Author Topic: EP272: Christmas Wedding  (Read 32542 times)

kibitzer

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Reply #25 on: December 30, 2010, 08:40:55 AM
Dull. Sorry folks -- failed to engage on every level.


blueeyeddevil

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Reply #26 on: December 30, 2010, 01:10:10 PM
Uhhh, not to twig on your long discussion, but, given many possible interpretations of a statement -some that makes sense, and some that don't- why not choose an interpretation that makes sense?

"Typical corn-fed midwesterner goth" could be interpreted to mean that midwestern goths are big, or that the protagonist thinks one of her soon-to-be spouses is fat, or it could just mean 'farmgirl gone goth'.

As someone who has been described, by friends who for all intents and purposes seemed to be complimenting me, or at least not trying to insult me, 'corn-fed' and for that matter 'built like a Jersey bull' I don't see 'corn-fed' as an insult (I'm a New Englander, not a Midwesterner). Plus, "Born Bred Corn Fed" by the Reverend Peyton's Big Damn Band is one of my favorite songs.
I'm always happy to point out and examine terrible language when it works its way into stories (I remember still with a shudder a bit in a recent PP episode where a girls breasts got described as being clay-like, ugh). However, when a literary construction is clearly designed in such a way as to not mean what you think its saying (contextual clues being key here) then why not allow that maybe there's another way of reading it? 

Really, our culture hasn't come up with myriad and varied slang and insults for being fat that are less oblique?




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Reply #27 on: December 30, 2010, 01:57:02 PM
As for the story, I'm not bothered by the love story aspect here. I've agreed when people have complained about sexual content in the past, not because it involved gay sex, but because any sexual content has the risk of alienating, or in my case, boring the audience (if one can respect that different people are into different things, one must likewise admit that therefore, certain people are not into certain other things).
However, there was no sex in this story, it was just a story about love. If one can listen to a love story involving robots, aliens, and/or anthropomorphic animals (sometimes all in the same story) why does a story talking about three people trying to do something that symbolizes their love in the face of great difficulty oog some people out? 

The story was far from perfect, however.
[start venting]
I have a peeve about the general tone of post-apoc fiction suggesting that the difference between happy neighbors living side-by-side, and hockey-mask-wearing leatherboy-cannibals searching the countryside for baby stew, is whether or not their flatscreens work.
I do not agree with almost any of his other works, but the American Sociologist Talcott Parsons famously said: "Society is sui generis" (self-creating). Society is not thrust upon us, society is something we all desire and create, inherent to being human.
I believe, with only my decent understanding of anthropology, sociology, and psychology to back me up, that if and when something like the disaster in this story happens, after the initial panic, people will actually pull together. Why? We'd all die out rapidly if we didn't. Man's greatest advantage is not the opposable thumb, it is the division of labor.
A Mad-Max world is the sweaty-palmed dream of people who keep Gun magazines under their mattress. Who, in my experience, are the first to start crying about there being no air-conditioning. [venting done]

Aside from my general peeve about the genre, I'd have to say that the attitudes of the characters were petty and foolish. This is not how people who've survived for over a year act. I've lived without heat, water, and electricity (separately and altogether), and lived around other people who've done the same, they don't act like this.
 
Also, the Chinese invasion: stupid, logistically impossible, and completely unreasoned. They would have to invade by coming across Europe (can't cross the midwest), and why would they try to take over the US, which is the actual epicenter of the destruction? Russia, Australia, or Africa would be logical and accessable targets.



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Reply #28 on: December 30, 2010, 02:49:35 PM
Uhhh, not to twig on your long discussion, but, given many possible interpretations of a statement -some that makes sense, and some that don't- why not choose an interpretation that makes sense?

I didn't choose an interpretation that makes sense because, to me, none of the interpretations made sense, and they still don't. 

Quote
However, when a literary construction is clearly designed in such a way as to not mean what you think its saying (contextual clues being key here) then why not allow that maybe there's another way of reading it?

