Author Topic: EP286: The ’76 Goldwater Dime  (Read 30927 times)

CryptoMe

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Reply #25 on: April 07, 2011, 07:16:42 AM
Interesting, but quickly forgotten (because nothing worth remembering happens).



matweller

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Reply #26 on: April 07, 2011, 02:15:27 PM
I don't think it's wrong, necessarily, to forego plot and conflict, but it's not a narrative choice that feels strong to me.

Don't tell Stephen King, he's got at least 10 bestsellers under his belt that are almost nothing but 400 page studies of moment and character - The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, Gerald's Game, The Gunslinger, etc.

And lo and behold, I tend to find his more self-indulgently navel-gazing books to be bland and lacking zing.
They're not my favorites either. My point was that bestsellers of a much longer form come from not much more base material than this, so there has to be a market out there. And whereas many hours' investment in reading can get to be a little tedious, a 20 minute audio narrative character study is something I actually find quite enjoyable with a narrator that really brings out the character. Norm certainly accomplished that.

It's about frakkin time someone pointed out how frikkin NICE Talia is.  I duck my head into all the main fiction-podcast forums: the Escapepod Trio, Drabblecast and StarshipSofa, and I've never EVER seen anyone more consistently positive and encouraging than Talia- even when offering her deeper criticisms.
I just now noticed she was a MOD here at EA, and wanted to offer my personal slow golf clap in recognition.  Talia, your constructive level-headededness is something we should all aspire to.
I concur wholeheartedly.



Devoted135

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Reply #27 on: April 07, 2011, 02:57:28 PM
I liked this one as a character study, and agree with Talia that this guy is probably not the most well-adjusted person in the world so it's good to take his word with a grain of salt. Also, the narration really made this one for me; I doubt it would have been so enjoyable in the hands (voice?) of a less experienced reader.



Devoted135

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Reply #28 on: April 07, 2011, 03:06:19 PM

-I just wanted it to ... I don't know... do a little more. The concept was so fantastic in a Twilight Zone sort of way that I wanted it to go farther than: "Yes, it's amazing and creepy and unbelieveable. Still, I just put them in a box and I treasure them and that's all." How exactly to play that out, I don't know, but there you are.


Having never watched the Twilight Zone, my immediate association was with Fringe and all the cool little differences between the two universes (they stopped using bic pens forever ago, so seeing one was a clue!) but I came away with the same feeling of "aww, but there was so much more to explore!"



Listener

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Reply #29 on: April 07, 2011, 03:22:31 PM
Coins from the "Impossible Dreams" universe slowly find their way into ours, and one man obsesses over them.  I'd prefer to watch the movies from another world...

Yeah, that's pretty much what I took away from it. It's like "On a Blade of Grass", but for coin collecting. Enjoyable to listen to, but not deep enough to make a lot of commentary.

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stePH

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Reply #30 on: April 07, 2011, 04:04:23 PM

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


Scattercat

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Reply #31 on: April 07, 2011, 04:09:19 PM
I'm not sure I see where the fact that some novels that have a high proportion of character-building introspection in addition to their plots are best-sellers somehow proves that this story made the right narrative choice in not having a plot at all, nor am I certain where I claimed that the fact that this story's choices did not seem strong to me implicated the marketability of character studies.  I'm not really interested in arguing about the relative quality of Stephen King's writing.  (For the record, I think he, himself, is a pretty stand-up guy, but I'm very iffy on most of his fiction, which I find rambling and indulgent, shading to purple on more than a few occasions.)

This story did not have any action or much of an arc.  That's not really a debatable point.  Even within the narrative of the protagonist's life, he has remained largely unchanged by his experiences, and there is no moment of revelation or climax.  I personally find that to be a weaker choice than to provide some sort of motion between the start and the finish, and I do not think that one must necessarily make a tradeoff between intense character study and internal or external character motion (c.f. "Impossible Dreams," which explored a very similar idea).  It was a good character study, which means I like it better than "On a Blade of Grass," which was similarly motionless but did not provide a coherent or deep character to explore, but I do not find the story qua the story memorable or intriguing; I would like to see this character in a larger milieu, though I have some doubts about his suitability as a long-term protagonist as he is.

Stephen King doesn't really enter into this.



