Author Topic: EP258: Raising Jenny  (Read 51032 times)

Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #100 on: October 04, 2010, 07:25:18 PM
A facebook acquaintance of mine just posted this status:

do you ever wish you could be in 2 places at once? watch out, I may be cloning myself in the near future!

It's hard to know whether she actually believes her consciousness would be in two places at once, or just her DNA.  I suspect the former, though.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 04:32:48 PM by Wilson Fowlie »

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


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Reply #101 on: October 05, 2010, 01:35:20 PM
We don't know why other people clone themselves do we? It's been a while since I listened to this so I might be forgetting something, but it's only that Jennyone is doing this because she thinks she'll be reincarnated as her granddaughter, and providing this is just a belief of hers and she's not mentally impaired in some way then she has a right to this service, regardless of whether she's right or wrong. Does it say anywhere in the story that the cloning company was telling her to clone herself so she'd come back as her granddaughter?

Exactly.  They are providing a cloning service, and if the customer wants to fill in their own unprovable details, then that's the customer's prerogative.



Rughat

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Reply #102 on: October 05, 2010, 02:48:36 PM
To everyone who doesn't like It's a Wonderful Life, there's an alternate interpretation that I find very compelling.

From http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/incident-at-bedfore-falls-bridge.html:

Quote
John: Gotta say, once you realize George Bailey dies in the middle, it's a totally different movie.
Chris: ... what?
John: It's a Wonderful Life is really a movie -- and I'm not the first person to say this -- about how a man's dreams are crushed by family expectations and middle class responsibilities. George Bailey's dreams of going to college and off to Europe are destroyed by the allegedly idyllic small town values that in fact trap him. Suffocate him.
Chris: ...
John: So, say Bailey jumped off that bridge and died. Say Clarence was there to guide him to heaven. What would heaven be for such a man? It would be validation. And that's what Clarence the Angel gives him, a tour meant to show him how significant he is. Or how significant, at least, he always secretly believed himself to be.

More at the site.  It really changed what I thought of the film, and made it much more interesting.



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Reply #103 on: October 05, 2010, 02:52:16 PM
To everyone who doesn't like It's a Wonderful Life, there's an alternate interpretation that I find very compelling.

From http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/2009/03/incident-at-bedfore-falls-bridge.html:

Quote
John: Gotta say, once you realize George Bailey dies in the middle, it's a totally different movie.
Chris: ... what?
John: It's a Wonderful Life is really a movie -- and I'm not the first person to say this -- about how a man's dreams are crushed by family expectations and middle class responsibilities. George Bailey's dreams of going to college and off to Europe are destroyed by the allegedly idyllic small town values that in fact trap him. Suffocate him.
Chris: ...
John: So, say Bailey jumped off that bridge and died. Say Clarence was there to guide him to heaven. What would heaven be for such a man? It would be validation. And that's what Clarence the Angel gives him, a tour meant to show him how significant he is. Or how significant, at least, he always secretly believed himself to be.

More at the site.  It really changed what I thought of the film, and made it much more interesting.

Thanks for sharing that, it's really interesting!



Sgarre1

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Reply #104 on: October 05, 2010, 08:08:49 PM
Since we're talking IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE varients, I guess I should bring up the 1984 book by David Thomson called SUSPECTS.  It starts as seemingly short biographies of characters from a host of classic noir films, fleshing out the backgrounds and psychologies of a number of tough guys, femme fatales and down on their luck hacks familiar from films like THE KILLERS, OUT OF THE PAST, etc., but the reader begins to realize that something like a large family history that involves both pre and post-war america is being built behind the scenes, in references and allusions, and eventually the book culminates in a way that, without giving too much away, recasts IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE as noir scenario (including the rather sad realization that certain characters from notorious films, one being Travis Bickle in TAXI DRIVER, are Bailey's failed children, eaten up by a post-war/post Watergate world).  Good stuff and well worth tracking down.



zerotkatama

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Reply #105 on: October 07, 2010, 05:54:45 AM
This story came along at an interesting time for me, as at the same time, I was studying Nature Vs. Nurture in my intro Psych class. Interestingly, the common consensus seems to be that it's really a mix of the two ("Nurture works on what Nature endows" I believe it was said in my text). I forwarded this to my psych professor.



