Author Topic: EP690/EP298: The Things (Flashback Friday)  (Read 49004 times)

NoNotRogov

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Reply #50 on: July 09, 2011, 07:52:23 PM
Norm is freaking hilarious as a narrator, but I sometimes wonder if he's jarring to people not used to him from the Drabblecast, where comments such as his in this show are to be expected.

The story itself: there's so much homage/pastiche/etc. in everything from classic to contemporary SF that "plagiarism" or "fanfic" never even crossed my mind. What stuck out in the story for me, was that Watts came up with explanations that made the characters proven to be non-Things in the testing scene to actually be Things; which makes MacCready all the more alien and impressive in the story. He's the only one who avoids being very quickly assimilated, and yet the Thing is disjointed enough and not able to control all of its' tendrils that it fears him despite outnumbering him so heavily.

I'll also note something: for some reason in stories that have the well known hero as the Antagonist, as the monster, they seem to give them less dialogue and characterization than regular monster villain antagonists are given. From Beowulf in Grendel to this story here, it seems to often be the case.

As awesome as making a well known hero out to be a force of nature, an impending doom or indescribable horror from the perspective of a protagonist (like the way the fictional version of Orson Welles in "The Chinatown Death Cloud Peril" pitches a The Shadow movie where the gangster are the protagonists and The Shadow is antagonist - hunting them down and never seen clearly), I would also like to read just one story where the Hero Antagonist has a lot of dialogue and is like a chatty well characterized Villain Antagonist character rather than a plot device like zombies or an avalanche.

Overall this story gets one self-aware, mutating thumb up from me.



Westlake

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Reply #51 on: July 10, 2011, 11:24:43 AM
I see where everyone's coming from with the whole 'this is fanfic' thing. But I suppose you could then ask, where do you draw the line between fanfic and homage? That said, I do think you ought to have seen the film in order to really appreciate this story.

But moving on from that and focussing on the story in itself, I thought it was excellent, if a little self-conscious at times. The language was tight, with some cool turns of phrase. Also, the Thing's horror at the concept of individuality etc was conveyed very well, in my opinion.



jrderego

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Reply #52 on: July 10, 2011, 01:18:54 PM
...But I suppose you could then ask, where do you draw the line between fanfic and homage? That said, I do think you ought to have seen the film in order to really appreciate this story.

At the risk of reopening this discussion here and not on the thread where it belongs... The way I see it is, if you're writing a story using the characters, plot, setting, mechanics, and event sequence as written by someone else, you're writing fanfic, if you're writing a story that references those characters, plot, setting, mechanics or event sequence you're writing a homage.

But go to the other thread and see how the argument went (it was a fun one).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 01:39:10 PM by jrderego »

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Reply #53 on: July 10, 2011, 04:53:47 PM
...But I suppose you could then ask, where do you draw the line between fanfic and homage? That said, I do think you ought to have seen the film in order to really appreciate this story.

At the risk of reopening this discussion here and not on the thread where it belongs... The way I see it is, if you're writing a story using the characters, plot, setting, mechanics, and event sequence as written by someone else, you're writing fanfic, if you're writing a story that references those characters, plot, setting, mechanics or event sequence you're writing a homage.

But go to the other thread and see how the argument went (it was a fun one).
Unless it stands up on its own, you don't need to know about the other perspective, and it comes from a POV that wasn't even mentioned in the 'original'?
Sorry, I don't know how to get this over to the other thread  :(

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jrderego

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Reply #54 on: July 10, 2011, 06:58:36 PM
...But I suppose you could then ask, where do you draw the line between fanfic and homage? That said, I do think you ought to have seen the film in order to really appreciate this story.

At the risk of reopening this discussion here and not on the thread where it belongs... The way I see it is, if you're writing a story using the characters, plot, setting, mechanics, and event sequence as written by someone else, you're writing fanfic, if you're writing a story that references those characters, plot, setting, mechanics or event sequence you're writing a homage.

