Author Topic: EP280: Endosymbiont  (Read 30373 times)

eytanz

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on: February 18, 2011, 07:27:26 PM
EP280: Endosymbiont

By Blake Charlton
Read by Mur Lafferty

Originally published in Seeds of Change
---

"Do you know what day it is? What year?”

“It’s like mid August, 2017?” her voice squeaked. Jesus, had she really lost her mind?

“That’s right.” She smiled. “Don’t be scared. I just wanted to be sure.”

“What do you mean don’t be scared?” she blurted. “Sure about what? Jesus! How long have I been here? How many times have you seen me before?”

Jani held up her hand. “Slow down; it’s okay…I’m not an oncologist, but I’m following your case. The cancer responded well to the treatment. And our research suggests that the side effects are temporary.”

Stephanie started to protest but then stopped. A terrifying memory flashed through her mind. “Mom said they might take me to a hospital for the dead.” She didn’t know what that meant but the memory was clear. “She said you’d keep me here to fool me into thinking I’m still alive.”

Jani was holding up both hands now. “Slow down. The survival rates are scary but they’re far better—”

“You’re not listening. She said they’d take me to a hospital for people who’ve _already_ died. I have to escape before—”

Stephanie started to stand but Jani put a heavy hand on her shoulder and said “Lullaby.”

The word opened a bloom of orange light across Stephanie’s vision. A static hiss exploded into her ears, and she felt herself falling. There was a firecracker yellow flash and then…nothing.


Rated PG-13 For swearing (one f-bomb) and disturbing hospital images

Show Notes:

  • Feedback for Episode 272: Christmas Wedding
  • Next week… Horticulture, dermatology, and love



Listen to this week’s Escape Pod!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 10:52:17 PM by eytanz »



l33tminion

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Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 05:17:15 AM
The ending is perhaps a bit too set up as a thought-exercise for the reader.  But I like that sort of story, I suppose.

One thing I didn't quite understand:  Why did the main character make a different decision at the end of the story instead of stalling another time?  What was different from previous iterations?

Also, I feel that the third option (the one the narrator doesn't really consider) was not sufficiently explored.  Then again, if that hadn't been included, the choice would have been a bit of a But Thou Must (where the answer to "will you sacrifice yourself to help humanity?" are "yes" and "ask again later"), the main character's parents would have wanted to give her another option.



blakecharlton

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Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 12:00:31 AM
blake here. just thought i'd pop over to share for any bio geeks into the science behind the story; there's a really interesting perspective on eukaryote evolution & endosymbiosis in this month's Science:
 Alcock et al., "Tinkering Inside the Organelle" 327 (5966): 649-650 <http://www.sciencemag.org/content/327/5966/649.short>



acpracht

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Reply #3 on: February 20, 2011, 01:14:45 AM
For me, this was easily one of the best stories I've ever heard on Escape Pod.
From the intriguing first image (which pays off throughout the story) to the gradually revealed mystery to the human story that underlies it all - great stuff.
This was "The Matrix" in reverse- rather than escape the computer, the savior has to go deeper into the simulation, become more mechanical.
If I have any criticism, it's that the concept was a bit complex to follow in an audio format. But I liked having something a little deeper. The story itself was a bit how I would imagine a rattlesnake's tail would taste - thick and chewy.
-Adam



Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #4 on: February 20, 2011, 08:44:27 PM
I always did like postsingular stories.
This one was perfect.
Good world building, the slow buildup, and the final epic choice. All predictable, but all wonderful.
What really got me was the choice at the end. It was obvious that that is what she was leading up to, and since we were watching her escape from the hospital for the 16th time (and not the first) it was obvious what she was going to choose.
But I still kept hoping she would choose something else.
One thing I didn't quite understand:  Why did the main character make a different decision at the end of the story instead of stalling another time?  What was different from previous iterations?
Because every time she goes back to the hospital she loses a little bit more of herself. It's a hard decision to sacrifice everything for the good of the people, and not many people can do that. By going back to the hospital she was slowly rubbing herself out, so that there would be less to lose when she finally went back to the Source (sorry Neo). Alternatively, there was less of her to make the decision not to make the sacrifice. In any event, there was a slow constant buildup over the years until we got to this point, where she is capable of making the "correct" choice.

One thing that I particularly like about post-singularity stories is the way that humanity is now forced to face the music of not being the (third) smartest race on the planet. How do we cope with this? What kind of new challenges does it bring?
I'm happy to see that in this case humanity's fear of the unknown is sufficiently strong to shackle the new technology and prevent humanity from realizing its full potential.
This is nothing new, Asimov's US Robot and Mechanical Men company fought against the Frankenstein Complex for centuries. I sometimes wish we could all embrace new technology, but that would make for very boring fiction. So, well done on that regard.
Also the solution is unique and intriguing. I like it.

If anybody wants to read more excellent post-singularity fiction, I recommend Rudy Rucker's books Postsingular and The Ware Tetralogy, available free from Feedbooks.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 11:04:49 PM by Max e^{i pi} »

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acpracht

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Reply #5 on: February 20, 2011, 11:03:53 PM
By the way, excellent article on the Singularity and Raymond Kurzweil in the latest issue of "Time." By Lev Grossman, another of my favorite writers.
-Adam



blueeyeddevil

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Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 01:30:40 AM
Good story, and interesting if considered in part of the Escape Pod continuum. In one way, this is the counterpoint to Conditional Love This is a similar story told from the other side.

I do not wish to lessen what is good about this story by saying 'oh, this is just like something else.' Rather, by realizing the similarities of story and seeming goal between the two, a contrast may show certain qualities about the work.

