Author Topic: PC162: Gods of the North  (Read 41107 times)

DKT

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Reply #50 on: June 28, 2011, 07:31:56 PM
It seems to me that an unknown submitting an Austen-esque novel today is akin to an unknown submitting a Conan-esque story today and in both cases I agree with Dave that modern day editors would be well within their purview to go ahead and reject both stories. However, in my mind Scattercat was raising a different interesting question: what of the other less long-lived stories of the 1930's?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Scattercat was suggesting a Howard-esque story. He was suggesting this exact same story, written today. (And the Austen-esque novel was literally Pride and Prejudice. Not even Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.)

It seems to me that an unknown submitting an Austen-esque novel today is akin to an unknown submitting a Conan-esque story today and in both cases I agree with Dave that modern day editors would be well within their purview to go ahead and reject both stories. However, in my mind Scattercat was raising a different interesting question: what of the other less long-lived stories of the 1930's?

I assume that there were other "sword and sorcery" writers that were contemporaries of Howard, and for whatever reason their work just hasn't enjoyed the longevity that the Conan stories did. I'm guessing that their stories carry many of the same themes and that without the name of Howard/Conan it would be harder to shrug off the more offensive aspects of the narrative. How would modern readers feel about these same transgressions if it was "Arthur the Berserker" by John Smith?  I honestly doubt that a dated (in the worldview/values represented) story like this would have been run on Podcastle had not the decades deemed it a "classic", and I doubt as well that a story like this would have been run if the anti-hero had been anyone other than Conan.

ETA: I meant to also ask, so therefore why do we give Conan a break, and should we in fact continue to do so?

Devoted135, I think that's an excellent question. I can't speak about those other S&S stories/writers that were Howard's contemporaries, because I'm not that familiar with them. If you, or anyone else has any suggestions for us to check out, please let us know. I'd love to read more, especially if it's in Public Domain.

In the past, we've run more obscure PD stuff...William Hope Hodgson and Israel Zangwill. And we may do more of that. But, we decided to run Howard this time.

We may run more S&S - in fact, we're actively trying to get some more contemporary stuff. But the reason we ran a Robert E. Howard Conan story is because...well, it's a Robert E. Howard Conan story. And that comes with all the good stuff and all the baggage that it does. And I think the baggage is worth talking about.

One of the good things is - it's in Public Domain. Not all Conan stories are. A lot of them aren't. Some of the more recent S&S stuff from the 60s, etc. is definitely not.

That said, we're not giving Howard a break, exactly. That Solomon Kane story I mentioned upthread? It is PD, and there's not a snowball's chance in hell you'll ever hear it here at PodCastle as long as Anna and I are editing. (Note: I'm not saying that about all Solomon Kane stories...just that particular one.)

We've got a story coming out next week that's a wicked, mean epic fantasy and I joked in the intro that it made this Conan story seem tame. (I still think it does.) It's not exactly S&S, but it takes into account a lot of the baggage these kinds of stories have, I think. I wish I had waited to record that intro until after all this discussion - it's been really fascinating and caused me to think and reflect even more. So thanks again!  :)



eytanz

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Reply #51 on: June 28, 2011, 07:37:13 PM
ETA: I meant to also ask, so therefore why do we give Conan a break, and should we in fact continue to do so?

Because it was historically influential. And because we shouldn't hide from our history, even when it is unpleasant. In order for us to continue advancing, we need to know where we came from relative to where we are now. And that means we should be exposed to the works that were important in getting us here, even if we don't approve of them.

There is something wrong when the story about rape, masculinity, and sexism is portrayed in a positive light.  Rape and sexism are not positive qualities, no matter what age, genre, time, or place. This is something my entire being rejects, even if it is set in a hyper-real fantastic backdrop.

Something wrong? Absolutely. But the fact that there's something wrong with a story shouldn't amount to complete rejection (before I proceed, let me note that I'm not responding to your individual reaction - if you feel like *your* only valid response is total rejection, then you need to act on your feeling. I'm arguing about the general case). Let me give another example that perhaps affects me more personally. I am Jewish. I am the grandson of Holocaust survivors, and the son of a historian specialising in twentieth century Jewish history. I grew up hearing about the horrors of antisemitism, and when I was old enough to travel on my own in Europe, I had two seperate occasions where antisemitic tirades were directed at me. And yet, I can appreciate The Merchant of Venice as a piece of art, even though its characterisations and resolution are repugnant to me. There's a lot wrong with that play, but that doesn't mean that what's good about it also doesn't exist. And the same holds for positive portrayals of sexism, or any other form of racism - they're wrong, yes, but we can't allow the wrong to dominate our conversation.

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This would be completely different if Conan was chasing a man down to rape him, or if Conan himself were being chased by a man, or if Conan were chasing a child.  Forcing yourself on another being is wrong no matter the situation or circumstance.

Wait, what? Completely different how?



DKT

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Reply #52 on: June 28, 2011, 07:40:26 PM
There is something wrong when the story about rape, masculinity, and sexism is portrayed in a positive light.  Rape and sexism are not positive qualities, no matter what age, genre, time, or place. This is something my entire being rejects, even if it is set in a hyper-real fantastic backdrop.

See, this is where we're reading/hearing different stories. I don't think it's meant to be a positive portrayal of any of those things. My entire being rejects all that as well.


ElectricPaladin

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Reply #53 on: June 28, 2011, 07:50:12 PM
Yes, you're right, in the grand scheme of things this is only a compilation of words that make a story written onto pages. So was Mein Kampf. And The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And Quotations from Chairman Mao. Get my point? At some point those stopped being words on a page and actually had some effect in the real world.

Of course if I were to walk in on people acting out scenes for their own sexual pleasure, of course I would think it was rape. Most people would. But that isn't the issue here.  Conan and Atali aren't playing out some scene they both agreed on.  There is real fear and real danger.

Again, there is fictional fear and fictional danger. Just like there is fictional fear and fictional danger in every other piece of adventure fiction you will ever read. And, for that matter, fictional fear and fictional danger in the bedroom of a couple of consenting adults playing out a rape scene.

That's also the difference between The Gods of the North and things like Mein Kampf, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and Quotations from Chairman Mao. Gods of the North is fiction. These other things are not (or, in the case of The Protocols, were fiction but did not present themselves as such). They are real. If Gods of the North had actually happened or been presented with unappealingly realistic detail, I would have had a different reaction to it.

