Author Topic: EP267: Planetfall  (Read 35024 times)

Talia

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Reply #25 on: November 24, 2010, 03:49:44 AM
Galactic mass destruction is all well and good, but it doesn't really figure into the story.  You might as well talk about how "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" was about the war on account of it's the reason for the Pevensie children to be at the Professor's house.  None of the Pevensies seem to notice the war overmuch other than Edmund and Peter getting into it about who's going to be Dad while they're alone, and even that's more subtext than anything else.  Ditto here.  For all the time spent describing it, the main characters here don't act like refugees or asylum seekers.  They act like player characters in a game of Traveller whose GM is way too nice to them.  (They may be under the delusion so common to my players that Diplomacy/Persuade and associated skills are like mind control powers you don't have to pay character points for.)


Well, I disagree. The protagonist obviously finds the aliens' behavior towards the previous spacegoers repulsive; its only the severity of what he's been through - and the possible parallels with the aliens he's currently facing - that spurs him to make the decision that he does.



Scattercat

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Reply #26 on: November 24, 2010, 03:51:49 AM
He seems awfully gleeful about it afterwards...



Talia

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Reply #27 on: November 24, 2010, 04:01:09 AM
He seems awfully gleeful about it afterwards...

I don't read it as glee. I read it as a certain bitter satisfaction.

But that just suggests the ending is highly subjective.


(Edit: Having the full text of the stories so easily available now is incredibly awesome for reference purposes. )



Schreiber

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Reply #28 on: November 24, 2010, 03:52:57 PM
I don't read it as glee. I read it as a certain bitter satisfaction.

I agree, and I was kind of satisfied for him. The Lobans' dedication to capitalism and free markets in lieu of basic empathy -and the consequences thereof- really struck a chord with me.



zoanon

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Reply #29 on: November 25, 2010, 11:20:54 PM
I agree that there were a few fumbly bits. Like, why the hell would the protags spill the beans on their whole galactic war to a complete(!!!) stranger? It's somewhat hinted at that their civilization is a bit more mutualistic and perhaps even inherently altruistic, but... yeeeah.

I assume that  the "protag" was trying to get a bit of empathy from the other.



mclea

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Reply #30 on: November 27, 2010, 12:54:51 AM
Author here.  Wow, tough crowd!

Thank you for taking the time to listen and/or read and respond to "Planetfall."  I appreciate all the feedback, positive and negative.

I didn't have anything to do with the production of the podcast itself, of course, but I can't join those of you who were critical of the reading.  I thought it was well done, particularly the parts that were in computer code, which in all honesty I would not have known how to do if I were the reader.  The only thing I noticed is that the last line is not quite right -- it's supposed to be "Why would we want more competitors?" -- which is important because it's supposed to mirror the Loban's earlier comments exactly.

I also can't offer any help to those who didn't like the fantasy elements -- just not the story for you, I suppose.  I never knew how to classify it, myself.  I'm pleased that Escape Pod felt it was science-fictional enough for them to produce.

A few misunderstandings to which I cannot help but respond (I hope this is not bad form):

-- The protagonist (Galthas) is definitely not meant to be exhibiting glee at his final decision!  Weary resignation is closer to what I was going for, with a great deal of sadness that ensuring his own racial survival may make him as ruthless as his enemies.  

-- I'm not sure what made anyone think the entire Loban race was on the single exploration ship in the story.  That's certainly not why Galthas did not expect any followers to come to avenge them.  If you consult the text, there's a point where Galthas asks the Loban if more of his people are coming.  The Loban replies that they are not; their location is a "secret of much seriousness" because in seeking resources, as in all things, they were competing with the other Lobans.

-- The Lobans didn’t run afoul of the sourcewell and meet their fate through blundering or sheer stupidity.  They cruised into it because Galthas told them that cruising into it would reveal the secret of his technology.  I suppose I should have presented the full exchange, but it felt like spoon-feeding when (I thought) the results spoke for themselves.  You could argue that trusting him was stupid, I suppose…

-- I’m pleased that many of you found the world-building to be satisfying, and sad that some also found that the plot was not.  Ironically, this was not a case of my inventing a weak plot to explicate a carefully mapped-out world.  I actually came up with the plot first and built the world as I went along.  This story was written quickly, under tight deadline constraints.  Working under pressure can produce strange and sometimes wonderful results.  I was pleased with this one.