This is Sophie's World, the singularity version.

[spoilers, both for this story and Sophie's World]
parallell: little girl goes through a series of interesting, if occasionally gratuitously expository, moral and philosophical self-discoveries, and then eventually realizes that she herself is an artificial construct living within a man-made form of media, which she then figures out how to escape.

This being said, the one work is a book that is a good three inches thick, while the other is a story that, when read aloud, is about an hour long. Because these stories are basically tackling the same goal, it seems inevitable that the shorter story seem a bit strained to bring the whole shebang to proper fruition.

It still works as a story, though certain gaps seem inevitable in a short work with such a big goal.



kibitzer

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Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 01:54:10 AM
Fabulous. Best story on EP for a while. I love a sci-fi story that can take some pretty mind-bending concepts and personalise them which is what happened here. Throughout, I cared about Stephanie and felt happy I could share this journey with her. I got strong sens of most of the characters, particularly Stephanie's mother and father, and I thought the scene at the end with her father's AI was so well done -- very poignant and affecting. Fantastic, in every sense!


Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 08:29:59 AM
I do not wish to lessen what is good about this story by saying 'oh, this is just like something else.' Rather, by realizing the similarities of story and seeming goal between the two, a contrast may show certain qualities about the work.

Uh, yes. That's what I meant.
The thing is, I read and listen to so much fiction that it's hard NOT to draw similarities. In my book, being compared to Isaac Asimov is one of the greatest compliments any writer can receive.
And in this case, it wasn't simply copying an old idea, but creating a new foundation (haha) for it.
A good story is about good conflict, and a good ending is good conflict resolution.
There were several conflicts here. The main one was between humanity and the machines, but no less important was the conflict between Stephanie's humanity and her desire to end the other conflict.
And I think both were resolved very nicely. As kibitzer said, that scene at the end was very powerful, very emotional. It's the mark of good character building and excellent writing.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is the best story on EP (there are so many best stories) but it's up there.

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Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 02:28:34 PM
Way too long. Could have used a good edit.



Dem

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Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 02:55:38 PM
In step, for once! This was a classy story and very well read by Mur. As virtual world technology becomes increasingly sophisticated in its capacity to generate a sense of presence and co-presence, people are beginning to think of it as an option for self preservation. Thus the considerations of what 'life' is if it isn't something that keeps a body or mind active are up for grabs, and the whole groundhog v expanded consciousness business is debated amongst folk who would otherwise never have thought about such things.
This story was so well developed that even knowing where it was going ultimately, did not detract because it was the getting there that mattered. I loved the way in which Stephanie left small hints for herself so that she accrued and retained knowledge over the time it would take for her to mature sufficiently to be able to use it. The build was subtle and unobtrusive but had the quality of strategies used to support people with short term memory loss - repeat something often enough and make it active and a little more will creep into long term memory each time.
You're one to watch, you Blake Charlton, you!

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


acpracht

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Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 07:25:07 PM
Long but worth it, in my opinion.

Try listening to StarShip Sofa sometime. Now that's long!

-Adam



blakecharlton

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Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 08:57:17 PM
okay last time the author pipes up with a bonus feature link, promise. i was asked to write a post about "writing strong women" and described how i came up with stephanie's character. so, for the curious: http://www.blakecharlton.com/2011/02/character/

okay, now i promise to shut the eff up.  ; )



Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 09:28:03 PM
okay last time the author pipes up with a bonus feature link, promise. i was asked to write a post about "writing strong women" and described how i came up with stephanie's character. so, for the curious: http://www.blakecharlton.com/2011/02/character/

OK, that was kinda cool.
Very nice.

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Dem

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Reply #14 on: February 21, 2011, 10:38:27 PM
okay last time the author pipes up with a bonus feature link, promise. i was asked to write a post about "writing strong women" and described how i came up with stephanie's character. so, for the curious: http://www.blakecharlton.com/2011/02/character/

okay, now i promise to shut the eff up.  ; )
You can drop the eff back in any time you like, for me, matey. You need a few more posts anyway, before anyone's going to take any notice. Hehe  :D

Science is what you do when the funding panel thinks you know what you're doing. Fiction is the same only without the funding.


kibitzer

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Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 01:31:01 AM
okay, now i promise to shut the eff up.  ; )

Feel free to witter on as much as you like! It's always cool when the author drops by.


raysizemore3

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Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 03:58:09 PM
Deep love for this one.  Best EP in some time.



Devoted135

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Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 05:36:05 PM
LOVED this story. Even though I knew what choice Stephanie was going to make, I grieved for her as the story unfolded in my ears. I also loved how the very first image of the snake eating its tail was woven throughout the narrative, and how bits and pieces of her previous victories poked through despite her being wiped.

It's really interesting to me to think about how the stages of grief are depicted. We learn that over the course of her time in the VR hospital, each time Stephanie made her way to anger --> loneliness she was not ready to move on yet due to the enormity of the choice before her. So, she chose to go back to the beginning (denial) and work her way through to anger and loneliness again in the hopes that next time she would be ready. It was only when enough of herself had been parsed down (and, I think, she came to terms with her situation), that she was able to face her choice head on and move forward into the next stage of her life.



Unblinking

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Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 06:08:49 PM
Most of the story was really great.  I suspected that it was a virtual world from very near the beginning when she was commenting on the conservation of mass in the Ouroboros toy, but I didn't really mind that early revelation.  I liked how she left clues for herself.  I like the room-hacking to get herself out and the convoluted manner in which she has become the only machine-bourne human mind to exist long term. 