I'm going to turn this around on you: do you really want to read in a world where bad things don't happen in fiction? Where every morally ambiguous character invariably gets his or her comeuppance? Do you want every novel to be a bland morality play in which the bad guys can be distinguished by their black hats and greased mustaches? It seems to me from your comments that you consider fictitious atrocities the rough moral equivalent of real life atrocities - how on earth did you read Ender's Game, The Lord of the Rings, or anything else with any kick? How can you read Cormack McCarthy's The Road? Kidnapped by Robert Louis Stevenson contains scenes of, well, kidnapping, not to mention child abuse, theft, and murder - and I'm pretty sure rape is alluded to. Fiction contains gross, horrible, terrifying stuff - that's what makes it exciting. How on earth do you ever read anything?

As for myself, fiction is the magic spice that makes these things readable. I don't actually want to be forced to live in a family compound full of murderous relations who want to kill me for the right to lead a family of heartless sociopaths, while dealing with the semi-wanted affections of a deity of death and madness. In fiction, though, I'd read the shit out of that. In fact, I did read the shit out of that; it's called N. K. Jemisin's The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, and it was really good.

And can you please clarify how this ISN'T rape?

Because. It's. Fiction.

Honestly, if you've never been in that position of having someone on top of you and forcing themselves upon you, you don't know the fear and emotions that go with that.

So what?

This would be completely different if Conan was chasing a man down to rape him, or if Conan himself were being chased by a man, or if Conan were chasing a child.  Forcing yourself on another being is wrong no matter the situation or circumstance.

I'm going to mimic the posters who scooped me and ask: how is it different and what does it matter?

There is something wrong when the story about rape, masculinity, and sexism is portrayed in a positive light.  Rape and sexism are not positive qualities, no matter what age, genre, time, or place. This is something my entire being rejects, even if it is set in a hyper-real fantastic backdrop.

I suppose that's where you and I differ: in my mind, stories are never wrong. They simply are. They educate, entertain, enlighten, and challenge. Even a bad story - or a story about bad things, or a story whose moral perspective you disagree with or even find abhorrent - can cause you to grow. Actions can be right, wrong or a little of both; stories are eternal, transcendent, and divine. They are beyond good and evil. They simply are. The point is not what the story says, it is what you see in the mirror of story and how it changes you.

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Devoted135

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Reply #54 on: June 28, 2011, 08:02:12 PM
ETA: I meant to also ask, so therefore why do we give Conan a break, and should we in fact continue to do so?

Because it was historically influential. And because we shouldn't hide from our history, even when it is unpleasant. In order for us to continue advancing, we need to know where we came from relative to where we are now. And that means we should be exposed to the works that were important in getting us here, even if we don't approve of them.

You make a good point, and I definitely agree with you on that one. In addition to the example of Shakespeare, I would add The Scarlet Pimpernel, which is a classic book that uses the anti-semitic feelings of 18th century France as a major plotpoint. I think the difference here is I don't see that particular argument being made upthread. Rather, the stance has been that "Conan will be Conan" and we shouldn't judge him according to today's standards, which I disagree with. Much like we do with Shakespeare, I think we can stop giving him a break without writing him out of the history of fantasy.



This would be completely different if Conan was chasing a man down to rape him, or if Conan himself were being chased by a man, or if Conan were chasing a child.  Forcing yourself on another being is wrong no matter the situation or circumstance.

Wait, what? Completely different how?


From the context of the post, I'm assuming Calculating... meant "This would not be any different" or something along those lines.



Devoted135

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Reply #55 on: June 28, 2011, 08:14:22 PM
It seems to me that an unknown submitting an Austen-esque novel today is akin to an unknown submitting a Conan-esque story today and in both cases I agree with Dave that modern day editors would be well within their purview to go ahead and reject both stories. However, in my mind Scattercat was raising a different interesting question: what of the other less long-lived stories of the 1930's?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Scattercat was suggesting a Howard-esque story. He was suggesting this exact same story, written today. (And the Austen-esque novel was literally Pride and Prejudice. Not even Pride and Prejudice and Zombies.)

Whoops, thanks. Okay, then I'll ask the question :D


Devoted135, I think that's an excellent question. I can't speak about those other S&S stories/writers that were Howard's contemporaries, because I'm not that familiar with them. If you, or anyone else has any suggestions for us to check out, please let us know. I'd love to read more, especially if it's in Public Domain.

I did a quick search, but it didn't yield very much. Sadly my knowledge of classic sf/f is very much lacking by the standards of this forum.


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We may run more S&S - in fact, we're actively trying to get some more contemporary stuff. But the reason we ran a Robert E. Howard Conan story is because...well, it's a Robert E. Howard Conan story. And that comes with all the good stuff and all the baggage that it does. And I think the baggage is worth talking about.

For sure, it's for threads like these that I'm glad that the culture of positive discussion has been so successfully nurtured here!

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We've got a story coming out next week that's a wicked, mean epic fantasy and I joked in the intro that it made this Conan story seem tame. (I still think it does.) It's not exactly S&S, but it takes into account a lot of the baggage these kinds of stories have, I think. I wish I had waited to record that intro until after all this discussion - it's been really fascinating and caused me to think and reflect even more. So thanks again!  :)

Okay, now I'm both excited and nervous! Can't wait to hear what you guys have cooked up! :)



danooli

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Reply #56 on: June 28, 2011, 09:21:47 PM
 Conan and Atali aren't playing out some scene they both agreed on.  There is real fear and real danger.
And can you please clarify how this ISN'T rape?  Honestly, if you've never been in that position of having someone on top of you and forcing themselves upon you, you don't know the fear and emotions that go with that. That is a form of rape, Atali was just lucky enough to get away before anything truly bad happened.  

Calculating, I WAS raped.  It'll be almost 20 years this summer.  I know what it feels like, so please be careful what you say.

I'd like to ask you to look at the story in just one other way.  Please.  I'd like you to look at Conan who is the one who really is playing out a scene he didn't agree upon.  Atali is the one who bewitches Conan.  She is the character in the story who sets the ball in motion.  He is the one who doesn't have control over the situation due to the power of a Demi-Goddess.  I know what it's like to not be in control of what is happening to you. Can you see that if you're damning Conan, you're sort of blaming the victim?

And, this was a work of fiction.  The "words on paper" you mention above are manifestos.  Completely different.



