Author Topic: EP259: The Lady or the Tiger  (Read 32275 times)

CryptoMe

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1146
Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 05:51:03 PM
  I must admit feeling a little disappointed that we do not find out what the narrator's decision was, but I understand why we don't. There is no right or wrong choice for him to make, and telling us what his choice was would only serve to disappoint the half of the audience who felt, and correctly so, that it was the wrong choice.
I, too, was very disappointed that we weren't told the narrator's decision. This detail is an important window into the mind and soul of the narrator, which wasn't really given to us in the rest of the story (if it had been, there'd be no question about the narrator's choice).  So, I don't think it's okay to leave it out. Doing so leaves the story unfinished, in my opinion.

Regarding the original "Lady or the Tiger"...
Does she love him enough to give him happiness that she can envy but never taste, or would she rather deny her rival the pleasure of beating her and taking her man away, even if it means no one can have him?
I think that story is a commentary on the nature of love (and trust). When you love someone, their happiness is more important to you than your own. There is no "enough" about it; either you love them and want the best for them (even if it's with someone else), or you don't. If you would rather see them die than be happy without you, then you don't love them at all, you love yourself. Unfortunately, too many people don't recognize this.



DKT

  • Friendly Neighborhood
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4980
  • PodCastle is my Co-Pilot
    • Psalms & Hymns & Spiritual Noir
Reply #26 on: September 28, 2010, 08:32:31 PM
I don't want the lady's head or the tiger's head. SOMEBODY BRING ME THE HEAD OF NORM SHERMAN!!!! Preferrably, in a refrigerator so we can clone an army of him to populate the New Jurassic Age.

So happy he's back sharing EP hosting duties, especially when the stories deal with Giant Lizards and things.


tpi

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 93
Reply #27 on: September 29, 2010, 09:56:17 AM
I really loved the world building in this one.  A quicksand desert where people live on the backs of lizards--I want to see more in this world!  But the story that filled in the awesome setting...  not so much.


Personally, I hated the world building. No real logic, more suitable for fantasy than science fiction.


Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #28 on: September 29, 2010, 01:44:08 PM
Personally, I hated the world building. No real logic, more suitable for fantasy than science fiction.

I pretty much considered it a fantasy story, so I wouldn't really argue with that.



Wilson Fowlie

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1475
    • The Maple Leaf Singers
Reply #29 on: September 29, 2010, 03:53:38 PM
I am glad that people have already pointed out the cringe-worthy misreading of the original "Lady or the Tiger," which caused me to shout and gesture wildly at my computer and drown out Norm with an impromptu lecture on the thematic content and history of the original story and then have to rewind to listen to it properly.

  :D

I wish I'd been there, or that you'd had a recorder going.  :)

I didn't go quite that far, but I was fairly exasperated.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


Lionman

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Next time, I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.
    • The Practice of IT.
Reply #30 on: September 29, 2010, 08:22:45 PM
The ending was well-crafted.  My question is: When you listened to the end, what did you answer/guess the answer to the question was?

Failure is an event, not a person.


Unblinking

  • Sir Postsalot
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 8729
    • Diabolical Plots
Reply #31 on: September 30, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
The ending was well-crafted.  My question is: When you listened to the end, what did you answer/guess the answer to the question was?

I didn't really decide one way or the other.  Since the ending was clearly crafted specifically to be ambiguous, it didn't really provoke me to consider.  (that's one of those things where, if I can see the author intent too clearly, it becomes less interesting)



Lionman

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
  • Next time, I'll just let sleeping dogs lie.
    • The Practice of IT.
Reply #32 on: September 30, 2010, 05:32:07 PM
I didn't really decide one way or the other.  Since the ending was clearly crafted specifically to be ambiguous, it didn't really provoke me to consider.  (that's one of those things where, if I can see the author intent too clearly, it becomes less interesting)

My thought was that as I was listening, my mind jumped in and inserted my decision at that moment, which is what prompted my question.

Failure is an event, not a person.


montsamu

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Reply #33 on: September 30, 2010, 08:18:31 PM
I really enjoyed this one, particularly the giant lizards on quicksand, etc. I'm not sure of the science value of "oh noes, some 0.0000001% of our carbon might be traded" but it provided some interest politically. The "and now I'll go off and leave my wounded brother to laser-lathe the head off my beloved" had a bit too predictable an outcome (an accident? no way!) but all in all, I give this one two thumbs up. Every time I think "Ah, that's it, I really, really have picked Pod Castle over EscapePod" a story like this one reaches out and says, "Not so fast." But, seeing as it's mainly the awesome community of talking tigers living on giant, continental lizards which gives me the "love" factor for this story: I do think I'm turning my interests back towards fantasy pretty strongly of late.



jjtraw

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 24
Reply #34 on: September 30, 2010, 08:51:46 PM
Quote
SOMEBODY BRING ME THE HEAD OF NORM SHERMAN!!!! Preferrably, in a refrigerator so we can clone an army of him to populate the New Jurassic Age.