The middle stretch of the story got a bit long.  I'm not sure that there's any way that it could've been shorter and still conveyed the important meanings, but it just seemed like a lot of explanatory dialogue that started to get on a little long.  She also seemed a bit slow to cotton on to the idea of herself becoming an organelle in the AI production--I'd assumed she'd thought of that at least 15 minutes before she actually did so when she finally realized it it seemed like old news.

If I had to pick one favorite component of it, it was probably the extremely dumb daemon nurse. 
"What is your favorite color?"
"Maybe you should ask the doctor that, sweetheart."
She reminded me of an NPC in one of those old text-based adventures.  There are certain questions for which answers are pre-set, but if you ask anything else you'll get some kind of stock disimissive answer that probably wouldn't make sense in real life.  It also made me think about jobs in which "I need to ask my manager" is the default response for anything not in the default question set, and to think about a future where all of those jobs have been terminated to be replaced by IM chatbots.  *shudder*

What I didn't get about this story, though, was the ending.  So she chose a 4th option, which was...  what?  Suicide?  She didn't want to be lonely, she didn't want to forget, and she didn't want her death to usher forward empathic AIs, so she just kills herself instead?  If she's going to choose to die, why wouldn't she choose the option that allows her death to accomplish something else at the same time?  Or did she just want to resist the choice that they wanted her to make to kick them in the nuts on her way out?  If I'm understanding the ending correctly I'm having trouble with the choice she made.  Am I completely misunderstanding what that meant?



acpracht

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Reply #19 on: February 22, 2011, 07:17:49 PM
@Unblinking - Whoah... I guess I need to go back and listen. I thought she picked door #3 at the last moment - to become an "organelle" in the computer AI. I didn't catch on to an option 4 at all... Did I mishear?

Love the connection to the NPC is a text-based game. :)



Devoted135

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Reply #20 on: February 22, 2011, 08:32:16 PM

What I didn't get about this story, though, was the ending.  So she chose a 4th option, which was...  what?  Suicide?  She didn't want to be lonely, she didn't want to forget, and she didn't want her death to usher forward empathic AIs, so she just kills herself instead?  If she's going to choose to die, why wouldn't she choose the option that allows her death to accomplish something else at the same time?  Or did she just want to resist the choice that they wanted her to make to kick them in the nuts on her way out?  If I'm understanding the ending correctly I'm having trouble with the choice she made.  Am I completely misunderstanding what that meant?


This made me question my own interpretation of the ending so I went back and re-listened to the final scene.  I'm pretty sure she chose the third option to become the next Eve by donating herself as the moral genetic code. That's why her snake bracelet/program activates when she runs through the door.



Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #21 on: February 22, 2011, 09:28:14 PM

What I didn't get about this story, though, was the ending.  So she chose a 4th option, which was...  what?  Suicide?  She didn't want to be lonely, she didn't want to forget, and she didn't want her death to usher forward empathic AIs, so she just kills herself instead?  If she's going to choose to die, why wouldn't she choose the option that allows her death to accomplish something else at the same time?  Or did she just want to resist the choice that they wanted her to make to kick them in the nuts on her way out?  If I'm understanding the ending correctly I'm having trouble with the choice she made.  Am I completely misunderstanding what that meant?


This made me question my own interpretation of the ending so I went back and re-listened to the final scene.  I'm pretty sure she chose the third option to become the next Eve by donating herself as the moral genetic code. That's why her snake bracelet/program activates when she runs through the door.

That's how I understood it too.

Also, I wanted to point out that Mur's reading was excellent (as usual), but there is one thing that bugged me.
I'm pretty sure that a computer daemon is pronounced to rhyme with Gaiman. Demons are evil little creatures with farm tools, daemons are programs that run autonomously in the background. And the pronunciation should reflect the difference.

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blakecharlton

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Reply #22 on: February 22, 2011, 09:40:07 PM
I'm pretty sure that a computer daemon is pronounced to rhyme with Gaiman. Demons are evil little creatures with farm tools, daemons are programs that run autonomously in the background. And the pronunciation should reflect the difference.

oh, that's my bad, not mur's. i didn't know that and so didn't give her the a in daemon that would have helped her out. the biomedical stuff i can pronounce; the computer science stuff, well...i was more winging that ;-)

also, my intention with the ending was to make it clear that stephanie chose the third option to become the Eve of AI, but--as they say--once a work is published, it's interpretation belongs to the readers, not the writers and all that. 



eytanz

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Reply #23 on: February 22, 2011, 09:49:34 PM
I've heard both pronunciations, used by people who code for a living, most of them with computer science degrees. I think whether you pronounce "daemon" to rhyme with "gaiman" or the same as "demon" may be dependent on where you learnt your CS skills.



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Reply #24 on: February 22, 2011, 11:43:16 PM
Great stuff (and interesting author-supplied links, too). I think the subtle start worked for me -- I wasn't really sure she was in a VR until the doctor used the code word, but it wasn't out of the blue, either. And looking back it seemed like, yeah, there's a lot of talking, but while I was reading it the ideas kept pulling me through. Character development was good too. I like the mention of ethical issues around AI.

Parts of it reminded me a little bit of Varley's "Overdrawn at the Memory Bank". But only a little. (And that was a great story anyway, so that is a good thing -- not a jaded "been done before" type comment.)

--
chuk


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Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 01:25:09 AM
I've heard both pronunciations, used by people who code for a living, most of them with computer science degrees. I think whether you pronounce "daemon" to rhyme with "gaiman" or the same as "demon" may be dependent on where you learnt your CS skills.

