PC159: Judgment of Swords and Souls

[Talia]

PodCastle 159: Judgment of Swords and Souls

by Saladin Ahmed.

Read by Stephanie Morris.

Originally appeared in Intergalactic Medicine Show.

Layla bas Layla’s breath came raggedly and her blue silks were soaked
with sweat, but she was pleased with her performance. Ten beheaded in
threescore water-drops. She lowered her forked sword.

The clay-and-rag dummy skulls littered the packed-dirt training yard
of the Lodge of God. Boulder-faced Shaykh Saif kicked one aside. He wore
the same habit of silk blouse and breeches as she – he had been a
member of the Order for thirty years longer than she — but even smiling,
his craggy features somehow made the bright blue garments seem muted.

“Only seven-and-ten years old, and you’re better with the forked
sword than I was as a Dervish in my prime. And I was the best, God
forgive me my boasts!”

Layla bowed and sheathed her sword. She ran a hand over her stubbly
head and wondered idly how it would feel to have long hair like the
women outside the Lodge of God.

As if he sensed her thoughts, Shaykh Saif’s smile faded. “Almighty
God willing, someday perhaps your soul will be as disciplined as your
sword arm!” There was a reprimand in his eyes as well as his words.
Layla fingered the red silk scarf wound around her blue scabbard, the
only difference between her garments and her teacher’s. It was the
cause of the discord that was tearing the Lodge of God apart.

She said nothing.

Rated PG.

[yicheng]

Great world-building.  Good imagery.

I felt the ending was a real let-down though.  After all that she and mentors sacrificed, she just gives up her calling (something she's spent the better part of her life doing) in order to become some sort of wandering bandit.  That part just seems completely incongruous with the rest of the story.  It makes me think that if her morality and code were that easy to set down, perhaps she doesn't belong in the Dervish Order after all.

[dragonsbreath]

I liked the ending. It shows that corruption is found everywhere, especially when human beings are involved. History as shown that the worst form of corruption is found in organized religions covering all faith traditions. This corruption is so destructive in that it can destroy a person's faith in that which is truly beyond corruption - God.

[Scattercat]

I was a little underwhelmed, honestly, especially given how much I liked the previous two stories.  There weren't a lot of surprises.  No twists or new or interesting ways to look at things.  The seemingly harmless oath is indeed harmless.  The good guys are strong and brave and undone only by treachery.  The small-minded petty people are revealed to be small-minded and petty.  Then we end with the final scene from "Hamlet," except that instead of dying tragically, the protag just gets kicked out of the place where nobody likes her and her only two friends have just died.  (Really, why would she have wanted to stay?  Around about the time she "realizes" that they intend to exile her, I was going, "So?  Sounds awesome.  This place kind of sucks anyway.")

It was nicely written and it passed the time, but I didn't find it particularly affecting.  It felt like this was a backstory written about a (perhaps overly) beloved badass female swordswoman character from some other piece.  (In particular, the ending lines about finding "many more" pieces of red silk felt odd for the character as we'd seen her.  She had previously been conflicted and insistent on the scarf because of her mother, but then suddenly she's actually just vain and wants lots more silk scarves?  I felt like I was supposed to go, "Ah, that's why [famous character from other story] is always wearing those fifteen scarves in every shade of red," but since I didn't have that kind of point of reference, it just came across as an abrupt shift in her attitude.)

[iamafish]

I liked the conflict that the MC experienced between her commitment to God and commitment to her mother, although i would have a bit more self-doubt in her mind. She never experiences any cognitive dissonance between wearing the scarf to honour her mother and not wearing it because it is forbidden. The conflict was all external.

Once this conflict resolved itself into something much larger (as it was always going to), i found the plot fairly standard and uninspiring. I guessed the poison bit almost immediately - that whole thing is a bit tired in the form it arrives in here; you really need to do something interesting with it for it to be effective.

the world building was pretty cool. I especially liked the religious sect that was created here. it was a very interesting take on several different traditions from around the world - the scriptures were fairly western, but the warrior-monks seemed to be more reminiscent of a more eastern tradition.

cool story, but not one i'd return to in a hurry.

[Leprejuan]

I was a little underwhelmed, honestly, especially given how much I liked the previous two stories.  There weren't a lot of surprises.  No twists or new or interesting ways to look at things.  The seemingly harmless oath is indeed harmless.  The good guys are strong and brave and undone only by treachery.  The small-minded petty people are revealed to be small-minded and petty.  Then we end with the final scene from "Hamlet," except that instead of dying tragically, the protag just gets kicked out of the place where nobody likes her and her only two friends have just died.  (Really, why would she have wanted to stay?  Around about the time she "realizes" that they intend to exile her, I was going, "So?  Sounds awesome.  This place kind of sucks anyway.")