I love it when Norm Sherman lends voice to a story, either narrating or hosting! But I'm not sure the world could handle an *army* of him. Too much awesome in one place.

I was annoyed by the author's interpretation of the original story, but let it slide, because the story crafted had wonderful world-building. Colossal lizards in a sea of sand, YES! Modern humans living as parasites on the back of a huge creature - that's a fun concept.

I didn't mind the ambiguous ending - it was right for the story. But myself, I think the narrator chose the lady. Because he says he agonized for the rest of his life about whether he'd made the "right" choice. Cutting off his brother's life would cut off all the child's future possibility - additional acts of terrorism, or acts of greatness. The lady was a woman grown, and didn't seem given to committing world-changing acts, beyond the simple act of loving a child. If he had chosen his brother, time would tell if his choice was good for society or bad, and he'd be less given to wondering later. Choosing the lady was neutral.



heyes

  • Peltast
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
    • The Returning
Reply #35 on: October 01, 2010, 12:09:01 PM
I listened to this story while waiting on the side of the road for a family member to get out of work.  So besides the fact that I was dying to keep my mind of the clock, I really liked this story.  The setting really got my mind working, and it had some of the mythic story telling feel along with the swash buckling adventure.  I mean it was implied anyway.

"Feed me Seymour!"
     -Audry II
"You were not put on the Earth to get it, Mr. Burton"
     - Lo Pan


Nixelplix

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Reply #36 on: October 01, 2010, 01:33:05 PM
This was a good one-- liked the world building, but sometimes I have a hard time feeling sorry for individuals when humans have colonized the galaxy.



MCWagner

  • Wins
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1526
Reply #37 on: October 03, 2010, 03:49:14 PM
I'll skip the by now well-tread ground regarding misinterpretation of the original.  (I did a bit of flailing myself.)  I did, however, want to comment on something that's always puzzled me about the original story; the way every reading assumes that the victim/recipient just blithely goes along with whatever the princess suggests.  Should the story be not just about what sort of fate the princess feels she should grant her beloved and the inner conflict of jealousy, but also how well the man knows the princess's personality?  Does he know her to be a ravingly jealous individual or has he always thought she was forthright and generous?  And does she know how he sees her?  The convolutions of second-guessing that follow are, to me, much more fascinating than the surface-level choice.
I, too, was very disappointed that we weren't told the narrator's decision. This detail is an important window into the mind and soul of the narrator, which wasn't really given to us in the rest of the story (if it had been, there'd be no question about the narrator's choice).  So, I don't think it's okay to leave it out. Doing so leaves the story unfinished, in my opinion.
I'd always interpreted that as the point of the original story... this is a seminal tale for pointing out that "story" is created at the intersection of the text and the reader; and is one of the few historical tales which makes it explicit by saying "you, the reader, must decide what happened."  If anything, the new tale got this correct above all other points.



icegirl

  • Palmer
  • **
  • Posts: 20
Reply #38 on: October 03, 2010, 09:28:00 PM
Meh!
I always thought the original story was written by an english teacher looking for an essay topic to torture kids with... More interesting as an idea to debate than as a story. I didn't think this rewrite really improved on that.



Scattercat

  • Caution:
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 4904
  • Amateur wordsmith
    • Mirrorshards
Reply #39 on: October 03, 2010, 09:33:29 PM
the way every reading assumes that the victim/recipient just blithely goes along with whatever the princess suggests.  Should the story be not just about what sort of fate the princess feels she should grant her beloved and the inner conflict of jealousy, but also how well the man knows the princess's personality?

I've never heard that assumption, even when I first encountered the story back in fifth grade.  The question has always been whether he can trust what she says, since she doesn't indicate which door she's guiding him towards.



MCWagner

  • Wins
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1526
Reply #40 on: October 04, 2010, 02:41:21 AM
the way every reading assumes that the victim/recipient just blithely goes along with whatever the princess suggests.  Should the story be not just about what sort of fate the princess feels she should grant her beloved and the inner conflict of jealousy, but also how well the man knows the princess's personality?

I've never heard that assumption, even when I first encountered the story back in fifth grade.  The question has always been whether he can trust what she says, since she doesn't indicate which door she's guiding him towards.
Hmm...  I may have had an unimaginative teacher...