Context clues were what convinced me that my interpretation didn't make sense, but did not offer an interpretation that did make sense, so I'm no more illuminated than I was before.




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Reply #29 on: December 30, 2010, 05:25:13 PM
Yes, in my experience, "corn fed" is not a derogatory term, but descriptive.  I've generally taken it as somewhere between "Rubenesque" (ie - pleasingly rounded/plump but not exactly "fat") and, when applied to men and women alike, something along the lines of just "big" but also strong, in a natural, healthy way - like Lil' Abner or Daisy Mae.  See the song "Cornfed Dames" by The Cramps ("there are many more things in Tennessee / than are dreamed of in your philosophy...")



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Reply #30 on: December 31, 2010, 10:28:20 PM
I seem to be in the minority here, but I really liked this story. I liked almost everything about it.   Flashbacks usually don't work very well for me in audio fiction, but this time they did. Perhaps that's because the settings were so different between the present and the past. I thought the author did a really good job of creating a sense of the various settings in the story with a few details. Similarly, I thought she did a really good job of drawing each of the main characters. Sure, the minor characters weren't very fleshed out, but I got a good feel for each of the main characters. That's something that doesn't always happen in short sf, or if it does, it's at the expense of plot. In this story, I thought there was a good balance between character development, setting, and plot.

(As an aside, I live in the Midwest, and I'm pretty sure I know a few "typical corn-fed goth girls."  She's a typical girl from a traditional small-town meat-and-potatoes upbringing who has adopted something of a goth aesthetic. A bit hardened from feeling the outsider in her home town, she probably wears Doc Martins and has multiple peircings and tattoos. Usually closer to punk goth than etherial High Goth. She will move to a city at the first opportunity.)

Also, it was nice to see a non-traditional relationship (and wedding) represented in fiction.

The story did feel like a study for a larger novel. But I wasn't bothered by that. It just made me want to read the novel, with everything hinted at here fleshed out.

Last but not least, as a geologist, I liked the science fiction aspect of the story.  Super-volcano in Yellowstone blows, covering a third of the country in lava and covering the globe in ash? Cooool!



Katie

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Reply #31 on: January 01, 2011, 09:57:05 PM
What happens after the apocalypse? People make do, and have the same concerns and issues they did before the apocalypse, because you carry yourself forward, and you're still you. I love that about this story, and how it's about oddballs--the people who don't fit in anywhere in particular--finding a home inside of each other. I love it that one of those people is profoundly broken, and she's beloved and respected anyway. I don't really like Christmas or weddings, and almost passed this one up based on the title, but am really glad I didn't.

It reminds my of a Bertolt Brecht quote:
"In the dark times will there also be singing? Yes, there will also be singing about the dark times."



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Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
@Katie
That's a very insightful observation you made and it pleased me to read it. Loners and  odd-balls probably would have a somewhat easier time psychologically adjusting to disaster scenarios since their coping skills and self-reliant habits are more developed. Just to survive and endure in normal times would require that. The gritty neighborhoods in old Detroit have far better survival and coping skills (of the kind that count) than the residents of Bloomfield Hills do I'll wager and should an apocalyptic event ever happen around here would probably fare better long term. Or so it seems to me.



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Reply #33 on: January 03, 2011, 08:44:25 PM
I think I have a unique take on this stories lesbian/polygamy. I don't mind such topics being central in stories, and I think escape artists deserves some credit for publishing stories some might find offensive (that's art). My issue with these lesbian stories is they use homosexuality as a shortcut to make a story edgy.

Instead of using homosexuality in some interesting way, this story just wanted to let me know that homosexuals are people too, and their love is perfectly natural...<yawn>. Maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe those subjects are mind-bending to someone in their 50s.

