EP265: We are Ted Tuscadero for President

[Scattercat]

I don't tend to mention a lot of porn in my day-to-day conversations. 

Also, these are legal government clones, and the implication was that cloning was not something ordinary people had a lot of access to.  I'd imagine that underground clone-porn sites would have to be pretty underground in the same way that snuff films are currently pretty underground. 

Basically, I agree with you that this porn is a likely consequence of the technology existing, but I don't see why the story is flawed for not mentioning it.  The existence of cheap, free porn on the Internet is a huge consequence of that technology, but a story from back in the 1950's could have been about a hypothetical massive computer network and not be flawed for not dwelling on the idea of porn.  Hell, a modern story about the Internet and computers wouldn't be flawed for not mentioning porn.  Plus, right now we have Photoshop, which means that we can already see anyone we want spliced into a porn picture, and that hasn't exactly destroyed culture or had any real impact on anyone beyond skeevy people who really, really like celebrities.

[yicheng]

Scattercat, I'll admit that when I posted it earlier, I was posting mostly out of jest.  But I do stand by my criticism that if cloning was to become available there would be more far-reaching society consequences than seemed to be represented in the story.  A non-porn related impact would be that the entire judicial system would have to be rewritten around cloning.  Case in point: If I have another clone of myself, and I murder someone OJ-Simpson-style leaving plenty of DNA evidence for the CSI's to find, they'd never be able to convict me, because they can't prove definitively that it me and not the clone (nor vice versa).  In another example, every professional sports organization in the world would shell out millions of dollars for a chance to clone a Babe Ruth (or whoever), Michael Jordan, or Muhammad Ali.  How would that affect the popularity of sports as a whole?  For that matter, how many pop icons would be cloned overnight?  Michael Jackson?  Elvis?  Marilyn Monroe? 

[Scattercat]

Probably a lot.  Sounds like an awesome set of stories!

I still don't see why it's a flaw that this story, which focused on the use of clones by presidential candidates, is in any way at fault for not writing every possible story involving cheap magic-clone technology. 

Let me try another tack.  In Star Wars, there are very likely Force-sensitive people who don't become Jedi and use their powers to cheat at gambling and become criminal masterminds.  (In fact, such people have featured in the various spin-off products.)  Is Episode IV a bad movie because they didn't include one of those? 

This story was very much about the use of clones in the political arena, and in particular the experiences of one clone out of hundreds in one small town in the middle of nowhere, at a time when the cloning technology is still pretty expensive (at least to get the initial copy made.)  I can't get mad if the story's central premise has a lot of interesting and potentially cool implications; I'd be annoyed if they tried to fit all of that in, frankly.

[yicheng]

We may have to agree to disagree.  I'm not sure if using Star Wars really helped your cause, because they are enough plot wholes in that series to fly a Star Destroyer through.  Episode IV was actually one of the better Star Wars movies (probably because Lucas hadn't gone really really crazy yet), and in and of itself (before the whole Star Wars universe was ludicrously constructed with it's midichlorians and non-jedi force-sensitives), it was pretty much internally consistent.  After all, in that movie, for all we know Luke, Obi-Wan, and Vadar are the only Force-sensitives we know of.

As for the story, I have to say again that "expensive" doesn't imply "rare".  After all, Ferrari F430's are pretty expensive, but you still see one of two of them just driving around.  There are implications in the story itself that other candidates besides Tuscadero employ cloning tech, so at the very least, it's available to private citizens (presumably ones with lots of money).  And this means that more powerful private individuals (e.g. Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoc, etc) most definitely would have access to cloning, to say nothing of other countries and multi-nationals.  Imagine what a bored Saudi prince with a few extra $M lying around would buy himself for his birthday if he could clone anyone he wanted to.  Or what intelligence agency would do if they could clone anyone (say a foreign diplomat with top secret access to information and computer systems).  I don't expect the story to cover all of it in any great detail, but I simply think that plopping down Mayberry, USA, and saying "there's cloning, but everything else is exactly the same" is too much for me to swallow. 

I don't expect you to agree with me, nor do I expect you to suddenly hate the story because of what I said.  I actually found the characters fairly enjoyable, but the inconsistencies were too flagrant for me to get past.

BTW, I think Bruce Sterling's "Distraction" is a good book on a similar subject of politics in the future and genetic manipulation.

http://www.amazon.com/Distraction-Bruce-Sterling/dp/0553576399

[Balu]

Imagine what a bored Saudi prince with a few extra $M lying around would buy himself for his birthday if he could clone anyone he wanted to.

What an idea, and what a setting. Those guys aren't even supposed to drink.

[yicheng]

Imagine what a bored Saudi prince with a few extra $M lying around would buy himself for his birthday if he could clone anyone he wanted to.

What an idea, and what a setting. Those guys aren't even supposed to drink.

Wahhabi Arabs are not Saudi Princes.  You might want to do some research on Saudi history.  The excesses and "liberal" indulgences of the Saudi family are quite well-known, and are one of the main grievances of Islamic Fundamentalists.

And BTW, Jews aren't supposed to drive on Saturdays and eat Cheeseburgers but I'll bet you can more than few that do.  Technically Christians aren't supposed to that either, but that's a whole new can of worms.

[LaShawn]

Add me to the list of people who loved this story!

[Balu]

Wahhabi Arabs are not Saudi Princes.  You might want to do some research on Saudi history.  The excesses and "liberal" indulgences of the Saudi family are quite well-known, and are one of the main grievances of Islamic Fundamentalists.

And BTW, Jews aren't supposed to drive on Saturdays and eat Cheeseburgers but I'll bet you can more than few that do.  Technically Christians aren't supposed to that either, but that's a whole new can of worms.

Saudi Princes are Wahabi. At least technically.

Speaking of which I wonder if, given DNA from his heirs and the correct technology, one could use cloning techniques to produce a new Mohammed? And if so would he be able to hear God as well as in his first physical incarnation?

As for Jews eating cheeseburgers, they'll be sorry when the rapture xenovirus is deployed and only the non-cheeseburger eaters are left behind as the chosen people.

I mean really, what a bunch of schmucks! It isn't as if the aliens didn't warn them in good time.