But go to the other thread and see how the argument went (it was a fun one).
Unless it stands up on its own, you don't need to know about the other perspective, and it comes from a POV that wasn't even mentioned in the 'original'?
Sorry, I don't know how to get this over to the other thread  :(

The other thread is pegged at the top of Science Fiction Discussion.

http://forum.escapeartists.net/index.php?topic=5081.0

And, yes. Even if it's a different POV, it's fanfic. As stated several times, this is my opinion not a universally acknowledged truth. Fanfic by design can't stand up on its own. The responses to The Things, from all who haven't seen The Thing or read Who Goes There (read the bleedin' thread) all complain about some measure of narrative confusion. That's because the The Things is requires knowing the situation, setting, and characters of the donor work(s) to be completely comprehensible.

Also, as stated, I liked this story. I thought it was clever and well written. My complaint was that the fan community doesn't value originality by virtue of this work being nominated for a Hugo. Ok, I'm out of this discussion because it's getting repetitive.

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Anarkey

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Reply #55 on: July 10, 2011, 08:06:24 PM

And, yes. Even if it's a different POV, it's fanfic. As stated several times, this is my opinion not a universally acknowledged truth. Fanfic by design can't stand up on its own. The responses to The Things, from all who haven't seen The Thing or read Who Goes There (read the bleedin' thread) all complain about some measure of narrative confusion. That's because the The Things is requires knowing the situation, setting, and characters of the donor work(s) to be completely comprehensible.

I wanted to mention that I have not - so far as I know - seen the original and had no idea the story was related to anything else, but managed to understand the gist of it just fine.  Here's to keeping the stats real, and avoiding the whole universal response blanket statement which is rarely true anyway.  

Then again, I may have a higher than mean tolerance for narrative confusion.  Then again, again, I'm sure I'm not the only one who understood it well enough to enjoy it without the frame of reference of the original, even if I'm in the minority.    

And while this isn't my favorite, I still heart Peter Watts and I dug this story.

edited to remove extraneous article.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 08:08:15 PM by Anarkey »

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motoyugota

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Reply #56 on: July 11, 2011, 02:29:14 AM
Ugh. This is the first story here in a long time that I just could not get through. The writing style, the content, the fact that it drags on and on and goes nowhere, sorry, absolutely terrible. I kept going for far longer than I should have, hoping that it would somehow redeem itself, and it never did.



iamafish

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Reply #57 on: July 11, 2011, 10:34:44 AM
this one actually grew on me quite a bit. At first i was very confused and slightly bored. I've never seen The Thing or read Who Goes There, so i was pretty lost to start with. Eventually i managed to see through the confusion and get the point, even if i didn't get the story too well. Enjoyable, but not outstanding, because it was just too hard to get into for someone unfamiliar with the original work

I think that is a massive flaw in the story, because it makes it very hard for someone unfamiliar with the original to get into it. It's like watching a sequel where so much is reliant on the first film, that it's impossible to get into. Any derivative work needs to stand up on its own, not be propped up by the work from which it is derived.

on a different note, reading through a thread which has been the subject of a split is really odd, because you get the eerie feeling that there's something missing, but you're not sure what until the mod says the thread has been split.


jrderego

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Reply #58 on: July 11, 2011, 09:53:17 PM
this one actually grew on me quite a bit. At first i was very confused and slightly bored. I've never seen The Thing or read Who Goes There, so i was pretty lost to start with. Eventually i managed to see through the confusion and get the point, even if i didn't get the story too well. Enjoyable, but not outstanding, because it was just too hard to get into for someone unfamiliar with the original work

I think that is a massive flaw in the story, because it makes it very hard for someone unfamiliar with the original to get into it. It's like watching a sequel where so much is reliant on the first film, that it's impossible to get into. Any derivative work needs to stand up on its own, not be propped up by the work from which it is derived.

on a different note, reading through a thread which has been the subject of a split is really odd, because you get the eerie feeling that there's something missing, but you're not sure what until the mod says the thread has been split.

we're doing blood serum tests in the split off thread.

