Author Topic: EP282: You’re Almost Here  (Read 30687 times)

eytanz

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on: March 04, 2011, 07:04:04 PM
EP282: You’re Almost Here

By Melinda Thielbar
Read by Mur Lafferty

---
A&E are offering us a prize pack for a random drawing! So US residents, please email feedback at escapepod.org and put CONTEST in the subject line. We’ll do a drawing next week!

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Text coming soon

Rated PG-13 This story contains one F-bomb.

Show Notes:

  • Feedback for Episode 274
  • Next week… The grandfather paradox rears its violent head.



Listen to this week’s Escape Pod!


« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 07:11:51 PM by eytanz »



stePH

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Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 08:18:20 PM
Holy shit, that was bleak.

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-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


ElectricPaladin

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Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 08:22:18 PM
So, this story didn't really do it for me. I'm not honestly convinced by the arguments that the present is that much worse than the past. These arguments have literally been repeated for as long as recorded history - there are records of ancient greeks complaining that this new fangled habit of writing things down is going to ruin everyone's memories.

And you know what? It did... but the habit continued because we got something better, more effective, more efficient, and more fulfilling.

Is the future going to be different? Of course. That's the point. Are we going to communicate, create, and connect in the same ways we have? Of course not. The only thing constant is change. Are we going to stop communicating, creating, and connecting? Definitely not. Those are fundamentally human things to do. The tools and methods will change, but the content will not.

That said, despite falling into a fallacy I find annoying, this was a very well-written story. Second person is a highly underrated style. As a writer, I definitely grasped the angst of the main character's situation.

Also, I'm the king under the mountain ;).

EDIT: Except for stePH :(.

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stePH

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Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 08:25:27 PM
EDIT: Except for stePH :(.

 ??? I'm not sure which part of your post this refers to.

(PS: When is Norm going to acknowledge that Bill Peters is now Assistant Editor?)

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eytanz

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Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 08:35:28 PM
EDIT: Except for stePH :(.

 ??? I'm not sure which part of your post this refers to.

(PS: When is Norm going to acknowledge that Bill Peters is now Assistant Editor?)

I think the "king under the mountain" is some sort of "first post" thingie, so he means you got there first.



stePH

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Reply #5 on: March 04, 2011, 09:09:56 PM
EDIT: Except for stePH :(.

 ??? I'm not sure which part of your post this refers to.

(PS: When is Norm going to acknowledge that Bill Peters is now Assistant Editor?)

I think the "king under the mountain" is some sort of "first post" thingie, so he means you got there first.

Ah... I guess I should have posted, BOOBIES!  :P

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
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tinygaia

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Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 09:50:16 PM
I’m with stePH on this one. Bleak! I’ve had those days where I’m only going through the motions and wondering “Why am I doing all this again?” but it seemed like this guy was living in a perpetual state of that. It's the hopelessness of knowing you've been rendered irrelevant.

I’m disturbed by the attitude that it’s hopeless because all the original ideas are taken. Of course they’re taken! According to one of my old professors, there are only six plots in the universe, reused over and over again. That doesn’t mean we stop creating, though it does lend credibility to the idea of a computer program that could crank out a bestselling novel.

When the machines handle all of our art for us, that’s when our robot overlords have well and truly won – Watson’s Jeopardy adventures were merely a prelude to our inevitable demise. Every time iTunes tells me what I’m going to like and it’s right about it, we’re that much closer to SkyNet.



Scattercat

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Reply #7 on: March 04, 2011, 10:23:49 PM
Okay, unusually for me, I have to say that I really, really dislike this story.  I read it in Bull Spec, actually, and hated it there.  I listened all the way through the audio, in case it got better a second time through, but I'm afraid the fiery hatred still burst out of every pore and turned me into a shrieking, laughing, Nicholas-Cagean maniac.

I really hate this story.

Specifically, I hate the protagonist, and his smarmy, smug hipsterism.  Yes, Writer Man, ONLY YOU see through the fakery.  ONLY YOU are the secret master of literacy who can duplicate commercial products with your amazing skill and become like unto a god, and it is only your forbearance and disinterested attitude that keeps you from exercising your power, for after all, what use are those mortal trinkets compared to your ART?  And naturally, that Art is far, far too fine and elegant for the crass world to every understand or appreciate.

I hate this man because I recognize that attitude.  I had it, once.  I thought that I was better than everyone, smarter than everyone, and that the only reason I didn't win every academic award was because I didn't feel like trying hard enough.  I made it out of that morass and learned a little bit about reality, but it was a hard and bitter struggle, and I was a god-damned worthless slug of a human being while it was going on.  I'm still pretty damned arrogant; this is me AFTER I learned humility, to give you an idea of how insufferable I was.

I hate the story because it coddles this self-absorbed little twit.  It creates a world for him in which he really is special, in which he really could be the greatest writer ever, if he but stretched out his hand to take it.  It glorifies his quirks into signs of deep wisdom and sings paeans to his inability to say hello to a freaking woman at a coffee-shop because he is so sensitive.

The story looks at pop culture and remix culture and sneers.  Derivative tripe, it says, but then, it's what everyone wants.  The Philistines.  Real artists, true creatives, are above that, on a separate plane, and only pulled down into the muddle because the world is inescapable.  The story sighs wistfully at the thought of the pure Art that might be if only the world recognized its genius, if only it were left alone to tap that magical solitary ability it has to touch a higher level.  On behalf of all of the pop culture makers, the singers and writers and artists who work hard on that crappy third-tier sitcom, on that commercial for absorbent wipes, on that bouncy teenybopper song, nuts to that noise.  Real art IS derivative, because real art, art that speaks to people, art that has something to say and the ability to let people hear it, is art that is made OF and WITH the world, connected to it and spun of its fabric.  Art is a conversation, not some Platonic ideal.  I often remark that the last truly original statement was, "Let there be light," and everything since then has been building on what went before.  (And frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if He'd cribbed it from some other universe.)