True. For, say, a mail d(a)emon, I would pronounce it "demon" to rhyme with... err... another word.


Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #26 on: February 23, 2011, 06:57:37 AM
I'm pretty sure that a computer daemon is pronounced to rhyme with Gaiman. Demons are evil little creatures with farm tools, daemons are programs that run autonomously in the background. And the pronunciation should reflect the difference.

oh, that's my bad, not mur's. i didn't know that and so didn't give her the a in daemon that would have helped her out. the biomedical stuff i can pronounce; the computer science stuff, well...i was more winging that ;-)

Don't apologize, say you did it on purpose. After all, Stephanie is living in her own personal hell, and the programs there are there to make her miserable, and to prevent her from escaping... :P

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Unblinking

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Reply #27 on: February 23, 2011, 02:49:45 PM
@Unblinking - Whoah... I guess I need to go back and listen. I thought she picked door #3 at the last moment - to become an "organelle" in the computer AI. I didn't catch on to an option 4 at all... Did I mishear?

Love the connection to the NPC is a text-based game. :)

Oh, maybe I misunderstood the ending.  If she chose Door #3 I can understand it then.  I thought, instead of choosing any door, she went to hug the mother avatar and the snake popped out of her pocket, made a belt for the two of them, and then blinked them out of existence with a pop.  

I've heard both pronunciations, used by people who code for a living, most of them with computer science degrees. I think whether you pronounce "daemon" to rhyme with "gaiman" or the same as "demon" may be dependent on where you learnt your CS skills.

I'm not sure.  I think "dee-muhn" is actually the correct pronunciation.  I typically say "day-muhn" but that's more so that I can keep track of which word is used.

I believe the Golden Compass movie pronounced it "dee-muhn".  Not that they're an authority on pronunciation, but there is at least a precedent.

Dictionary.com lists "dee-muhn" as the only correct pronunciation.  So, according to them at least, this story did it the only correct way.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/daemon
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 02:55:34 PM by Unblinking »



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Reply #28 on: February 23, 2011, 02:58:09 PM
Oh, I forgot to note one thing that I found amusing that doesn't have any real bearing on the quality of the story.

Did you notice that she SAYS "WTF", but she TYPES "What the Fuck"?  I found that odd in an amusing way.  It's like she has something against abbreviations--"WTF" has more syllables but less keystrokes, so most people would type WTF and say the other.



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Reply #29 on: February 23, 2011, 04:16:04 PM
As seems to be happening a lot lately, I thought I had already commented on this story, but it turns out that I have kept my thoughts to myself.

This was a fantastic story.  Perfect execution on the bulk of information that we needed to know mixed in with the very intriguing storyline of someone we really cared about.  There could very easily have been a major info dump in the middle of this story, but instead we learn things right along with Stephanie at a pace that didn't seem imposing.  A nice personalized narrative containing some far reaching concepts.  Graet stuff!

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Reply #30 on: February 23, 2011, 10:12:20 PM
I made the mistake of listening to this one on the way to work.
By about halfway I figured this could be a mistake.
By the end I was in tears trying desperatly to hide at the back of the bus.

Great story.  I think we all fear losing ourselves, and we all feel the unfairness of the world at times; and this story handles all of that well.  I liked how it raised questions as it went on like 'Ok, how does this 14 year old know so much' and then actually explains it. 

Fantastic.  Well done.

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Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 03:43:05 AM
This was an amazing story! (The reading was great as well!) It hit my top 5 from Escape Pod easily.

What i love most about this story is that it gives an alternative to the trope that humans or AI has to achieve dominance. I think that it gives a very believable endpoint to the amount of dependence that our society has on emerging technology. A similar story by David Brin tells a story where AI are raised by humans like children, in order to integrate an emerging AI sentience to our society.

I think that the cybernetic path we are already headed down: electronic vision, augmented reality, etc., that we will cross that hill before we achieve true AI.

LOVE IT! (and yes, i cried too)

And i prefer d(a)emon to rhyme with Gaiman, as it avoids the religious affiliation. (though the comment about that being her own personal hell does fit nicely)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 03:46:47 AM by kennebel »

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Reply #32 on: February 24, 2011, 08:39:06 PM
I really enjoyed the story for the issues it raised and the way it dealt with the singularity and beyond. However, I felt it went on WAY too long and Stephanie's ability to hack out of her room/simulation, while well-explained at the end, felt a little too easy in the beginning. Like, oh, here's a 14-year-old in 2017 who can hack anything in a children's hospital.

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Reply #33 on: February 25, 2011, 12:06:22 AM
YES.  OH GODS YES.

THIS is a story.

BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END.  It takes the idea, "What if the secret to creating a moral machine were an analogy with endosymbiosis?" and makes a STORY out of it.  A story with CHARACTERS rather than mere mouthpieces, with PLOT rather than mere explanation, with SETTING rather than a set.

MORE LIKE THIS.  PLEASE!




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Reply #34 on: February 25, 2011, 12:11:07 AM
I've heard both pronunciations, used by people who code for a living, most of them with computer science degrees. I think whether you pronounce "daemon" to rhyme with "gaiman" or the same as "demon" may be dependent on where you learnt your CS skills.

I'm not sure.  I think "dee-muhn" is actually the correct pronunciation.  I typically say "day-muhn" but that's more so that I can keep track of which word is used.

I believe the Golden Compass movie pronounced it "dee-muhn".  Not that they're an authority on pronunciation, but there is at least a precedent.