Sgarre1

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Reply #57 on: June 28, 2011, 10:01:30 PM
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Because it was historically influential. And because we shouldn't hide from our history, even when it is unpleasant. In order for us to continue advancing, we need to know where we came from relative to where we are now. And that means we should be exposed to the works that were important in getting us here, even if we don't approve of them.

Here, here.  Couldn't have said it better myself (and probably would have taken quadruple the words!)



ElectricPaladin

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Reply #58 on: June 28, 2011, 11:24:49 PM
 Conan and Atali aren't playing out some scene they both agreed on.  There is real fear and real danger.
And can you please clarify how this ISN'T rape?  Honestly, if you've never been in that position of having someone on top of you and forcing themselves upon you, you don't know the fear and emotions that go with that. That is a form of rape, Atali was just lucky enough to get away before anything truly bad happened.  

Calculating, I WAS raped.  It'll be almost 20 years this summer.  I know what it feels like, so please be careful what you say.

I'd like to ask you to look at the story in just one other way.  Please.  I'd like you to look at Conan who is the one who really is playing out a scene he didn't agree upon.  Atali is the one who bewitches Conan.  She is the character in the story who sets the ball in motion.  He is the one who doesn't have control over the situation due to the power of a Demi-Goddess.  I know what it's like to not be in control of what is happening to you. Can you see that if you're damning Conan, you're sort of blaming the victim?

And, this was a work of fiction.  The "words on paper" you mention above are manifestos.  Completely different.

Danooli, you are now my hero. That is a brilliant set of observations.

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deflective

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Reply #59 on: June 28, 2011, 11:50:56 PM
For me personally, wasn't enough character development of Conan to please me. Course that might be the nature of the beast. Is there anything to Conan besides "GRRR ARRRGH"? I donno. :) I personally like my characters with more character, though.

this is my impression as well.  i was reminded of a superman plot.
something challenges the hero, conflict occurs, the hero tries hard and wins.

it doesn't much matter what happens, if the opposition is stronger then the hero just needs to try harder.



Spindaddy

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Reply #60 on: June 29, 2011, 02:31:38 AM
Just for clarity's sake... so it would have been ok if Conan had been led to his death by the naked evil godess? Or if the Dark god of the mountain popped out and treated Conan to a forced backdoor entry? Then it's ok? Why is it ok for the Dark evil goddess who has been tormenting the dying for centuries to get off scot-free and not reap a little bit of what she's been sowing? She's not an innocent here. She's there in that field to deliberately torment the dying and to flaunt her beautiful naked body, to lure the bewitched to her brothers who kill and rip out the hearts for sacrificial offerings to a dark god. I'm sorry, but looks like a little bit of dark justice.

The scene was not "One day Atali was minding her own business enjoying a fine winters walk in her favorite transparent veil when she happened upon a battlefield. After offering the lone survivor some first aid and a bit of her coffee, she suddenly noticed a wild hunger in his eyes. From the way he was staring at her hips and breasts, she could tell no good was on his mind. The stranger began to speak, telling her how beautiful she was and though she tried to deny his advances, he would not be put off. Fearing for her life, she ran to her brothers for help, but the huge hulking man slew her poor kin. Onward she dashed, but eventually the man-beast leapt upon her. In a last desperate act, she tore free from the only stitch of clothing she wore and called out to her father for help. Her Father swooped out of the sky, gathered her to his bosum and took the poor dear home."

That's not what happened.

At this point, I wish that Howard would have written "Once Conan caught up to her, he struck her coldly cruel evil head from her naked shoulders and then went back to town for some ale and consenting wenches. The End."

Look, I've read all of the Conan stories and they are completely ridiculous with all of the stupid amazing feats that Conan pulls off--at one point he is crucified for 3 days and after day 2, he begins to despair because he can't pull his own hands off the spikes to save himself. Seriously? While hanging out crucified he bites the head off a buzzard too. He gets off the cross when this bandit lord cuts the cross down and rips the nails out. Really? I'm supposed to believe that? What was Howard smoking? The stories are laughable, horrendously filled with references to mighty musclebound apemen, bodacious scantily clad babes, and grim seedy world. The stories themselves are forced transparent plotlines and nothing even remotely cerebral--you can guess exactly what is going to happen. Yet, much like all the silly and cheesy cartoons I watched while growing up, by CROM! I have a soft spot in my heart for Conan and his silliness--and just b/c i do like Conan, it doesn't make me a rapist anymore than violent video games make me a killer or horror movies will turn me into a pyschopath. I'm sorry, I like my heavy metal music and no preacher can convince me I'm a spawn of satan.

Honestly I find this discussion about as annoying as all of the men who are furious over the simpsons, family guy, and all the other evening sitcoms portray men as fat, stupid pigs incapable of any sort of human decency or rational thought without being led by the nose.

I'm not evil. I'm corporate.


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Reply #61 on: June 29, 2011, 03:00:55 AM
ETA: I meant to also ask, so therefore why do we give Conan a break, and should we in fact continue to do so?

Because it was historically influential. And because we shouldn't hide from our history, even when it is unpleasant. In order for us to continue advancing, we need to know where we came from relative to where we are now. And that means we should be exposed to the works that were important in getting us here, even if we don't approve of them.

There is a difference between remembering your roots and celebrating/defending them.  This is a story about a pretty horrible pair of people.  Excusing it by saying, "Well, standards of the time, hem hem, Conan is just so larger-than-life, hem hem," is what I don't care for.  I'm okay with people printing a Howard story and saying, "You know, this really hasn't aged well.  In fact, it's kind of offensive."  I'm less okay with printing a Howard story and going, "Yeaaaaaah, Conan!" and not examining what it means that this was a part of the foundation of the genre, no less than Tolkien's carefully manicured Manichean struggle. 

It's similar to how the less savory aspects of Lovecraft have to be addressed, because holy crap was that dude racist, and not in a "everyone was racist then" kind of way, but in a "Dude was freaking terrified of anything that came from outside of about a ten-mile square radius around Providence."  You can't run some of Lovecraft's stories ("Horror at Red Hook" springs to mind, for example) and not say, "This story is basically just racist and doesn't have much else to recommend it.  It's a part of his work, but it's not why he is remembered."  Robert E. Howard's work, overall, displays a fair amount of immature power fantasy, and a part of that is the way Conan always gets what he wants. 