Unblinking

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Reply #32 on: April 07, 2011, 04:18:33 PM
Also, with Stephen King, there's the added factor that by recent years he's gained enough acclaim that he has pretty much unkillable momentum.  He can write what he wants, and he'll always find an editor for it, and plenty of buyers.  That's not even a criticism of those buyers, since I generally am one of them (though I'm still a little annoyed I actually paid for the atrocity that was "Cell"). 






matweller

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Reply #33 on: April 07, 2011, 05:17:34 PM
Deep breaths, 'Cat. I was not attempting to negate your point nor argue with it. Originally, it was just a one off chuckling comment saying I get that, but obviously this ain't the first time, it ain't the worst time, and some folks even managed to have a little fun.

It's okay, just write me off as somebody who doesn't know 'real art' and forget I spoke word one.

Tabla Rasa, anyone?



kibitzer

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Reply #34 on: April 08, 2011, 02:50:57 AM
It's about frakkin time someone pointed out how frikkin NICE Talia is.  I duck my head into all the main fiction-podcast forums: the Escapepod Trio, Drabblecast and StarshipSofa, and I've never EVER seen anyone more consistently positive and encouraging than Talia- even when offering her deeper criticisms.
I just now noticed she was a MOD here at EA, and wanted to offer my personal slow golf clap in recognition.  Talia, your constructive level-headededness is something we should all aspire to.  Especially Steph. 
See what i mean?  Even I am not exempt! :P

Are you for real? She just added fuel to the fire of Cake vs. Pie in another thread!!! Call that "positive and encouraging"?? I think not!!

(My sense of humour sometimes gets me into trouble. I'M KIDDING.)

What I really want to say is: Talia is just as nice as pie.

Oops.


Talia

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Reply #35 on: April 08, 2011, 04:00:05 AM

What I really want to say is: Talia is just as nice as pie.





kibitzer

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knigget

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Reply #37 on: April 08, 2011, 10:14:17 PM
Well, I really really liked it.

Plot: yes there is too a conflict: between business-as-usual view of the world, and that nameless dread of eldritch gods out of Lovecraft.  The story isn't about the coins, it's about the collector.  And Norm gives it just a perfect on-the-edge-of-demented reading that only Gene Wilder can do better.

http://www.apoGrypha.blogspot.com

What would have been written. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


knigget

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Reply #38 on: April 08, 2011, 10:14:45 PM
Well, I really really liked it.

Plot: yes there is too a conflict: between business-as-usual view of the world, and that nameless dread of eldritch gods out of Lovecraft.  The story isn't about the coins, it's about the collector.  And Norm gives it just a perfect on-the-edge-of-demented reading that only Gene Wilder can do better.

http://www.apoGrypha.blogspot.com

What would have been written. 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


mvonderahe

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Reply #39 on: April 09, 2011, 11:26:32 PM
The narration for this story was spot-fu**ing-on. Brilliant. Mr Sherman, you drew us right into the protagonist's mind, in all its obsessive, delusional (or was it?), paranoid (or was it?) glory. This performance forced me to re-up my annual donation months early. Great job. Thanks for sharing it with us.



NoraReed

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Reply #40 on: April 11, 2011, 06:01:18 AM
You know, I went through and read the criticisms of this story and totally agreed with them, but am still totally sold on it. I'm pretty sure it's just Norm's narration that makes it work well for me. I'm pretty sure he could read Bulwer-Lytton and make it compelling.



Nobilis

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Reply #41 on: April 13, 2011, 10:52:23 AM
Here we have another story that's mostly setting ("A world where coins slip between alternate universes") with a bit of character ("A coin collector obsesses on finding these extremely rare items") and no plot.

Can anyone guess my reaction?  I knew you could.



stePH

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Reply #42 on: April 13, 2011, 01:58:48 PM
Here we have another story that's mostly setting ("A world where coins slip between alternate universes") with a bit of character ("A coin collector obsesses on finding these extremely rare items") and no plot.

Can anyone guess my reaction?  I knew you could.

Actually, it's implied that travelers from other universes are spending the coins in this one; the coins aren't just coming over by themselves. But I share your opinion of the episode (I hesitate to call it a "story".)

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Gamercow

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Reply #43 on: April 13, 2011, 04:05:41 PM
Actually, it's implied that travelers from other universes are spending the coins in this one; the coins aren't just coming over by themselves. But I share your opinion of the episode (I hesitate to call it a "story".)

Actually, it is posited at one point in the story that the coins COULD just be coming over by themselves.

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stePH

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Reply #44 on: April 13, 2011, 04:43:35 PM
Actually, it's implied that travelers from other universes are spending the coins in this one; the coins aren't just coming over by themselves. But I share your opinion of the episode (I hesitate to call it a "story".)

Actually, it is posited at one point in the story that the coins COULD just be coming over by themselves.

Ah. Well, I didn't like the narrative enough to listen for that level of detail. I'll take your word for it.