I'd summarize this story as "not only can two women (one of whom started out bisexual) be in love, but indeed three women (one of whom is bisexual and another who is brained damaged and was bisexual) can be in love even in challenging circumstances". Not only is that a dull message, the story even conforms to stereotypical conservative trope about the dangers of homosexuality. Jerry Falwell could have preached this story, but with his final moral being "if we allow gay marriage you'll see polygamy legalized soon after, and these LGBT will refuse to have children, even if the future of America depended on it. The family will disintegrate."



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Reply #34 on: January 03, 2011, 09:35:25 PM
I'd summarize this story as "not only can two women (one of whom started out bisexual) be in love, but indeed three women (one of whom is bisexual and another who is brained damaged and was bisexual) can be in love even in challenging circumstances". Not only is that a dull message, the story even conforms to stereotypical conservative trope about the dangers of homosexuality. Jerry Falwell could have preached this story, but with his final moral being "if we allow gay marriage you'll see polygamy legalized soon after, and these LGBT will refuse to have children, even if the future of America depended on it. The family will disintegrate."


I'd argue the story only says that if the reader imagines it does. If you're looking to find ways to warp a story towards a hateful end, you can do that with just about any story ever told. That's not a weakness in the story; that's a weakness in the mind of the person who is looking to be hateful (I'm not saying that's what you're doing, I'm saying anyone who would go on to argue the point you suggest Falwell might).

I don't think the story is a "message" story at all. IMHO its just the story about the compexities of the relationships between these three women and how that came to be/was affected by the calamity. I really don't think it was trying to be preachy in the least.



Katie

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Reply #35 on: January 04, 2011, 08:31:12 PM
I read that comment that homosexuality needs to be interesting if it's included in a story, and wonder if heterosexuality needs to be interested if included in a story? I think about all the stories that have, as a central theme, the complexities of a man and woman in love, and in fact, think that's a huge part of most stories, even in scifi. Rarely, I think, is the heterosexuality particularly interesting, but the peculiarities and facts of the romance and individuals make the story. I think saying the homosexuality needs to be interesting is asking it to serve a higher standard merely because fewer people in the world are queer. 



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Reply #36 on: January 04, 2011, 10:02:56 PM
Aside from my general peeve about the genre, I'd have to say that the attitudes of the characters were petty and foolish. This is not how people who've survived for over a year act. I've lived without heat, water, and electricity (separately and altogether), and lived around other people who've done the same, they don't act like this.

They may not act like this normally, but weird stuff happens on wedding days.  And that's why I liked this story.  Mel was going through what many brides, or grooms, go through.  In Mel's case, she was trying to bring things back to before The Day, make things perfect for just one day.  The promise she made to Cory to give her a princess wedding day trumped everything else, making her forget what they were trying to accomplish, ripping pages out of the wedding magazine in her mind's eye, and comparing them to her wedding day, when clearly that would be impossible.  Paul was right, she had a chip on her shoulder, and should have been glad it was happening at all.  No wedding goes perfectly, and too many bridezillas and groomzillas go absolutely haywire trying to make it so.   

As far as the relationship goes, I was left wondering what Mel adds to it.  Ravenna takes care of Cory, helps her recover, pushes her around, gives her comfort when Cory is having a bad time, etc.  All Mel seems to do is get bothered about everything. 

Note to self:  Write "Jesus was a time-traveler" Christmas story for next year for the Christians. 

In all seriousness, I understand that Christians want to keep the Christ in Christmas, but the day has far outgrown its religious beginnings and grown into a commercial mega-monster that most people identify it as.   There's no getting that genie back in the bottle.  So please enjoy your religious holiday called Christmas, and I will enjoy my commercial holiday called Christmas, that happens on the same day. 

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Reply #37 on: January 04, 2011, 10:27:34 PM
@gamercow
If that's the case then we unbelievers should stop calling this mad spending spree we enjoy/participate in/endure "Christmas" any longer. But to try to bring this back on topic I don't think the author really meant for story's denouement to go in that direction. Just a thought.