I think the people who point out that Atali lured Conan on are missing the point a bit.  That is, yes, within the world of this story, that's what happened.  However, in the real world, rape victims STILL have to overcome this massive subconscious (if I'm being generous) belief that people who are raped somehow did something to "deserve" it, or at least made themselves vulnerable in some way.  If the defense can prove that the rape victim had been drinking, for instance, that somehow serves as evidence to exonerate the rapist.  Even if they bring up how many other sexual partners the rape victim has had in the past, that can help get the attacker a lesser sentence.  This is how it works in the real world, and so I see this story and all I can hear is that chorus of judgmental voices saying, "She was asking for it.  She led him on.  She's just a slut who didn't get away with it this time." 

That is why this story is troubling.  Not because Conan was necessarily acting inappropriately in context (He was bewitched, after all) but because the story by necessity exists in conjunction with reality.  It reflects and influences behavior and attitudes, simply by existing.  Will someone read this story and go out to rape someone?  No; that's ridiculous.  Does this story add one more pebble to the press, one more straw to the load, one more drop in the flood?  I think it does, and for that reason I dislike it and its simplistic portrayal of the interactions between its godlike avatars, both masculine and feminine.



Calculating...

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Reply #62 on: June 29, 2011, 03:31:55 AM
There is something wrong when the story about rape, masculinity, and sexism is portrayed in a positive light.  Rape and sexism are not positive qualities, no matter what age, genre, time, or place. This is something my entire being rejects, even if it is set in a hyper-real fantastic backdrop.
Something wrong? Absolutely. But the fact that there's something wrong with a story shouldn't amount to complete rejection (before I proceed, let me note that I'm not responding to your individual reaction - if you feel like *your* only valid response is total rejection, then you need to act on your feeling. I'm arguing about the general case). Let me give another example that perhaps affects me more personally. I am Jewish. I am the grandson of Holocaust survivors, and the son of a historian specializing in twentieth century Jewish history. I grew up hearing about the horrors of antisemitism, and when I was old enough to travel on my own in Europe, I had two separate occasions where antisemitic tirades were directed at me. And yet, I can appreciate The Merchant of Venice as a piece of art, even though its characterizations and resolution are repugnant to me. There's a lot wrong with that play, but that doesn't mean that what's good about it also doesn't exist. And the same holds for positive portrayals of sexism, or any other form of racism - they're wrong, yes, but we can't allow the wrong to dominate our conversation.
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This would be completely different if Conan was chasing a man down to rape him, or if Conan himself were being chased by a man, or if Conan were chasing a child.  Forcing yourself on another being is wrong no matter the situation or circumstance.
Wait, what? Completely different how?

I meant more the responses of posters would be completely different, which like I have been saying, really are the most disturbing part of this whole thing for me.

And, shalom. I'm also Jewish (and lived through and abusive ex in which sex was not always consensual, relevant later), I couldn't go certain places when I was in Europe two years ago, specifically because of what my great grandparents and grandparents told me. Same reasons why I cannot go certain places in New Orleans (besides safety issues) because I am not good with dealing with the reality of the pain and horror. Part of the reason why I turn to fiction.  I am able to read and appreciate plays like Merchant of Venice because it at least offers a story outside of antisemitism, which it seems like you can appreciate it in a similar way.  Gods of the North doesn't offer much beyond Conan's insatiable lust, so I personally cannot get much out of the story. Like I have said repeatedly, the main issue I am having is the response of posters on this thread who seem to not acknowledge that this story is about rape, or out right cheering for Conan.  I thought people had evolved over the years.

Yes, you're right, in the grand scheme of things this is only a compilation of words that make a story written onto pages. So was Mein Kampf. And The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And Quotations from Chairman Mao. Get my point? At some point those stopped being words on a page and actually had some effect in the real world.
Of course if I were to walk in on people acting out scenes for their own sexual pleasure, of course I would think it was rape. Most people would. But that isn't the issue here.  Conan and Atali aren't playing out some scene they both agreed on.  There is real fear and real danger.

Again, there is fictional fear and fictional danger. Just like there is fictional fear and fictional danger in every other piece of adventure fiction you will ever read. And, for that matter, fictional fear and fictional danger in the bedroom of a couple of consenting adults playing out a rape scene.

We're on different pages here. I KNOW IT'S FICTION! There. Now in the FICTIONAL story the FICTIONAL character Atali feels real fear within the confines of a FICTIONAL STORY. Are we still clear? I get that the actual evil goddess Atali never existed and neither did Conan. I am talking about real fear felt by a FICTIONAL character in a FICTIONAL story. If I have confused or lost you at any point, please let me know and I will try my hardest to make sure you understand what I am trying to say.

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That's also the difference between The Gods of the North and things like Mein Kampf, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and Quotations from Chairman Mao. Gods of the North is fiction. These other things are not (or, in the case of The Protocols, were fiction but did not present themselves as such). They are real. If Gods of the North had actually happened or been presented with unappealingly realistic detail, I would have had a different reaction to it.

I don't see much difference between them. Take evil act A, make it appear okay, maybe even cool, and then present it in an interesting way so as to get other to understand, accept, and maybe even adopt my way of thinking. I cannot remember the name of that awful science fiction book, but it was all about female slaves and it started a real cult in England I think. Or how about all the Trekkies running around? Back in the 80s there was that lady who went to jury duty in a Star Fleet uniform because as a crew member on a ship it was her duty to wear her uniform in official capacities. Or how about after Tolkien came out with Return of the King, lots of graffiti started popping up saying "Frodo lives".  Fiction affects our lives, how we think, how we feel, how we view the world.

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I'm going to turn this around on you: do you really want to read in a world where bad things don't happen in fiction? Where every morally ambiguous character invariably gets his or her comeuppance? Do you want every novel to be a bland morality play in which the bad guys can be distinguished by their black hats and greased mustaches? It seems to me from your comments that you consider fictitious atrocities the rough moral equivalent of real life atrocities - how on earth did you read Ender's Game, The Lord of the Rings, or anything else with any kick? How can you read Cormack McCarthy's The Road? Kidnapped by Robert Louis Stevenson contains scenes of, well, kidnapping, not to mention child abuse, theft, and murder - and I'm pretty sure rape is alluded to. Fiction contains gross, horrible, terrifying stuff - that's what makes it exciting. How on earth do you ever read anything?