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Scattercat

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Reply #59 on: July 12, 2011, 07:53:54 AM
we're doing blood serum tests in the split off thread.

*Points*
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Reply #60 on: July 12, 2011, 02:40:28 PM
And, yes. Even if it's a different POV, it's fanfic. As stated several times, this is my opinion not a universally acknowledged truth. Fanfic by design can't stand up on its own. The responses to The Things, from all who haven't seen The Thing or read Who Goes There (read the bleedin' thread) all complain about some measure of narrative confusion. That's because the The Things is requires knowing the situation, setting, and characters of the donor work(s) to be completely comprehensible.

Not "all".  I have not seen the source movie or prose, and I was not any more confused than I was supposed to be.  It took me a bit of time to sort out the rules, but that is to be expected with any competently written non-human POV, and all the details were laid out for me to understand.



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Reply #61 on: July 12, 2011, 04:09:47 PM
This story wasn't captivating to me, but I do think it was a very interesting POV commentary with the movie.  And, a very nice synopsis, if you've seen the movie.

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InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #62 on: July 12, 2011, 04:16:07 PM
we're doing blood serum tests in the split off thread.

*Points*
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Now, see, I thought this was to see if you were a Changeling, rather than a pod.....



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Reply #63 on: July 12, 2011, 09:48:04 PM
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:37:08 PM by stePH »

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Reply #64 on: July 12, 2011, 10:42:52 PM
All i can say is, when i see a story labeled: "Hugo Winner", i hope to find something like this.

I've read the story (years ago), but have never seen the movie.  I think i still would have liked it and understood enough of it, even if i'd never read the story.

EDIT: having listened to the other available nominees for short story, this one is indeed my pick for for Hugo winner.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 08:24:38 PM by jwbjerk »



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Reply #65 on: July 12, 2011, 10:44:58 PM

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Sgarre1

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Reply #66 on: July 22, 2011, 12:50:09 AM
Well, finally got to listen to it.  I enjoyed it, a bit more at the start than by the end.  I would assume it was inspired by the comments on the DVD commentary track about how Carpenter and the cast amused themselves during filming with an ongoing debate as to whether those who had become the THING would even know they were the THING (that is - did it replicate everything, including memory, and then control, or was it total replication and replacement?).  I thought the viewpoint was interesting, although as it went on I almost wanted it to be a little *more* alien, it seemed to rely a bit too much on human terminology in its thought processes (I realize that that is a tightrope that has to be walked when writing from an alien POV, for my money the one word that kept getting under my skin was "shapeshift" - and I didn't feel the rest of the story supported a reading where the THING integrates its hosts languages, either).

I liked its realization that humans died/ended.  Good stuff.  Nice reader choice as well.

Unfortunately, though, I still felt what I'd feared (and I'll try to be brief so as not to relegate this to the other split off thread) - it's really great to have a story idea like this but other considerations outside of the creative act should be taken up and, to put it bluntly, Campbell - and even more so Bill Lancaster, let's be honest here - did a lot of the heavy lifting and Peter Wells was able to take advantage of their work to produce his.  I mean, there's even direct lifts of Lancaster's dialogue and scenarios here (in fact, I felt that that was one of the weakest points - the need to have to go back and "explain" why certain scenes in the movie happened the way they did if we, with this new story, are now privy to inside knowledge of who was THING and who wasn't - so the cardiac paddles scene gets to be replayed because the THING has to explain why it would allow itself to be hurt - hmmmm...) and so Wells also gets to kind of ride the coattails of a memorable, wonderfully ambiguous ending (while providing us with an answer to that ambiguity that, honestly, I never wanted).