"Nerdcore is like playing Halo while getting a blow-job from Hello Kitty."
-- some guy interviewed in Nerdcore Rising


Ocicat

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Reply #45 on: April 13, 2011, 06:35:22 PM
Actually, it's implied that travelers from other universes are spending the coins in this one; the coins aren't just coming over by themselves. But I share your opinion of the episode (I hesitate to call it a "story".)

Actually, it is posited at one point in the story that the coins COULD just be coming over by themselves.

Which struck me as the character basically saying "there might be exciting travel between the universes, and infinite possibility for exploration, but you know what?  I don't care how it happens because coins coins coins!"



Mav.Weirdo

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Reply #46 on: April 13, 2011, 07:45:47 PM
I thought it was a well minted character vignette.



NoNotRogov

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Reply #47 on: April 14, 2011, 01:55:44 AM
I thought it was a well minted character vignette.



Dohoho!

Anywho, alternate history is a hobby of mine - so let's examine that aspect of the story, shall we?'

A quick refresher on the parallel coins mentioned in the story:

Quote
Goldwater '76 dime
Joe Kennedy Sr. '72 half dollar
John Brown '27 penny
Eugene Victor Debs '44 quarter
Huey Long '58 nickel
William Randolph Hearst '69 silver dollar
Robert E. Lee 1888 three cent piece
Lindbergh '65 dime
Roy Cohn '92 quarter
P.T. Barnum '35 penny
Herbert Hoover '86 nickel
Benedict Arnold '98 quarter

Now what kind of alternate timelines (aTL's) could these each be from? None of these should be too hard because as the story implies, none really need a strong Point of Divergence (PoD) from Our Time Line (OTL). These are all public figures who could have been president (except for John Brown which seems more of a case of someone considered a hero by an ATL society being venerated on a coin).

Goldwater was a Senator, Papa Joe was a diplomat, Debs was the leader of the Socialist Party, Long was a governor, Cohn was a Justice Dep. attorney, Hoover actually was president.

Hearst was a newspaperman who exerted significant influence over policy via public opinion, Lindbergh was the darling of the America First political movement, Barnum was one of America's most beloved public speakers, Arnold and Lee were generals. All of which are plausible jumping points for presidential runs.

Even in a world closely resembling ours in most major points up to the election, many of these men could have become president in the normal course of events. The one's that would have required major PODs quite earlier would primarily be Lee (to prevent the Civil War or prevent Virginia from siding with the Confederacy or weaken his loyalty to Virginia somehow), Kennedy (to either keep the U.S. out of WWII or prevent him from staking his career on appeasement), Arnold (to prevent him from being sidelined in the Continental Army in favor of the less competent gloryhogging general Gates, which caused the dissatisfaction that led him eventually to treason), and most of all Debs. While these other men primarily need things differently in their own lives, not changing their personalities or world events but more along the lines of different decisions or plausible happenstances, Debs requires a significantly different America if we concede the point of him being elected as a socialist and not being an alternate Debs who never got arrested for the Pullman Strike and never read Marx.

But this is all preface. What about the kind of world these men would each leave after a presidency that would think highly enough of them to put their faces on currency?

Goldwater would be frankly as controversial as if we had Reagan or LBJ money today - we don't even have JFK money, and he was practically canonized after his assassination. Modern presidents are too close to modern politics and thus controversial due to partisanship. But if FDR could be put on the dime just one year after his death, putting a mid-60's president on the coin in the 70's isn't totally implausible.

Joe Sr., Huey Long, and Lindbergh could all be alternative Depression/WWII presidents - associated with that challenging time in American history and commemorated for it.

If America changed enough to elect Debs president, he would be transformative enough or a symbol of an existing transformation enough to merit in the eyes of the public a coin.

The rest I'll leave for now for possible thought or discussion, as I seem to be rambling.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 02:18:22 AM by NoNotRogov »



CryptoMe

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Reply #48 on: April 14, 2011, 06:55:03 AM
Well I, for one, enjoyed that ramble.
Thank you, NoNotRogov.



Gamercow

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Reply #49 on: April 14, 2011, 12:56:33 PM
The one's that would have required major PODs quite earlier would primarily be Lee (to prevent the Civil War or prevent Virginia from siding with the Confederacy or weaken his loyalty to Virginia somehow),

That's an interesting take, and absolutely valid, as Lee was asked to become a general for the Union.  I think his answer was "I cannot betray my country." meaning Virginia.  I took the Lee money to indicate that in that time line the Confederate states won the war and became their own nation. 

Quote
we don't even have JFK money,

No?

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