Fair enough. And no. But at least I recognize when I'm cheering for a morally ambiguous character.  I know Han shot first, but I still love him.  I know Ender killed an entire species, but I still love him.  Like I have said ad nauseum at this point, my main problem has been how people reacted to this story.  I think pretty much anyone who has spent more than 30 seconds reading this thread can tell I really did not enjoy this story. That much is obvious and not the issue for me.  I am more uncomfortable with how people have responded to this story, professing their love for Conan, making excuses for his behavior so that he still remains a "good guy" in their minds, trying to pretend there is ANYTHING else to this story.

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As for myself, fiction is the magic spice that makes these things readable. I don't actually want to be forced to live in a family compound full of murderous relations who want to kill me for the right to lead a family of heartless sociopaths, while dealing with the semi-wanted affections of a deity of death and madness. In fiction, though, I'd read the shit out of that. In fact, I did read the shit out of that; it's called N. K. Jemisin's The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, and it was really good.

I haven't read it so I cannot speak to the story, but I'm assuming there was something more to the story that attracted you to it? Because if not you just saved be the time of reading it.  A story of endless pain with no real resolution or story or personal development is not enjoyable.  Or I guess for certain people that is, but not by the majority of people.

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And can you please clarify how this ISN'T rape?
Because. It's. Fiction.

Got the fiction part. That was never really a question in my mind. You still didn't answer my question.

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Honestly, if you've never been in that position of having someone on top of you and forcing themselves upon you, you don't know the fear and emotions that go with that.
So what?

So obviously you have no idea what is like and I guess you're really not the best person to determine what is or is not rape. Or if a person's feelings (yes, even if it is a FICTIONAL character, in a FICTIONAL story, I'm referring to the feelings of the character within the confines of the FICTIONAL story) are valid.  There is a HUGE difference between fictional fear in sexual role play, and real fear, even if it is expressed in a fictional story. That is like saying because Ender is in a fictional story, the sorrow and remorse he felt was also fictional.  Still on the same page?

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There is something wrong when the story about rape, masculinity, and sexism is portrayed in a positive light.  Rape and sexism are not positive qualities, no matter what age, genre, time, or place. This is something my entire being rejects, even if it is set in a hyper-real fantastic backdrop.
I suppose that's where you and I differ: in my mind, stories are never wrong. They simply are. They educate, entertain, enlighten, and challenge. Even a bad story - or a story about bad things, or a story whose moral perspective you disagree with or even find abhorrent - can cause you to grow. Actions can be right, wrong or a little of both; stories are eternal, transcendent, and divine. They are beyond good and evil. They simply are. The point is not what the story says, it is what you see in the mirror of story and how it changes you.

I was going to go on a whole thing about this, but really that is a matter of opinion and I can respect yours, I hope you can extend me the same courtesy.

 Conan and Atali aren't playing out some scene they both agreed on.  There is real fear and real danger.
And can you please clarify how this ISN'T rape?  Honestly, if you've never been in that position of having someone on top of you and forcing themselves upon you, you don't know the fear and emotions that go with that. That is a form of rape, Atali was just lucky enough to get away before anything truly bad happened.  

Calculating, I WAS raped.  It'll be almost 20 years this summer.  I know what it feels like, so please be careful what you say.

I'd like to ask you to look at the story in just one other way.  Please.  I'd like you to look at Conan who is the one who really is playing out a scene he didn't agree upon.  Atali is the one who bewitches Conan.  She is the character in the story who sets the ball in motion.  He is the one who doesn't have control over the situation due to the power of a Demi-Goddess.  I know what it's like to not be in control of what is happening to you. Can you see that if you're damning Conan, you're sort of blaming the victim?

And, this was a work of fiction.  The "words on paper" you mention above are manifestos.  Completely different.

danooli, no offense meant, but the only thing that can reconcile what you posted in my mind is that you've had more distance from the event and have actually had time to come to accept and heal more than I have. I know me and my story, and I know nothing about you and your story, and I in no way mean offense or disrespect, but you're still making excuses for Conan! That is like saying since my ex was drunk and I made the mistake of wearing a shirt that was too revealing, its not really his fault for what he did. That is such bullshit and crap I don't even have a swear appropriate for it. I cannot keep typing or I will say something regrettable and awful.

I don't know who you are or where you came from, but from now on you'll do as I tell you, okay?


Talia

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Reply #63 on: June 29, 2011, 03:35:05 AM
Easy there, everyone. Everyone's got different reactions and responses to things. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.



Calculating...

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Reply #64 on: June 29, 2011, 03:44:18 AM
And my rant is not done yet.

Just for clarity's sake... so it would have been ok if Conan had been led to his death by the naked evil godess? Or if the Dark god of the mountain popped out and treated Conan to a forced backdoor entry? Then it's ok? Why is it ok for the Dark evil goddess who has been tormenting the dying for centuries to get off scot-free and not reap a little bit of what she's been sowing? She's not an innocent here. She's there in that field to deliberately torment the dying and to flaunt her beautiful naked body, to lure the bewitched to her brothers who kill and rip out the hearts for sacrificial offerings to a dark god. I'm sorry, but looks like a little bit of dark justice.

The scene was not "One day Atali was minding her own business enjoying a fine winters walk in her favorite transparent veil when she happened upon a battlefield. After offering the lone survivor some first aid and a bit of her coffee, she suddenly noticed a wild hunger in his eyes. From the way he was staring at her hips and breasts, she could tell no good was on his mind. The stranger began to speak, telling her how beautiful she was and though she tried to deny his advances, he would not be put off. Fearing for her life, she ran to her brothers for help, but the huge hulking man slew her poor kin. Onward she dashed, but eventually the man-beast leapt upon her. In a last desperate act, she tore free from the only stitch of clothing she wore and called out to her father for help. Her Father swooped out of the sky, gathered her to his bosom and took the poor dear home."

That's not what happened.

At this point, I wish that Howard would have written "Once Conan caught up to her, he struck her coldly cruel evil head from her naked shoulders and then went back to town for some ale and consenting wenches. The End."