I struggle with this even now, because I've got kind of an offbeat sensibility about things, and the stories I write tend to go over peoples' heads.  THIS IS NOT A STRENGTH, BUT A WEAKNESS.  If I can't write in a way that people understand, then I might as well not write at all.  Those who love me tell me that I'm just "smarter" or "better" or whatever, and God help me but I want to believe that, I do, and I get angry when people say, "I don't get it.  What did this mean?" in response to something I think is clear.  When I recover from that, I regard it as a failure, a lapse on my part, because there is no such thing as art that is too good to be understood, too refined to be appreciated, too original to be successful.  

I get so angry about this story because of this tendency of mine, because it would be so easy and so pleasant to tell myself that it's not my fault if my stories get rejected, it's just those darn ignoramuses who can't appreciate my genius.  It's painful to me to have to constantly fight off that mindset and remind myself that if people don't get my stories, it's my fault rather than theirs.  And I hate having to see a world such as the one in this story that whispers that seductive refrain in my ear, that tells me I'm special, I'm smart, I'm too good for them.  I hate pushing that away because I want it so badly to be true...

...and I know that it isn't.

Sorry about this, y'all.  Ms. Thielbar, please accept my apologies; you did not intend this message, I'm sure, and it is unreasonable to expect that you would foresee my reactions.  I seriously disagree with this story's organizing theme.  (And I'm not wild about the motifs; I tend to feel that anyone who can't find their quiet space because of all the technology and gadgets around them is the proverbial shoddy dancer placing the blame on the floor.)  I think remixing and deriving new material is the core of art, not its death, and this story bothers me deeply because of that, beyond my irrational dislike for the protagonist (exacerbated by the use of the second person telling me that I'm like him when I have fought so hard to get away from that place).
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 09:07:31 AM by Scattercat »



HomespunDreamer

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Reply #8 on: March 05, 2011, 12:05:15 AM
This was stunningly original... LOL
It looks like others didn't... but I really, really enjoyed this story. It's different, very different, than most. I like the 2nd person, and the familiar strangeness of it all.



stePH

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Reply #9 on: March 05, 2011, 01:14:57 AM
I’m disturbed by the attitude that it’s hopeless because all the original ideas are taken. Of course they’re taken! According to one of my old professors, there are only six plots in the universe, reused over and over again. That doesn’t mean we stop creating, though it does lend credibility to the idea of a computer program that could crank out a bestselling novel.

Actually, what I always think of is The Thirtysix Dramatic Situations as catalogued by Georges Polti.

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Unblinking

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Reply #10 on: March 05, 2011, 03:03:27 PM
I'll comment more later, but if anyone wants to read the text version, you can get a PDF of Bull Spec #3 with Melinda's story here--you can opt out of the donation if you prefer:
http://www.bullspec.com/eorder?item_choice=3

(I have a story in that issue as well, as well as Lavie Tidhar and Katherine Sparrow if that gives you more incentive to check it out)



blueeyeddevil

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Reply #11 on: March 05, 2011, 05:21:37 PM
I didn't hate this story. I didn't like this story. I didn't think there was anything special about this story.

I don't personally have a name for this style of a story, though I guess I could label it a 'slippery slope' or an 'ad absurdam' story, because that seems to be the basic idea behind the story structure; i.e. take a current phenomenon, be it cultural, social, or technological, then apply it categorically to everything you can concieve of that it possibly could be applied to, and a few that it probably couldn't. Ta-dahh, you have a story.

This is not to denigrate the story, this form is tried, true, and something of a useful barometer for perceptions about culture.

Within this particular story, perhaps because of the subject, the old issue (and I think the issue is almost as old as writing) of creativity-within-the-framework-of-the-known has come up. The writing program in the story seems to me to be a glaringly obvious metaphor for the use of writing formulas. I don't see much difference between the protagonist of this story agonizing about the success of his writing program and any other story about a successful creator of any other sort wondering if he/she is just doing the same thing over and over.
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).

Apropriately, this story is just another part of a web of derivative works. There's nothing wrong with this fact.



Talia

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Reply #12 on: March 05, 2011, 06:25:04 PM
An interesting jaunt into a (barely) future world. I didn't follow the protagonist's personal journey too closely; mostly what I enjoyed were all the little intriguing details of this world.



blueeyeddevil

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Reply #13 on: March 05, 2011, 07:32:21 PM
The story looks at pop culture and remix culture and sneers.  Derivative tripe, it says, but then, it's what everyone wants.  The Philistines.  Real artists, true creatives, are above that, on a separate plane, and only pulled down into the muddle because the world is inescapable.  The story sighs wistfully at the thought of the pure Art that might be if only the world recognized its genius, if only it were left alone to tap that magical solitary ability it has to touch a higher level.  On behalf of all of the pop culture makers, the singers and writers and artists who work hard on that crappy third-tier sitcom, on that commercial for absorbent wipes, on that bouncy teenybopper son, nuts to that noise.  Real art IS derivative, because real art, art that speaks to people, art that has something to say and the ability to let people hear it, is art that is made OF and WITH the world, connected to it and spun of its fabric.  Art is a conversation, not some Platonic ideal.  I often remark that the last truly original statement was, "Let there be light," and everything since then has been building on what went before.  (And frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if He'd cribbed it from some other universe.)