A few people noted that this seemed like a good beginning for a novel, or that the world merited further exploration.  Those of you who enjoyed the story may be pleased to know that a “Planetfall” novel is indeed in the works (although that was not my intent when I originally wrote the story).  It’s currently planned to take place before the main action in the short story, telling the tale of the Zayeen-Ashterite war as it happens.  

Sorry to go on so long; it’s my first appearance here, so I am excited.  I hope that those of you who liked it and are interested in more of my work will look me up on Facebook or watch for the two anthologies I’m editing, LIMINALITY and BETA CITY.

Thanks again for all the comments.  Intelligent criticism is priceless.

All the Best,

Michael C. Lea
Liminality:  http://duotrope.com/market_5136.aspx
Beta City:  http://betacity.weebly.com



eytanz

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Reply #31 on: November 27, 2010, 01:00:22 AM
Hello! Authors are always welcome in the forums, and if you want to post your thoughts on the story - whether your original thoughts while writing or responses to what people here said - that's quite welcome too. Just don't be surprised if some people choose to continue arguing :)




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Reply #32 on: November 27, 2010, 01:03:17 AM
Hello! Authors are always welcome in the forums, and if you want to post your thoughts on the story - whether your original thoughts while writing or responses to what people here said - that's quite welcome too. Just don't be surprised if some people choose to continue arguing :)

Yeah, the prevailing attitude here seems to be "whatever, you're just the author, what the hell do you know?"  :P

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Scattercat

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Reply #33 on: November 27, 2010, 03:57:49 AM
I maintain that, upon meeting a new race and greeting them as "competitors," when they tell you, "Oh, hey, if you fly your ship right into the middle of that enormous glowing source of unknown radiation," that you'd have to be pretty stupid that *none* of your crew said, "Uh, captain, this, uh, maybe we should take some more readings first?"

I mean, if it's powerful enough to disintegrate a ship, then it HAS to be putting out SOMETHING they can monitor.  If I'd never encountered, say, an electric stove, and I met some dude in an empty kitchen where we were both scrounging for snacks, and he told me, "Oh, hey, you know my secret trick for finding the best chips?  Just press your face against that glowing red circle," I'd at least test it with a finger first before going whole-hog into it.

ETA: Chrono Trigger is awesomesauce.  Lavos is a parasite that crash-lands on the planet 65 million years in the past, and about 1000 years in the future will break out and launch its spawn out into the universe, destroying the planet in the process.  Same dealie as the thing in the story, basically, except Lavos, while large, is relatively small compared to the planet it eats.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 04:06:17 AM by Scattercat »



deflective

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Reply #34 on: November 27, 2010, 05:02:22 AM
-- The Lobans didn’t run afoul of the sourcewell and meet their fate through blundering or sheer stupidity.  They cruised into it because Galthas told them that cruising into it would reveal the secret of his technology.  I suppose I should have presented the full exchange, but it felt like spoon-feeding when (I thought) the results spoke for themselves.  You could argue that trusting him was stupid, I suppose…

it feels weird to contradict an author on their own work, but you covered this early in the story:
Quote
He sat at the very edge of the grassy clearing, and came no closer to the well itself. Any sentient being who strayed too close would be entranced, drawn irresistibly into the Source to be annihilated.

all he needed to do is send them into the vicinity.  any probes sent to scout were non-sentient and wouldn't reveal this property of the fountain.

it would have made sense for the aliens to send a small advance team to investigate before moving the main ship so close to an unknown phenomenon but there could be many reasons why they didn't.  i didn't have any problem with this part of the story.



eytanz

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Reply #35 on: November 27, 2010, 10:43:03 AM
Yeah, I'm with Deflective - I thought the ending just meant that Galthas told the Lobans "we use the sources to power our technology, here's the nearest one", and let them approach it (and be drawn into it). I didn't think he told them "fly into it", nor was there any need for him too, since it was established that the source could do that on its own.

An interesting question for me was - were the Asherites and Zayeen human? The story used the word "human" at one point, and the two societies seem to be in line with possible human societies, but of course, if they are descendent from us, then presumably they also developed space faring technology first and discovered the sources later (since we don't seem to have one on Earth, and our technology seems far more in line with the Lobans than with the Asherites/Zayeen).