It was nicely written and it passed the time, but I didn't find it particularly affecting.  It felt like this was a backstory written about a (perhaps overly) beloved badass female swordswoman character from some other piece.  (In particular, the ending lines about finding "many more" pieces of red silk felt odd for the character as we'd seen her.  She had previously been conflicted and insistent on the scarf because of her mother, but then suddenly she's actually just vain and wants lots more silk scarves?  I felt like I was supposed to go, "Ah, that's why [famous character from other story] is always wearing those fifteen scarves in every shade of red," but since I didn't have that kind of point of reference, it just came across as an abrupt shift in her attitude.)

This was completely my experience.  After the other two entertaining stories, I may have had high expectations.  I felt as if I was reading the backstory about the red scarf bandit, not an interesting story of its own.  If the character went on and deepened, came to grips with her earlier vanity and lack of foresight, it might be interesting.  For example, she brushes off the death and or maiming SHE did of men who were unimportant to her.  If she were to deal with them as people, that would make a great story.

Having her transfer her insistence on the scarf to just any old silk scarf was uninteresting and unbelievable.  Again, if it is a backstory issue, it's understandable.  Just not good storytelling.

I only wish the ending HAD been more Hamlet-like in that I would have liked Layla bas Layla to have scraped the evil sheik with his own sword.  He would still have died, she might still have been cast out, but it would have been refutation of his lies and would have been more satisfying to me as a reader.  The fact that evil was allowed to stand, good failed, and then she went off to be a bandit left a sour taste for me. I immediately quoted (or misquoted), "Jesus, Grandpa, what did you read me this thing for?" 

[InfiniteMonkey]

Damn, I love me some Saladin Ahmed.

This reads like the beginning of something, the further adventures of the mad female former dervish Layla, part of a larger world.

I do agree that Layla turning the antagonist's sword against him might have been more satisfying, but I get the feeling that's not the author's point, which (IMHO) is the heartbreaking inevitable clash of idealism (Layla) with reality (the corrupt power-hungry Zaid). Simply revealing the instrument of his treachery wouldn't have swayed anyone all that much. It HAD to come down to a bloodbath. Besides, Layla's far too (naively?) idealistic to use poison herself.

[l33tminion]

In particular, the ending lines about finding "many more" pieces of red silk felt odd for the character as we'd seen her.  She had previously been conflicted and insistent on the scarf because of her mother, but then suddenly she's actually just vain and wants lots more silk scarves?

I think the line is meant to read as a bitter, sour-grapes statement from a character who's lost everything:  "Who cares.  It's just a red scarf.  There are other red scarves."

One level out, the color red is a symbol of a fall from grace in that setting.  It's really hammering home with the subtlety of an anvil that the main character hasn't just become an exile, she's turned evil.

I thought it was a good story about how people can make the jump from naive idealist straight to nihilistic realist as soon as they encounter a situation where faith and honor aren't enough.

[Maplesugar]

I also felt "underwhelmed". The ending left me wondering what the point of the story was. I am a great fan of swordswomen who carve their place in a male-dominated society, and was hoping that "Judgment of Swords and Souls" would deliver. I wanted an uplifting, empowering story; instead the main character breaks and flees in the face of tragedy.

[washer]

A lot of people are pointing out that the ending was abrupt and inconsistent with Layla's previously established actions.  I'm in the same camp there.  She was a very devout young woman who'd dedicated her life to these guys' cause, but when she's forced to leave them she pretty much instantly says "Eh, guess I'll start the brigandry."  Didn't add up and it was really jarring to me.  I've listened to a lot of stories here where the denouement threw me for a loop and made me re-examine the story I'd just listened to, but this one was just confusing.

Also on the topic of the ending.  In an opportunity to prevent discord, the one monk judging the competition doesn't deign to notice that both of the bad guys cheat badly.  That in itself seemed strange, but I could see it happening.  What I found unrealistic was that when Layla loudly accuses Zaid of being a poisoner in front of everyone, no one sides with her.  She has not one supporter in the entire monastery (would that even be the right word?).  And not even people supporting her - there isn't a single person who doubts Zaid's account and tries to fight for the other side, or even speak out and say "Hey, something's fishy here."  In real-life, with this competition taking place in plain view of the assembled company, surely someone would have qualms about the events that transpired.

I love Saladin Ahmed's previously two stories, and I think I would have loved this one as well if not for the ending.