Dictionary.com lists "dee-muhn" as the only correct pronunciation.  So, according to them at least, this story did it the only correct way.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/daemon

Philip Pullman's own narration in the His Dark Materials audiobooks pronounces it as if it were spelled "demon".

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jenfullmoon

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Reply #35 on: February 25, 2011, 05:34:43 PM
Oh, I forgot to note one thing that I found amusing that doesn't have any real bearing on the quality of the story.
Did you notice that she SAYS "WTF", but she TYPES "What the Fuck"?  I found that odd in an amusing way.  It's like she has something against abbreviations--"WTF" has more syllables but less keystrokes, so most people would type WTF and say the other.

I think it was because she wasn't allowed to swear in the children's hospital. I think that got said at one point.

Another pronounciation link: Wikipedia on computer daemons. I actually prefer "day-mon" as a pronunciation because I have watched way too much Buffy/Angel/Supernatural and will inevitably think of "demons" as something else entirely.



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Reply #36 on: February 25, 2011, 06:15:13 PM
I found myself really enjoy the journey this story took me on. I wasn't sure I was going to like because of all the "What the Eff" parts.  was just a bit annoying but I'm also 35 and not a teen.

What I enjoyed most about this above all else, as well as recent stories, was that it was a story about positive, rather happy, ending. I enjoy dark fiction but it's nice to see a story deliver to the audiecne something that shows the good in people. While not everything worked out for the protagonist she still did something that was beneficial to society and, in the end, made her happy for what she was doing.

Reminds me of the positive future of The First Immortal.



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Reply #37 on: February 25, 2011, 08:08:27 PM
Oh, maybe I misunderstood the ending.  If she chose Door #3 I can understand it then.  I thought, instead of choosing any door, she went to hug the mother avatar and the snake popped out of her pocket, made a belt for the two of them, and then blinked them out of existence with a pop.  
I'm with Unblinking on this. I finished the story thinking "Now I have to get on the forum and ask everyone what just happened."
This one was a real downer for me. At the end, I wasn't satisfied with any of the three options presented to Stephanie (or the imaginary 4th one that Unblinking and I have cobbled together). Well told, brilliant idea, made me sad. Powerful stuff.



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Reply #38 on: February 25, 2011, 09:20:43 PM
I liked the three options, because it showed a realistically thoughtful yet not omniscient or perfectly benevolent character to her parents.

Usually parents are depicted in fiction as either having the mothering/protective instincts to 11 and that being their only way of looking at their offspring (to the point of being willing to sacrifice the world to protect their children) or as these distant God-like figures asking their children to make the ultimate sacrifice for the good of mankind (or, more usually, to fulfill the parents' ambitions). This story had a little of column A. (the door through which she'd get to live as an immortal supercomputer with full access to the global internet) and column B. (the final door that would break her down into pieces to form the SuperEgo for AI's everywhere).

I liked that her parents were really perfectly protective nor completely selfless/domineering of her, they were depicted more as distant but still human geniuses. I liked that they seemed to have given her these options not because they were the parents all kids want, the kind that just want to help you pursue your chosen path in life, but because (at least it seemed to his way to me) they genuinely had connected to their daughter for the first time by working with her on those projects after she was already dead.

The whole part where she summarizes her relationship with her mother by "she loves me because I posed interesting ideas" was the real clincher on this aspect of the story for me - it's a great tale about Geek Parents.

Whereas the ideal is that parents will give their kids options and support them in choosing their own path rather than try to live through them vicariously and project the their (the parents') ambitions on the children, Geek Parents give their kids all those options because they want to live vicariously through something they can neither predict nor anticipate - they do it because it is a grand experiment.


« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 09:23:01 PM by NoNotRogov »



JoeFitz

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Reply #39 on: February 28, 2011, 02:58:53 AM
... Usually parents are depicted in fiction as either having the mothering/protective ...

Very well said. These parents felt very real and human.

Very enjoyable story. I found it dragged just a little in the middle and the "hacking" bugged me. But the ideas! Great stuff.



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Reply #40 on: February 28, 2011, 05:57:21 AM
I literally yelled 'what?' when it was revealed that post humans were deleted. Seriously. I could not buy that at all. Surely there would be massive opposition to that. Post humans are surely still human enough to not be simply deleted without moral qualm. surely whole tracts of humanity would object. Maybe even more that the anti-singularity folks.

I managed to get over this after a while and really enjoyed the story. The other thing that bothered me was that the third option wasn't really explored at all. It was dismissed as lonely and not really touched upon at all. It seemed to have been put in as an afterthought because the choice to either die now or later seemed a little unfair. Surely the MC would find this, in some way, appealing. Essentially immortality. she would be a god of her own supercomputer. I'd love for that idea to be explored a little more.

I was also a little confused as to what had changed between this time and the others to make her chose the 3rd option. It seemed rather arbitrary that she should choose differently this time (the only reason seemed to be narrative convenience)

Even so, really good story that engaged me and made me think about the ramifications of the singularity. Good characters, fascinating plot, interesting setting. Loved it. Will no doubt listen again.


Darwinist

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Reply #41 on: February 28, 2011, 12:44:35 PM
I really liked this one.  I had no idea where it was going until the very end.  Ended up re-listening to the last 10 minutes because I wasn't sure if I "got" it the first time. Excellent stuff. 

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


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Reply #42 on: February 28, 2011, 11:00:19 PM
OK, I must be missing something obvious here.  I've not read much "post singularity" sf.  (I actually had to look up the reference when it appeared on the cover of one of my IEEE magazines.)

How can Stephanie's "stripped down" artifical mind possess this theoretical "genetic morality" when it is presupposed that her full artificial mind does not possess it in the first place?  How can the part possess a feature that the whole does not?