My guess - they are human, the two societies remnants of colonies, but they have forgotten their origins and assumed they had always had the life magic based technology.

Or, maybe we are the descendants of a colony that forgot its magic technology based past (since we don't have a source) and have proceeded along the Loban-like path.

Anyway, as perhaps my line of speculation shows, I was also a bit more intrigued by the world building than by the story - not that the story was bad, but it was relatively straightforward, while the world building has so many possibilities.



zoanon

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Reply #36 on: November 27, 2010, 05:20:25 PM
I don't really want to jump into this debate, but I LOVED this story.
for me magic is just manipulation of energy *with science*



mclea

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Reply #37 on: November 27, 2010, 07:33:41 PM
No debate to jump into, really.  Deflective and Eytanz are absolutely right, except about contradicting me; we're all on the same page.  I was perhaps a bit unclear in my comments.  A few posters seemed to have the impression that the Lobans just blundered into the sourcewell on their own once the camouflage was removed.  I was distinguishing between that, and Galthas directing them to it.  When I said "cruising into it" in my post, I was referring to Galthas sending them cruising into the clearing, and once they got close, that was it.

Scattercat, your point is well taken about sending in probes, etc.  The sourcewell was meant to have an effect like a tech-magic black hole -- once you get close enough to really get any readings on it, it's got a grip on you and there's no escape.  Probes or at least scouts would have been wise.  In my mind (although I acknowledge this is not in the text), the Lobans were greedy and so eager to get to the new resource first that they charged ahead.  I imagine the result would be the same either way, unless they got really lucky -- they would have approached before launching their probes, and with absolutely no knowledge of the "danger zone," probably ended up too close anyway.

But they're aliens, with alien thought processes.  The whole idea was that things that seem really obvious to one species, won't to another.  So who knows what they were thinking?  Maybe they never probe anything first, even though it seems like the height of common sense to us humans.  If you found yourself thinking, "Surely a spacefaring race wouldn't do that," well, Galthas was thinking the same thing.

Interesting question, Eytanz, about the Ashterites being human -- they're certainly very human-like.  I wasn't aware of using the word "human" in the story, and couldn't find it in a quick search, so I can't comment on why I used the term.  My initial conception didn't include any link to Earth or humanity or even anything recognizable as our universe.  But it's certainly something to think about.

Zoanon, thank you so much for your comments!  Well said, vis-a-vis magic and science.  There's more to come from the Planetfall-verse;  I hope those of you who enjoyed this offering keep an eye out for it.



eytanz

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Reply #38 on: November 27, 2010, 07:51:51 PM
Interesting question, Eytanz, about the Ashterites being human -- they're certainly very human-like.  I wasn't aware of using the word "human" in the story, and couldn't find it in a quick search, so I can't comment on why I used the term.  My initial conception didn't include any link to Earth or humanity or even anything recognizable as our universe.  But it's certainly something to think about.

Weird - I was *sure* I heard the word human, but looking at the text, I see it's not there. You do refer to both Asherites as "men" in several places, though, maybe that's what I was remembering.



Scattercat

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Reply #39 on: November 28, 2010, 12:02:23 AM
Scattercat, your point is well taken about sending in probes, etc.  The sourcewell was meant to have an effect like a tech-magic black hole -- once you get close enough to really get any readings on it, it's got a grip on you and there's no escape. 

Oh, I'm sure there's an explanation.  I wasn't objecting to the idea that a situation might exist that would lead someone to drive their entire spaceship into a black hole.  However, "They're alien, so who knows why they did something that seems stupid" isn't really an answer.  The story isn't about the incomprehensibility of aliens, so tossing that into the mix (and not addressing it directly) doesn't really solve the problem that it makes no sense for an intelligent and apparently highly competitive race to somehow lack the common sense to send probes or scouts first, based solely on advice from an admitted potential rival.  We, the audience, are all humans, and characters' motivations should be comprehensible to us unless the whole point of the story is the incomprehensibility.  I can understand (though not empathize with) the Lobans' decision not to assist the other ship and leave them to freeze/starve.  I can't understand why that hard-bitten competitive edge went out the window for the ending.  I might guess that it was the greed thing, but since that's not actually in the story, it feels confusing and incomplete. 

