Author Topic: Grandma, why are your eyes so almondy? (split off EP280: Endosymbiont)  (Read 13774 times)

Wilson Fowlie

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Edit: One last nitpick. Can we stop comparing Asian peoples' eyes to almonds? Why isn't there an opposite to this? "Doctor O'Malley narrowed his hazelnut eyes."

Maybe there is an opposite (or at least an analogue), in Asian literature.  If there is, I'd like to know what it is.  Blueberries? :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 11:39:14 PM by eytanz »

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Anarkey

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Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 06:13:37 PM
Edit: One last nitpick. Can we stop comparing Asian peoples' eyes to almonds? Why isn't there an opposite to this? "Doctor O'Malley narrowed his hazelnut eyes."

I found that pretty cringeworthy myself (though I liked the story overall for the thinky bits, even with its flaws).  Love this post about the almond eyes sloppy writing shortcut:
http://clairelight.typepad.com/seelight/2006/09/almond_eyes.html


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Faraway Ray

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Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 10:30:11 PM
Edit: One last nitpick. Can we stop comparing Asian peoples' eyes to almonds? Why isn't there an opposite to this? "Doctor O'Malley narrowed his hazelnut eyes."

I found that pretty cringeworthy myself (though I liked the story overall for the thinky bits, even with its flaws).  Love this post about the almond eyes sloppy writing shortcut:
http://clairelight.typepad.com/seelight/2006/09/almond_eyes.html



Wow. That is a lot of work to do to make that point.  :D

Interesting to see that post came out of 2006. Makes you wonder just how far back this little tidbit of prose goes.


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Dem

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Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 10:34:43 PM

Quote

Wow. That is a lot of work to do to make that point.  :D

Interesting to see that post came out of 2006. Makes you wonder just how far back this little tidbit of prose goes.

Yonks. And that's a very long time.

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Gamercow

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Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 08:55:34 PM
Edit: One last nitpick. Can we stop comparing Asian peoples' eyes to almonds? Why isn't there an opposite to this? "Doctor O'Malley narrowed his hazelnut eyes."

I found that pretty cringeworthy myself (though I liked the story overall for the thinky bits, even with its flaws).  Love this post about the almond eyes sloppy writing shortcut:
http://clairelight.typepad.com/seelight/2006/09/almond_eyes.html



That post is awful science.  Note how they DON'T overlay the almonds on the pictures of the Asian actors.  The "almond eye" thing bothers me almost as much as "mahogany skin", but the post is just not good science, and proves nothing.

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Talia

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Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 09:10:10 PM
Edit: One last nitpick. Can we stop comparing Asian peoples' eyes to almonds? Why isn't there an opposite to this? "Doctor O'Malley narrowed his hazelnut eyes."

I found that pretty cringeworthy myself (though I liked the story overall for the thinky bits, even with its flaws).  Love this post about the almond eyes sloppy writing shortcut:
http://clairelight.typepad.com/seelight/2006/09/almond_eyes.html


  Note how they DON'T overlay the almonds on the pictures of the Asian actors. 

Huh? Yes they do.

The bottom two of the layered pictures are Asian.



Anarkey

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Reply #6 on: March 18, 2011, 11:45:26 AM
That post is awful science.  Note how they DON'T overlay the almonds on the pictures of the Asian actors.  The "almond eye" thing bothers me almost as much as "mahogany skin", but the post is just not good science, and proves nothing.

I'm a little bemused by this response.  It's as though I went out to the garden, pulled a tomato off the vine, offered it up for tastings, and you came in, took a bite, and said, "Dude, worst cake ever."

In the first place, I'll reiterate what Talia said: you're mistaken, look again, the post does overlay the almonds on the Asian actors.