I struggle with this even now, because I've got kind of an offbeat sensibility about things, and the stories I write tend to go over peoples' heads.  THIS IS NOT A STRENGTH, BUT A WEAKNESS.  If I can't write in a way that people understand, then I might as well not write at all.  Those who love me tell me that I'm just "smarter" or "better" or whatever, and God help me but I want to believe that, I do, and I get angry when people say, "I don't get it.  What did this mean?" in response to something I think is clear.  When I recover from that, I regard it as a failure, a lapse on my part, because there is no such thing as art that is too good to be understood, too refined to be appreciated, too original to be successful. 

I imagine starting in here will send this veering dangerously toward split-threaddom, but so be it.
I think all the positive claims made here are true, but I don't think their inverse is necessarily false.

 I am convinced that the English language and the culture which surrounds it is terribly insufficient in that it has:
One. Little. Three-lettered. Word.
to encompass all of what may be conceived of as Art. To boil down the salient parts of the argument:
Art is personal. Art is communal. Art is explicit. Art is abstract. Art is cathartic. Art is balanced. Art is what we say it is. Art is what experts say it is. Art speaks to people on a personal level. Art causes deep discomfort and revulsion in the consumer. Art stimulates thought. Art transports the consumer to a place beyond thought. Art needs an audience. Art needs no audience.
Aaaaand, anything wishing to call itself Art only need meet one or any combination of these descriptors. 
Oh, yes, I almost forgot what brought us here: Popular success proves/disproves the value of a piece of Art.

If you want to do this sort of thing professionally, then accessibility is clearly going to be your byword. This doesn’t mean that the struggle to do something more shouldn’t take place. This is the only single factor that I think is defensible as a criterion for artistic creation: if it’s easy, you’re probably not doing it right.

It is of little comfort to Melville (who died destitute) that the work that ruined him is now considered not only his greatest work but one of the great pieces of western literature.  This doesn’t mean we should wish for a world without ‘Moby Dick’ (or whatever other piece you wish to name, if MD isn’t your cup of tea). Yes, good art may be considered accessable, yet that doesn't mean it was accessable at the moment is was created. Any creator needs to struggle with this, suffer with this, there's no cure for it.

Also, works that looks at things and sneeringly says ‘derivative tripe’ are important, because, sometimes, they're right. Yes, yes, nothing is really right or wrong in terms of taste, but the consensus does eventually consign things to the scrapheap of history, and critical works are part of that process. Critical works are also part of the process that elevates something to the immortal, arguments made are sometimes arguments defeated. Sometimes things really are derivative crap, sometimes someone really is smarter than everyone else (or at least everyone who’s bothering to think on the subject). 

Though, admittedly, people who claim this are usually just annoying poseurs.



SF.Fangirl

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Reply #14 on: March 05, 2011, 08:45:24 PM
I didn't hate this story. I didn't like this story. I didn't think there was anything special about this story.

I don't personally have a name for this style of a story, though I guess I could label it a 'slippery slope' or an 'ad absurdam' story, because that seems to be the basic idea behind the story structure; i.e. take a current phenomenon, be it cultural, social, or technological, then apply it categorically to everything you can concieve of that it possibly could be applied to, and a few that it probably couldn't. Ta-dahh, you have a story.

This is not to denigrate the story, this form is tried, true, and something of a useful barometer for perceptions about culture.

Yeah, what BlueEyedDevil said. I didn't like it, but I didn't hate it as much as last week's.  It may help that it was shorter and I didn't at all have a "you wasted my time" feeling, but I quickly put it out of my head and couldn't quite remember what it was about.  The only part I liked was the start when the girl of his dreams sat down with him because all the other seats were full and proceeded to ignore him.  Once he left the coffee house, the story did nothing for me at all and was quickly forgotten.



Darwinist

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Reply #15 on: March 05, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
Yeah, what BlueEyedDevil said. I didn't like it, but I didn't hate it as much as last week's.  It may help that it was shorter and I didn't at all have a "you wasted my time" feeling, but I quickly put it out of my head and couldn't quite remember what it was about.  The only part I liked was the start when the girl of his dreams sat down with him because all the other seats were full and proceeded to ignore him.  Once he left the coffee house, the story did nothing for me at all and was quickly forgotten.

I'll third this motion.  I shrugged after it was over and it was quickly forgotten.  It kept my company on my commute.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.    -  Carl Sagan


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Reply #16 on: March 06, 2011, 06:56:58 AM
I'm entirely on the opposite side of this story from Scattercat, and I think I explain say why in responding to this:

"I hate the story because it coddles this self-absorbed little twit.  It creates a world for him in which he really is special, in which he really could be the greatest writer ever, if he but stretched out his hand to take it.  It glorifies his quirks into signs of deep wisdom and sings paeans to his inability to say hello to a freaking woman at a coffee-shop because he is so sensitive."

That's the thing -- it doesn't. It doesn't at all. Let's talk about just the coffee shop. The protag has a chance to meet the woman of their dream and doesn't, retreating into observation, defeat, and then cowardly retreat, and that's the only opportunity for human contact in the story, squandered. (The protag's got a job where they know even their editor doesn't read their stuff, their interaction with readers is abstracted and faked.)

They're not the greatest writer ever, or at least, they're certainly not willing to confront that and take a chance, in exactly the same way they discard the shot at social connections. Instead, just as the moment with the woman is wasted, the potential of writing in their true voice is discarded, notebook by notebook, for the comfort of generic writing. Instead, they've gone to great lengths to reinforce their own disdain for their work, taking some pride in the sophistication while damning themselves for the effort.

The protag probably tells themselves that they could meet that women of their dreams if only everyone wasn't so introverted in exactly the same voice they assure themselves that they could be a great writer if only everyone wasn't so obsessed with remix culture.

It doesn't coddle the protag. It's merciless to them. And at least for me, it shakes me because it's a bleak reality not far-drawn from the present, and because I see myself making those exact kind of rationalizations, when in total, if all of us compromise and shirk, those rationalizations lead to exactly the kind of bleak world the protag lives in.