DarkKnightJRK

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Reply #106 on: October 07, 2010, 01:26:32 PM
I thought it was very interesting and compelling, solid take on the whole "nature vs. nurture" conflict. Had me think about my relation with my own parents, and how I might handle my own children. Some of the characters are pretty insufferable, like "Jenny One," but I didn't think they were badly written characters--they were insufferable because of viable, human flaws, and it felt like that was the writer's intent. I'm kind-of surprised that, outside of some small references, the whole cloning thing was never mentioned again--I'd be curious to see what "Jenny Two's" reaction to being a clone of her mother's mother would be.



Hysteria

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Reply #107 on: October 13, 2010, 02:53:46 AM
I don't know what to say about an episode like this, because it really made me dislike the mother. Considering that she, for all intents and purposes, "won" the fight to keep Adrian right where she was, in Missouri, for pretty much all her life, despite the fact toward the end you get the sense that Adrian would have been much happier elsewhere. However, her mother pretty much breaks her will after the accident, having her come home, and then, when Adrian is 24, she's the one who has to raise the clone of her mother. Who then doesn't want to see the world, but wants to stay in her own little corner of it. So yeah, Adrian is pretty much trapped in an unexciting job that for all intents and purposes seems dead-end, in a house her mother (or at least her clone) picked out for her, and in the end she lets Jennifer have her way.

This story is practically crying out for a sequel told from Jennifer's point of view, especially with all the loose plot threads dangling. What was the stigma attached to being a clone? What would Jennifer's reaction be when she discovers she's a clone? I really wanted to know the answers to these questions, and I was a little disappointed when they weren't addressed.

As far as "It's a Wonderful Life" goes...I do like that movie, although I think the ending as it stands is unsettling. George is still facing charges of embezzlement, Old Man Potter gets away with stealing a substantial amount of money, and it's pretty unsatisfying on some level. I kind of like the old Saturday Night Live lost footage of It's a Wonderful Life.

Then again, it's not a bad lesson, is it? It can be deeply frustrating to see George keep putting off his dreams, but I think a lot of people do that. I've had to do it a couple times, usually to help someone else out, and it doesn't get any easier to do. It's a little comforting to think that although you had to sacrifice, it was ultimately worth something.



hardware

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Reply #108 on: October 14, 2010, 01:55:39 PM
While I can agree that the SF element here is only there to enhance the central conflict between protagonist and mother, I think the story had a lot going for it. The characters felt believable, the child-parent relations as well, and it was in general well told with a nice pacing. If I don't bend backwards of joy it is because the moral journey here felt pretty obvious and a bit too neatly resolved. In fact, the end was the only part that didn't feel psychologically realistic. The characters were never very likable (which is fine, I never understood the complaints about not being able to like the characters), so I didn't see the need to give them the rosy end.




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Reply #109 on: October 14, 2010, 03:14:13 PM
(which is fine, I never understood the complaints about not being able to like the characters)

I don't always need sympathetic characters, but one of the myriad reasons I may like a story is that I have someone to root for.  There's something satisfying about seeing a likable character overcome nearly impossible odds to win the day.  If that character is a douche from the very beginning... well, them getting exactly what they want may not be as exciting.

There are also characters that one loves to hate, and those stories can be great too.  It's just a matter of what that particular story's style is effective at.



seanpeter

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Reply #110 on: October 17, 2010, 03:15:27 PM
Mom was a controlling bitch.  Did you get the part when Dad slammed the door as he left?  Mom was trying to strangle one of his dreams too.



ElectricPaladin

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Reply #111 on: October 17, 2010, 03:21:54 PM
Mom was a controlling bitch.  Did you get the part when Dad slammed the door as he left?  Mom was trying to strangle one of his dreams too.