Look, I've read all of the Conan stories and they are completely ridiculous with all of the stupid amazing feats that Conan pulls off--at one point he is crucified for 3 days and after day 2, he begins to despair because he can't pull his own hands off the spikes to save himself. Seriously? While hanging out crucified he bites the head off a buzzard too. He gets off the cross when this bandit lord cuts the cross down and rips the nails out. Really? I'm supposed to believe that? What was Howard smoking? The stories are laughable, horrendously filled with references to mighty musclebound apemen, bodacious scantily clad babes, and grim seedy world. The stories themselves are forced transparent plotlines and nothing even remotely cerebral--you can guess exactly what is going to happen. Yet, much like all the silly and cheesy cartoons I watched while growing up, by CROM! I have a soft spot in my heart for Conan and his silliness--and just b/c i do like Conan, it doesn't make me a rapist anymore than violent video games make me a killer or horror movies will turn me into a pyschopath. I'm sorry, I like my heavy metal music and no preacher can convince me I'm a spawn of satan.

Honestly I find this discussion about as annoying as all of the men who are furious over the simpsons, family guy, and all the other evening sitcoms portray men as fat, stupid pigs incapable of any sort of human decency or rational thought without being led by the nose.

So its better that men are led by their groin and lust? Seriously? And since women have bad traits (admittedly leading men to their deaths and tormenting the dying is REALLY bad) justice is for them to be raped? And since you have admitted you're a Conan fan, did you ever have any real doubt that he couldn't somehow win?  You mentioned some of his previous rather unbelievable feats, and as a non-Conan fan even I knew two snow monsters were really no match for Conan. So not only does he kill the monsters, which are this evil goddess's brothers (which if we're talking about dark justice wouldn't that be enough?) she also deserves to be raped? I think I clarified my somewhat misleading comment about if the situation were different or reversed, but just in case: People would be reacting differently to this story if the situation with Conan were reversed or if it involved a different character than an evil temptress goddess.

I don't know who you are or where you came from, but from now on you'll do as I tell you, okay?


Calculating...

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Reply #65 on: June 29, 2011, 03:45:01 AM
Easy there, everyone. Everyone's got different reactions and responses to things. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Sorry, trying to be as nice as possible.

I don't know who you are or where you came from, but from now on you'll do as I tell you, okay?


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Reply #66 on: June 29, 2011, 05:44:57 AM
I meant more the responses of posters would be completely different, which like I have been saying, really are the most disturbing part of this whole thing for me.

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Like I have said repeatedly, the main issue I am having is the response of posters on this thread who seem to not acknowledge that this story is about rape, or out right cheering for Conan.  I thought people had evolved over the years.

Let me turn what you said to Danooli back at you - I don't know much about you and your story. I certainly don't share it; indeed, I'm painfully aware that as a man, rape is something I really never had to worry about in the same way women in our culture do. I don't know if I'm one of the posters you are complaining about. But I do know that part of what every reader/listener gets from a story is what they bring to it. And, for me, my reading of the story is along the lines of DKT's - I certainly think it is about rape, but I also think it is supposed to be representing a *negative* portrayal of rape, not a positive one. I just think it does so in a way that is unfortunate for modern sensibilities. When I say "this is a historical approach", I'm not saying "rape used to be ok", I'm saying "authors didn't know how to properly condemn rape".

This is perhaps a subtle distinction, one that means little to someone who has had a personal experience with the subject. That's always a risk. I remember many years ago my father took me to see the play "Wit" in New York. For me, it was a touching meditation about a cancer patient coming to death with her mortality. For my father, who witnessed his own father die a slow death from cancer firsthand, it was crass and painful. His pain was a stronger reaction than mine, but it did not invalidate mine.

So, really, what I think I'm doing is asking you for your forgiveness on behalf of myself and other posters here - not for our opinion on the story, but for the fact that we're not reading the same story you are. We cannot, because to do so we need to read it through your eyes. And through my eyes, this is not a story that is positive about rape - and because of that, my reaction is different. Certainly, I do not excuse anyone who thinks this *is* a positive portrayal of rape and at the same time is happy with that. But, re-reading the thread, I don't see much of that.

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I'd like to ask you to look at the story in just one other way.  Please.  I'd like you to look at Conan who is the one who really is playing out a scene he didn't agree upon.  Atali is the one who bewitches Conan.  She is the character in the story who sets the ball in motion.  He is the one who doesn't have control over the situation due to the power of a Demi-Goddess.  I know what it's like to not be in control of what is happening to you. Can you see that if you're damning Conan, you're sort of blaming the victim?

danooli, no offense meant, but the only thing that can reconcile what you posted in my mind is that you've had more distance from the event and have actually had time to come to accept and heal more than I have. I know me and my story, and I know nothing about you and your story, and I in no way mean offense or disrespect, but you're still making excuses for Conan! That is like saying since my ex was drunk and I made the mistake of wearing a shirt that was too revealing, its not really his fault for what he did. That is such bullshit and crap I don't even have a swear appropriate for it. I cannot keep typing or I will say something regrettable and awful.

I think the parallel that Danooli is proposing is more that Conan was slipped a powerful drug or something. Being drunk is never an excuse for many reasons, but one of them is that decision making while being drunk may be impaired, but the decision to *get* drunk was a willing one, and therefore does not absolve of responsibility. It's also true that being drunk does not give you new desires, only makes you act on ones you might know better otherwise.

In this story, I think it's quite explicit that Conan did not choose to come under the influence, and, perhaps more importantly, the sorcery is making him do things that not only he would otherwise know better than do, but things that he would otherwise have no desire to do.

Is this making excuses for Conan or is it genuinely the case that Conan as a victim? That, as I point out above, may be different for different readers. The difference between reality and fiction is partially this - the facts of what happened to any real woman are facts. But a fictional story does not contain facts, only words. People may map them onto different sets of events. What I think Danooli is asking you, and what I'm asking you too, is to realize that when some readers are more forgiving of Conan, for those readers, Conan is genuinely in a different story than the one you were exposed to. You've made the story you've heard clear enough here that I can tell you with no equivocation that there's no excusing Conan's behaviour in that story. But that story partially came from you, and none of us but you have gotten it in the same way.



Swamp

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Reply #67 on: June 29, 2011, 07:19:39 AM
Taking rape out of the equation for a minute, I have been trying to think of a character in our times that represents Conan. 
The first person I thought of was Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry.  He is not a nice guy and doesn't always make the morally right decision, but we like him because he takes out the bad guys, though he is not too far away from being one himself.

Another example of this would be Wolverine.  Yes, he is more of a hero than Dirty Harry, but he can also be a mean SOB.  And if Wolvie goes beserker on ya, he don't care much who gets cut down, similar to Conan.  (oh great now somebody will go write a Wolverine vs. Conan fanfic)  But we like Wolverine.  He is an anti-hero.

I'm sure there are other examples.