If it is supposed to somehow "evolve" after her mind is "stripped down":
1)  why couldn't it evolve in situ in her own mind?
2)  what forces in a virtual world would shape this evolution?

In my opinion, there are really only two choices:  door number one or death.  In door number two she is basically a virtual zombie and in door number three she gets a virtual labotomy.  For those wondering about why she kept choosing door number two:  Time for the situation to change and another option to present itself.

Interestingly, door number one is never presented as an option to door number three.  If she could exist for fifty or a hundred years on her own without (what?  Becoming Skynet and nuking mankind?) might that present anecdotal evidence that the "genetic morality" assertion is false?

My two cents.  OK, more like a dime.  Sorry.



Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #43 on: March 01, 2011, 08:35:47 AM
How can Stephanie's "stripped down" artifical mind possess this theoretical "genetic morality" when it is presupposed that her full artificial mind does not possess it in the first place?  How can the part possess a feature that the whole does not?

We never hear that her mind does not posses the "genetic morality". The way I understood the conflict was like this:
Intelligences that evolve purely within a machine, meaning they do not come from a person, would not posses any morality. When that happens, we get Skynet.
People who's minds have been uploaded to a machine will at some point evolve beyond their current mental state. Minds evolve much faster than bodies do. Different stimulus on a mind forces it to react in different ways. The best example we see is that Stephanie's mind has evolved well past her 14 year old state.
Now, the fear here is that a person's mind can evolve so far away from its original humanity that it loses its morality, and we get Skynet again.
That is why any mind that is deemed to be post-human is destroyed, out of fear. (I'm not justifying that position, just explaining it as I understood it from the story).
Now, Stephanie's mind has been in a computer for the longest time ever. She fell between the chairs. She is living(?) proof that a post-human mind does NOT (always) lose its morality. So there is no fear of Skynet from her.
And yet, there could be future Skynet from others. What she does is to introduce genetic morality into the internet. And we all know that stuff on the internet spreads like wildfire. So, any intelligence evolving after that point (whether it started off as human or not) will encounter this morality and use it. Thus preventing Skynet and allowing the humans to trust the machines.

If it is supposed to somehow "evolve" after her mind is "stripped down":
1)  why couldn't it evolve in situ in her own mind?
2)  what forces in a virtual world would shape this evolution?
Stephanie's mind must be stripped down, because it cannot fit in its entirety in the public system. She spent many years writing a piece of code that will strip her mind down enough to let it fit, and yet keep her morality intact, so that that is the part that gets sent into the system. That's the snake.
Another way of looking at it: By consuming her, at the end, the snake removed Stephanie's morality from her own consciousness and injected it into the system. What remained of Stephanie's mind was destroyed by the action of removing her morality, or perhaps in order to prevent a mind without morality from existing.
The evolutionary steps from here are quite simple. An intelligence containing the morality gene will be allowed to live, those without it will die (purged by the humans). Therefore any intelligence that is to survive must contain the morality gene. At some point, ALL intelligences will contain the gene.
A method of virtual reproduction in intelligences I have seen explored in various post-singular fiction that I find quite plausible is this: two entities meet and copy random pieces of code from themselves onto a third template that they create. This is their offspring. Code swapping like this allows for artificial intelligences to grow end evolve, and the same rules that govern biology work here, those best suited to their environments survive. It's just that here, a generation is a few nanoseconds. So they evolve fast.
But in any event, now we see how the morality code will be embedded in every intelligence not human to exist from here on out.

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Bdoomed

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Reply #44 on: March 02, 2011, 07:57:02 AM
Wonderful story!  The explanation bit between Stephanie and Mandela confused me a bit, but I understood the basic premises and end result, so the parts lost in translation did not harm the story in my opinion.

I also feel that there would be massive upheaval over the deletion of posthumans, however it has been 50 years since the issue first arose, I would guess that in that time a conclusion would have been established, even if it was not favorable to everyone.  An issue like that and fears like that would permeate the political spectrum, children would be born into those opinions and develop new opinions and thought processes of their own on the subject.  I can see how the deletion conclusion could be reached.

Adding/critiquing to what Max e^{i pi} said, I don't think Stephanie's mind is 'proof that a post-human does not always lose its morality', rather she is an anomaly whereby the evolution of her program was continued while the mindset was preserved.  Over the 50 years, her mind evolved yet she stayed the little girl.  The farce was designed in such a way as to prevent her morality from escaping her.  It was a matter of whittling the parts of her that feared death down to a point where she could sacrifice herself.  She had to fully realize and understand that she was already dead, that she would gain more by sacrifice than by stalling the inevitable.  This wasn't something they could force on her, however, as her parents loved her too much, and the morality had to develop in tandem with the mind, to be compatible with it (I assume).  Over the 50 years in the server, her moral mind evolved alongside her computer mind, even if she was unconscious of it.

That's my take, at least.  I really enjoyed this story, it's definitely one of my favorites.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #45 on: March 03, 2011, 01:49:28 AM
I also feel that there would be massive upheaval over the deletion of posthumans, however it has been 50 years since the issue first arose, I would guess that in that time a conclusion would have been established, even if it was not favorable to everyone.  An issue like that and fears like that would permeate the political spectrum, children would be born into those opinions and develop new opinions and thought processes of their own on the subject.  I can see how the deletion conclusion could be reached.