I was a little bothered by Dad's vanishing seeming entirely pinned on Dad... but on further reflection I realized that the story was actually silent on that. It just presented the story from the child's point of view, without narrative judgement, and even she never exactly blamed her dad. I did think it was odd that she never sought out contact with her father (and that her father never sought out her), though.

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Gamercow

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Reply #112 on: October 20, 2010, 07:12:46 PM
I really liked this one, and I'm not quite sure why.  1)I am male, and all the characters in this story were female.  2)It is strongly about kids and parenting.  I dislike most children, and do not want to be a parent. 3)It is mostly about parental relationships, particularly controlling ones.  I had a very good upbringing, so I can't relate on that score.  I think it just seemed genuine and honest to me, and I thought that Adrian's character grew quite a bit in the story, even though there wasn't any conflict to speak of, other than her conflict with herself and her past. 

On the Soft/Hard SF front, I'm not sure where I fall, as I clearly like both.  For me, good writing is good writing. 

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yicheng

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Reply #113 on: October 26, 2010, 04:16:50 PM
I enjoyed the implementation of the story.  The reading was superb and I found the portrayals of the characters, especially the mother/daughter (err...  mother/daughter/mother) relationship to be quite believable. 

However, I found myself getting really annoyed at the main character, and I found her quite whiny and lacking in personal responsibility.  Okay, so you never got to live your childhood dream: join the club called "Adulthood", and move on!  I think she just found it far easier to pine her loss of dreams and place a convenient blame on her mother, rather than take responsibility for her own life decisions and actually take concrete actions that might lead her to where she wants to be.  So you didn't get to go to college, and now your life is over?  What about community college?  What about night courses, online college?  She had 2~3 years after having the baby where she didn't even need to have a job, fer chrissake.  She's already living a life that's far better than 90% of the people on earth, but she'd rather wallow in self-pity and victim-mentality and project all that baggage on her child.

Finally, I didn't read the entire thread, so I have to apologize if I'm re-opening a can-o-worms.  Maybe it's because I'm not born in America, but I never really "got" why Americans think telling their kids "You can be anything you want" was a good idea.  I mean, it's obviously not true.  There's no way that pudgy kid from the chess club (speaking as one) was going to be a Pro-NFL Linebacker and date Super-models.  Most little girls aren't going to grow up to be horse-riding princess, nor all the little boys become race-car drivers or professional rappers.  Even the people lucky enough to be born with exceeding amounts of natural talent have to meet right people at the right time.  To me it always seemed like it was setting up your child with false hopes and disappointment the first time they fail in life (and who hasn't failed?).  When I was growing up I was always told things like "be a good person", "contribute something useful to the world", "put the needs of your family and others before yours", etc..  My father, who was probably very liberal by traditional Chinese standards, just told me "I don't care what you do, just make sure you do something that matters".  Me, personally, I'd rather tell my child "Go where life leads you, and be yourself, whatever that is".

Quote
You know how it is. Sometimes
we plan a trip to one place,
but something takes us to another.

When a horse is being broken, the trainer
pulls it in many different directions,
so the horse will come to know
what it is to be ridden.

The most beautiful and alert horse is one
completely attuned to the rider.

God fixes a passionate desire in you,
and then disappoints you.
God does that a hundred times!

God breaks the wings of one intention
and then gives you another,
cuts the rope of contriving,
so you'll remember your dependence.

But sometimes your plans work out!
You feel fulfilled and in control.

That's because, if you were always failing,
you might give up. But remember,
it is by failures that lovers
stay aware of how they are loved.

Failure is the key
to the kingdom within.

Your prayer should be, "Break the legs
of what I want to happen. Humiliate
my desire. Eat me like candy.
It's spring and finally
I have no will."

-- Rumi
:)



Gamercow

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Reply #114 on: October 27, 2010, 08:46:25 PM
Finally, I didn't read the entire thread, so I have to apologize if I'm re-opening a can-o-worms.  Maybe it's because I'm not born in America, but I never really "got" why Americans think telling their kids "You can be anything you want" was a good idea.  I mean, it's obviously not true.  There's no way that pudgy kid from the chess club (speaking as one) was going to be a Pro-NFL Linebacker and date Super-models. 