Disclaimer: I loved this story.



Scattercat

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Reply #17 on: March 06, 2011, 09:02:30 AM
@blueeyeddevil

There are critics, and that sort of guidepost is indeed useful, and then there is a stymied artist who blames the world for not understanding his/her genius when that isn't the problem at all.  Art that isn't accessible might well find its time and place later (such as "Moby Dick") and there is a huge luck factor in which bits become important and which don't.  However, the story seems to take the tack that true artistic genius is solitary and idiosyncratic.  That is, the man writing in his notebooks with his weird quirks, HE is an Artist.  These other people, blogging away or chattering on social networks, they are noise, interference, blockages.  That's what annoys me here, because I don't see any reason why the Solitary, Tortured Artist has to be either solitary or tortured, and I think the stereotype does more harm than good in terms of how, when, and why people produce art.  Collaboration and pop culture are both sources of really good art in various forms, earnest or ironic, harsh or loving, bitter or saccharine, just as much if not more so than the Solitary Artist in his secluded loft.

---

@Milhous

He sends his "real" work to his editor, who pronounces it "incomprehensible."  Not bad, mind; the editor just can't understand it.  (Presumably because it's above his level, doncherknow.)  The presence of the Internet and the myriad gadgets and the taste-matching algorithms (as embodied in the coffee shop machine) are all presented negatively, as things impeding him from pursuing his Great Work properly.  The overall tone I took away from that ending was that this man would have been a Literary Genius if only he had had the strength to pursue his Solitary Ambition and not indulge in mere crass commercialism and creating popular items enjoyed by the masses.  As I stated above, I disagree on the strongest possible terms that the best art comes from a uniquely gifted individual whose inherent qualities make him more special than other people, that art must come from an Artist with inborn gifts.  Lots of people can create really great art by a lot of different routes.

I would agree that the story isn't entirely kind to the protagonist.  My complaint, however, is more that the story seems to take as a given the idea of the Great Man, the hero who is born rather than made, and I find that philosophical concept flawed, at best, and downright repugnant in some of its darker forms.  Innate talent and proclivity may indeed come in a variety of levels and strengths, but the idea that this man was born to be a Great Writer and prevented from doing so because he was seduced by commercial success is distasteful to me.  I take a more democratic view of art and its production; I don't believe in genius, or at least I believe in not believing in genius.  (I'd be plenty awed despite myself if I got to meet Terry Pratchett, for instance.)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 09:05:42 AM by Scattercat »



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Reply #18 on: March 06, 2011, 03:00:55 PM
Until I read this thread I didn't think it was some sort of allegory for the agonizing Artistic Process or some kind of whinny complaint about derivative works, or even a hubris piece about the superiority of the protagonist.
All I thought it was was a speculative piece about the near future, say 2-5 years down the line. Already to you see trends of people ignoring each other in public, wrapped up in their own little media sphere, cut off from those around them. I do it myself. Sunglasses and headphones to avoid talking to people I really don't want to. When I go to a coffee shop or a restaurant by myself I usually bring my own entertainment with me, laptop, tablet or book.
There's nothing new here, just a setting.
The main issue I thought was what Mur mentioned at the end about "You might also like..." which was pointed out by the protagonist at the Barist-O-Matic. It's not that we are losing our ability to create new (or derivative) art, it's that we are being constantly told what to think. We won't go see a movie unless three different rating sites have given it a good rating. We (ok, not me, mostly the female "we") watch Opera to find out what books to read and what to wear. We base our purchases on what other people liked, and we feel extremely proud when a comment on our wall has over a thousand "likes" (not to mention the "I have more friends than you" competition).
The author simply took it one step further and said, oh hey, here's a guy (or gal) who wrote a computer program to spew out literature that is designed from the bottom up to be liked by everybody. So everybody reads it.
That's it.
I found it interesting, amusing and little bit personal in places. Definitely a story with a moral, but the moral isn't "create your own work" but "Think your own thoughts".

Cogito ergo surf - I think therefore I network

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Reply #19 on: March 07, 2011, 02:24:22 AM
I loved this story.  I love a good dystopian tale and this really did it for me.

It caught my attention from the opening lines (possibly because it was in fact describing the physically ideal woman of my possibly overly influenced by Heinlien adolescence).  I know 2nd person doesn’t work for everyone, and most times I don’t like it either, but this time I really did feel put in the protagonist’s shoes.

And I loved the how it slowly built to the dystopian feel. 

But I didn’t hear this as a story about art, or even Art – I’m not an artist and that part of the story didn’t jump out at me on first listen (I see it now, and will give it a relisten with that in mind).  Rather I heard this as a story about human isolation.  That even as we live in an increasingly “connected” world we risk becoming increasingly disconnected from each other. 

That theme of isolation seemed to be sounded throughout the story – from not talking with the ideal woman, to the people plugged in in public, the drivers not even bothering to pay attention as they drove, to editors not bothering to read his blog posts, to the protagonist not reading the comments.  Yet everyone was pretending that they were in some way not isolated.  The thought of being surrounded but all alone, gives me shivers.

I can’t comment on the story as it relates to art, but as it relates to community I found it powerful and moving. 
When it ended I had a line from Dylan’s apocalyptic masterpiece, “A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall” running through my head:  “Heard ten thousand whisperin’ and nobody listenin’”. 



Scattercat

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Reply #20 on: March 07, 2011, 03:23:42 AM
I don't think the story is necessarily about Art; I just think that the assumptions it makes in the way it presents its material leads to certain conclusions about which I am profoundly uncomfortable.

