Author Topic: EP276: On a Blade of Grass  (Read 37594 times)

acpracht

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Reply #25 on: January 24, 2011, 03:13:40 PM
I'm wondering if the breakdown between "likes" and "dislikes" in the forum corresponds with whether or not listeners already knew about the ants and the grass and the sheep.

parasite fun fact:  there is a barnacle that will attach itself to a male crab, drill through the shell, grow tendrils throughout the crab's body, and secrete female crab hormones until the crab believes itself to be female and the barnacle to be its eggs.  The new mother will die defending the barnacle from predators. 

On the first part - for me, no. I liked the story and was well aware of that particular parasite story (ants, grass, sheep) and toxoplasmosis (Stuff You Should Know had a great podcast on this subject). If anything, it enhanced my enjoyment.

-Adam



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Reply #26 on: January 24, 2011, 04:30:02 PM
I've heard of the parasite referenced by the title, enough so that it was the first guess I had of the story content based on the title.  I think I've heard it explained on Drabblecast and StarShipSofa, maybe a 3rd source as well.  I've heard stories about the possibilities of retroviruses being responsible for making us who we are.  So the big ideas I'd already seen before, and the lack of plot left me with nothing much to really like.  Maybe if the parasitologist had some evidence of his theory, or we see some evidence for ourselves, maybe that could've made the story more compelling to me.  As is, it felt like I'd read it before, even though I hadn't.



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Reply #27 on: January 24, 2011, 05:30:28 PM
The presenter really added value too.

Yep, Matt did a great job.  I think if I'd read this in text, I'd have had a similar reaction to Nobilis and Scattercat and others, although while it appeared to be 'just' a conversation in a bar, I think the real story is that of the bartender, and it's internal. To me, the researcher's travails are a story-within-a-story that set up the bartender for a fairly major change in perspective.

In any case, Matt's characterizations made the story a lot more alive for me.

It's like, "Dude, you didn't lose your funding because they fear to admit that free will doesn't exist.  You lost your funding because you came to a scientifically implausible conclusion without any supporting data."

He was trying for funding to get supporting data (or try and fail, at least).  "Dude, you don't have data to support your hypothesis, so we're not going to give you any money to get data to test it," seems like a pretty circular argument.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


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Reply #28 on: January 24, 2011, 05:40:37 PM
I just want to hop on the bandwagon of praise for Matt's fantastic reading of this one. Really great reading, and I'm looking forward to him reading more!


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Reply #29 on: January 24, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
I just want to hop on the bandwagon of praise for Matt's fantastic reading of this one. Really great reading, and I'm looking forward to him reading more!

Me too, I loved the parasitoligist voice especially.



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Reply #30 on: January 24, 2011, 06:30:59 PM
He was trying for funding to get supporting data (or try and fail, at least).  "Dude, you don't have data to support your hypothesis, so we're not going to give you any money to get data to test it," seems like a pretty circular argument.

But I don't think he even went through the usual channels to try to get the money.  Didn't he call up some government official and act like he knew of an emergency?  I doubt that helped his credibility any.

Also, I got the impression that a "cure" for the disease he claims he's trying to find would not just cure desire for geographical exploration, but for scientific inquiry.  So even if he had any facts to support his idea, and if people actually believed him, I'm not sure he'd get funding for the research that would LITERALLY end all research. 



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #31 on: January 24, 2011, 07:04:18 PM
He was trying for funding to get supporting data (or try and fail, at least). "Dude, you don't have data to support your hypothesis, so we're not going to give you any money to get data to test it," seems like a pretty circular argument.
I got the impression that a "cure" for the disease he claims he's trying to find would not just cure desire for geographical exploration, but for scientific inquiry. So even if he had any facts to support his idea, and if people actually believed him, I'm not sure he'd get funding for the research that would LITERALLY end all research. 

But all of that, including the "You're crazy" reaction of the funding deny-ers, is just as speculative as the original hypothesis. If there is such a parasite, then until we find it and study it, we have no idea what other effects - good or ill - it is having?

If a researcher can show that there is evidence of such a parasite, then the time comes to find out what its full effects are and what would happen if it were neutralized. The parasitologist can't force the rest of us to accept his 'cure', but we might be able to use his results to protect ourselves from being eaten by the alien equivalent of the ant-eating sheep.

Also, if a co-evolved, alien parasite is what is causing our desire for scientific (and other inquiry), then if we don't know anything about it, we can't protect it (if that's what we decide we want to do).