CryptoMe

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 1146
Reply #41 on: October 04, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
Meh!
I always thought the original story was written by an english teacher looking for an essay topic to torture kids with... More interesting as an idea to debate than as a story. I didn't think this rewrite really improved on that.

I'm with icegirl on this. Just because a piece of writing gets me thinking and debating, doesn't make it a story. Thinking and debating is great! But lots of things can get me doing that. When I'm listening to (or reading) a story, I don't want to have to make up half of it myself.



Talia

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
  • Muahahahaha
Reply #42 on: October 04, 2010, 06:01:13 PM
Meh!
I always thought the original story was written by an english teacher looking for an essay topic to torture kids with... More interesting as an idea to debate than as a story. I didn't think this rewrite really improved on that.

I'm with icegirl on this. Just because a piece of writing gets me thinking and debating, doesn't make it a story. Thinking and debating is great! But lots of things can get me doing that. When I'm listening to (or reading) a story, I don't want to have to make up half of it myself.

I'm assuming you meant "good" story. I'm pretty sure this was a story. :p



pvillegeek

  • Extern
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Reply #43 on: October 05, 2010, 10:59:11 PM
I liked the world building.  But i was a little confused what role "the tiger" played in the story.



yicheng

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
Reply #44 on: October 06, 2010, 08:43:13 PM
I didn't like this story.  I couldn't really relate to either character in the story.  While it had several interesting elements, people living on giant lizzards, global terrorism battling against biomass leaving a planet via space elevator, etc...  it really felt like the plot was contrived to artifice the supposed "lady and the tiger" situation that wasn't even close to the real story (as others have said).  I still don't get how the brother was a "tiger", instead of just a terrorist, since presumably he hasn't been modified like the Tigers of the story. 

I then started questioning the entire economic validity of exporting tons of live cattle off-world as a means of food.  Given the likelihood of advanced technology enabling hydroponics, genetic manipulation of domesticated animals & plants to grow in low-G, or running rotating space farms would make a more cost-effective solution than shipping beef to and fro entire worlds (and presumably solar systems).  Would you then have to recapture the waste material and transport it back down to the surface?  At best, it would a very expensive delicacy in space, meaning there probably wouldn't that much going off-world.  The only alternate explanation would be if the cattle were meant to be used as breeding stock to start ranches on other worlds.  I see a more likely market for raw materials (wood, stone), petroleum, and manufactured items (since factories would presumably be harder to build in space).

How exactly would giant lizzards even work anyway?  What would they eat? 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 08:48:54 PM by yicheng »



Talia

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
  • Muahahahaha
Reply #45 on: October 06, 2010, 08:48:43 PM
How exactly would giant lizzards even work anyway?  What would they eat? 

Maybe they're plant-lizards and get their food via photosynthesis?



yicheng

  • Matross
  • ****
  • Posts: 221
Reply #46 on: October 06, 2010, 09:54:31 PM
How exactly would giant lizzards even work anyway?  What would they eat? 

Maybe they're plant-lizards and get their food via photosynthesis?

*-lizards!!!!

Where * is

a) mushrooms
b) geo-thermal
c) uni-cellular bacterial
d) all of the above
e) none of the above

Seriously though...   there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.



Talia

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2682
  • Muahahahaha
Reply #47 on: October 07, 2010, 12:21:23 AM
How exactly would giant lizzards even work anyway?  What would they eat? 

Maybe they're plant-lizards and get their food via photosynthesis?

*-lizards!!!!

Where * is

a) mushrooms
b) geo-thermal
c) uni-cellular bacterial
d) all of the above
e) none of the above

Seriously though...   there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.

But wouldnt it be awesome if they did??

C'mon, just revel in giant lizard houses. Or whatever the hell they were. :P



kibitzer

  • Purveyor of Unsolicited Opinions
  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 2228
  • Kibitzer: A meddler who offers unwanted advice
Reply #48 on: October 07, 2010, 01:47:25 AM
...there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.

Can't let that one go without comment!! Plants want to walk around? I thought that was only triffids.


jrderego

  • Hipparch
  • ******
  • Posts: 687
  • Writer of Union Dues stories (among others)
    • J. R. DeRego - Writer
Reply #49 on: October 07, 2010, 01:51:58 AM
...there's a reason why photosynthetic plants don't usually walk around the earth, and it's not because they don't want to.

Can't let that one go without comment!! Plants want to walk around? I thought that was only triffids.

Against a blind man, I'd put my money on a triffid.

"Happiness consists of getting enough sleep." Robert A. Heinlein
Also, please buy my book - Escape Clause: A Union Dues Novel
http://www.encpress.com/EC.html