In the second place, the post isn't science at all so how can it be good (or bad) science?  Science may have a lot to commend it, but it is a terrible tool for changing people's behavior.  Rhetoric, which I think more accurately defines the post I linked, has a two thousand year history of being precisely the correct tool for swaying opinion.  And granted, some people do include science as a piece of their rhetoric, but it's certainly not a mandatory piece, nor even the preferred piece.  Not only that, science has a particularly bad track record when it comes to race issues, as well, propping up all sorts of stereotypes under the "everyone knows" banner and creating whole cloth fake models that misrepresent reality and which society is still struggling to dismantle. 

When I'm dealing with sloppy and clichéd writing, I never say to myself, "SCIENCE will fix this!"  It seems odd to me that anyone would, even in science fiction.

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tinygaia

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Reply #7 on: March 18, 2011, 01:11:14 PM
When I'm dealing with sloppy and clichéd writing, I never say to myself, "SCIENCE will fix this!" 
I'm going to start saying that. Every chance I get.



Devoted135

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Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 02:03:19 PM
Not only that, science has a particularly bad track record when it comes to race issues, as well, propping up all sorts of stereotypes under the "everyone knows" banner and creating whole cloth fake models that misrepresent reality and which society is still struggling to dismantle. 

I think you're confusing "Science" with "People with an agenda (sometimes scientists) who use rhetoric dressed up as science to propagate their bigoted views."

I actually agree with your overall point, and maybe it's not even worth pointing this out, but as a scientist this sentence just got to me. It's akin to saying "Germany has a track record of trying to kill off the Jewish nation" when what you really mean is "These crazy people who were German used to try and exterminate all of the Jews." (I tried to come up with a less inflammatory example but this was the clearest one I can think of at the moment.)



Anarkey

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Reply #9 on: March 19, 2011, 11:41:04 AM
I think you're confusing "Science" with "People with an agenda (sometimes scientists) who use rhetoric dressed up as science to propagate their bigoted views."

I actually agree with your overall point, and maybe it's not even worth pointing this out, but as a scientist this sentence just got to me. It's akin to saying "Germany has a track record of trying to kill off the Jewish nation" when what you really mean is "These crazy people who were German used to try and exterminate all of the Jews." (I tried to come up with a less inflammatory example but this was the clearest one I can think of at the moment.)

Uhm, no.  Said what I meant and meant what I said, thanks.

Your sentence makes it seem like a bad apples problem.   I'm sure there are bad apples in science; that idiot of the  autism/vaccine fraud leaps immediately to mind as an example.  But I'm talking about a historical problem with science itself, as the result of being something carried out by people who live in cultures which have race issues and who bring those issues to the models they create to explain the world.  The problem here is, or at least has been historically, endemic and intrinsic and has nothing to do with individual agendas.  Science doesn't get to be sacrosanct.  It has the same flaws as any other cultural institution which presumes to explain the way the world works.

I would never write your second sentence, because it's weird and convoluted, though I'm perfectly comfortable saying, for example, "Germany has a bad track record with precipitating wars."  If you start two world wars in less than fifty years, that's a fair characterization, if a bit harsh.  Or "Germany has a bad track record with genocide" which I think is more accurate than what you wrote.

To be fair, I'd say both those sentences about the United States, too, or the former Soviet Union, so it's not exactly a pick on Germany position, it's more of a pick on militaristic nations with more power than sense position.

Edited to remove inappropriate public comment about posting styles.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 12:46:22 PM by Anarkey »

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eytanz

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Reply #10 on: March 19, 2011, 12:16:21 PM
Ok, moderatory note here - I'm calling and end to the discussion of posting styles. Please, everyone, refrain from telling other posters you know what they mean better than they do - but, if anyone has a problem with another poster's style, it's best to address that by PM to either the other poster and me, rather than put it in an episode thread.

However, back to the topic at hand - I do feel, Anarkey, that you're conflating science with attitudes and actions that are held by researchers and people making policies based on science. I'm not saying it's just a few bad apples, but rather that I don't understand what you mean when you say that there's a historical problem with science, as opposed to a historical problem with scientists; could you please give examples of what you mean (or, if you feel that this is not a useful dichotomy, explain why)?

