Author Topic: EP282: You’re Almost Here  (Read 30900 times)

Nobilis

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Reply #25 on: March 07, 2011, 03:24:05 PM
Bleak, whiny, depressing.

No fun.

Are you guys aware that the Escape Pod submission guidelines still ask for fun stories?

No more like this please.



Talia

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Reply #26 on: March 07, 2011, 03:40:31 PM
Some people (including myself) seemed to enjoy it. Unfortunately its impossible to please 100% of the audience 100% of the time.



stePH

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Reply #27 on: March 07, 2011, 05:27:56 PM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).

Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"

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Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #28 on: March 07, 2011, 08:22:32 PM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).

Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"

Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"
(Full disclosure: a friend of mine suggested this.)

"People commonly use the word 'procrastination' to describe what they do on the Internet. It seems to me too mild to describe what's happening as merely not-doing-work. We don't call it procrastination when someone gets drunk instead of working." - Paul Graham


tinygaia

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Reply #29 on: March 07, 2011, 10:13:50 PM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).
Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"
(Full disclosure: a friend of mine suggested this.)
Neil Gaiman: "So this ordinary person stumbles upon a secret, magical land where he/she is special..." (not all his stuff - just Stardust, Neverwhere, Coraline, Mirrormask. Did I miss any others?)



stePH

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Reply #30 on: March 08, 2011, 01:56:16 AM
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"

I wouldn't count this; endless sequel-itis is not the same as writing new stories that follow the same formula as earlier ones... it's more like Stephen King trying to tie The Dark Tower to everything else he's ever written (to less-than-desirable effect... The Talisman deserved a decent sequel; Black House wasn't it... even though Henry was totally, totally bitchrod.)

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blueeyeddevil

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Reply #31 on: March 08, 2011, 02:15:19 AM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).
Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"
(Full disclosure: a friend of mine suggested this.)
Neil Gaiman: "So this ordinary person stumbles upon a secret, magical land where he/she is special..." (not all his stuff - just Stardust, Neverwhere, Coraline, Mirrormask. Did I miss any others?)

Arguably: American Gods and Anansi Boys (not magical world, just the hidden magical part of the real world)



ElectricPaladin

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Reply #32 on: March 08, 2011, 02:20:09 AM
I'm sure Stephen King has said to himself: 'I have an idea for a story...some sort of evil presence moves into a small New England town and begins possessing and killing the inhabitants...hmmm, have I done this before?'  Or Dick Francis: 'I know, I'll do a story about horse racing!' Or any number of others (provide any appropriate jokes in this vein as you wish).
Donald Westlake: "How about a story about a bunch of thieves trying to salvage a heist gone wrong?"
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"
(Full disclosure: a friend of mine suggested this.)
Neil Gaiman: "So this ordinary person stumbles upon a secret, magical land where he/she is special..." (not all his stuff - just Stardust, Neverwhere, Coraline, Mirrormask. Did I miss any others?)

Arguably: American Gods and Anansi Boys (not magical world, just the hidden magical part of the real world)

A lot of people forget The Graveyard Book, which is, arguably "this magical person stumbles upon a secret, ordinary land where he/she is no one special."

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Reginod

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Reply #33 on: March 08, 2011, 03:00:47 AM
Bleak, whiny, depressing.

No fun.


I think you are only half-right here.  It was bleak and depressing  -- but then some of the best dystopias are.  But I thought it was a ton of fun (and not whiny at all).

I wouldn’t want to hear something like this every weak, but if Escape Pod started running a good bleak depressing dystopian story once or twice a month I, for one, would be thrilled.



evo.shandor

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Reply #34 on: March 08, 2011, 01:43:20 PM
I appreciate what the writer is trying to do here. Writing a story about some hipster, misunderstood writer using a style a hipster, misunderstood writer would use: the taboo second-person; riffing on social issues but not doing any actual world-building; making a writer the main character; and not presenting any character arc, conflict or other element that makes it an actual story.

If this had been in a collection of Ms. Thielbar's work or the anchor story in an anthology with similar themes, I would have appreciated its meta quality. As a stand-alone, it felt like a waste of time because it is indeed a hipster unstory with a writer trying to show how cool she is. If it hadn't been as short as it was, I would have stopped listening after five minutes because nothing was happening.



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Reply #35 on: March 08, 2011, 02:32:00 PM
Orson Scott Card: "Hey, I thought of another thing I could squeeze in to the Ender's Game universe!"

I wouldn't count this; endless sequel-itis is not the same as writing new stories that follow the same formula as earlier ones... it's more like Stephen King trying to tie The Dark Tower to everything else he's ever written (to less-than-desirable effect... The Talisman deserved a decent sequel; Black House wasn't it... even though Henry was totally, totally bitchrod.)

I totally agree with all of this.  The book was worth reading for Henry, but not for much else.  And The Talisman is quite possibly my favorite book of all time.   I think there's a 3rd book in the works, hopefully it's more of the quality of the first than the second--but I doubt it because any editor who points out flaws to Stephen King these days is likely to end up at the bottom of a quarry.



tinygaia

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Reply #36 on: March 08, 2011, 02:57:46 PM
A lot of people forget The Graveyard Book, which is, arguably "this magical person stumbles upon a secret, ordinary land where he/she is no one special."
/applaud
Nice, sir!