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Reply #38 on: January 05, 2011, 03:27:13 AM
I skimmed over some of the comments, but decided to stop so I could hold onto the warm fuzzy feeling I got from this story. Being in a poly-amorous relationship myself it was nice to see a depiction that wasn't overly sexualized and understood that it isn't 2 + 1, it's 3. The description of the color spectrum fitted perfectly. Details aren't the point of this type of story, it's about reaffirming the spirit of the season.



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Reply #39 on: January 05, 2011, 06:13:05 AM
When I hear "Goth" I think more about conventions of clothing and makeup, and possibly dyed-black hair, more than natural skin tone and natural hair tone.
Me too, and I think most people do (except for those people who think about architecture and end up being thoroughly confused).
And yes, trying to picture a girl looking like a pointy arch and flying buttresses made me giggle.
But back on topic, maybe she was just an unsophisticated city-dweller who likes dark makeup and leather? That would seem to fit all of the descriptions.
It also adds a little bit of spice to the relationship. You have a brain-damaged bank teller, a scarred ornithologist and an RV-jacking goth girl. Not exactly your typical group of lovers. But, in my opinion, is the beauty of the story.

That's the way I interpreted "typical midwestern goth". The midwest isn't really known for it's goth scene, so I expect Raveena was a bit of a poser goth; learned about it from 3rd hand sources and did the best she could with what she had ... on weekends ;)

Also, please allow me to clarify one common misconception that seems to get propagated far too much...
   Goth is the music and fashion movement
   Gothic is the architectural and literary style.
The two are not interchangeable  :D



Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #40 on: January 05, 2011, 09:54:23 AM
As far as the relationship goes, I was left wondering what Mel adds to it.  Ravenna takes care of Cory, helps her recover, pushes her around, gives her comfort when Cory is having a bad time, etc.  All Mel seems to do is get bothered about everything.  
Now that you mention it...
I thought about it a little bit, and I think I have it.
It's like the three body problem in physics. Nobody can solve it completely, but they can point at certain relationships between every pair in the equation.
Ravenna and Cory have the relationship mentioned above, but left alone that would simply be a functional relationship. Mel's job is to add the love to the matrix. Mel and Cory love each other, and Mel and Ravenna love each other. Through Mel, Cory and Ravenna can love each other as well.
Even in the story Mel says that she can't really explain it, but she loves them both equally but differently (I'm paraphrasing, too lazy to listen to that bit again), and that the whole love triangle is complicated like that.
So, in a word, what does Mel add to the relationship? Love.

EDIT
Links on the three body problem.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 09:58:17 AM by Max e^{i pi} »

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Reply #41 on: January 05, 2011, 02:55:56 PM
As far as the relationship goes, I was left wondering what Mel adds to it.  Ravenna takes care of Cory, helps her recover, pushes her around, gives her comfort when Cory is having a bad time, etc.  All Mel seems to do is get bothered about everything.  
Now that you mention it...
I thought about it a little bit, and I think I have it.
It's like the three body problem in physics. Nobody can solve it completely, but they can point at certain relationships between every pair in the equation.
Ravenna and Cory have the relationship mentioned above, but left alone that would simply be a functional relationship. Mel's job is to add the love to the matrix. Mel and Cory love each other, and Mel and Ravenna love each other. Through Mel, Cory and Ravenna can love each other as well.
Even in the story Mel says that she can't really explain it, but she loves them both equally but differently (I'm paraphrasing, too lazy to listen to that bit again), and that the whole love triangle is complicated like that.
So, in a word, what does Mel add to the relationship? Love.

EDIT
Links on the three body problem.

Also keep in mind that this is from Mel's point of view, and her positive traits or lack thereof may be an artifact of her own perceptions. If we'd seen the story from Ravenna's POV, it might seem that Ravenna is the third wheel.

Also, Mel is very stressed from the wedding, and is clearly not her usual self on this particular day.