(Edited to fix bad tag)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 12:42:12 PM by eytanz »



Anarkey

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Reply #11 on: March 19, 2011, 12:40:49 PM
Ok, moderatory note here - I'm calling and end to the discussion of posting styles. Please, everyone, refrain from telling other posters you know what they mean better than they do - but, if anyone has a problem with another poster's style, it's best to address that by PM to either the other poster and me, rather than put it in an episode thread.

Yes.  You're right.  Sorry.  I'll edit my post accordingly.

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Unblinking

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Reply #12 on: March 21, 2011, 04:55:40 PM
However, back to the topic at hand - I do feel, Anarkey, that you're conflating science with attitudes and actions that are held by researchers and people making policies based on science. I'm not saying it's just a few bad apples, but rather that I don't understand what you mean when you say that there's a historical problem with science, as opposed to a historical problem with scientists; could you please give examples of what you mean (or, if you feel that this is not a useful dichotomy, explain why)?

This was my reaction too.  Maybe my semantics are off, but to me, the word "science" taken by itself is referring to the abtract concept, not those claiming to use the concept, or the applications of the concept.  There are lots of examples of bad applications of science as well as bad scientists, but science as a concept isn't to blame for these.  I'm trying to think of a similar example to illustrate...  The Germany example doesn't seem to fit because "Germany" is concrete, referring to a specific geographic and political entity.

I don't disagree with your statements that historically scientists have created worldviews that are warped by race issues.  But if their conclusions are changed by their prejudices, then their conclusions are not objective.  If their conclusions are not objective, then what they are doing is not science.  That doesn't make these scientist's behavior any better, rather it makes them hypocritical on top of everything else--presenting their own prejudices and labelling it as science.  Just because a person labels their work as "science" doesn't make it so.  I'm sure that many a con man selling miracle elixirs concocted from piss and ink would have claimed that their formula was discovered through science, too, but I wouldn't fault "science" itself for their lies. But I'd still say that "scientists" have a bad track record, rather than "science" itself.

Anyway, I guess maybe I'm digging down into semantics too much.  I have a similar nitpick when StarShipSofa has their Interrogations segment in which one of the questions is "Has science fiction ever disappointed you?"  It doesn't make sense to me for "science fiction" to disappoint a person because it is too abstract.  "Have science fiction stories/authors ever disappointed you?" would make much more sense.


« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 04:59:28 PM by Unblinking »



Gamercow

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Reply #13 on: March 21, 2011, 08:26:50 PM
In the first place, I'll reiterate what Talia said: you're mistaken, look again, the post does overlay the almonds on the Asian actors.

In the second place, the post isn't science at all so how can it be good (or bad) science?  Science may have a lot to commend it, but it is a terrible tool for changing people's behavior.  Rhetoric, which I think more accurately defines the post I linked, has a two thousand year history of being precisely the correct tool for swaying opinion.  And granted, some people do include science as a piece of their rhetoric, but it's certainly not a mandatory piece, nor even the preferred piece.  Not only that, science has a particularly bad track record when it comes to race issues, as well, propping up all sorts of stereotypes under the "everyone knows" banner and creating whole cloth fake models that misrepresent reality and which society is still struggling to dismantle. 

When I'm dealing with sloppy and clichéd writing, I never say to myself, "SCIENCE will fix this!"  It seems odd to me that anyone would, even in science fiction.

First: Yes, you are correct, they do overlay almonds on the Asian actors.  They did not do a very good job of showing which "matched" and which did not.

The author of that article puts forth a scientific framework of hypothesis, experiment, conclusion.  But the experiment does not support the conclusion, therefore, bad science. The article is is rhetoric, as you state, and is at the end of things, meaningless.  I see no point or merit in it.  You are correct that rhetoric is used to sway opinion, but it does not sway fact.  I might be able to get you to say there are five lights, but in the end, if there are four lights, there are four lights. 

This does not mean that Asians have almond eyes.  Just that that article is flawed.