Things don't have to have specially encoded meanings to still have meanings.



milhous

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Reply #21 on: March 07, 2011, 07:12:18 AM
@Scattercat
 
I entirely understand, and sympathize, and agree with your central tenet, and yet... when you say " The presence of the Internet and the myriad gadgets and the taste-matching algorithms (as embodied in the coffee shop machine) are all presented negatively, as things impeding him from pursuing his Great Work properly."

I don't see this at all. There's a coffee-maker that has a ton of choices, and the protag's working their way through them... why? To prevent taste recommendations? To appear clever? It's clear they're dissatisfied with what they're getting ("Perfect and artless") and yet they're going to spend the rest of their lives going through all the rest. Why? And this is actually called out pretty explicitly, that they could pursue better options, but don't.

In the same way, you're not happy because you think the ending implied they'd be great "if only he had had the strength to pursue his Solitary Ambition and not indulge in mere crass commercialism and creating popular items enjoyed by the masses."

And for me, I found it clear through the doubling and tripling (woman of dreams, coffee) that that's not the limitation at all -- it's really a two-pronged refutation done elegantly:

First, the society's entirely recognizable and a pretty crappy place to live. This protag lives in a world where the AOL content model wins, to the point they're barely mining inspiration to feed into a sausage maker of their own making.

Second, the opportunities to break out of this are all around us, from the seemingly mundane (how do you want your coffee?) to the romantic (she's sitting down, do you take the chance or wait for her to put on headphones and then lament not doing anything?) and the literary (what do you do with those notebooks? how do you confront failure?) -- and, on a meta-level, as readers. Do we want to read a James Patterson-branded book where he's actually just written something on a napkin and fed it into a machine, or do we (to go for the cheap pop) want to hang out on Escape Pod and weird, cool places on the internet and read Electric Velocipede?

More generally, I guess I didn't at all find the Ayn Randian overtones you're seeming to have problems with. I don't see any evidence that the rejected work was objectively brilliant, though of course I'm happy to have a story tell me I'm brilliant. But moreover, as an oft-rejected writer, I thought that was a particularly interesting twist of the knife. I have two stories I think are amazingly good I can't find markets for, and I've got a long and really boring argument about how the collapse of the science-fiction short story market's doing me no favors. And the story asked that question of me, too -- as authors, how do we confront that? Can we fight this out, or do we just toss notebooks on a pile in the corner and go write some articles for eHow and hope for ramen money? Are those stories stymied genius, and if so, how do you cope with that? What if you're wrong?



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Reply #22 on: March 07, 2011, 02:37:26 PM
Resplendent cat and robot combo technique!

First, the society's entirely recognizable and a pretty crappy place to live. This protag lives in a world where the AOL content model wins, to the point they're barely mining inspiration to feed into a sausage maker of their own making.

This is where I depart from you - and the story - significantly. I didn't find the future a terrible place to live. It was a place, full of neat and useful technologies. I saw nothing that would actually prevent him from talking to the girl, enjoying his coffee, becoming an artist, etc. He was whining, the future was pretty ok, therefore it's a pretty logical conclusion that he was a self-absorbed jerkface.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 03:03:25 PM by ElectricPaladin »

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Reply #23 on: March 07, 2011, 02:59:54 PM
I read this first in Bull Spec and I wrote up comments about it at the time:

Quote
"You're Almost Here" was probably my favorite of the non-Steffen stories. Which is quite a feat, considering how much I find 2nd person distracting.  Thought the idea was very cool, the setting gradually and masterfully revealed, character details illuminated clearly through actions and narration.  The only way I can think of that would have improved it would've been putting it in 1st or 3rd person. I've never gotten 2nd person--why does someone need to tell me what I have supposedly already done

So odd that I strongly disliked it this time through.  I think it's because the story is a bit of a one-trick pony.  There's not much plot, only the protagonist admitting her past failures to produce original work that would gain the interest of a publisher--but even that was in the past and lacking tension.  There's some character, but it's constantly distracted from by the 2nd person muddling it.  I think what appealed to me the first time was the reveal of the setting and the state of the publishing industry at this time and place.  But the second time through I already knew the setting, and knew what it was revealing, and there was precious little else to keep my attention.  Instead I couldn't stop dwelling on the annoying 2nd person narration.  I didn't remember what I'd thought of it the first time through until I went back into my chat history where I'd written that up, and was a bit surprised at my previous reaction.

An odd lesson to me in how my reactions might vary upon re-reading.



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Reply #24 on: March 07, 2011, 03:06:13 PM
See, that's just it.

1) That future isn't a crappy place to live.  ElecPal nailed my reaction: "What a whiner.  We already have this stuff and it's either awesome or easily ignored."

2) James Patterson makes art, too.  You don't have to like his art, but dismissing everything commercial is elitist.  My central point is that I disagree with the idea that James Patterson's novel farm (and I would agree that what I've read of his hasn't really made me squee) is bad inherently because he writes commercially successful stuff.  Derivative pop culture things can still be awesome and are still artistically worthwhile.  Making stuff that is popular doesn't invalidate your artistic merit, and you don't have to "fight" anything.  

The story might be a call to battle against mediocrity, but I don't see where we need to define mediocrity that way or struggle against it if we do.  Other people like that kind of thing; that's cool.  I might enjoy writing it.  If I like writing it and they like reading it, where's the problem?  Here, in this story, the problem is the protagonist is an arrogant douchebag who "knows" that he's better than all this but keeps doing it anyway.



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Reply #25 on: March 07, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
Bleak, whiny, depressing.

No fun.

Are you guys aware that the Escape Pod submission guidelines still ask for fun stories?

No more like this please.



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Reply #26 on: March 07, 2011, 03:40:31 PM
Some people (including myself) seemed to enjoy it. Unfortunately its impossible to please 100% of the audience 100% of the time.



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Reply #27 on: March 07, 2011, 05:27:56 PM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).

Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"

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Reply #28 on: March 07, 2011, 08:22:32 PM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).

Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"

Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"
(Full disclosure: a friend of mine suggested this.)

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Reply #29 on: March 07, 2011, 10:13:50 PM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).
Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"
(Full disclosure: a friend of mine suggested this.)
Neil Gaiman: "So this ordinary person stumbles upon a secret, magical land where he/she is special..." (not all his stuff - just Stardust, Neverwhere, Coraline, Mirrormask. Did I miss any others?)



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Reply #30 on: March 08, 2011, 01:56:16 AM
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"

I wouldn't count this; endless sequel-itis is not the same as writing new stories that follow the same formula as earlier ones... it's more like Stephen King trying to tie The Dark Tower to everything else he's ever written (to less-than-desirable effect... The Talisman deserved a decent sequel; Black House wasn't it... even though Henry was totally, totally bitchrod.)

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Reply #31 on: March 08, 2011, 02:15:19 AM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).
Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"
(Full disclosure: a friend of mine suggested this.)
Neil Gaiman: "So this ordinary person stumbles upon a secret, magical land where he/she is special..." (not all his stuff - just Stardust, Neverwhere, Coraline, Mirrormask. Did I miss any others?)

Arguably: American Gods and Anansi Boys (not magical world, just the hidden magical part of the real world)



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Reply #32 on: March 08, 2011, 02:20:09 AM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).
Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"
(Full disclosure: a friend of mine suggested this.)
Neil Gaiman: "So this ordinary person stumbles upon a secret, magical land where he/she is special..." (not all his stuff - just Stardust, Neverwhere, Coraline, Mirrormask. Did I miss any others?)

Arguably: American Gods and Anansi Boys (not magical world, just the hidden magical part of the real world)

A lot of people forget The Graveyard Book, which is, arguably "this magical person stumbles upon a secret, ordinary land where he/she is no one special."

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Reply #33 on: March 08, 2011, 03:00:47 AM
Bleak, whiny, depressing.

No fun.


I think you are only half-right here.  It was bleak and depressing  -- but then some of the best dystopias are.  But I thought it was a ton of fun (and not whiny at all).

I wouldn’t want to hear something like this every weak, but if Escape Pod started running a good bleak depressing dystopian story once or twice a month I, for one, would be thrilled.



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Reply #34 on: March 08, 2011, 01:43:20 PM
I appreciate what the writer is trying to do here. Writing a story about some hipster, misunderstood writer using a style a hipster, misunderstood writer would use: the taboo second-person; riffing on social issues but not doing any actual world-building; making a writer the main character; and not presenting any character arc, conflict or other element that makes it an actual story.

If this had been in a collection of Ms. Thielbar's work or the anchor story in an anthology with similar themes, I would have appreciated its meta quality. As a stand-alone, it felt like a waste of time because it is indeed a hipster unstory with a writer trying to show how cool she is. If it hadn't been as short as it was, I would have stopped listening after five minutes because nothing was happening.



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Reply #35 on: March 08, 2011, 02:32:00 PM
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"

I wouldn't count this; endless sequel-itis is not the same as writing new stories that follow the same formula as earlier ones... it's more like Stephen King trying to tie The Dark Tower to everything else he's ever written (to less-than-desirable effect... The Talisman deserved a decent sequel; Black House wasn't it... even though Henry was totally, totally bitchrod.)

I totally agree with all of this.  The book was worth reading for Henry, but not for much else.  And The Talisman is quite possibly my favorite book of all time.   I think there's a 3rd book in the works, hopefully it's more of the quality of the first than the second--but I doubt it because any editor who points out flaws to Stephen King these days is likely to end up at the bottom of a quarry.



tinygaia

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Reply #36 on: March 08, 2011, 02:57:46 PM
A lot of people forget The Graveyard Book, which is, arguably "this magical person stumbles upon a secret, ordinary land where he/she is no one special."
/applaud
Nice, sir!



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Reply #37 on: March 08, 2011, 03:06:52 PM
I've been trying to figure out why I feel so negatively toward this story. I appreciated Scattercat's perspective, but that doesn't explain why I would react poorly to it. But now I think that evo.shandor has hit it on the head. In a word, I would call this story self-indulgent. Which is sad, because I think I would actually like to read that anthology in which this is just one building block in an overarching theme. Variations on the Creative Process and Evolving Technology. Or some such. :)



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Reply #38 on: March 08, 2011, 03:59:40 PM
I didn't have as negative a reaction to this one as others in this thread, but I didn't really get much positive out of it, either. I think I switched off early on when the "Harry Potter and the Voyage of the Dawn Treader" ad was mentioned, because that was such an easy shot that it struck me as the kind of joke a really dull person would make. No matter if that was meant as a genuine jibe or whether this was supposed to increase the ironic distance between me and the narration, in both cases my motivation to try to get emotionally engaged dropped to 0.

Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.



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Reply #39 on: March 08, 2011, 06:10:01 PM
Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.

But why would one WANT to establish distance?



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Reply #40 on: March 08, 2011, 10:45:45 PM
A rousing "Meh"... I got the idea early on but it just kept going. It seemed to be relying too much of the conceit of (use Adam Sandler voice): "I'm writing this is the second person! Isn't that crazy!?"

No plot to speak of. Not enough of a twist from playing about two inches of rope from current technology. Nothing really here to take hold of... sorry...

-Adam



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Reply #41 on: March 09, 2011, 12:09:13 AM
Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.

But why would one WANT to establish distance?


Because it's not always desirable for the reader to identify too closely with the protagonist?



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Reply #42 on: March 09, 2011, 02:56:13 PM
Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.

But why would one WANT to establish distance?


Because it's not always desirable for the reader to identify too closely with the protagonist?