[Lionman]

I was a little underwhelmed, honestly, especially given how much I liked the previous two stories.  There weren't a lot of surprises.  No twists or new or interesting ways to look at things.  The seemingly harmless oath is indeed harmless.  The good guys are strong and brave and undone only by treachery.  The small-minded petty people are revealed to be small-minded and petty.  Then we end with the final scene from "Hamlet," except that instead of dying tragically, the protag just gets kicked out of the place where nobody likes her and her only two friends have just died.  (Really, why would she have wanted to stay?  Around about the time she "realizes" that they intend to exile her, I was going, "So?  Sounds awesome.  This place kind of sucks anyway.")

It was nicely written and it passed the time, but I didn't find it particularly affecting.  It felt like this was a backstory written about a (perhaps overly) beloved badass female swordswoman character from some other piece.  (In particular, the ending lines about finding "many more" pieces of red silk felt odd for the character as we'd seen her.  She had previously been conflicted and insistent on the scarf because of her mother, but then suddenly she's actually just vain and wants lots more silk scarves?  I felt like I was supposed to go, "Ah, that's why [famous character from other story] is always wearing those fifteen scarves in every shade of red," but since I didn't have that kind of point of reference, it just came across as an abrupt shift in her attitude.)

I have to agree with Scatter on this on several points.  We got to the end of the story, and then ....we were left wanting.  It felt like a prelude to a more in-depth story.  Don't get me wrong, I liked it.  But, as a reader, I want to hear how Justice is played out for the young lady. So, in that respect, it would make a good opening to a further story.  There was enough detail and good world-building going on, you just wonder why this is all we get.

I thought perhaps later, we might see the fellow who lost his fingers being sent to speak with her, since he would no longer be a threat as a swordsman.  So much left over potential to this little story, it could easily have been drawn out into a Podcastle Giant or longer story.

[Devoted135]

I really liked the beginning to this story, right through the trial. However, as soon as we learned the "rules" for the judgment I knew that something underhanded would happen, and it would likely involve poison. The only surprise for me was that the MC wasn't the one who was poisoned in the initial battle. I re-listened to the denouement, and I guess I can see what the story was going for, but in the end it didn't really take me there.

[Gamercow]

This was good, but not great.  It seemed a little shallow and simple to me, with fairly one dimensional characters that did not stray from their very narrow path.

[lisavilisa]

To me her transition into being a bandit made sense.
She had devoted her body and soul to holy order, only to be constantly told that because of her sex and style of dress that she was inherently weak willed, unintelligent, & being influenced by the evil angel. One can only hear that so long before it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

To me this story is a cautionary tale about religious hypocrisy, if you keep claiming that you are holier and that others are evil for unfounded reasons, eventually you will get a population of people who go around being evil because they were given no other option.

They could have had a great soldier on their side, instead they created an enemy.

[Corcoran]

Not so great. That may be unfair, but it is not easy to like a story in which religion plays a big part and a negative one, as here, I could scream when I hear discussions about holy scripture. I was from 10 to 14 in a boarding school, run by monks. If religion made four years of your live hell on earth, than every story with a negative touch of religion is hard to like. The reading was nice.

[DKT]

Corocoran, I'm slightly confused. Would you have liked the story if you felt it had displayed a more positive aspect of religion?

[Corcoran]

Yes, when in a story religion is used to opress people it hurts me and so I dislike it most of the time

[Scattercat]

Reading history must be a hoot and a half for you.

[Atras]

Not so great. That may be unfair, but it is not easy to like a story in which religion plays a big part and a negative one, as here, I could scream when I hear discussions about holy scripture. I was from 10 to 14 in a boarding school, run by monks. If religion made four years of your live hell on earth, than every story with a negative touch of religion is hard to like. The reading was nice.

Was it the religion that was negative, or was it the corruption of the people in charge?  Use of poison was contrary to their faith, the battle was not supposed to blind or kill, is the religion so bad here?

I liked the story.  Fits the Fantasy genre much better than the surreal road trip stuff.

[Wilson Fowlie]

I liked the story.  Fits the Fantasy genre much better than the surreal road trip stuff.

It fits the genre exactly as well. It fits the aspects of the genre you prefer better.

Having preferences is fine; assuming they apply to the whole genre (or everyone else's preferences), not so much.

[Ocicat]

Actually, this story wasn't fantasy if you ask me.  It's set in an alternate world with alternate history and cultures, but there's no actual magic anywhere in the story.  I don't recall any supernatural elements at all.

