Author Topic: PC134: Corinthians  (Read 26705 times)

Schreiber

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Reply #25 on: December 13, 2010, 06:48:03 PM
I wonder what the author would say.

I knew this story would rankle some feathers, but I didn't imagine that the 2nd Person narrative would be the most universally controversial part.

If you're interested in reading stories that do fun and challenging things with this device, I would recommend Lorrie Moore's "How to Be Another Woman," Pam Houston's "How to Talk to a Hunter" and Junot Diaz's "How to Date A Brown Girl." They've all been anthologized or collected and you can find Diaz reading his story on the New Yorker Fiction podcast and Houston's story in the archives of PRI: Selected Shorts.


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Reply #26 on: December 13, 2010, 08:49:04 PM
I wonder what the author would say.

I knew this story would rankle some feathers, but I didn't imagine that the 2nd Person narrative would be the most universally controversial part.

If you're interested in reading stories that do fun and challenging things with this device, I would recommend Lorrie Moore's "How to Be Another Woman," Pam Houston's "How to Talk to a Hunter" and Junot Diaz's "How to Date A Brown Girl." They've all been anthologized or collected and you can find Diaz reading his story on the New Yorker Fiction podcast and Houston's story in the archives of PRI: Selected Shorts.


And I'm out.

I've read other stories with 2nd person, and I've always found it distracting.  I doubt those 3 stories would be any different, and the fact that they are in 2nd makes me slightly less interested in reading them.  I'm still interested in your take on why you chose 2nd, if you feel like sharing...

For what it's worth, it takes more than blasphemy to ruffle my feathers, especially when done humorously.  I have a very broad sense of humor when it comes to religion.



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Reply #27 on: December 13, 2010, 08:55:35 PM
I took the use of second person as a bit of a riff on the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God.  God can speak in the second person if He wants, after all, and there's not much anyone can do to gainsay Him.  By definition, God is right about you.

Even in that light, the choice of 2nd makes no sense to me.  God certainly CAN tell my story in 2nd person, but:
1.  What would the point be?  I remember what I have done and do not need to be told what I have done.  2nd person future tense might be short for a while, because God presumably knows what I WILL do while I can't see the future.
2.  If God meant to tell me my story, he got it wrong.  Cuz I didn't do any of this stuff, I'm not a theologian, I'm not a woman, and I have never dated God.

Yup, still doesn't make sense to me.  It's still one of the better ones I heard, as it only bothered me a little.  It didn't make the story unenjoyable, I just have yet to understand the point of choosing 2nd person, and it always makes me curious if there was actually a purpose to the choice, or if it's just to see if one can pull it off.



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Reply #28 on: December 14, 2010, 03:13:32 PM
So, I'm going to come clean and say that this story really resonated with me, because that's kind of my story. In college I was totally going to be a rabbi and I had a totally intense, personal relationship with God and mysticism. I literally prayed every day, and not because I went to some kind of service every day, because I would make up prayers on the spot for whatever I needed. I had friends who used to greet me with cries of "Reb Mark!" and tell me what an awesome rabbi I was going to be.

Now, in Jewish mysticism we actually have a concept of God as male and female, with a female aspect, so I won't say I'm exactly like the rabbinic student i the story... but except for the accent and the sexuality, he really reminded me of myself, too. I used to love to argue talk about that sort of stuff, at great length, with whoever would listen. I still do, actually.

So there I am in college, with this deep and personal relationship with God and faith and mysticism... and then I hit a really bad patch of sub-clinical depression. At the time, I just thought it was a funk - and maybe there's no difference between a bad funk and sub-clinical depression, but it helps to think of it that way now - but now I see that it really was one of the harder times of my life. And my faith helps me through it. And then my favorite uncle dies, and my faith helps me through it. And my parents get crazier and crazier, and my faith helps me through it. And I graduate and apply to rabbinic school...

And I'm rejected.

It's not a "door closed in your face" rejection, but it is a "you are totally not ready for this commitment - go away and grow up a bit, kid" kind of rejection. It really stings. And suddenly I realize that what I thought was "faith" was also - in addition to really being faith - a crutch that I was using to avoid engaging with fear and pain (as opposed to using it to help me deal with fear and pain - not knocking faith here, just how I was using it), and that my "calling" was actually anxiety about what I wanted to do when I grew up masquerading as certainty.

Fast forward five years later, and I'm teaching science (wtf, I know) in an inner city middle school. I still feel like I'm doing good work - tikkun olam is real and alive for me - but I've lost that close personal connection. I can get the feeling that God and I went from lovers to friends, and sometimes I miss that burning, intense, closeness to the divine. I think that, knowing I have the capacity for it, it will come back if I ever need it or decide to pursue it. I still miss it, though.