I'm probably being over-picky here, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't think there'd be much of an outcry of deletion. I think the majority of the population would neither understand nor sympathise with uploaded consciousness and in 50 years you'd only be beginning to see glimmers of sympathy. Think about any controversial issue -- slavery, suffrage, homosexual marriage -- and the amount of time each took to become an accepted norm. Society fears what it does not understand and uploaded consciousness would be far from the norm.


Bdoomed

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Reply #46 on: March 03, 2011, 05:49:17 AM
Yes, but on the other hand, people like having something to be angry about.  You know there would be that one person who knows about it, who gets a bug up his butt, and is able to convince a large population of the same.

Another argument?  Let's see... who would sympathize with uploaded consciousnesses...?  Parents, perhaps?  Lovers, husbands, wives, children?  Raise enough of an outcry, attract the press, and boom.  National issue.  I'm not saying that it's bound to happen, I'm saying it's incredibly plausible.  Your interpretation is, however, just as plausible.  In the case of the story, however, I'm guessing there was upheaval.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


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Reply #47 on: March 03, 2011, 02:24:40 PM
I loved this one, and most of my questions were answered by the end, such as "A 14 year old that can hack everything in a hospital?"  However, there was one trip up for my brain.  It is stated that the anti-singularity movement "could not block technology that was saving lives", when in reality, extremists, and sometimes not so extremists block life saving technology all the time.  Case in point:  Stem Cells.

ETA:  There's been a rash of hospital based stories on both Podcastle and Escapepod lately.  Interesting coincidence?

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Gamercow

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Reply #48 on: March 03, 2011, 02:28:18 PM
Think about any controversial issue -- slavery, suffrage, homosexual marriage -- and the amount of time each took to become an accepted norm. Society fears what it does not understand and uploaded consciousness would be far from the norm.

What about euthanasia?  Think back to the woman in the US that was on life support for X years, and her husband wanted to put her to sleep, but her parents resisted, or vice versa.  That story was news for weeks, and most of modern society still hasn't come to terms with human euthanasia, which is very similar to deleting uploaded consciousness. 

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Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #49 on: March 03, 2011, 03:13:30 PM
What about euthanasia?  [clipped] and most of modern society still hasn't come to terms with human euthanasia, which is very similar to deleting uploaded consciousness. 
I tend to disagree, euthanasia is very different from deleting uploaded consciousness, and the argument can go both ways:

The question about euthanasia is a lot harder to deal with, because you see a living (for some definitions of alive) human being lying on the hospital bed in front of you. How can you kill this person? It is tantamount to murder. However, a consciousness in a computer? That person is dead! Their body has been buried/cremated/preserved! I'm just deleting a computer program. And anyway, there is no evidence that that is the person's consciousness. It could simply be a program designed to act like a person. Therefore deleting it is not murder, however euthanasia is.

OR

I support euthanasia, that person is brain dead. All that's left here is an empty husk of biological functions being kept from entropy by mechanical means. There is no reason to continue providing life support to this dead body. However, if the consciousness of this person were uploaded to a computer... then that person is still alive! For that is what we are, our minds! Deleting a consciousness from a computer is murder.

I'm not sure how I feel on either case, euthanasia or deleting minds from a computer, I just know that I can present arguments for both in either direction.

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Gamercow

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Reply #50 on: March 03, 2011, 07:29:34 PM
I guess you're right, the bigger fight would be to get the consciousnesses uploaded in the first place.  Which I alluded to in my original post.

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Reply #51 on: March 05, 2011, 08:22:20 PM
 :) Another winner.  This was a bit wordy and/or a tad overly long.  Lots of exposition, but well done with lots to think about.  I'm not normally a fan of "singularity" and post-human stories - I think because the characters are so in-human- but I liked this because the post-human was still very human and faced a difficult human choice.  Once the need for an ethical Eve was laid out I knew she would do it.  There wouldn't have been much point to the story if it was one of her earlier escapes where she decided to return to the virtual hospital.  Despite the memory wipes, I think she was growing up a little more each cycle  and this was finally ready to make the choice to sacrefice herself.  The other possibility mentioned by other commenters is probably also true that she lost a little more of her personality each time as well.



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Reply #52 on: March 05, 2011, 08:41:49 PM
I really enjoyed this story. It had all of the elements of interesting Sci Fi and the interesting post-singularity issues were developed and presented nicely. What bothered me about this story and stories with similar endings is that I don't understand why a choice was necessary. She was digital. There's no reason why one digital stream couldn't be sent to that underground repository while an identical digital stream was sent off to create morality for a new generation of digital consciousnesses. When you're digital, you can have your cake and eat it, too, although you may not be able to taste it.



eytanz

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Reply #53 on: March 06, 2011, 12:12:19 AM
I really enjoyed this story. It had all of the elements of interesting Sci Fi and the interesting post-singularity issues were developed and presented nicely. What bothered me about this story and stories with similar endings is that I don't understand why a choice was necessary. She was digital. There's no reason why one digital stream couldn't be sent to that underground repository while an identical digital stream was sent off to create morality for a new generation of digital consciousnesses. When you're digital, you can have your cake and eat it, too, although you may not be able to taste it.

Therein lies the rub, really. The story made ostensibly about a post-human conciousness running on a server, but it really treated her mind more like a soul; not only could she not have multiple copies existing at the same time, there was a strong sense of continuity between her different iterations. In reality, if the government controlled her servers they don't need to delete anything from her memories - why not just reset her to a backup state?

Not that any of that detracted from my enjoyment of the story, mind you. Taken as a story, it was really, really great. It's just that I think that in addition to the philosophical implications it was intended to raise, it has a whole set of unintended ones that probably nullify a serious discussion of the first.