Of course, it's still fine for Podcastle to run non-fantasy stories from alternate worlds.  Especially if they have swords in 'em.  I'd be up for a good historical fiction if it's got good swordfighting too - has anyone else read Michael Caborn's Gentelmen of the Road?  It's inspired by Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories, but set in the 10th century middle east, with no fantasy elements - just a ripping adventure yarn.  Fantastic stuff.  And this story reminded me of it, somewhat...

[Rain]

I found the ending weird aswell, but maybe that is because we are looking at it from the wrong perspective.
Look at Layla's actions, she kills a man because she claims he used poison, but i dont think we ever saw any evidence, when people try to stop her she kills and mains several people, she then runs away and we hear her saying that the people of the nearby town are soft, to me that doesnt mean brigandry, but outright killing.
It is probably just me overanalyzing the story, but it kinda makes more sense when you think of Layla as evil from the start.

[kibitzer]

This was beautifully crafted, completely internal consistent, with well realised characters. I loved it, and it definitely sounds like a beginning...

Frankly, I don't understand the comments about lack of depth. What's wrong with a good story, well told?

I hope this isn't a specious or offensive comparison, but it had a kind of "Arabian Nights" flavour to me.

[J.T. Evans]

Wow. Where's the book? This was definitely chapter one material of something much longer and larger. I've seen a few other people on the forum mention "other works" and I'd love to track those down!

The world building (within the limited scope of the monastery) was fantastic as were the religious debates and interpersonal relationships that developed with great depth and detail in such a short work.

Effective and powerful writing.

However... Some of the characters were a little too predictable in their actions, like the poisoner. I saw that coming from a mile away.

[Spindaddy]

I dug the story, but I interpreted the protag was moving not into a life of banditry, but into a life of assassination and vigilante justice. Her uncle is dead, her mentor has been killed and the order she has dedicated her life to has proven itself to be more interested in it's own continued existence than in serving God and it's own laws. She's fairly sure the order will eventually hunt her down or put a price on her head. Disenchanted, disillusioned I can totally see her seeking out corrupt government officials/rulers--men of power-- and striking them down with red as sort of her signature color.

[Corcoran]

Was it the religion that was negative, or was it the corruption of the people in charge?  Use of poison was contrary to their faith, the battle was not supposed to blind or kill, is the religion so bad here?
[/quote]

If I look at it that way, you´re right, it was the use of poison that got me screaming, maybe sometimes I overreact when religion is involved.

[LaShawn]

I really loved the story, but yes, I also felt that this story was chapter one to a much larger story, one that I would be willing to get. And to be honest, I looooved the use of Scripture as a weapon. It brought home the cowardice in using the poisoned sword.

More please, Saladin!

[Rough Week]

I liked this story, it had a fun quality to it, and a very compelling reading/narration too.

The setting was cool, an interesting mix of Eastern and Western that I think is a signature of this author. It was a little light on backstory and what the context of the lodge was, but the descriptions of the environment and characters and their roles was very vivid and engaging, which is more important.

The action did seem to become a little formulaic, especially in the Judgement. I agree with others here that there's no surprises or twists: the good guys are strong and fight fair, the bad guys are sniveling backstabbers who cheat, conflict ensues. Not that this is always a bad thing in a story, but the intrigue is telegraphed pretty clearly early on.

But after the Judgement, the story heads in a new direction. I did not expect what Layla did in response, and where the story went after that. I don't know if I like her decisions or completely understand her motivations for them at the end of the story, since up till then we'd only seen her as a devout righteous girl pursuing her path. But I like that the story went in an unexpected direction. It adds more interest to have an imperfect ending like this, as opposed a more Disney-like resolution where the protagonist goes back to the drawing board, finds some allies, works hard, and eventually rights the wrongs and the bad guys get their comeuppance. It creates a more dynamic setting, and as others have noticed, opens the door to a larger world and a longer set of stories, as opposed to one nice tidy wrapped-up package.

So overall, a fun listen!

[Anarquistador]

Not bad. But of the three Saladin Ahmed stories I've heard on Podcastle so far, I think this is my least favorite. I just couldn't get into it. I thought the dialogue came across a bit stilted, like it was trying too hard to be all "fantasy grammar." And I do share a lot of people's feelings that the ending was just a massive bummer. Poor girl never really had a chance, I suppose, trying to make it in a man's world...