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eytanz

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Reply #14 on: March 21, 2011, 10:43:34 PM
The article does not make any claims to being scientific. It aims to provide an illustration that, for a (putatively) randomly picked sample of celebrity eyes, almonds are a better match to the eyes of Caucasians than to Asians. That is not an experiment, that is an example, and is presented as such.

The structure of "thesis; demonstration; conclusion" is not unique to science - it is basic essay writing. I expect it from all my students, regardless of whether the paper they are writing is scientific or not.

As to the substance of the article, there is also no claim there that Asian eyes in no way resemble almonds; just that the association between Asian eyes for almonds is not based on the actual shape of Asian eyes. It is sufficient for the point made that the white eyes also resemble almonds; the fact that the Asian eyes resemble almonds less strengthens the point, but is in no way necessary.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 10:47:08 PM by eytanz »



eytanz

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I've split this topic off the main Endosymbiont thread as it grew to fill up nearly a whole page of that thread. Feel free to continue the discussion, though.



Anarkey

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Reply #16 on: March 22, 2011, 01:07:27 AM

However, back to the topic at hand - I do feel, Anarkey, that you're conflating science with attitudes and actions that are held by researchers and people making policies based on science. I'm not saying it's just a few bad apples, but rather that I don't understand what you mean when you say that there's a historical problem with science, as opposed to a historical problem with scientists; could you please give examples of what you mean (or, if you feel that this is not a useful dichotomy, explain why)?

Hmmm, how to explain. 

Useful to define what I mean by science?  Science is all the activity involved with the systematic study of the physical world, using observation and experiment. 

(Yeah, I had help, but I wanted to be precise).

If we take all that activity together, in the aggregate, and we study it, then we can see patterns emerge, right?  Like with anything else.  Look, English poetry of the eighteenth century has these things in common and we'll call it Romantic poetry.  And the patterns that emerge are what I'm calling the track record.  It's not really about individual scientists.  In fact, to make it about individual scientists obscures the pattern (it's just the one crooked guy, or the five ideologically compromised folk, or the fifteen deluded people) and potentially denies the fundamental flaws in the scientific method.  Making it about individuals is like saying "well, if you do science right, then these things don't happen."  Well who exactly was doing science wrong and gave us eugenics?  Because eugenics is still scientifically valid, though morally reprehensible.   

Science has issues.  It has endemic flaws.  And the flaws don't always boil down to who is measuring the test tubes, they sometimes boil down to the scientific method itself. 

The sad part about all this is that I think these flaws can be countered, accounted for, and compensated for to get better science (and better scientists), but refusal to acknowledge that science itself might have problems pretty much kills any hope for improvement. 

I love science.  I think the scientific method matches how my brain works, and maybe how lots of people's brains work.  I have boundless curiosity about how the world works, and I love science's ever evolving picture of what, frex, dinosaurs were like.  When I was a kid, dinosaurs were never drawn with feathers.  Now they're rarely drawn without.  It's so freaking cool. 

But you know, science still has problems, still not perfect, still has room for being better and not just at the need more data end of things.

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That's because science isn't a worldview; it's a method for investigation.  Expecting moral heuristics from a pragmatic investigative standpoint and calling it flawed when it doesn't deliver is akin to being angry that the sun creates too much heat and light. 



Scattercat

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That is, to say that science is flawed because it lacks a moral element is to misunderstand the nature of science.  A fork is not flawed because you can't use it to eat soup; a spoon is not a flawed fork with only one blunt tine instead of three or four sharp ones.

To bring the metaphor closer to the actual relationship, consider a gun.  A gun is a tool for killing.  It has no moral dimension in itself; a good gun is one that is good at killing.  Recall "Rejiggering the Thingamajig."  Was that gun a better gun when you added a moral judgment capability to it?  No.  It was, in fact, rendered almost useless as a gun, advocating for or against various uses of itself and becoming unwieldy to the point of worthlessness.