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Reply #54 on: March 07, 2011, 08:02:40 PM
Re: the point raised jointly by jonro/eytanz:

Wow.  Why didn't I see that before?

I think it's a testament to the writing that it so handily distracted from that particular issue, although perhaps the author intended that the amount of memory required to run the full uploaded consciousness be much of the answer to that.

Realizing this issue doesn't detract from my having enjoyed the story, of course, but now I wouldn't be able to listen to it the same way again.  (Not that I really could have, but this enhances the effect.)

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Reply #55 on: March 07, 2011, 08:09:56 PM
That's a fair point, one that's often ignored by stories involving consciousnesses stored in a computer.  It certainly makes sense to make backups of consciousnesses, but it rathe takes away from the tension if you know this is possible.



Bdoomed

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Reply #56 on: March 08, 2011, 02:52:28 AM
Could be a RAM problem :P
Not enough working memory to copy something that large?  :D  Just a thought.

I'd like to hear my options, so I could weigh them, what do you say?
Five pounds?  Six pounds? Seven pounds?


Max e^{i pi}

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Reply #57 on: March 08, 2011, 07:34:52 AM
Could be a RAM problem :P
Not enough working memory to copy something that large?  :D  Just a thought.
Even today it is possible to copy huge files (several hundred gigs large) to and from file systems that support such files with only a single gig of RAM. That's not the issue.
I think it may be that whenever digital data is transmitted in any form or fashion errors can creep into it from stray EM fields, or even the EM field generated by the very wire it's traveling on. True that there exist error detection and elimination protocols, but would you want to risk that with someone's mind?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 07:36:40 AM by Max e^{i pi} »

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eytanz

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Reply #58 on: March 08, 2011, 07:54:47 AM
Could be a RAM problem :P
Not enough working memory to copy something that large?  :D  Just a thought.

At the end of the story, she's on server A and has the choice of being transferred over to server B or server C (one of those involves only a partial copy). Thus, we know server A can contain her and do the transfer. Even if RAM considerations would prevent her from being copied to both at the same time, I don't think RAM can explain why she cannot be transferred to server B while keeping her on server A as well, ready to be trasnferred to server C afterwards.

Again, as I said above and as Wilson said, this nitpick didn't diminish my enjoyment of the story while listening to it; but in a deeper analysis of the story, it's possible to see that while it talked a lot (in vague terms) about differences between an embodied human conciousness and an uploaded one, it didn't really acknowledge some of the basic properties of what being on a digital medium would mean.



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Reply #59 on: March 08, 2011, 02:36:04 PM
Could be a RAM problem :P
Not enough working memory to copy something that large?  :D  Just a thought.

At the end of the story, she's on server A and has the choice of being transferred over to server B or server C (one of those involves only a partial copy). Thus, we know server A can contain her and do the transfer. Even if RAM considerations would prevent her from being copied to both at the same time, I don't think RAM can explain why she cannot be transferred to server B while keeping her on server A as well, ready to be trasnferred to server C afterwards.

Again, as I said above and as Wilson said, this nitpick didn't diminish my enjoyment of the story while listening to it; but in a deeper analysis of the story, it's possible to see that while it talked a lot (in vague terms) about differences between an embodied human conciousness and an uploaded one, it didn't really acknowledge some of the basic properties of what being on a digital medium would mean.

I agree that it doesn't really seem to have any technical reasoning behind it. I think it's just handwaved away for literary reasons because acknowledging this could reduce the tension.



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Reply #60 on: March 14, 2011, 05:25:29 AM
Wife and I listened to this one tonight on our way home from visiting relatives. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I didn't like it, but it felt more like an effort to explain a concept to the reader (well, listener) than it did a fully realized story. I guess it'd be hard to make this one without spending so much time on the fiddly bits, but there's really not a whole lot going on in it.

Someone else mentioned that they weren't sure what was different about the last time where she did not choose to go back to the hospital. I would've liked a better explanation for that too. You can make an argument that no matter the door, she was just choosing a different way to die. I didn't see what the great appeal was of her choice in the end.

Edit: One last nitpick. Can we stop comparing Asian peoples' eyes to almonds? Why isn't there an opposite to this? "Doctor O'Malley narrowed his hazelnut eyes."
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 05:36:35 PM by Faraway Ray »


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Reply #61 on: March 16, 2011, 05:54:54 PM
Hey, got around to hearing this one late, as it seems I've been doing too often of late.

I liked this story a lot.  I wasn't 100% on-board for the first five or ten minutes and then the unpronouncable doctor uttered "Lullaby" and BOOM!  I was laser-focused til the end.  I liked this one a lot, and the implications it had for a technology singularity were ones I'd never considered.  Very original, and very well written.



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Reply #62 on: March 17, 2011, 01:38:33 AM
I wasn't 100% on-board for the first five or ten minutes and then the unpronounceable doctor uttered "Lullaby" and BOOM!  I was laser-focused til the end.

So you're saying "Lullaby" is your trigger-word, too?


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Reply #63 on: March 21, 2011, 11:38:49 PM
I decided that the discussion of almonds, eyes, and science has grown to the point where it deserves its own thread, so I gave it one. You can find that discussion here if you wish to read or contribute to it.



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Reply #64 on: March 22, 2011, 03:58:14 PM
Wow. It's not often that I care for stories that have two people talking about scientific stuff that go over my head, but this story pulled it off very well. Still got a little lost, but I found myself caring for what the MC was going through. I also liked how the story tied emotions to the science, as well as her relationship with her parents, particularly her mother. Very touching.

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