I think that most American parents meant it more as "You should try to do whatever it is you love."  At least it was when I was growing up. And it is usually used on younger kids, under 10, who really do have a larger scope of possibilities in front of them. 

The cow says "Mooooooooo"


ElectricPaladin

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Reply #115 on: October 27, 2010, 09:05:40 PM
Finally, I didn't read the entire thread, so I have to apologize if I'm re-opening a can-o-worms.  Maybe it's because I'm not born in America, but I never really "got" why Americans think telling their kids "You can be anything you want" was a good idea.  I mean, it's obviously not true.  There's no way that pudgy kid from the chess club (speaking as one) was going to be a Pro-NFL Linebacker and date Super-models. 

I think that most American parents meant it more as "You should try to do whatever it is you love."  At least it was when I was growing up. And it is usually used on younger kids, under 10, who really do have a larger scope of possibilities in front of them. 

You've got a point... and you're wrong.

Here it is: parents probably shouldn't tell their kids "you can be whatever you want," because it's just not so. Most people who try to play professional sports never make it. Most would-be novelists are never published. More academics work at undistinguished universities than at the Harvards and Stanfords of the world. Chances are good that you will never be a big deal in whatever field you set out to conquer - that's just the world works. Feeding kids a BS version of the world creates a sense of entitlement.

On the other hand, it is true that you can do what you love with your life. Maybe not professionally. Maybe not in a big riches-and-fame-and-women sort of way. But that doesn't mean you can't do it. I might never reform America's broken education system, but I'm two years into my teaching career, and that's about two hundred kids who have had the benefit of a solid 7th grade science education, courtesy of me. I might never be New York Times bestselling novelist, but I can write, and I can find a way to share my stories with the world. It isn't always easy. Living like this, you end up doing a lot of things you need to do for the sake of the few things you want to do. There are sacrifices to be made, compromises to be negotiated, and pain to be endured. But so far, it's worth it.

So maybe the line we feed our kids should be this: "If you are willing to pay the price, you can do what you want with your life. Good luck."

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Gamercow

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Reply #116 on: October 28, 2010, 02:38:44 AM
I personally prefer yicheng's message of "Go where life leads you, and be yourself, whatever that is" over ElectricPaladin's "If you are willing to pay the price, you can do what you want with your life. Good luck."  EP's may be more realistic, but rather pessimistic.  I'm not sure what I would do if myself of today went back in time 25 years and told that me that I would be in a cloth-covered gray cubicle staring at a computer screen for 9+ hours a day contributing nothing to society, I think the younger me would be pretty depressed. 

The cow says "Mooooooooo"


Scattercat

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Reply #117 on: October 28, 2010, 03:25:04 AM
Man, I was a cynical child.  If you'd told me that, I'd have been mildly surprised I hadn't gotten my ass killed and that I was gainfully employed.



ElectricPaladin

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Reply #118 on: October 28, 2010, 03:54:22 AM
I personally prefer yicheng's message of "Go where life leads you, and be yourself, whatever that is" over ElectricPaladin's "If you are willing to pay the price, you can do what you want with your life. Good luck."  EP's may be more realistic, but rather pessimistic.  I'm not sure what I would do if myself of today went back in time 25 years and told that me that I would be in a cloth-covered gray cubicle staring at a computer screen for 9+ hours a day contributing nothing to society, I think the younger me would be pretty depressed. 

I dunno. I find it really empowering to think that I can have whatever I want if I'm willing to pay the price.

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Reply #119 on: October 28, 2010, 05:38:53 PM
I personally prefer yicheng's message of "Go where life leads you, and be yourself, whatever that is" over ElectricPaladin's "If you are willing to pay the price, you can do what you want with your life. Good luck."  EP's may be more realistic, but rather pessimistic.  I'm not sure what I would do if myself of today went back in time 25 years and told that me that I would be in a cloth-covered gray cubicle staring at a computer screen for 9+ hours a day contributing nothing to society, I think the younger me would be pretty depressed. 

