM
Does the fact that this thread has mostly been sidetracked into a discussion on the proper pronunciation of 'golem' say more about the folks around here or about the story? I think I've generally liked Cat Rambo stories but this was one where my attention just kept sliding off of it no matter how hard I tried to fix it.



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 10:22:19 PM
Does the fact that this thread has mostly been sidetracked into a discussion on the proper pronunciation of 'golem' say more about the folks around here or about the story?

The former, I think.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


Wenny

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Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 10:32:40 PM
It might be an interesting question for a poll  "How have you typically pronounced the word "golem":  with three options "goh-lem", "goy-lem", "gah-lem".  I say this without quite enough interest to figure out how to set up a poll, but it might be interesting.

/sets up a poll:  How do you pronounce "Golem"

A. Gah-lem

B. The right way.

 ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 10:34:28 PM by Wenny »



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Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 11:10:06 PM
It might be an interesting question for a poll  "How have you typically pronounced the word "golem":  with three options "goh-lem", "goy-lem", "gah-lem".  I say this without quite enough interest to figure out how to set up a poll, but it might be interesting.

/sets up a poll:  How do you pronounce "Golem"

A. Gah-lem

B. The right way.

 ;D

Ah, but there are TWO right ways!



Wenny

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Reply #18 on: August 27, 2010, 06:28:25 AM
It might be an interesting question for a poll  "How have you typically pronounced the word "golem":  with three options "goh-lem", "goy-lem", "gah-lem".  I say this without quite enough interest to figure out how to set up a poll, but it might be interesting.

/sets up a poll:  How do you pronounce "Golem"

A. Gah-lem

B. The right way.

 ;D

Ah, but there are TWO right ways!

Yes, but neither of them are "gah-lem"   ;D



Scattercat

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Reply #19 on: August 27, 2010, 06:34:12 AM
It might be an interesting question for a poll  "How have you typically pronounced the word "golem":  with three options "goh-lem", "goy-lem", "gah-lem".  I say this without quite enough interest to figure out how to set up a poll, but it might be interesting.

/sets up a poll:  How do you pronounce "Golem"

A. Gah-lem

B. The right way.

 ;D

Ah, but there are TWO right ways!

Yes, but neither of them are "gah-lem"   ;D

The correct pronunciation is "Aye-em-ah-DING-bat."  Godspeed, children of Earth.



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Reply #20 on: August 27, 2010, 12:21:40 PM
It might be an interesting question for a poll  "How have you typically pronounced the word "golem":  with three options "goh-lem", "goy-lem", "gah-lem".  I say this without quite enough interest to figure out how to set up a poll, but it might be interesting.

/sets up a poll:  How do you pronounce "Golem"

A. Gah-lem

B. The right way.

 ;D

Ah, but there are TWO right ways!

Yes, but neither of them are "gah-lem"   ;D

Indeed, I admit this for the dozenth time.  ;D




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Reply #21 on: August 28, 2010, 11:54:11 PM
One more vote for the correct pronunciation -- long "o" as in "ho" and "yo" and "fifteen men on a dead man's chest."*





* Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.


Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #22 on: September 18, 2010, 03:35:36 AM
Another reason why someone would choose a non-canonical pronunciation for a word:

Quote
One of the disadvantages of a weird language like English, with its multifarious exceptions and irregularities and a spelling system so divergent from pure phonological representation as to border on the ideographic, is a reflexive preference for the marked.

I am here using marked in the linguistic sense, meaning “exceptional, unusual, distinct from the normative pattern”. When confronted with a choice between a form that seems simple and logical and one that defies common sense, and in the absence of any clear or authoritative sense of which to choose, we will typically choose the weird one on the assumption that it must be the right one or why would it be there? And the more simple and logical one will tend to be taken as informal or simply incorrect.
...

Why else would so many people firmly (though erroneously) believe that one of the most consistent and inflexible rules in English – that we use an before a vowel sound and a before a consonant sound, as shown by examples such as an hour, a use, a house, an umbrella – would have one exception, to be defended to the death: an historic?

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham