PC144: To Ride Beyond The Wide World’s End

[blueeyeddevil]

Let me play a game of "what if?" here and pretend that others have not responded to and somewhat validated this claim.

Well, The Hobbit is a prologue, isn't it? 

No.
No, it isn't, not in any way, shape, or form.

The Hobbit is a story that exists entirely separately from the LOTR trilogy. If the LOTR trilogy had never existed, the beauty and charm of The Hobbit would be not one whit reduced. What The Hobbit is is a sequel.
Stop, everyone who's saying, 'No, it's a prequel!
"Prequel" is anti-etymological BS Hollywoodspeak. (A sequel is part of a sequence. A prequel is not part of a prequence. Curse Lucas one more time for his terrible set of "prequels" introducing this idea into the cultural gestalt.)

This story, though I liked its tone and style, barely fulfilled the basic Aristotelian requirements for plot. It is a prologue, and though I have not read the story that comes afterward, I would guess it is an unnecessary prologue. Speaking honestly, this whole story suffers from a case of "too short for Richard, too long for Dick."
It's good writing, but as all of us who've written have probably have seen; sometimes even good writing produces something that the story doesn't need.

Forgive the cranky-old-man literary criticism. I liked this story, but this is the conclusion I had to honestly come to. Forgive the underline, format problems, and I don't want to re-write this.

[Ocicat]

Okay, digression: How is The Hobbit either a sequel or a prequel?  It was written first, it comes first in the story chronology.  And yes, it stands alone and is a complete story.  LotR?  That's a sequel.

[blueeyeddevil]

Okay, digression: How is The Hobbit either a sequel or a prequel?  It was written first, it comes first in the story chronology.  And yes, it stands alone and is a complete story.  LotR?  That's a sequel.

You're right, 'sequel' in modern use means something that follows in a sequence.
I didn't want to add to an already too long post by saying 'original work from which a later work was derived' or 'counter chronological sequel' in the older, original meaning of sequel as 'iterative component of a sequence.' I knew that would get me in trouble about ten minutes after I posted.

Half my message was me expressing a bit of annoyance that so many people, whom I consider quite intelligent and capable, spending time talking about literature using filmmaker's language, which really has much more to do with economic concerns and the arcane rules of Hollywood.

Again, the underlining gaffe may make it look like I was being more vehement than I meant.

[ElectricPaladin]

A sequel is part of a sequence. A prequel is not part of a prequence. Curse Lucas one more time for his terrible set of "prequels" introducing this idea into the cultural gestalt.

Tee-hee. Prequence. I'm going to use that word all the damned time now. What does it mean? I'm not sure yet. Perhaps it means any series in reverse. Like: "the scenes in 'Memento' are arranged in a prequence" or "I'm going to read the books of The Wheel of Time in prequence so they get better instead of worse as I go." Perhaps I'll name one of my children (both my children?) Prequence. It's a great word.

I'm sorry. I should probably just go back to sleep.

[stePH]

"Prequel" is anti-etymological BS Hollywoodspeak. (A sequel is part of a sequence. A prequel is not part of a prequence. Curse Lucas one more time for his terrible set of "prequels" introducing this idea into the cultural gestalt.)

I knew the word "prequel" long before there was talk of Episode One, and furthermore, I knew it from written science fiction, not movies. Lucas didn't invent or copyright the "prequel" notion, and there's plenty of other crap to hate on him for, so let it go 

[acpracht]

Whew... thanks for the reminder that this was just the first part of a longer story. I was about to be a little mean...

-Adam

[Rain]

With all due respect to the author, the fact that it is the first part of a larger story doesnt make it any better to me, quite the opposite. There have been stories before that have felt like a first chapter of a larger story, but knowing this actually leads to a book kinda makes me wonder if the author made it incomplete on purpose.

Dont get me wrong, i thought it was good for what it was, and if the rest of the story was going to be featured on Podcastle i would look forward to it, but i just generally prefer short stories to be complete stories.

[Wilson Fowlie]

"Prequel" is anti-etymological BS Hollywoodspeak. (A sequel is part of a sequence. A prequel is not part of a prequence. Curse Lucas one more time for his terrible set of "prequels" introducing this idea into the cultural gestalt.)

Further to what stePH said about this, I got a friend of mine to look up the first known use of the word "prequel" in English, in the OED (he works at a library, so has access to that sort of thing).  They cite Anthony Boucher first using (possibly even coining!) the word in the magazine Fantasy and Science Fiction.  The sentence was:

"Year 2018! ... is the meaningless American retitling of James Blish's They Shall Have Stars ... a ‘prequel’ to Earthman Come Home."

This was in 1958.

I'm not going to argue or address the 'anti-etymologicality' of it.  However, I refer you to many posts in the fascinating blog Sesquiotica regarding what constitutes a "proper" word.

Again, the underlining gaffe may make it look like I was being more vehement than I meant.

Hopefully handy tip: You can edit your posts after they've been posted.  (If you do, it's polite to include a short note at the bottom saying why you did.  E.g. "Edited to fix formatting glitch.")

[Wilson Fowlie]

So you didn't just ignore me, you ignored Hobson?

Me? I can understand. But you should never. Ever. Ignore Hobson.

What's a Hobson? Isn't that Arthur Bach's manservant?

In case you're serious: M. K. Hobson.

Also, in the upcoming Arthur remake, Hobson is played by Helen Mirren, so not necessarily a manservant.

[kibitzer]

Also, in the upcoming Arthur remake, Hobson is played by Helen Mirren, so not necessarily a manservant.

There's a remake AUUGHHHHHHH!!

(runs away screaming)

[stePH]

Also, in the upcoming Arthur remake, Hobson is played by Helen Mirren, so not necessarily a manservant.

There's a remake AUUGHHHHHHH!!

(runs away screaming)

On the one hand, I don't see that Arthur needed to be remade.

On the other hand, Russell Brand plus Helen Mirren has a high potential of WIN.

On the gripping hand, I'll probably wait to rent the DVD.

[DKT]

So you didn't just ignore me, you ignored Hobson?

Me? I can understand. But you should never. Ever. Ignore Hobson.

What's a Hobson? Isn't that Arthur Bach's manservant?

In case you're serious: M. K. Hobson.

Also, in the upcoming Arthur remake, Hobson is played by Helen Mirren, so not necessarily a manservant.

In this case, it's the Nebula Nominated M.K. Hobson

 

[Unblinking]

Well, The Hobbit is a prologue, isn't it?  Doesn't subtract from its appeal. "Want to see more by this author" is a better praise than, say, "That was fun, now on to the next author". 

The Hobbit isn't a prologue at all, really.  A different protagonist (Bilbo rather than Frodo).  A completely different arc (go raid the dragon horde rather than save the world from the eye of Sauron).  It shares a setting and some characters, but I'd say it's definitely not a prologue.

[Unblinking]

In defense of this story... how is this different from any good short story? I've never read a short story that had time to really - really - complete a character's story arc. Short stories are too, well, short. You get it, mess around, and do stuff, the character grows, and life goes on. The best short stories evoke a sense of a larger narrative, but they don't get around to it. If they did, they wouldn't be short stories, they'd be novels.

Consider Before the Uprising, The Bear in the Cable-Knit Sweater, Terrible Ones, To Follow the Waves, and Balfour and Meriweather In the Adventure of the Emperor's Vengeance (just to name the stories on the front page), all stories that evoke a larger narrative but only tell the story they set out to. Not everything is going to be The Beautiful Coalwoman (SPOILER: He dies at the end).

I'm challenging you (and not just you - everyone else, too) on this, simply, because I don't understand how any short story would be good if "fun story, but left me wanting more" was a qualification for being bad. That's not to say there might not be things wrong with this story or ways it didn't appeal to you... but this flaw doesn't make sense to me.

Would you feel the same way if Dave hadn't mentioned that the story was a prequel?

Or, how's this: I followed the link to Amazon, and I have returned to report that the novel is not about Madog and his horse. It's (If I Recall Correctly, Sir) about two girls and their horses, one in our world and one a fantasy princess. Do you feel the same way now?

I know I feel differently - sad. I liked Madog. I would probably go pick up a book about him; I'm not so inclined to pick up an only tangentially related book by the same author. As I wrote above, I didn't so much dig her style as her characters and setting.

It's probably for the best. I have too many books, anyway.

Leaving the end of a character's arc up in the air is all well and good but this one ends just as the arc is beginning.  It's very possible to be part of a sequence and still have your own arc.  Comic books pull this off all the time, where each individual issue has an individual arc but each contributes to a much larger arc that may span several years.  Or series of books--take The Eye of the World, the first book of The Wheel of Time as an example.  It has its own arc, it's own rising and falling action it's own resolution.  Is it a completely ends-tied-up resolution?  Of course not, there are more than a dozen books that come after it.  But this arc itself is complete and has contributed to the larger arc.

It would be like if Star Wars ended as Luke Skywalker left Tatooine.  Or Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy ended as Ford and Arthur escaped the destroyed Earth.  Or LOTR ended as Frodo left the Shire.  What's behind is the mundane and familiar, the grounding against which the fantastic will be compared.  If you take away the fantastic unknown future and all of the exciting adventure sure to come with it, then I am left with a great sense of disappointment at how awesome this prologue could've been if it had been a full story.

Yes I would feel the same way if I hadn't known it had a related... well apparently my attention wandered and I missed that detail entirely.

[tinygaia]

Also, in the upcoming Arthur remake, Hobson is played by Helen Mirren, so not necessarily a manservant.

There's a remake AUUGHHHHHHH!!

(runs away screaming)

On the one hand, I don't see that Arthur needed to be remade.

On the other hand, Russell Brand plus Helen Mirren has a high potential of WIN.

On the gripping hand, I'll probably wait to rent the DVD.

I'm so glad I joined this forum. I love you guys. 

[Scattercat]

Well, it did what it said on the tin.

I just wish the tin had included the words "and the rest of the story."  This was, indeed, a tremendous amount of fun - I like me a good mythic piece, and unlike EP, I don't pine for realism and scenes if the miffic is done right - but prologues are a bane upon my existence.  I love seeing stories that set up or presage a later story, but I hate stories that don't... well, to be crotchety, have at least a nod toward the Aristotelian "ending." 

Now get off my lawn, you newfangled author kids.

(There is no such sweet pain as a really well-written prologue.)

[LaShawn]

"It's a PREQUEL!" <slap>
"It's a SEQUEL!" <slap>
"It's a PREQUEL!" <slap>
"It's a SEQUEL!" <slap>
"ALL RIGHT! IT'S A PREQUEL AND A SEQUEL! HAPPY?!" <runs off sobbing>

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

[stePH]

This was, indeed, a tremendous amount of fun - I like me a good mythic piece, and unlike EP, I don't pine for realism and scenes if the miffic is done right - but prologues are a bane upon my existence.  I love seeing stories that set up or presage a later story, but I hate stories that don't... well, to be crotchety, have at least a nod toward the Aristotelian "ending."

How about a good "prologue" whose follow-up story fails to engage? Yes, I have something particular in mind: the short story "Brothers" by C.J. Cherryh is a fine standalone, but also serves as a prologue to the novel Faery in Shadow which was one of the toughest slogs of a read I ever experienced.