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Reply #29 on: December 16, 2010, 12:16:38 AM
Sure, Corinthains and you dated.  In fact, you sought her out, choosing her before Escape Pod or Radio lab.  I mean, she's totally your type - you can't love philosophy and bureaucracy as much as you do and not be into Judeo-Christain pastiche.  Inferno, P.L., You're still on a first name basis with many of them.   Mmmm Screwtape still gives you chills.

But almost as soon as the relationship began, you knew it wasn't going to amount to much.  Sure, Corinthians said she was a story, but you could quickly tell she was just a thesis putting on aires.  There were no quirks you could fall in love with, or narrative twists to keep you warm at night.  

There was one moment though - a spark that gave you hope for a bit.  An angel was complaining about Free Will.  Now here was something more than a simple breakup with special names...but then it was gone, never to return.

Sure, you fastforwarded a bit.  At first a few seconds, but then minutes at a time.  But you don't feel guilty  You knoe you'd never FF a real story.   But a mere thesis?  It's not like she was going to surprise you or anything.

So long story short, you're back on the market.  In fact, you're sufficiently unsated you may just commit to a Giant for a while!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 03:19:08 PM by Sarcastro »



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Reply #30 on: December 16, 2010, 03:37:46 AM
Sure, Corinthains and you dated.  In fact, you sought her out, choosing her before Escape Pod or Radio lab.  I mean, she's totally your type - you can't love philosophy and bureaucracy as much as you do and not be into Judeo-Christain pastiche.  Inferno, P.L., You're still on a first name basis with many of them.   Mmmm Screwtape still gives you chills.

But almost as soon as the relationship began, you knew it wasn't going to amount to much.  Sure, Corinthians said he was a story, but you could quickly tell she was just a thesis putting on aires.  There were no quirks you could fall in love with, or narrative twists to keep you warm at night.  

There was one moment though - a spark that gave you hope for a bit.  An angel was complaining about Free Will.  Now here was something more than a simple breakup with special names...but then it was gone, never to return.

Sure, you fastforwarded a bit.  At first a few seconds, but then minutes at a time.  But you don't feel guilty  You knoe you'd never FF a real story.   But a mere thesis?  It's not like she was going to surprise you or anything.

So long story short, you're back on the market.  In fact, you're sufficiently unsated you may just commit to a Giant for a while!
Comment style win! ;D



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Reply #31 on: December 20, 2010, 12:45:50 PM
The message I took away from this story was simple and made a lot of sense to me: God loves you. But He's not *in love* with you.




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Reply #32 on: December 20, 2010, 03:25:36 PM
Sure, Corinthains and you dated.  In fact, you sought her out, choosing her before Escape Pod or Radio lab.  I mean, she's totally your type - you can't love philosophy and bureaucracy as much as you do and not be into Judeo-Christain pastiche.  Inferno, P.L., You're still on a first name basis with many of them.   Mmmm Screwtape still gives you chills.

But almost as soon as the relationship began, you knew it wasn't going to amount to much.  Sure, Corinthians said she was a story, but you could quickly tell she was just a thesis putting on aires.  There were no quirks you could fall in love with, or narrative twists to keep you warm at night.  

There was one moment though - a spark that gave you hope for a bit.  An angel was complaining about Free Will.  Now here was something more than a simple breakup with special names...but then it was gone, never to return.

Sure, you fastforwarded a bit.  At first a few seconds, but then minutes at a time.  But you don't feel guilty  You knoe you'd never FF a real story.   But a mere thesis?  It's not like she was going to surprise you or anything.

So long story short, you're back on the market.  In fact, you're sufficiently unsated you may just commit to a Giant for a while!

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Reply #33 on: December 22, 2010, 12:02:30 AM
I don't know...somehow I don't picture The Dude when I think of God.

For some reason, I think of Wilford Brimley....

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Reply #34 on: December 22, 2010, 03:21:06 AM
For some reason, I think of Wilford Brimley....

It's the mustache.  There is power in the 'stache.



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Reply #35 on: December 22, 2010, 08:10:31 PM
I kept on waiting for this story to get better, do something, anything, but in the end I found this one un-redeemably annoying.  I consider myself an Agnostic-leaning Buddhist, and I've always found the idea of a personal omnipotent deity to be paradoxical.  I've always thought that if there was a Supreme Being, it would be a kind of Omnipotent Grand Architect, rather than something that was like you but only more powerful. 