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Reply #42 on: January 05, 2011, 06:03:45 PM
Also, please allow me to clarify one common misconception that seems to get propagated far too much...
   Goth is the music and fashion movement
   Gothic is the architectural and literary style.
The two are not interchangeable  :D

Silly me... and I was thinking Goths were an east-Germanic tribe in the third century :-P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth

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Reply #43 on: January 05, 2011, 06:35:11 PM
I skimmed over some of the comments, but decided to stop so I could hold onto the warm fuzzy feeling I got from this story. Being in a poly-amorous relationship myself it was nice to see a depiction that wasn't overly sexualized and understood that it isn't 2 + 1, it's 3. The description of the color spectrum fitted perfectly.

Yeah, warm fuzzy feelings here too. Personally I'm hetero and mono, but as Boy George once said, "Any love is good love."  :)

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Reply #44 on: January 05, 2011, 08:17:00 PM
Finally listened to this one, and I have to say it's one of my least favorite EP espisodes so far. :-\ Maybe it's just because I was expecting something Christmas-y and for me this one had oblique ties (at best) to Christmas. For example, someone mentioned how they thought The Day was on Christmas. Actually, it was near the holidays, but not identified as Christmas Day. "They'd planned to make Christmas cookies together later, the most subversive thing she could think of for two queer women to do on a Saturday night." The relevant section is at the 14:46-15:16 mark for reference if you want to check.

Also, really? A goth chick with black hair named Ravenna? This is just one example of completely unnecessary telegraphing of characters.


My favorite part of the story was how Mel predicted the apocalypse correctly but the favorite prediction was stupefaction from bad tv would allow the government to run amuck without anyone caring.



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Reply #45 on: January 05, 2011, 09:28:28 PM
@gamercow
If that's the case then we unbelievers should stop calling this mad spending spree we enjoy/participate in/endure "Christmas" any longer.

Many have so stopped, I believe.  I've seen cards that wish "Good Yule" (or, trying to be cute, "Göd Yul" or other variation).  Plus I know plenty of people - well, some people - who wish "Merry Newtonmas" (since Isaac Newton's birthday actually is December 25) or "Merry Squidmas" or something about Festivus or some other alternative.

Plus, just ask Bill O'Reilly: every time someone says "Happy Holidays," it's an Attack On Christmas, doncha know.

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stePH

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Reply #46 on: January 05, 2011, 11:16:23 PM
Plus, just ask Bill O'Reilly: every time someone says "Happy Holidays," it's an Attack On Christmas, doncha know.


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Reply #47 on: January 06, 2011, 07:39:14 PM
Also, really? A goth chick with black hair named Ravenna? This is just one example of completely unnecessary telegraphing of characters.

So what's the problem?  I mean, part of the Goth image is having black hair (which can be died) and having a Goth name (which can be made up).  If she were blonde and named Bambi, most people wouldn't call her Goth.



Devoted135

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Reply #48 on: January 06, 2011, 07:49:31 PM
Also, really? A goth chick with black hair named Ravenna? This is just one example of completely unnecessary telegraphing of characters.

So what's the problem?  I mean, part of the Goth image is having black hair (which can be died) and having a Goth name (which can be made up).  If she were blonde and named Bambi, most people wouldn't call her Goth.

Actually, I would equally object to a blonde character named Bambi, especially if she were ditzy or in some other way filling a stereotype. Or a redneck guy named Bubba, etc. I just have a preference that names either be "random" (Mel, Cory) or have the meaning buried a little deeper (Ariadne in Inception).



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Reply #49 on: January 07, 2011, 01:05:25 AM
Some have mentioned the complexity of the relationships, but I didn't sense any complexity.  I know there must have been, but it just looked like three women who loved each other and wanted to marry each other.  I didn't sense any challenge or tension in the relationships. 

Interesting that with all the progessivity, the main conflict is a girl wanting her wedding day to be perfect.  Very chickflick.

I've mentioned my little observation before and the forum has in general poo-pooed and looked askance.  But when you have a female author and a female main character, the focus of the story will usually be the MC's romantic relationship.  Men get to solve all kinds of problems and save worlds, and women get to fret about their significant other(s).