Why?  If I identify with the protagonist, I care more.  If I care more, I have more stake in how it turns out.  If I care more, the plot is more memorable. Even if a protagonist is a grade A tool, if you can make me empathize with him on some level the story will work better for me.

The advantages of making the reader identify with the protagonist are clear to me, but I don't understand why one would want to do the opposite.



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Reply #43 on: March 09, 2011, 04:06:54 PM
Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.

But why would one WANT to establish distance?


Because it's not always desirable for the reader to identify too closely with the protagonist?

Why?  If I identify with the protagonist, I care more.  If I care more, I have more stake in how it turns out.  If I care more, the plot is more memorable. Even if a protagonist is a grade A tool, if you can make me empathize with him on some level the story will work better for me.

The advantages of making the reader identify with the protagonist are clear to me, but I don't understand why one would want to do the opposite.


The opposite can be an effective tool for making characters more interesting and making a setting more vivid as well. I'm thinking specifically of American Psycho and Feed at the moment, but there are other examples. And in the case of this story, I get the vibe that kind of drive is exactly what the author was going for.



acpracht

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Reply #44 on: March 09, 2011, 05:10:18 PM
In this case, I think the 2nd person only served as a convenient cover to disguise a complete lack of plot.

If you want to see effective use of 2nd person, read Italo Calvino's "If On a Winter's Night a Traveler..."



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Reply #45 on: March 09, 2011, 05:14:53 PM
If you want to see effective use of 2nd person, read Italo Calvino's "If On a Winter's Night a Traveler..."

I think everyone should read "If On a Winter's Night a Traveler..." as it is a truly great piece of literature that deserves to be universally read. But I don't think it's particularly fair to other stories to compare them to Calvino's work when it comes to the use of literary devices.



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Reply #46 on: March 09, 2011, 09:22:47 PM
Mmmm... probably not, so good point. But I still don't think the 2nd person was used well in this story, by any standard.

I guess I was putting forth Calvino as an example of effective use of the conceit, rather than a straight one-to-one comparison. It would be a book versus a short story, for starters, which right there isn't a fair comparison.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify myself.

-Adam



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Reply #47 on: March 10, 2011, 09:01:53 PM
One good thing from this story, I decided to pull out my copy of Calvino last night...



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Reply #48 on: March 11, 2011, 02:21:51 AM
Geez, lotta negative vibes goin' down here, man. I kinda liked this one. For me it raised more questions about writing and its process than about the protag. I felt the protag was just a convenient soap-box. It was a short, light piece -- quite enjoyable.


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Reply #49 on: March 11, 2011, 05:33:54 AM
I thought it was interesting. As someone who has an interesting relationship with the 'hipster, holier-than-thou, commercial-art-isn't-real-art' attitude - I can appreciate where it comes from (I too really dislike popular culture), but dislike how it iterates itself - I enjoyed this story. I think the trick is not to take it at face value. The point being made (the point so eloquently and brutally put down by Scattercat) is interesting, but that's not to say we have to agree with it. Indeed I think part of the point of this story was to make an ironic point about how insufferable the protagonists attitude is. It's an odd literary style, and might be just a little too pretension without a counterpoint, but i think it works pretty well here.

I also loved the world building. It was subtle, it came in dribs and drabs, it was interesting. It sounds like a pretty cool future, when you take off the cynical, self-obsessed glasses through which we are forced to look at the world in the story.

It felt like it should belong in a shared world anthology, where the rest of the stories are told in a normal fashion, exploring differed aspects of the world in a generally favourable light - this would be something of a counterpoint. On it's own, it suffers from being a little too presumptuous, but it was still enjoyable.


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Reply #50 on: March 12, 2011, 10:00:44 AM
Coming into this thread a little late...

I liked this story, though like others I found the world presented a little bleak.  It read to me like a sketch of a world on the edges of a singularity.  I didn't get that the protagonist felt that he was above the rest of the world because he was artistic and insightful and was depressed because no one else could see it.  I got that he was depressed because he realised that he wasn't good enough to compete with his own creations.  He creates a program which can take the various life jottings he records and from them create great works of literature, but when he tries to write the books himself they are rejected.  Why?  Not because his editor is an insensitive philistine, but because the protagonist is less good at writing than his own writing programs.

The point is reinforced with the making of coffee.  The protagonist toys with the notion of buying a coffee maker, but in the end rejects it, because he knows that the end result would taste worse than what the Baristomatic makes every time.  Just like his writing.


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Reply #51 on: March 14, 2011, 01:44:29 PM
A bit of a sidestory, but it is relevant.

From time to time, when I am trying to split myself in too many directions on any given day, I sometimes have trouble sleeping as my mind races away on the things it's trying to compute.  As I get more exhausted and more split, and as I start to drift to sleep, these lines of reasoning make less and less sense.  For instance, a couple months back I spent half the night sleepless trying to figure out a problem, and later realized the problem was nonsensical, something like "How do I say a comeback to an insult that doesn't result in a compiler error?"  (A result of too much programming at work and for school I guess)

The reason this is relevant is that over the weekend I had one of these sleepless nights, and the question of the night was about trying to write a program that would write stories.  The particular aspect I was trying to sort out was how to write the code to robustly deal with point of view switches that also include a change from 1st person to 3rd person. 

Oy, I can't wait til I'm done with school.  My poor addled brain can't take much more of this.




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Reply #52 on: March 14, 2011, 03:44:03 PM
I didn't get the bleak or dystopian views on this story.  Most of this is happening now, where safe sells, and the best way to get acclaim is to do whatever is popular at the time.  That said, I didn't find the story that interesting because, other than the elevator pay to ride and the computer program(I wonder if he called it Locke or Demosthenes) the story is pretty much current-day tech, and current day events.  I have plenty of friends who travel through the world in their own devices, spending their days exactly like the MC. 