I like being left to imagine world details or the implications of a revelation; I don't care much for being required to come up with the mental contortions necessary to justify odd character actions.  In the real world, one has to be either unusually greedy or both greedy and rather dim to fall for such a dodge as this; unless a character is established as having the necessary traits, it feels cheaty to me to have them suddenly be so in order for the ending to happen.  Almost an Idiot Ball moment. 

Overall, I liked the world-building.  I just wish that the Lobans had been better characterized as believable dupes in order to lead to their final end.  (Or that the extremity of the black-hole effect had been more thoroughly explained, even if that took a little "As You Know, Bob," dialogue after the fact.)



mclea

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Reply #40 on: November 28, 2010, 04:36:07 AM
Scattercat:  Noted, and well said.  I disagree with your statement that the story is not about the incomprehensibility of aliens; I agree that it's not the only topic, or even the main one.  But encountering an alien race whose approach to the world is truly alien was something I tried to touch on.  That you didn't feel that as a reader is my failure, of course, not yours.  We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.  I've said my piece, anyway.

Everyone:  If you enjoyed the story, or even if you didn't, and you'd like to get a chance to read the novelization as I work through it, please PM me your email address and I will get in touch with you.  I'm looking for readers to provide honest feedback and help me perfect the manuscript.  I'm grateful for any input you can provide.

Thanks again to all who took the time to post their comments.  Writing is too often a solitary pursuit, with little or no chance to see what's working (or not) until it's too late.  I wrote "Planetfall" over two years ago, and it's been a delight to revisit it with you.

--MCL



The Far Stairs

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Reply #41 on: November 28, 2010, 09:36:39 PM
I loved the story! I agree that the mesmerizing qualities of the sourcewell adequately explained (for me) why the Loban got drawn into it. But even if that explanation hadn't been there, it still wouldn't have bothered me too much. People tricking other people into meeting their doom is a theme as old as storytelling, and it always requires a little bit of disbelief suspension on the part of the audience. Would anyone really be that gullible? Maybe they would and maybe they wouldn't. But it makes a better story to say that they were. Think of it this way: if the story had been written by Asimov or Niven, would the Loban still have met their end in the same unsuspecting fashion? Sure they would! That kind of quasi-absurd comeuppance is just too much fun to resist.

Also, let's not forget the other things the story had going for it: enchanted demon tech, aliens with reality-warping powers, and giant space worms that eat planets!

Jesse Livingston
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ElectricPaladin

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Reply #42 on: November 29, 2010, 01:53:53 AM
I really loved this one. There seems to be a lack of straight up, out there space opera on Escape Pod. I'm with Norm on this one: you cannot go wrong when your story is about thaumaturgical lizardmen with railguns whose homeworld has been eaten by giant space dragons. What I loved most about Planetfall, however, is that it was actually much deeper than that.

For me, Planetfall was the story of a loss of innocence. On one level, Galthas abandoned his ideals to destroy the Loban scout ship. On another, the Ashterites have lost their innocence. Having been betrayed so vilely by another race and lost something so precious as their homeworld, they will surely never be the same. I am extremely curious to see where this universe could go. My mind spins with the complications that could arise from the Ahsterites and their desperate struggle to survive. Galthas's "weary resignation" at this situation was key to my enjoyment of this theme. I love it when characters are forced to make questionable choices, but retain enough self-awareness to look upon their own choices and despair. That and its complementary moments - when a character finally loses that self awareness and when that self-awareness kindles into a redeeming conflagration of ethical action - are probably some of my favorite themes in fiction.

As I implied above, I also really enjoyed the setting. High weird space opera doesn't get a lot of attention these days. I liked the fantasy elements mixed in with the overall science fiction motifs. However, I found myself assuming that by "imp," "demon," "fae" and the like the Ashterites actually meant quasi-material creatures that occupied similar places in their myths (or were similar enough to those creatures that the Ashterites had given them the same name).

That said...

The one thing I didn't like about the story was probably the way that it almost seemed like a setup for a real time strategy game. So, the Loban return. And the Zayin catch up with the Ashterites. And now they can compete for sourcewells, upgrade their technology, build units, and do battle. In the grim dark future. I don't know if this is because real time strategy games have colonized and oppressed key portions of the author's brain or because that's happened to my brain.