The point is, there's nothing to be gained by not finding out one way or another, if his hunch is correct or not. Knowing is better than not knowing, even - maybe especially - when you don't like what you find out.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


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Reply #32 on: January 24, 2011, 11:20:05 PM
Ok, full disclosure: I worked for a couple years in a Toxoplasma gondii research lab and I am, in fact, a "she".  ;)

Given the first point, I think I'm biased in favor of this story. :) I can definitely see where people find room to criticize it, but I honestly just enjoyed hearing parasite-fueled behavior modification taken to the extremes of the universe. Pair that with the not-insignificant amount of excitement produced by hearing my name read by the esteemed Bill Peters, and I thoroughly enjoyed this episode.

add me to the chorus of praise for the excellent reading :)



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Reply #33 on: January 25, 2011, 02:05:27 AM
The point is, there's nothing to be gained by not finding out one way or another, if his hunch is correct or not. Knowing is better than not knowing, even - maybe especially - when you don't like what you find out.

But that's not how science works.  You don't just come up with a random idea and then test it; such a scattershot approach would lead to little forward motion.  You look at the evidence and attempt to form a hypothesis that supports all of the available data, and then find a way to test that hypothesis.  In this case, his central thesis, "Exploring is dangerous and therefore it must be aliens," is scientifically flawed on multiple levels.  First, many dangerous behaviors are not evolutionarily maladaptive or caused by outside forces.  Hunting is more dangerous than being an autotroph, but predation is not caused by parasites.  Sex creates the risk of STDs, but sexual reproduction is not caused by parasites.  A drive to explore leads to potentially vast rewards, particularly in situations of overcrowding, so it's hardly inimical to the existence of a given species to have a desire for novelty.  Secondly, it is much more likely that one of the basic drives of human nature is caused by something inherent to human nature rather than by an outside force; we already know a great deal about neuropsychology, and it makes much more sense to seek an answer for human behavior patterns there than in a hypothetical alien parasite.  Thirdly, there is no evidence supporting the existence of an alien parasite.  No one has ever seen such a thing, and within the world of this story, the Phages are the first aliens we ever encountered; the chances of these same aliens, the only ones we've discovered in a vast, vast universe, being connected to us by a single parasite with a millennia-long life cycle are vanishingly small.

For example, sunspots and flares *might* be caused by giant, invisible alien ships crashing into the star like moths drawn to a flame, but it is much more likely to be caused by some sort of reaction within the star itself.  If we're setting up a study and we have limited funds, we're going to give the money to the guys who say "We're examining the effects of electromagnetism on plasma" than to the guy who says "I'm trying to turn invisible so I can determine how the aliens get past us unseen."

So yes.  His funding was revoked quite justifiably because he was wasting money and doing bad science.  If we eliminate all the obvious causes and are completely at a loss to explain a particular phenomenon, then sure, we can start trying out the more wackball theories.  But it just makes more sense to try the obvious first and either establish or disprove them as the source of whatever phenomenon we're studying. 

This is far more thought than really needed to go into this, but it is why I was unhappy with the story-qua-story despite my enjoyment of parasites.



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Reply #34 on: January 25, 2011, 02:33:51 AM
He was trying for funding to get supporting data (or try and fail, at least).  "Dude, you don't have data to support your hypothesis, so we're not going to give you any money to get data to test it," seems like a pretty circular argument.

But I don't think he even went through the usual channels to try to get the money.  Didn't he call up some government official and act like he knew of an emergency?  I doubt that helped his credibility any.

Also, I got the impression that a "cure" for the disease he claims he's trying to find would not just cure desire for geographical exploration, but for scientific inquiry.  So even if he had any facts to support his idea, and if people actually believed him, I'm not sure he'd get funding for the research that would LITERALLY end all research. 


There's your story.  Humans are being ground up like hamburger by aliens because we are illogically driven to explore space.  Scientist discovers a way to "cure" humanity of it's drive to explore, which would save lives, but would also end scientific pursuit.  What does he do?  Obviously you would need to deal with Scattercat and Wilson's reservations, but they don't seem like deal breakers.


And, yes the reading was excellent.

And yes, the fishtongue bug is the grosser than the crab egg bug.  But I always felt sorry for the crabs who were brain washed into protecting that sneaky, evil barnacle (no, I don't actually know how detrimental the egg bug is to the crabs).  I forgot, does the fish tongue bug change the behavior of the fish?  Or does the fish "know" he has a bug for a tongue and is just making the best of it? 



Schreiber

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Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 02:43:19 AM
This story reminded me a lot of Radiolab's (factual) episode on parasites, especially the section called "The Scratch".  In fact, I kind of wonder if it inspired the story.

Here's a link to it:  http://www.radiolab.org/2009/sep/07/

Yes, I thought so as well. But let's assume Tim drew his inspiration from the same sources as Jad and Robert.



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Reply #36 on: January 25, 2011, 02:22:58 PM
For example, sunspots and flares *might* be caused by giant, invisible alien ships crashing into the star like moths drawn to a flame, but it is much more likely to be caused by some sort of reaction within the star itself.  If we're setting up a study and we have limited funds, we're going to give the money to the guys who say "We're examining the effects of electromagnetism on plasma" than to the guy who says "I'm trying to turn invisible so I can determine how the aliens get past us unseen."

Scattercat's explanation of the scientific funding is written much better than my own, so I'm just going to point.

And I want to read a story about the alien moth ships.  That is awesome.



blueeyeddevil

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Reply #37 on: January 25, 2011, 05:37:43 PM
Sign me up for the 'not really a story' camp on this one. I enjoyed it nevertheless, but there was no plot...maybe.

For plot to occur, there must be a change, and there was possibly a change in the narrator, right at the end. There might not have been, either. I think it was intended to be, though.

'Last Line Makes The Story' stories are risky because we westerners (and to some degree easterners as well, though I have not read enough eastern fiction to speak confidently about it) are used to the time honored intro-explanation-reversal-climax-denoument structure of storytelling. To make a few weak analogies, the last bite of the sandwich is not where we expect to find something new, and the last notes of the song are just prolonging the established sense of the piece.



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Reply #38 on: January 25, 2011, 05:46:20 PM
Sign me up for the 'not really a story' camp on this one. I enjoyed it nevertheless, but there was no plot...maybe.

For plot to occur, there must be a change, and there was possibly a change in the narrator, right at the end. There might not have been, either. I think it was intended to be, though.

'Last Line Makes The Story' stories are risky because we westerners (and to some degree easterners as well, though I have not read enough eastern fiction to speak confidently about it) are used to the time honored intro-explanation-reversal-climax-denoument structure of storytelling. To make a few weak analogies, the last bite of the sandwich is not where we expect to find something new, and the last notes of the song are just prolonging the established sense of the piece.

I don't necessarily have anything against the final line changing everything, but with this final line I wasn't convinced that anything had changed.  He's just had a conversation about parasites causing desire to explore space, it's natural to think about space exploration after that.  There's certainly a cause and effect there, but I see it as a "I'm thinking about something I just talked about" relationship, not an infection-symptom relationship.  I mean, when I go to the grocery store, and end up listening to a slightly crazed teller explaining to me that the weather has been so strange lately because of government weather experiments, yes I may very well glance at the sky as I leave, but that doesn't mean that I'm convinced of her tale, it's just that having a conversation about weather predictably makes me think about weather.



Rachel Udin

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Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 06:31:03 PM
I would have been more interested in seeing the parasites actually played out in action rather than seeing talking heads in a bar. The story broke the rule of "Tell v. show."

I do have to say the reading was excellent, and the idea was excellent. The execution... meh. I would have liked real events with real character change occur rather than talking about the possibility of it.



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Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 07:37:44 PM
Mmmm, loved this one too.
This is, in my opinion, nearly a classical piece of science fiction.
Think back to the early days of science fiction, where the purpose of the story wasn't (just) to provide the reader with an excellent piece of escapism, but also to put forward an interesting idea, explore certain areas of our civilization that we'd prefer to leave dark or just to simply put out feelers and prepare ourselves for the future.
That I feel is what we have here. A simple story that explores a profound idea. I'm pretty sure that the idea of parasites manipulating us behind the scenes is not exactly new, but it certainly isn't mainstream. And to put it out there like this.... it's makes you stop and think.
Could it be that the whole universe is a vast ultra-organism with intricate interlocking parts that don't make any sense at their own level? Could we simply be the mitochondria in our Solar System with no idea of how it works? (Meaning to say that we are just a smaller part of something much bigger, and we act like this because we are "programmed" to. The act of programming is preformed by the parasites).
In the words of the immortal Douglas Adams:
"All through my life I've had this strange unaccountable feeling that something was going on in the world, and that no one would tell me what it was.
"No, that's just perfectly normal paranoia, everyone in the universe has that."
(Arthur Dent and Slartibartfast on Magrathea, Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, the original radio dramas, Primary Phase)

Anyway, two thumbs up for a thought-provoking story.

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matweller

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Reply #41 on: January 27, 2011, 05:32:01 AM
Good reading by Matt. Is that your native accent, Matt, or did you put one on?

It's a little NY, a little stereotypical Jew, a little Gilbert Gottfried (which may be redundant)...it just came out when I did that voice. Actually, I was worried that it didn't really fit with a scientist character, but it was too fun to stop once I got going. I'm from Western PA and I can do some killer Pitsburghese, but my mom would have slapped me silly if I had grown up with that as my natural accent. Natural for me is more "Lazy Ohioan." Too much rap music...



matweller

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Reply #42 on: January 27, 2011, 05:37:38 AM
parasite fun fact:  there is a barnacle that will attach itself to a male crab, drill through the shell, grow tendrils throughout the crab's body, and secrete female crab hormones until the crab believes itself to be female and the barnacle to be its eggs.  The new mother will die defending the barnacle from predators.