But, I know, it's only a story.  A story I enjoyed listening to, a story that obviously had some depth to it and much thought behind it, - but sorry, IMHO a story that has an eternal asterisk next to it and really shouldn't have been up for an award (whether it be a Hugo, a Parsec, a Shirley Jackson, a BSFA, a Ted Sturgeon Memorial or a Locus - although as Eytanz pointed out, I guess none of those are awards for originality either).  A fun story, a thoughtful story, but not whole work on its own.

I wonder if a story about Freddy Krueger(tm) musing on his indeterminate state between NIGHTMARE(tm) films, eternally defeated (different every time), eternally resurrected (just by being remembered), aware that he's in a film series (thanks to NEW NIGHTMARE(tm) - FREDDY VS. JASON(tm), that followed, actually had him directly addressing the audience in his opening narration), heck - pissed that he's treated like an action figure to be pitted against another franchise "monster", and then horrified to find he's being resurrected in a different form, retooled for the next generation of dumber teens who he hates - I wonder if such a story would be as warmly embraced?  Lots of neat ideas there, lots of meat, but shouldn't writing be something more than that?  Maybe not.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 01:51:07 AM by Sgarre1 »



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Reply #67 on: July 22, 2011, 12:39:55 PM
I think Freddy isn't quite the same; he's already gone meta, to a certain extent, and his very nature is more flexible and accepting of metanarrative than "The Thing," which was very much without a sly wink and nod at the audience for the most part.  I'd be a lot more accepting of a Freddy meta-story, I think.



gjones9

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Reply #68 on: July 25, 2011, 03:30:18 AM
I listened to this story twice before I realized it was based on both a movie and older short story. I love the story and think it is deserving of the Hugo.  It is the only Hugo-nom story I have revisited three times.  I have since seen the John Carpenter movie (generating revenue for the studio, hopefully easing the minds of those commentators worry about copyright whatnots and such things).  The topics that captivated me are myriad, and include the classic drama inherent in "the clash of cultures" motif, not to mention the increasingly relevant monster's perspective angle.  Also, the nuts-and-bolts sci-fi speculation about alternative biology was utterly fascinating.           



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Reply #69 on: August 11, 2011, 05:04:09 PM
I have only a superficial knowledge of the movie and still managed to enjoy this a lot. While it's true that it does drag on about how weird it is that human has a fixed shape a bit longer than really needed, it is one of the best alien POV stories I've encountered, and the sense of loss and confusion is very well executed. I don't see how taking a story and turning it inside out plus injecting your own writing style can really be counted as anything else than original.



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Reply #70 on: August 29, 2011, 01:29:28 AM
not much to say... but i really loved this story

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Sgarre1

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Reply #71 on: September 10, 2011, 06:25:36 PM
"From the producers of the DAWN OF THE DEAD remake, the remake of the remake of THE THING"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKjErC2JLQc

(Of course, they institute "CoverYourAss" by claiming it's a prequel but, seriously, who buys that?)

So maybe Peter Wells can get another award winning story out of it?  ;)



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Reply #72 on: September 10, 2011, 08:13:08 PM
*ahem*

Boss? It has Mary Elizabeth Winstead in it. And Mr Eko from Lost.

And...it looks kind of great actually. The director is on record as saying they spent a LOT of time studying the Norwegian camp scenes and reverse engineering what we see to get to what causes it.

I'm honestly pretty excited about this movie:)



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Reply #73 on: September 11, 2011, 12:13:32 AM
Oh don't mind me, I'm an old grump - I'll probably still go see it anyway!  But I do dread that a previous masterwork of practical special effects is going to be remade with a lot of CGI.


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matweller

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Reply #74 on: June 25, 2012, 03:26:56 PM
Because I mentioned this earlier in the thread...

In case you're interested in an amateur audio drama of Who Goes There? -- the story The Thing was based on, you may want to check this out:
http://matweller.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/released-who-goes-there-the-story-the-movie-the-thing-was-based-on/

I really want to help this project out, so I'm going to post it a couple applicable places on the forum. Please forgive me if you see this post creep up elsewhere.