[Anfractuous]

Underwhelmed?  While I agree that Saladin's two previous PodCastle stories were more intricate and perhaps more interesting I thought the exploration of the Layla's character was deeper than we've seen in the past and more compelling.  In any event it's clear at Mr. Ahmed is going to be a force to be reckoned with in fantastic fiction.  It's exciting to hear (and read) an up-and-coming author's early works while they're being written.  I look forward to following along with his professional growth.  Thanks a lot PodCastle for finding and following him.

[eytanz]

The trope of "young prodigy unjustly treated" is one that I have a real personal aversion for. I think that when I was young myself, I used to really identify with those heros (not that I ever faced any gross injustice, but I found the prospect of one really compelling) - and then, after maybe the tenth time I read a story based on this premise, I started feeling that it's just a cheap trick. I'm older and wiser now, and I realize that this trope is no more or less cheap than many others - but still, because of my early reaction to it, I find it difficult to enjoy stories based around it.

So, I started listening to this a few weeks back, and I couldn't get past the first few minutes - I just can't bring myself to get to the tribunal. I've since tried continuing multiple times but I find I never want to. The world building feels compelling, and I'm probably being really unfair to the story, but I think I'm going to give this one a pass.

[Biscuit]

I thought there were some very clever subtexts in this story: only 3 women had ever become Dervishes; they were disgusted by and had a huge aversion to the colour red; they looked down on Layla for her emotions; her teacher told her she had to do "twice as much for half the recognition given a man". They must have had a REAL problem with menstruation.

Yes, it was a "self-fulfilling" prophecy. You tell a woman day in, day out "y u so mad?", she gonna get mad.

[Scattercat]

I KNEW it was a backstory for a character in a novel! 

/vindication

[eytanz]

I KNEW it was a backstory for a character in a novel! 

/vindication

I feel like there's a piece of information missing here. What novel?

[DKT]

I KNEW it was a backstory for a character in a novel! 

/vindication

I feel like there's a piece of information missing here. What novel?

I mentioned in the feedback segment for this story that Ahmed's got a new novel coming out called Throne of the Crescent Moon next year. It will feature this character (among others).

[eytanz]

Oh, I haven't heard that feedback session yet (am still a couple of episodes behind). Though I did check the Amazon description for Throne of the Crescent Moon and there's a list of a few characters there, and Layla is not included (unless she changed her name). Not that that means she's not in it, but she's apparently not a protagonist.

[DKT]

So...I decided to just go straight to the source and email Saladin Ahmed

He says Layla doesn't actually appear in the first book...but she'll be around in the second one. That said, it does take place in the same world and there's another Dervish in Throne of the Crescent Moon.

Hope that helps!

[Unblinking]

I liked the ending, at least my interpretation of it, which appeared to be different from most everyone else's.  To me Layla wasn't evil in the body of the story, and she didn't turn evil at the end.  She's not planning to be a brigand.  She's planning to be a vigilante.  She has devoted her life to God by training in the Lodge.  That portion of her life is now over, with her forceful ejection, and she is now disillusioned with the Lodge as a manifestation of God's will on Earth that it had previously appeared to be.  She has lost faith in the Lodge to be what it claims to be, but she has not lost faith in God.  According to the Lodge, she's now a heretic, but just because you're called a heretic doesn't mean you should give up your faith and make them correct.  To me, her faith is truly unshakeable, and she has chosen to fight on for God's causes in whatever way she can, no matter that she will damn herself further in the eyes of the world.  She believes God has given her a skill at swordplay and so she is going to use that sword to fight for God's justice.  And, really, isn't that an ultimate test of faith, whether or not you will continue on in your course no matter what anyone else thinks?

FWIW, I'm choosing to ignore the line about finding lots of red scarves, because that didn't make any sense to me, whether she was a brigand or vigilante.  Another red scarf would not have the same significance.  Bundles of red scarves even less so.

As for the story as a whole, I found the first half or so extremely slow, where they all had the same argument over and over again about the red scarf, and everyone kept saying the same arguments over and over again.  When it actually got to the judgment is where it got interesting for me.  Yes, the characters were perhaps black and white, but I don't really see that as a problem.  This is the story as told by Layla, and she sees it as black and white, hence justifying her choice to become a vigilante.

And I am curious how the judgment of souls would go when there was no treachery.  It was only resolved here through poison, but in ordinary circumstances, what is expected to happen?  Do the two men just sit there until one of them passes out from dehydration?

[justenjoying]

Again a religious zelottry that I have a general problem with. I loved the character and the way the story championed different interpretations on arcane scriptures. She is awsome and is truly a hero almost through out the story, but the aftermath is really what made me fall in love with this story. You have just fought for justice and lost everything for that cause, what do you do now? This story addressed that issue and ran with it. I loved this story.