That goddamned thing that severs and becomes some poor fish's tongue still wins the creep-factor for parasites. 

That's bad, but only number one if you've never YouTube searched "maggot breast" or "spider bite infection".



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Reply #43 on: January 27, 2011, 03:06:45 PM
Mmmm, loved this one too.
This is, in my opinion, nearly a classical piece of science fiction.
Think back to the early days of science fiction, where the purpose of the story wasn't (just) to provide the reader with an excellent piece of escapism, but also to put forward an interesting idea, explore certain areas of our civilization that we'd prefer to leave dark or just to simply put out feelers and prepare ourselves for the future.
That I feel is what we have here. A simple story that explores a profound idea. I'm pretty sure that the idea of parasites manipulating us behind the scenes is not exactly new, but it certainly isn't mainstream. And to put it out there like this.... it's makes you stop and think.
Could it be that the whole universe is a vast ultra-organism with intricate interlocking parts that don't make any sense at their own level? Could we simply be the mitochondria in our Solar System with no idea of how it works? (Meaning to say that we are just a smaller part of something much bigger, and we act like this because we are "programmed" to. The act of programming is preformed by the parasites).
In the words of the immortal Douglas Adams:
"All through my life I've had this strange unaccountable feeling that something was going on in the world, and that no one would tell me what it was.
"No, that's just perfectly normal paranoia, everyone in the universe has that."
(Arthur Dent and Slartibartfast on Magrathea, Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, the original radio dramas, Primary Phase)

Anyway, two thumbs up for a thought-provoking story.

It certainly fits one style of classic science fiction, with the talking heads explaining ideas and whatnot.  But...  I never really liked that style all that much.  Among other things, it tends not to age well because once the idea loses it's novelty the story has nothing left to offer.  If this story'd been a new and profound idea, it might've swept me up this time through.  As you said, the idea probably isn't mainstream, but neither is this story, really.  I think the same niche group that is likely to have come across this idea elsewhere has a huge overlap with the niche group that listens to science fiction podcasts.



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Reply #44 on: January 29, 2011, 04:54:20 PM
I liked this one, but as other have said it was pretty much just a retelling of current science with a little extra added to it, i would have liked to see the idea expanded on more.



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Reply #45 on: January 30, 2011, 01:06:18 PM
Didn't the premise of the toxoplasmosis effect get turned around from 'makes you less inhibited' to 'damps down your will to explore'? Otherwise, interesting idea, although I hope the failure to get research funding doesn't turn all scientists into bar flies who sound like 1950s US journos! :D

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


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Reply #46 on: January 30, 2011, 03:10:58 PM
... The story broke the rule of "Tell v. show."...

Hell, this story is one big EXAMPLE of how to "tell" and not "show".



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Reply #47 on: January 30, 2011, 04:50:45 PM
I have to admit that this story didn't really do it for me. I'm unusually tolerant of stories with weird structures, but this one didn't do it for me. There were a lot of neat ideas, cleverly presented, but I didn't have anyone. I respect that this is a proud tradition in science fiction, but it's not one I really like.

That said.

I really do like the ideas presented in this piece. I'm currently imagining a fantasy setting in which the magical powers are granted by a parasite infestation.

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Reply #48 on: January 30, 2011, 06:46:46 PM
I really do like the ideas presented in this piece. I'm currently imagining a fantasy setting in which the magical powers are granted by a parasite infestation.
Like the Goa'uld?
Remember, any sufficiently advanced technology can be perceived as magic.

WARNING! The following will only be understood by Stargate fans.
Plus, without the Goa'uld one would not have Naqahdah in their blood and could not use the technology.
Granted the Goa'uld are referred to as symbiots, but only if you are a Jaffa. Otherwise the relationship is parasitic. True the host gains phenomenal strength and longevity, but the host is actually a prisoner in its own body, without control of anything. Thus rendering the relationship parasitic.
I am not a biologist, but iirc the definition of a parasitic relationship is that the host gains nothing, even loses from the relationship, and the parasite only gains. One could successfully argue that in the case of the Goa'uld all benefits to the host are superseded by the fact that the host has no control over the body.

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Dem

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Reply #49 on: January 30, 2011, 06:53:24 PM
I really do like the ideas presented in this piece. I'm currently imagining a fantasy setting in which the magical powers are granted by a parasite infestation.
One could successfully argue that in the case of the Goa'uld all benefits to the host are superseded by the fact that the host has no control over the body.
Agreed. Plus you have to put up with being an ancient Egyptian incapable of using contractions in language. B'ummer.

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.