I like yicheng's message too.  It's fairly similar to my parents' style of encouragement.  My parents never insisted that I HAD to go to college, but they just made sure I understood the benefits of going vs. not going, and I decided to go, as did my brother and my sister.  My dreams of what I wanted to do shifted, but in a way that makes sense from shift to shift.  When I was a kid I wanted to be a cartoonist, because I wanted to create those characters, and turn them from concept to concrete.  In high school I wanted to be a video game programmer, because of an extension of that same desire, extended to interactive fiction.  In college I met some people who were video game programmers, who worked way more hours than I considered sane on a regular basis just to keep their job, and I shifted to video processing because I could find a job in it that I could work sane hours, could still enjoy the visual medium, and could be happy doing what I do. 



LaShawn

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Reply #120 on: November 12, 2010, 05:13:03 PM
Very interesting. I listened to this yesterday after I had come from my son's parent-teacher conference. She spent most of the time telling how creative and bright he was, and yet how he couldn't focus, gets hung up on the smallest details. It was like she held a mirror right at me.

I found this story to be quite complicated. What we have here is a story of two women who fail to understand each other. Yes, Jenny the mother was overbearing and manipulative in a passive-aggressive way. Adrian falls prey to her sense of "duty" (remember, Jenny never said that Adrian is to raise the clone--she only stipulated it be one of her daughters.) At the same time, though, she hungers for her mother to understand her, so I don't fault her in raising the clone herself. I also happen to have an overbearing mother, to the point that strongly against her wishes, I left (I now live in a neighboring state whereas my sisters still live with my mother). In the two years I've seen her, she's only come up and see me twice, and only for an afternoon, really, than the many times we've gone down to see her. And yet, dang it all, I still do, because I can't help it. I want her to understand me. She's my mother.

I'm in agreement with Mur at the end, when I hungered to see a change in Adrian, that after her epiphany that she would re-examine her own life, make changes at last of going to college, going off to school. But it could very well be that Jennifer would see Adrian's change of herself after she gets married as complete rejection. And then it will be misunderstandings all the way forward.

I guess, to make a long story short, it's hard to raise a kid who has a completely different make-up than you. Even if, at the heart of things, the two are you are the same.

And no, I never saw It's a Wonderful life either. But I did read Cyteen. Awesome story.

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LaShawn

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Reply #121 on: February 07, 2011, 05:30:31 PM
Heh...today's Dilbert made me think of this story!


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Balu

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Reply #122 on: February 08, 2011, 04:53:04 PM
What a waste of time this story was.

It's only saving grace was that it reminded me of the Turkey City Lexicon, something which always makes me smile:

Abbess Phone Home

Takes its name from a mainstream story about a medieval cloister which was sold as SF because of the serendipitous arrival of a UFO at the end. By extension, any mainstream story with a gratuitous SF or fantasy element tacked on so it could be sold.

http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html

I bet that the clone thing wasn't added to this until after it had been turned down by Woman's Own  :D



iamafish

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Reply #123 on: February 08, 2011, 09:43:18 PM
except that the cloning element was important to the story because Jennifer was an exact clone of Jenny. Had she just been the narrator's daughter it would have had far less impact.

the 'sci-fi bit' doesn't have to be ever-present for it to be important to the story or for it to be labeled sci-fi.

I'd love for you to explain why this story was a waste of time.


Balu

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Reply #124 on: February 08, 2011, 10:57:12 PM
I'd love for you to explain why this story was a waste of time.

Because it took the place of the usual top quality SF I thought I was going to spend fifty minutes listening to.

Instead I was tricked into wasting almost an hour of my life being subjected to something that should have been sent to Good Housekeeping.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure lots of people love this sort of dreary middleaged emo schtick. But that's no excuse for sticking a gimp mask of an SF motif on it and smuggling it into Escape Pod.