Science is a tool.  Its purpose is to determine the accuracy of a given prediction about the world.  Science with an inherent moral judgment would not be better science.  In fact, science with a moral judgment is what gave us the much-decried eugenics.  The scientists in question considered it a moral duty to uplift and improve the human race, using their own idiosyncratic value judgments to determine what counted as an improvement.  The science was bent to a predetermined goal, and therefore became bad science.  It is crucial to understand that science is not, cannot, and should not be accountable for the uses to which it is put, any more than any other tool can be judged by the uses to which it is put.  Morality and veracity are not the same realm.

This is not to say that morality is useless or irrelevant.  It is not, however, part of science, and science is not weakened or impaired by its absence.  Morality is what lets us decide when and how to use our tool of science; it's a different thing, with a different purpose.  As well call morality "flawed" because it can't measure whether or not an action is effective in its stated goal.  You can't use moral judgment to determine if a particular medicine is effective treatment, and I challenge you to claim that morality is therefore flawed or problematic as a result.



Anarkey

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To bring the metaphor closer to the actual relationship, consider a gun.  A gun is a tool for killing.  It has no moral dimension in itself; a good gun is one that is good at killing.  Recall "Rejiggering the Thingamajig."  Was that gun a better gun when you added a moral judgment capability to it?  No.  It was, in fact, rendered almost useless as a gun, advocating for or against various uses of itself and becoming unwieldy to the point of worthlessness.

Thank you!  Thank you!  Thank you!

This is exactly my point! 

Tools have records of use.  Science has a record of use.  In my first post you'll remember I said science was a crappy tool for swaying opinion.  Yes, science is a tool.  And like guns, there's stuff it's awful at. 

If I look at a gun and ask "How many times did a gun cure cancer?"

Well, none, right?

So if I look at science and ask "How often did science get used as a tool for racial oppresion?"

Oh, repeatedly?  May be used that way still today? Wow, science sure does suck at race issues, doesn't it?

That is ALL I was saying.  And when I did people were all like "science is ephemeral, beautiful, abstract perfection!  You can't assign actual qualities to it!  You can't blame it for shit gone wrong!  That's people, honey."

I guess these are the same people who think that guns don't kill people, people do.  Actually, it's both, right?  False dichotomy, there.  The gun tool and the person work together to kill people.  It's fair for me to examine the tool on its merits, or flaws.

No, I can and do blame science.  It's a crappy tool for a whole host of things that people keep trying to use it for anyway.

Also?  Agree with you about the worldview, but think your formulation is naive.  What science is and how it operates and is used in society and by people are two different things.  I think you can see examples EVERYWHERE of science as worldview.  I think I could argue this thread as an example, because it all started with "that's bad science!  I can safely ignore that!"  Uh no.  It's not actually science at all.  Not everything is, unless science is your worldview and not your tool.  That was followed by elevation of science to divine abstraction, to merely the pure concept sullied only by the people who misuse it.   Man, if I made that same argument for religion people would call bullshit all over the place.  And they'd be right, too. 

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eytanz

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I think that all Scattercat's gun example shows is that Scattercat chose a bad analogy. Guns are tools *for* killing things. They don't really do anything else. Sometimes the things they kill are people, and sometimes the things they kill are animals, but if you're using a gun as a tool, you're trying to kill something.

A better analogy is a knife. A knife is not a tool for killing things. It's a tool for cutting things. There are plenty of non-violent uses for a knife - I use one every day to cook and eat my food. But there are plenty of people, now and throughout history, that used knives as tools for killing. Do we then look at the history of knives and think that knives are somehow morally implicated?

Or take another anaology. The sun is not a tool in that it was not constructed, but it is a perpetual (on a human timeframe) source of energy. This energy, daily, is used as fuel. It can also cause death and injury if exposed to carelessly - I've had sun stroke, it's not fun. There have been many societies in the world that have worshipped the sun as a god. Some chose to carry out this worship peacefully, others through violence (e.g. animal or human sacrifice). Is the sun, then, morally implicated?

And let's take a third analogy. A human right arm can kill people. It can wield a sword or a knife, it can punch someone to death, it can choke someone. It can also do plenty of non-violent actions, but let's look at the right arm of a violent man who has used it to both abuse and murder a series of other humans. Is his right arm morally wrong?