Devoted135

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Reply #37 on: March 08, 2011, 03:06:52 PM
I've been trying to figure out why I feel so negatively toward this story. I appreciated Scattercat's perspective, but that doesn't explain why I would react poorly to it. But now I think that evo.shandor has hit it on the head. In a word, I would call this story self-indulgent. Which is sad, because I think I would actually like to read that anthology in which this is just one building block in an overarching theme. Variations on the Creative Process and Evolving Technology. Or some such. :)



eytanz

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Reply #38 on: March 08, 2011, 03:59:40 PM
I didn't have as negative a reaction to this one as others in this thread, but I didn't really get much positive out of it, either. I think I switched off early on when the "Harry Potter and the Voyage of the Dawn Treader" ad was mentioned, because that was such an easy shot that it struck me as the kind of joke a really dull person would make. No matter if that was meant as a genuine jibe or whether this was supposed to increase the ironic distance between me and the narration, in both cases my motivation to try to get emotionally engaged dropped to 0.

Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.



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Reply #39 on: March 08, 2011, 06:10:01 PM
Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.

But why would one WANT to establish distance?



acpracht

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Reply #40 on: March 08, 2011, 10:45:45 PM
A rousing "Meh"... I got the idea early on but it just kept going. It seemed to be relying too much of the conceit of (use Adam Sandler voice): "I'm writing this is the second person! Isn't that crazy!?"

No plot to speak of. Not enough of a twist from playing about two inches of rope from current technology. Nothing really here to take hold of... sorry...

-Adam



eytanz

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Reply #41 on: March 09, 2011, 12:09:13 AM
Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.

But why would one WANT to establish distance?


Because it's not always desirable for the reader to identify too closely with the protagonist?



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Reply #42 on: March 09, 2011, 02:56:13 PM
Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.

But why would one WANT to establish distance?


Because it's not always desirable for the reader to identify too closely with the protagonist?

Why?  If I identify with the protagonist, I care more.  If I care more, I have more stake in how it turns out.  If I care more, the plot is more memorable. Even if a protagonist is a grade A tool, if you can make me empathize with him on some level the story will work better for me.

The advantages of making the reader identify with the protagonist are clear to me, but I don't understand why one would want to do the opposite.



matweller

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Reply #43 on: March 09, 2011, 04:06:54 PM
Interestingly, as one of the forum's major anti-2nd person complainers, the fact that it was 2nd person never bothered me, because this story used it correctly - to establish distance.

But why would one WANT to establish distance?


Because it's not always desirable for the reader to identify too closely with the protagonist?

Why?  If I identify with the protagonist, I care more.  If I care more, I have more stake in how it turns out.  If I care more, the plot is more memorable. Even if a protagonist is a grade A tool, if you can make me empathize with him on some level the story will work better for me.

The advantages of making the reader identify with the protagonist are clear to me, but I don't understand why one would want to do the opposite.


The opposite can be an effective tool for making characters more interesting and making a setting more vivid as well. I'm thinking specifically of American Psycho and Feed at the moment, but there are other examples. And in the case of this story, I get the vibe that kind of drive is exactly what the author was going for.



acpracht

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Reply #44 on: March 09, 2011, 05:10:18 PM
In this case, I think the 2nd person only served as a convenient cover to disguise a complete lack of plot.

If you want to see effective use of 2nd person, read Italo Calvino's "If On a Winter's Night a Traveler..."



eytanz

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Reply #45 on: March 09, 2011, 05:14:53 PM
If you want to see effective use of 2nd person, read Italo Calvino's "If On a Winter's Night a Traveler..."

I think everyone should read "If On a Winter's Night a Traveler..." as it is a truly great piece of literature that deserves to be universally read. But I don't think it's particularly fair to other stories to compare them to Calvino's work when it comes to the use of literary devices.



acpracht

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Reply #46 on: March 09, 2011, 09:22:47 PM
Mmmm... probably not, so good point. But I still don't think the 2nd person was used well in this story, by any standard.

I guess I was putting forth Calvino as an example of effective use of the conceit, rather than a straight one-to-one comparison. It would be a book versus a short story, for starters, which right there isn't a fair comparison.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify myself.

-Adam



acpracht

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Reply #47 on: March 10, 2011, 09:01:53 PM
One good thing from this story, I decided to pull out my copy of Calvino last night...



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Reply #48 on: March 11, 2011, 02:21:51 AM
Geez, lotta negative vibes goin' down here, man. I kinda liked this one. For me it raised more questions about writing and its process than about the protag. I felt the protag was just a convenient soap-box. It was a short, light piece -- quite enjoyable.


iamafish

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Reply #49 on: March 11, 2011, 05:33:54 AM
I thought it was interesting. As someone who has an interesting relationship with the 'hipster, holier-than-thou, commercial-art-isn't-real-art' attitude - I can appreciate where it comes from (I too really dislike popular culture), but dislike how it iterates itself - I enjoyed this story. I think the trick is not to take it at face value. The point being made (the point so eloquently and brutally put down by Scattercat) is interesting, but that's not to say we have to agree with it. Indeed I think part of the point of this story was to make an ironic point about how insufferable the protagonists attitude is. It's an odd literary style, and might be just a little too pretension without a counterpoint, but i think it works pretty well here.

I also loved the world building. It was subtle, it came in dribs and drabs, it was interesting. It sounds like a pretty cool future, when you take off the cynical, self-obsessed glasses through which we are forced to look at the world in the story.

It felt like it should belong in a shared world anthology, where the rest of the stories are told in a normal fashion, exploring differed aspects of the world in a generally favourable light - this would be something of a counterpoint. On it's own, it suffers from being a little too presumptuous, but it was still enjoyable.