---

Regarding Conan and the attempted rape in this story, I would be interested if there are any other examples in the Conan cannon of him letting his lust take him so close to the act.  I'm not sure.  I don't remember any, but I mostly just read my friend's comics and maybe one collection of stories.  I mostly remember him fighting monsters and corrupt idolatrous priests.

---

I do agree that the portrayal of rape in a fictional story can lead to wrong impressions, especially to a younger mind.  Going back to Clint Eastwood, I remember seeing the western High Plains Drifter when I was younger and there is a scene where he comes walking into town and this woman comes up to him, asking him a bunch of questions, and isn't very nice about it.  He grabs her, takes her to a barn , rapes her, and then goes to get a bath and a shave.  The town doesn't do anything about it, even when she pleads for them to.  They just play it off for laughs.  I took cues from this that that was OK.  "That's what she gets for being so annoying.  Clint Eastwood is cool because he was so brazen about it."  Reflecting on that later in life, I found it appalling and now refuse to watch that movie.

That said, I did not see the same level of offense in this story.  Nobody was really playing it for laughs, like "Oh that Conan, he's just a rapist, that's the way is is, but he's cool."  I didn't get that feeling from this story or from the posters  At least for myself, I can say that my enjoyment of this story tapped into my overall experience with the character of Conan.

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Scattercat

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Reply #68 on: June 29, 2011, 08:16:55 AM
The story pretty much fails to take a stance on the rape thing.  Like, it happens, but it happens without commentary or any indication one way or the other.  That gives it a pretty flat affect, onto which one can project what one wishes.  I don't think that's the best way to portray something like rape, because no one in the world is neutral on rape.  It's just not something you can feel nothing in particular about.  The lack of condemnation and the pretty clear portrayal of the woman as the instigator and cause of the rape are the sources of my own qualms about the story.

However, one point Calculating... made bears outlining again; if you look at a lot of the responses on the first few pages, and in particular the responses to the (in some cases perhaps overly harsh) criticism of the story, a lot of people DID argue, "Oh, that's just Conan," and laughed it off.  I put it to (generic) you that that is, in fact, a problematic reaction.  The story says,  "Take Conan, the unstoppable force, and give him a magic lust compulsion, which then backfires on the evil woman who attempted to trap him via lust."  That's a pretty horrific scenario.  But no one in the story - least of all Conan - feels any remorse about what he (almost) did, and back here in the real world, the audience rushes to apologize and explain it away... that feels pretty icky to me.



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Reply #69 on: June 29, 2011, 08:46:22 AM
However, one point Calculating... made bears outlining again; if you look at a lot of the responses on the first few pages, and in particular the responses to the (in some cases perhaps overly harsh) criticism of the story, a lot of people DID argue, "Oh, that's just Conan," and laughed it off.  I put it to (generic) you that that is, in fact, a problematic reaction.  The story says,  "Take Conan, the unstoppable force, and give him a magic lust compulsion, which then backfires on the evil woman who attempted to trap him via lust."  That's a pretty horrific scenario.  But no one in the story - least of all Conan - feels any remorse about what he (almost) did, and back here in the real world, the audience rushes to apologize and explain it away... that feels pretty icky to me.

I've got other responses to what Calculating... said earlier, but I want to speak to this.

I've got to say, this plot actually works for me. I see no reason to apologize for Conan.

Perhaps its the fiction thing, but the fact is that Atali was attempting to use magical mind control lust to entrap and destroy Conan for no good reason at all. There was no kindness, compassion, or justice in her actions. Conan was a victim of her mind control powers - and not in complete control of his own faculties - but his incredibly awesome Conanness caused the situation to blow up in Atali's face. That's a story.

I think we can all agree that rape is bad.

Mind control, on the other hand, doesn't actually exist. However, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that mind control is also bad.

Is mind control worse than rape? Is rape worse than mind control? Is mind control so bad that a failed attempt at mind control exploding into rape is just desserts (not in the "real justice" sense, in the "poetic" or "narrative" justice sense)? I don't pretend to know the answer to any of those questions, but I am firm in my belief that the answer is not a foregone conclusion.

What a lot of people seem to be reacting to is the fact that the situation resembles something else. Atali kind of resembles a flirt and her "mind control" resembles the lame excuses for rape that we hear a lot: she was too cute, dressed to attractively, in the wrong neighborhood.

I understand that these are not completely insane interpretations of the text. What I'd like to propose, however, is that they are not the only interpretations of the text. To some readers Atali is not a human woman, her evil mind control is simply evil mind control, and that's evil enough that maybe the situation is not so cut-and-dried as it seems to others.

Ok, I'm on a roll here so I'm going to go ahead and include my response to Calculating...

First of all, I have no idea what you mean when you say "the real fear felt by a fictional character." To me, that phrase is an oxymoron. It doesn't make any more sense to me than "the red part of a blue dress" or "the up part of moving down" (don't get snotty at me science guys; I know full well that there is a red part of a blue dress AND an up part of moving down, but I can't think of a better way to express myself. I mean in common parlance, not science fact. Go back to Escape Pod). Perhaps this is our central disagreement: I don't see any reality in fiction.

Secondly, it sounds like you are trying to say that we need to be careful of fiction that talks about bad things because it can influence real lives, like people who read Gor and become "Goreans," people who take Star Trek too seriously, and people who use Tolkien's work as an excuse for lame graffiti. You're making this point in a roundabout way, and I think I understand why. It's hard to advocate for censorship in this day and age.

My response to this can be summed up as "crazy is as crazy does." John Norman's work - that's Gor - never made anybody crazy; people who were disturbed, probably because of events in their past or unfortunate quirks of biology, ended up patterning their crazy after the books they read. Nothing about Star Trek makes people obsessive; people who find Star Trek and also have holes in their emotional lives chose to fill those holes with Star Trek. If you can find the part of Tolkien that forces people to graffiti "Frodo Lives" on things, I'll eat one of my hats.

If you're crazy, you're going to do crazy things. You might be inspired by a crazy thing you read somewhere, but it's not like you'd be a perfectly sane, safe, and normal person if only - if only! - you'd never read the wrong short story. Someone who's going to rape is going to rape whether or not he reads Conan the Barbarian short stories. You can't stop him by taking away the short stories - you need to intervene earlier, at whatever point some trauma causes his life to depart from sanity.

Ultimately, I find the idea that fiction can "cause" evil to be destructive for two reasons.