To me, it just seemed like this story started with a dead horse and kept on beating it, and beating it, and beating it, and then beat it some more.  It felt like I was supposed to identify with this in a way that I never could.  It was like this when I watched "A Serious Man".  People swore up and down that it was this totally profound movie about God or something, but I just held my hands up when the movie ended like "WTF was that even about?".

So, I don't really get it.  I guess if you're a theist, or a recovering theist, maybe this story was like a metaphor for you in some way.  But I'm just like  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???



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Reply #36 on: December 23, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
I'm currently listening to Dave's intro. I just want to say: THIS. ::nods head::

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Reply #37 on: December 23, 2010, 07:27:16 PM
All right. Just finished listening to the story, and I have to say, as a Christian, I was severely, severely disappointed at the use of 1st Corinthians in this story. That happens to be my favorite passage in the Bible and listening to it as it was narrated was just wrong. Absolutely wrong.
 
Look, if she's going to do a mad drunken rant spouting of 1st Christians 13, she justs can't rattle off "Love never fails," just ever so glibly, like an afterthought. Come on. She's been dumped. By *GOD*. She needs to get up all in his face and belt out the first part of verse 8 like a good hard blow to the solar plexus "LOOOOOVE NEVER FAIIIIIIIILS, YA G******* D******** B*******!!!!"
 
Well, okay, without the last part. don't want to make it any more blaphemous.
 
Oh, how I love this story. I have a brother in law who's in seminary who I know will love this story. My Dean of Theological Studies father in law will love this story. My mother will not. It has so much seminary humor it makes my head spin. I remember reading in college books that stressed putting emphasis on having a relationship with God over dating relationships. There was just one problem--There wasn't any *physical* side of God to speak of. There was no arms to wrap around you. No coming home to him with a cup of hot cocoa and a peck on the cheek. I really wanted that physical part of a relationship, you know.
 
I won't bore you with how it stretched and honed my spiritual life, but I liked how this story reflected that part of myself. I also liked how in the end, she had moved on, but hadn't regretted and became a stronger person for it. Great story, great reading, and absolutely the best use of a Bible passage (though again, I'm saddened that no emphasis was placed on the love-never-fails bit. So bitter...). And yes, I agree. Paul does scare me sometimes too.

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Reply #38 on: December 24, 2010, 01:26:05 AM
I have to say I consider myself pretty much a fundamentalist at least in some areas but this didn't really offend me at all, other than God dumping her (and the whole sex outside of marriage thing we need not get into) the characterization of God seemed pretty good.  And sometimes it really can feel like God has abandoned you even though latter you can usually see he was there all along.

Any hoo I mostly wanted to say I didn't even notice it was in 2nd person until I read the comments on the forum.  Apparently it totally worked for me.  Possibly if I had been reading it it would have distracted me but listening the story just flowed over me, good work!



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Reply #39 on: December 26, 2010, 12:51:25 AM
I loved this story. Maybe my brain was just hard wired for it, but the theology in it scratches the parts of my brain i want it to scratch, i found the use of the 2nd person fantastic -- it doesn't bother me when it's done well, and for me, this is done well -- and i found it hilarious and illuminating in turns.



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Reply #40 on: December 28, 2010, 05:43:08 PM
It was like this when I watched "A Serious Man".  People swore up and down that it was this totally profound movie about God or something, but I just held my hands up when the movie ended like "WTF was that even about?".

"A Serious Man" was profound?  Well I totally didn't get it.  Nevertheless, I loved that movie.  I had the same "WTF was that even about?" reaction, but I enjoyed that.  I still have no idea what it's about, but that's life sometimes.  I don't want every movie to give me that reaction, but every once in a while it's fine (and usually happens in Coen Brothers movies).  To me, what makes the movie remarkable was that it managed to be SIMULTANEOUSLY laugh out loud hilarious and terribly depressing.  I don't know how they managed that juxtaposition, but I loved it.

(I saw this movie just before listening to Podcastle's "Dybbuk in a Bottle", so it ruined that story for me, seeing as how the Dybbuk in the PC story did not match any characteristics of Dybbuks, being pretty much a djinn with a different name)



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Reply #41 on: December 28, 2010, 10:12:01 PM
The message I took away from this story was simple and made a lot of sense to me: God loves you. But He's not *in love* with you.

Very succinct.

I for one enjoyed listening to the story, though the physical descriptions of God and the way the MC liked him "just the way he is" reminded me of a Dumbledore/Hermione fanfic I read many years ago (before book 6 came out). I didn't like the MC at all, not from the start, because after a couple of minutes I knew exactly how the story would end and all she did was whine and complain about how great it was when she was with God and how upset she was without him.