I'm not saying "science is ephemeral, beautiful, abstract perfection!" - I'm saying science is a limited thing that cannot stand on its own. I'm not saying that science shouldn't be judged, I'm saying that science shouldn't be judged out of context, any more than a right arm can be judged without judging the person it is part of. Science does not stand on its own, and attempting to view it on its own makes as much sense as taking the right arms of all the (right handed) people who committed horrific deeds in history and making a generalization over right arms.

And mostly, science is not a world view. There is a world view that worships science - often without understanding it - but that's not part of what science is, any more than the nature of the sun is affected by the actions of sun-worshippers. In your last paragraph, you fall into the trap of implictly comparing science and religion. But while people tend to present those two as equals, the truth is the religion is a much bigger thing than science. Now, if you were comparing religion to the world view that idealises science, that's different - that is comparable. But that's not what you said, and I don't think that's what you meant.



Devoted135

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No, I can and do blame science.  It's a crappy tool for a whole host of things that people keep trying to use it for anyway.

Also?  Agree with you about the worldview, but think your formulation is naive.  What science is and how it operates and is used in society and by people are two different things.  I think you can see examples EVERYWHERE of science as worldview.  I think I could argue this thread as an example, because it all started with "that's bad science!  I can safely ignore that!"  Uh no.  It's not actually science at all.  Not everything is, unless science is your worldview and not your tool.  That was followed by elevation of science to divine abstraction, to merely the pure concept sullied only by the people who misuse it.   Man, if I made that same argument for religion people would call bullshit all over the place.  And they'd be right, too.  

I guess I'm a little confused how these two thoughts can be reconciled: On the one hand, you blame science for being a "crappy tool" and on the other hand you admit that "what science is and how it operates and is used in society and by people are two different things."

It's very true that many people idealize science and have shaped their whole worldview around misappropriating science in this way, but that applies to "how it operates and is used in society", and not "what science is". I have a hard time with the idea of blaming science for being used poorly, much like eytanz's example of blaming the sun for people's misuse of it. I don't blame the sun for people sacrificing their daughters to it any more than I blame science for politicians misusing its findings. Rather, I blame the people who use their tools poorly.


edited to fix a silly it's/its mistake
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 03:55:40 PM by Devoted135 »



Devoted135

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Oh, and an anecdote from my undergrad days :)

Every year on the very first day of the freshman year gen bio class, the crotchety former department chair walks in and delivers a 45 minute lecture on the importance of never being teleological and anthropomorphic. How the scientific community would end if you were to stoop to being teleological and anthropomorphic! How it would lead to the worst fate imaginable if you were to ever be teleological and anthropomorphic!

And then all the freshmen go home and find in their dictionaries:
teleological: the belief that purpose and design are a part of or are apparent in nature.
anthropomorphic: ascribing human form or attributes to a being or thing not human, especially to a deity.
(from dictionary.com because it was easiest)


And then the biology education continues and for the ease of language profs and students alike proceed to be teleological and anthropomorphic nearly every day.

Now, working in an HIV research lab, we talk about how the virus needs to produce escape mutations to avoid the immune system and how the immune cells want to be able to target HIV-infected cells. Of course we don't actually mean that the virus is able to need anything because it just isn't that complex of a system, but it's a whole lot easier to phrase things that way.

My point is it is so easy to anthropomorphize science, and we all do it every day, but when it comes to a thoughtful discussion like this one, it gets in the way if we forget that science really is just a series of yes/no experiments and anything beyond that is up to human interpretation.



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Edit: One last nitpick. Can we stop comparing Asian peoples' eyes to almonds?

No, sorry.  :P

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So to turn the question around (and getting back on topic), how would one describe Asian eyes? I know with N.K. Jemisin wrote a post to brainstorm different ways to describe brown skin. (I like describe mine as brewed Lipton tea, myself). Is there a similar one for Asian features?

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