This is a pretty small nit-pick, and I'll be honest that I don't know what else the author should have done with the same (or similar) setting and story to make it feel less like a RTS game, so it might be unsolvable.

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kibitzer

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Reply #43 on: November 29, 2010, 02:16:12 AM
It's always awesome when the author shows up (hi @mclea). Not sure the attitude here is "you're just the author what do you know?", I'd say it's more "Heya! Welcome! How's about we dissect your story?"

The reading was a little too fast. The reader's voice itself is fine for narration, but something like this with lots of techno-speak (oops, almost said technobabble!), unfamiliar names and switching between past and present, needs to be a little slower so listeners have time to process what they're hearing. I re-wound the story at maybe five or six points because I couldn't keep up with the flow of words. (Mind you, I am creeping toward decrepitude).

Seemed to end suddenly.

Also, what the frak about all the baby lizard godlings?? How're they gonna escape from them??

Edit: Gonna have to chase up Chrono Trigger...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 02:17:47 AM by kibitzer »



kingNOR

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Reply #44 on: November 29, 2010, 04:32:10 AM
I liked the "stuff" in this story.  The fantasy take on the usual Sci-Fi gear of the protagonists was pretty cool.  I thought the space godzilla thing was awesome.  I just couldn't quite get into the back and fourth with the two guys and the three legged thing. 

I feel like I only got to scratch the surface of a very interesting world, the story itself is maybe just a little too low key and mundane to work as an introduction to that world.



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Reply #45 on: November 29, 2010, 03:07:30 PM
Author here.  Wow, tough crowd!
 

Hello and welcome!  I enjoy when the author stops by to comment.  :)  I know what you mean about tough crowd--I've been there.   :)

-- I'm not sure what made anyone think the entire Loban race was on the single exploration ship in the story.  That's certainly not why Galthas did not expect any followers to come to avenge them.  If you consult the text, there's a point where Galthas asks the Loban if more of his people are coming.  The Loban replies that they are not; their location is a "secret of much seriousness" because in seeking resources, as in all things, they were competing with the other Lobans.

I thought that was clear from the story.  The Loban ship does not communicate with other Loban ships because that would undermine their competitive goals by revealing the resources that they have found.  This makes them less difficult to deal with than many alien races, because you can dispatch each individual ship without worrying about retaliation from the race as a whole.  And since this trick worked so easily on this ship, and the ship did not tell other ships, you could theoretically use the SAME trick on any Lobans who happened to go cruising by.  "Hey look, resources!" 

I do agree with scattercat though that I'm still skeptical of the Lobans destroying themselves in that manner.  Their race's sole differentiating characteristic is the fact that they are governed by competition, and so they should be wary of what a competitor says to them.  A probe would be great if they have probes, but at the very least they ought to toss a rock or a tree in and see if it gets crushed or vaporized.

It's always awesome when the author shows up (hi @mclea). Not sure the attitude here is "you're just the author what do you know?", I'd say it's more "Heya! Welcome! How's about we dissect your story?"

The way I took that comment is that some (including me) have expressed the idea that what I as a reader consider my interpretation of a story from its text to be equally valid than what the author intended the story to mean.  That doesn't mean that the author's intent or feelings are dismissed, only that if the author says the story was supposed to convey something that I didn't glean from the text, I am comfortable saying "That's not how I read the story" and consider my interpretation to be equally valid.  :)



wakela

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Reply #46 on: November 30, 2010, 01:40:30 AM
Liked it, though I can't really argue with the above criticisms.  You have two super-powerupped combat guys who do nothing but stand around in a forest talking and remembering.  It might have been interesting if they had been frail and relied only on their cleverness to get rid of the Loban.  

To put in my 2 cents, I thought that since the Loban were not familiar with magic-based technology, their scans may not pick anything dangerous up regarding the power node.  Like if I tried to film a ghost with a camcorder.  Though Scattercat (as usual) makes good points.  It might have been an interesting to show our buddies trying to convince a suspicious Loban to fly the ship in there or use some magic-tech trick.  

For the record, I thought that the Loban might be descended from humans, since they used traditional technology instead of magic.

Like other posters, I liked the imagery and world-building.  I actually didn't mind the reading speed.  I thought of it as one of those stories that I'm not supposed to keep up with 100%.  