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Reply #53 on: March 15, 2011, 01:41:25 AM
From time to time, when I am trying to split myself in too many directions on any given day, I sometimes have trouble sleeping as my mind races away on the things it's trying to compute.

You're not alone there :-)

See Babylon 5, "The Hour of the Wolf".


JoeFitz

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Reply #54 on: March 15, 2011, 03:54:13 AM
I didn't love this story. But, wow, I love the people who take the time to write such interesting comments in the forum! Thanks!



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Reply #55 on: March 18, 2011, 01:55:18 AM
A lot of people forget The Graveyard Book, which is, arguably "this magical person stumbles upon a secret, ordinary land where he/she is no one special."

The Graveyard Book is stolen plot/theme tho, because it's the Jungle Book. 

So I'm not so sure that counts as Neil Gaiman writing a different plot.  Not that I don't love Neil Gaiman as much as the next geek, but still...

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Reply #56 on: March 18, 2011, 11:31:43 AM
Another yawn-tastic story. Lets check the list of sci-fi must haves...

Space ships - nope
Aliens - nope
Awesome tech - nope
Galaxy spanning evil villains - nope

... as you can see, on the  "Felbrigg's Scale of Sci-Fi-ness" it's a little lacking.


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Reply #57 on: March 18, 2011, 11:51:28 AM
i do hope your tongue is planted firmly in your cheek, sir


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Reply #58 on: March 18, 2011, 01:16:48 PM
Me too, I mean the barista-bot alone gives it a “yup” for awesome tech. 



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Reply #59 on: March 18, 2011, 01:45:40 PM
That makes me weep, since -- what was the...oh yes, 'Felbrigg' is obviously a name as ubiquitous in sci-fi circles as 'Hilton' is in the halls of MENSA.

Take a breath and walk it off.



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Reply #60 on: March 18, 2011, 05:05:00 PM
That makes me weep, since -- what was the...oh yes, 'Felbrigg' is obviously a name as ubiquitous in sci-fi circles as 'Hilton' is in the halls of MENSA.

Take a breath and walk it off.

Hmmm lets see... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felbrigg ... no mention of Sci Fi!


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Reply #61 on: March 18, 2011, 07:52:14 PM
That makes me weep, since -- what was the...oh yes, 'Felbrigg' is obviously a name as ubiquitous in sci-fi circles as 'Hilton' is in the halls of MENSA.

Take a breath and walk it off.

Hmmm lets see... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felbrigg ... no mention of Sci Fi!

Um, yes.  That was... kind of the point of his remark.  I think he was assuming that "Felbrigg" was your real last name, and was pointing out that that name carries no weight of actual authority.



eytanz

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Reply #62 on: March 18, 2011, 08:51:25 PM
I think he was assuming that "Felbrigg" was your real last name

A mistaken assumption to be sure, given that it's his first name.



Scattercat

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Reply #63 on: March 24, 2011, 09:50:32 PM



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #64 on: March 25, 2011, 04:09:35 PM
This is why I love Cat and Girl.

It might be worth finding the permalink for that particular comic and changing your link to point to it.  In the future, that link will point to a new comic and people won't know what you are referring to.

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


stePH

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Reply #65 on: March 25, 2011, 06:31:23 PM
This is why I love Cat and Girl.

It might be worth finding the permalink for that particular comic and changing your link to point to it.  In the future, that link will point to a new comic and people won't know what you are referring to.

Here's the link you want.

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


CryptoMe

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Reply #66 on: March 27, 2011, 08:28:29 PM
For me, this was one of those stories where the forum posts were way more fun than the story. BTW, I have no idea what story you all were listening to, cause I got none of that. But, I did enjoy listening to your discussion. Thanks.

Also, I agree with Gamercow, the best part of the story I heard was the "pay for elevator rides" idea. Hmmm, maybe that would be a good start to solving our society's growing obesity problems.....



Devoted135

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Reply #67 on: March 28, 2011, 01:28:14 PM
This is my favorite way to combat obesity :) (or it would be if I lived anywhere near Stockholm :P)

http://www.brandfreak.com/2009/10/volkswagen-comes-up-with-piano-stairs-and-other-fun-diversions.html



hardware

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Reply #68 on: March 31, 2011, 10:21:01 AM
This felt a bit like an entry in some competition to write about how life in the future might look like. Not much plot, not much character, but quite some nice observations about which directions our culture is taking, and at least an attempt to see how that would change people including the protagonist. And no, I don't we should necessarily identify or agree with him.



eytanz

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Reply #69 on: May 24, 2011, 03:37:03 AM
I think you must be confusing this one with another story, because it had nothing to do with time travel.

Edit: this is in response to a post that was removed, not to Hardware's post.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 10:54:21 AM by eytanz »



Planish

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Reply #70 on: May 24, 2011, 04:47:20 AM
I think you must be confusing this one with another story, because it had nothing to do with time travel.
You are perfectly correct.
My previous post has been removed to protect the clueless.::)

I must confess though, that I was tempted to simply delete it and not make this post. It would make eytanz' post somewhat surreal, because it almost seems relevant to hardware's post.

I skimmed the story again and upgraded my rating of it to somewhere between "meh" and "okay".

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("planish" rhymes with "vanish")


olivaw

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Reply #71 on: July 03, 2011, 02:32:05 PM
Hi
This was the first Escape Pod I listened to, and it persuaded me to come back for more.
Alienation is a popular modernist theme, so it's nice to remember that SF can always up the ante.



kibitzer

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Reply #72 on: July 04, 2011, 02:44:01 AM
Hi
This was the first Escape Pod I listened to, and it persuaded me to come back for more.
Alienation is a popular modernist theme, so it's nice to remember that SF can always up the ante.

Welcome, Daneel! Hope you stick around.