Firstly, when you say that fiction can cause someone to do something bad, you are simplifying the reasons that people become screwed up. You are replacing "he could have been a good person, but then he got caught up in complicated economic/sociopolitical/personal events that led him to a warped way of thinking, and then his cries for help were ignored" with "oops - read the wrong story!" The thing is, in some ways, it's a lot more comforting to think that stories are to blame. You can save people from stories. It's a lot harder to look at how our societies are deeply screwed up, deeply unfair, and incredibly warped and then try to figure out how to fix them. Really fixing our problems also involves a lot more sacrifice.

Secondly, that way lies censorship, close-mindedness, and damnation. I refuse to live in a world of censorship. I demand the right to read, write, create, and consume ideas however the hell I want, no matter how distasteful anybody finds them. I demand that people who want to read, write, create, and consume ideas that I find distasteful have the right to do so. Period.

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Scattercat

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Reply #70 on: June 29, 2011, 10:16:55 AM
And yet we also have a responsibility to use that freedom wisely.  It is well within bounds to criticize someone based on what they wrote, and even more appropriate to criticize the ideas themselves.  Saying that one voluntarily repudiates the negative aspects of a certain kind of speech is not censorship any more than refraining from using racial slurs toward those who annoy you is censorship. 

As I said above, this story isn't going to cause anyone to rape anyone else, and examples of fiction directly influencing lives is reaching a bit.  However, saying that art has no influence on culture is an equally extreme position, and one I don't think anyone with any studying under their belt can make.  A story that seems to have as its "moral" the idea that women are temptresses and sluts who get what they deserve if they taunt a man who has real strength is posing an idea that has too many unpleasant echoes in reality, and the more a society encourages that sort of behavior, even in play (or jokes or careless art), the more likely that society will continue to turn that direction.  Teasing out the line between reflection and influence is nearly impossible in itself, but denying that influence is possible isn't much better.  I think it's healthier to say, "This story has some problems, but it also had a lot of influence in our culture, and it has some good points to it, too," than to say "Any story is okay because stories can't hurt anyone."

To return to the story for a moment, while I agree that Atali used mind control and is pretty clearly evil and trying to manipulate Conan for evil purposes, the issue I take is that Atali IS clearly evil in the story, but Conan is not.  Conan's actions are either presented positively or neutrally.  At no point does he think to himself, "Man, I almost raped that woman.  Losing control like that was awful."  He just bulls through in a straight line and receives praise for surviving at the end.  That is what makes the story seem to favor the aggressor to me, and that is why I see the troubling connections with the modern rape apologia that comes out every time there's a case tried in courts. 



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Reply #71 on: June 29, 2011, 01:51:57 PM

When we picked this story, yes, we discussed this scene in particular, and what was happening in it.

This begs the question.... why this Conan story and not some other? Legal reasons?



Talia

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Reply #72 on: June 29, 2011, 02:00:12 PM

When we picked this story, yes, we discussed this scene in particular, and what was happening in it.

This begs the question.... why this Conan story and not some other? Legal reasons?

Dave mentioned this yesterday, I think this answers your question..

We may run more S&S - in fact, we're actively trying to get some more contemporary stuff. But the reason we ran a Robert E. Howard Conan story is because...well, it's a Robert E. Howard Conan story. And that comes with all the good stuff and all the baggage that it does. And I think the baggage is worth talking about.

One of the good things is - it's in Public Domain. Not all Conan stories are. A lot of them aren't. Some of the more recent S&S stuff from the 60s, etc. is definitely not.



Swamp

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Reply #73 on: June 29, 2011, 03:51:57 PM
However, one point Calculating... made bears outlining again; if you look at a lot of the responses on the first few pages, and in particular the responses to the (in some cases perhaps overly harsh) criticism of the story, a lot of people DID argue, "Oh, that's just Conan," and laughed it off.  I put it to (generic) you that that is, in fact, a problematic reaction. 

First of all, Scattercat, I agree with what you are saying in this thread, and much of what Calculating... has said as well.  There is a responsibility to writing and to criticizing it, or pointing out something that is bad about the content. 

I agree that that is a problematic reaction, but looking back through the thread, I really see only one example of where it seemed someone was playing it off for laughs:

Now, ladies, I think you missed the point...

SHE WAS A NAKED LADY. AND HE WANTED HER.
 

In this case, I think kibitzer was being knowingly wrong-minded in his statement to show how ridiculous that argument is.  Unfortunately, that doesn’t always come across well in text from.

Or perhaps you are referring to my own reference to “ubiquitous heaving breasts”.  I was referring to my experience with the women in Conan stories wearing very little clothing, which in the graphical form of comics, did make an impression on my adolescent hormone-filled younger self.  Yes, that is more objectification of women, which is wrong in its own right, but I was NOT making reference to the attempted rape with that statement.

I will give you that many responses sounded like “she was asking for it”, but I think those have been hashed out and explained already.

I am not trying to apologize for anyone.  I definitely do not agree with all of the statements that have been made in this thread.  And I have enjoyed this discussion.  I think it has been good.  But where I guess I feel uncomfortable with is the initial impression I got from  Calculating…’s comments were “You are a bad person if you enjoyed this story at all”.  I think that has been toned down a bit now, but everybody comes into a story with different focus and past experiences with the subject matter.

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Reply #74 on: June 29, 2011, 05:54:53 PM
Swamp, this is more the kind of post that I was reacting to:

I agree, it did get a bit rape-y in the middle, but that's just how classic heroes roll. not saying it's ok to go around forcing yourself on a ice princes (even if she tried to have you killed) but it was appropriated for this type of story.

It's not exactly playing it off for laughs, but it (and several others on the first page) definitely falls under the "Conan will be Conan" mindset that really surprised me. As we were discussing earlier, I doubt there are very many characters in fiction that could have played a central role in an unpunished (and in fact glorified) rape scene and elicited this sort of reaction.   

You mentioned earlier that:
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Regarding Conan and the attempted rape in this story, I would be interested if there are any other examples in the Conan cannon of him letting his lust take him so close to the act.  I'm not sure.  I don't remember any, but I mostly just read my friend's comics and maybe one collection of stories.  I mostly remember him fighting monsters and corrupt idolatrous priests.

I'm also keen to find this out because if this was an anomaly I wonder if that might go a long way toward explaining why Conan fans were so quick to dismiss the deeper tensions of this story.