The gay rabbi was a nice touch.

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Reply #42 on: January 01, 2011, 12:37:48 AM
Since I tend to save up stories and then listen to them in bunches, I'm always coming late to the commenting party, but count me among those for whom this just didn't work.  I rarely feel like second-person narration adds something to the story; mostly it tends to feel like a self-consciously artificial device, preventing me from really investing with the characters.  As for the narrative itself . . . I tend to find the base concept (reminiscing over a relationship, the breakup, the awkwardness after, etc) completely unengaging, and making the boyfriend literally be God didn't change that for me.  Had it been the protagonist's decision to break up, as somebody else in this thread suggested, and God trying to get her back, that would have made me more interested, but as it stood this felt like a completely ordinary relationship story, and not at all my cup of tea.



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Reply #43 on: January 05, 2011, 03:55:45 PM
  I know I am well late to the party (I am backed up on a number of my commute podcasts), but I did finally get around to listening to this. I'm afraid that the point, assuming there is one, of this story is a little lost on me, but I enjoyed it all the same. Even my wife, who generally finds "blasphemous" fiction objectionable, seemed to enjoy it.

  The story made me think of Heather O'Neill's story about Mary Magdalene going to elementary school with a young Jesus. Even though the stories are both very different they felt like they had the same tone and fry sense of humour to them.

  As for seeing God as The Dude, no. I picture God as wearing a smart suit, and looking very professional even with a great bunch of white hair and a beard that would make Santa jealous. The Dude is cool, but I would hardly describe him as looking professional.

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Reply #44 on: January 05, 2011, 07:50:26 PM
  As for seeing God as The Dude, no. I picture God as wearing a smart suit, and looking very professional even with a great bunch of white hair and a beard that would make Santa jealous. The Dude is cool, but I would hardly describe him as looking professional.

Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.



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Reply #45 on: January 05, 2011, 09:09:24 PM
  As for seeing God as The Dude, no. I picture God as wearing a smart suit, and looking very professional even with a great bunch of white hair and a beard that would make Santa jealous. The Dude is cool, but I would hardly describe him as looking professional.

Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.

  I dunno, after a few billion (or six thousand, if you prefer) years of practice, I think He would be a professional at it by now. I certainly can't think of any other all-powerful deities who do a better job than Him (although I am pretty wizard at The Sims).

  I would say that lots of people have paid Him for his works; animal sacrifices, tithing, etc.

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Reply #46 on: January 06, 2011, 07:35:58 PM
  As for seeing God as The Dude, no. I picture God as wearing a smart suit, and looking very professional even with a great bunch of white hair and a beard that would make Santa jealous. The Dude is cool, but I would hardly describe him as looking professional.

Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.

  I dunno, after a few billion (or six thousand, if you prefer) years of practice, I think He would be a professional at it by now. I certainly can't think of any other all-powerful deities who do a better job than Him (although I am pretty wizard at The Sims).

  I would say that lots of people have paid Him for his works; animal sacrifices, tithing, etc.

I've got to vote for amateur on this one too.  Considering he could create any of those things with a thought, they're not really payments at all.



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Reply #47 on: January 06, 2011, 08:42:20 PM
Technically, God is an amateur.  No one ever paid Him for His creative works, after all.
I would say that lots of people have paid Him for his works; animal sacrifices, tithing, etc.
I've got to vote for amateur on this one too.  Considering he could create any of those things with a thought, they're not really payments at all.

This raises an interesting point.  Is payment what I give, or what you receive, or both?  If I give you something that I consider valuable, but it's worthless to you, have I paid you or not?  What if I give up something that is of little or no value to me, but it is of great value to you?  Does it require both sides to form 'payment'?  Hmm...

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Reply #48 on: January 06, 2011, 09:59:52 PM
God is the first of the true artists. He cannot help but to create, so he is always creating. He'll make worlds in a high-rise studio on the Upper East Side, or he'll spin out galaxies in back-alleys and subway tunnels. Goodness knows he's done both. Amateur, professional, hobbyist, calling, vocation - these distinctions don't matter to God. God is creation.

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Reply #49 on: January 06, 2011, 10:16:18 PM
God is the first of the true artists. He cannot help but to create, so he is always creating. He'll make worlds in a high-rise studio on the Upper East Side, or he'll spin out galaxies in back-alleys and subway tunnels. Goodness knows he's done both. Amateur, professional, hobbyist, calling, vocation - these distinctions don't matter to God. God is creation.

Mmhm.  That's what everyone says until they make their first big sale.