I had a question for the author, though it looks like I missed him.  The bad guy killer aliens were described as violent, intolerant religious zealots.  The Loban were purely market-driven, hyper competitive sociopaths.  I saw parallels between these and real word organizations.  Was that intentional?



mclea

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Reply #47 on: November 30, 2010, 03:02:18 AM
I'm still checking in when I can, Wakela.  I didn't have plans to post again, but since you had a question I'll try to cover everything...

RE: 2 superpowerupped combat guys who stand around and talk...
Well, I hate to disappoint a reader, but I think I may be caught in a no-win situation here.  This was hardly a story lacking in violence or destruction, even if most of it was in flashback.  And  I suspect that if I'd had the two superpowerupped guys wading into battle for most of the time, I'm sure someone would object to my failing to defy expectations by having them only do the obvious.  I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the story is what I intended it to be in this respect, but I'm sorry you were disappointed.  Regarding the general impression that there's a lot of world-building that "goes unused," I always enjoyed stories where the universe feels bigger than the plot of the story.  I think it was one of the things that made Star Wars a success, and I always liked how the world of China Mieville's Bas-Lag/New Crobuzon books always seemed full to bursting.

RE: The sourcewell, and flying into it
Wakela is right on target for the impression I wanted to make.  The Lobans had never seen sourcewells; their technology ran on more familiar (to us) principles.  Like I said earlier, I thought of it as a black hole -- something perceptible enough make you curious, but if you had no idea what it was, even getting close enough to find out would probably get you killed.  In retrospect, this would have been clearer if I had made the sourcewell less of a visual phenomenon, or if I had not had the Lobans realize that it was a source of "great power" -- instead, just a curious anomaly.

RE:  Parallels with real-world organizations
Yes and no.  I wasn't targeting any specific organization or group with either.  That said, the story was informed by real-world events and how I was feeling about them at the time.  The assignment was to come up with a story about people having to flee their homeworld.  For that, I thought back to 9/11, and the feeling of lost innocence and probably worse to come in order for us to feel safe.  And the reason for the Zayeen crusade -- continued presence of Ashterites on their holy ground -- was directly inspired by the similar motivations behind the formation of al-Qaeda (continued American military presence near Saudi holy places).  That said, neither is meant to be an exact parallel; the Zayeen are not al-Qaeda and the Ashterites are not Americans.  I only borrowed pieces of real-world events and used them as part of a story about a much simpler conflict.  Also, I wrote this story in November 2008.  Dominating the news at the time were collapsing banks and speculation that this was the end of Alan Greenspan/Ayn Rand style laissez-faire capitalism.  That was what inspired the Loban philosophy -- a straightforward creed that works well, but like most, falls apart when taken to extremes.  Am I saying that Alan Greenspan should be incinerated in an otherworldly column of light?  No, I am not.  Again, just taking real-world bits and working them into a framework with far fewer shades of grey than the real world.  So please don't take this as an invitation to argue about capitalism or 9/11 or what-have-you; I won't engage on any of that, except as it pertains directly to this piece of fiction.

RE: "What do you know?  You're just the author!"
Please, no one worry about this.  Your viewpoints as readers are actually far more important than what I have in my head while I'm typing.  My goal is to write things that others will enjoy; if I only wrote for myself, I wouldn't seek publication.  And only you folks can tell me what happens in a reader's head when they read (or in this case, hear) the story.



eytanz

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Reply #48 on: November 30, 2010, 08:02:50 AM
Liked it, though I can't really argue with the above criticisms.  You have two super-powerupped combat guys who do nothing but stand around in a forest talking and remembering.  It might have been interesting if they had been frail and relied only on their cleverness to get rid of the Loban.  


I thought that was a plus, actually, not a negative - sure, they have a lot of superpowers, but those are superpowers that quite clearly their society had had for ages. And what good did it do to them? They start out as a straightforward warrior/mage pairing, ready to engage their enemies straight on, but that's not how the universe is. This is is a story about a paradigm shift in their thinking - it's not "people end up using their brains to solve a problem", it's "people going against their nature to solve a problem" - their super combat/magic abilities being ultimately unused serves to highlight that.



eytanz

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Reply #49 on: November 30, 2010, 09:37:51 AM
The Chrono Trigger discussion has been split off to its own thread: http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=4564.0