Author Topic: PC164: A Hunter’s Ode To His Bait  (Read 19463 times)

Ocicat

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on: July 05, 2011, 04:30:41 PM
PodCastle 164: A Hunter’s Ode To His Bait


by Carrie Vaughn

Read by John Trevillian

Originally published in Realms of Fantasy. Read the story at Fantasy Magazine.

After a week of sitting in the cold, the creature came.

It stepped out of the trees, out of the twilight mist, head low to the ground and nostrils quivering. A silver shadow in the form of a horse, seemingly made of mist itself. The long, spiral horn growing from its forehead reflected what little light remained in the world and seemed to glow.

The girl’s gasp carried all the way to Duncan’s blind. The unicorn’s head lifted, ears pricked forward hard, and he feared that she’d startle the thing away. But no, her scent was strong, and its instinct was powerful. Instead of cringing in fear, she got to her knees and reached toward it with both hands, whispering to it.

It leaned toward her, like a horse would to a bucket of grain. It made careful, silent steps, not even rustling the fallen leaves. Its thick mane fell forward, covering its neck. It huffed quick breaths at her, stretching forward to sniff at her fingers. The girl cupped her hands. The unicorn rested its muzzle on her palms and sighed.

Duncan shot his arrow, striking the creature’s neck.


Rated R: Contains Sexuality and Graphic Violence
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 11:08:56 AM by Talia »



Lionman

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Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 06:22:06 PM
I have to say, I was waiting for the offensive part, but I'm not sure it really ever materialized.  There was some skirting of the subject at the end as both of the jaded old men were excited by the young maiden, but the violence wasn't something I didn't expect by the time we'd jumped in the story to where they were packing up their 9th kill.  Hunters hunt.  They kill prey, it's a circle of life sort of thing.  Then again, perhaps that's why it didn't bother me as much, because in the genre of fantasy, the circle of life is just a little bigger than it is in the real world.

I liked the story, the gentle, gradual building of it.  The various events weren't terribly surprising, considering how the story was building.  However, that didn't make the story any less enjoyable.

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Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 09:49:07 PM
 I actually really enjoyed this story.  Wait for it....no, the world is not ending. Okay good. I was waiting for the really offensive part that would send me off on yet another crazy feminist rant, but I didn't find it all that offensive. The only offensive thing I can think of is that there is definitely a form of Stockholm syndrome going on here, and that old men will always find young wild nubile virgins attractive, but I would be really surprised if someone didn't see that coming.  She was sold to a man, essentially raised by him, he gave her everything (food, clothes, morals, a sense of belonging and purpose), he secluded her from the world, and gave her the appearance of choice, if not real choice, over her future.  It makes sense that she would not only choose to stay with him but be attracted to him because that is all she has ever really known. Disturbing, yes, but not really offensive. 

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Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 11:26:30 PM
I figured there was gonna be a weird 'unicorn on man on girl thing' going on, but in the end, it was just a man and woman on a dead unicorn...

Ok, that was kinda weird, but hey Rule 34, right?

To be honest, I was waiting for the girl to be turned into a unicorn or perhaps she would lure the giant unicorn to somehow kill Duncan or maybe even turn Duncan into a unicorn in some sort of strange twist.

I think what I really enjoyed about the story is that there were no excuses made for the "human" aspect of everyone involved. Moreover, I'd love to hear more about the Duncan character. It seems quite clear he is deliberately hunting Old Magic for a specific reason. I think that aspect intrigued me most and I kept waiting for some sort of darker aspect to come out.

I was also sad that the Legend of legendary unicorns died. I have a soft spot for unicorns ever since I read a few stories that spun the 'unicorns digging virgins' on it's head. I had hoped the unicorn was gonna win and ride off into the sunset.

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olivaw

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Reply #4 on: July 06, 2011, 12:51:58 AM
A sweet story about an abusive relationship.
Elenor's not far off the mark when she says she's being used as a prostitute; her sexuality made a commodity, she's not allowed to develop any other natural relationships. And yet it's clear she has long since taken command of her relationship with Duncan, or at least promoted herself from slave to working partner, by the time of the dance.
Here's hoping she ditches the loser.



InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #5 on: July 06, 2011, 04:38:17 PM
My first reaction with the intro was "Oh my God, It's "My Little Pony!!!"

Ok, no fear of that... thankfully.

I, too, waited for the shocking offensive part. Probably because I don't shock or offend very easily. I have yet to be shocked or offended by anything here or on Escape Pod. Occasionally creeped out, or "oh... WOW! (que lastima!)" but that's about it.

(Dave ... perhaps you shouldn't give away the game with "you will be SHOCKED!! by this ending!!"" ? Just a suggestion....)

Otherwise, it was a good story. The author did a good job with the emotion of desire (glad I was listening alone), and, yeah, the relationship between the hunter and the bait was more than a little twisted, but I thought it was plausible (Lord knows stranger things have happened in real life). I liked that Unicorns are not, in a twist, equated with "good" but are rather attracted to human sexuality.

Which of course begs the question ... are there gay unicorns?

But THAT will probably offend somebody....



Spindaddy

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Reply #6 on: July 06, 2011, 05:44:40 PM
Which of course begs the question ... are there gay unicorns?

But THAT will probably offend somebody....

Alan Dean Foster wrote a couple of books called the "Spellsinger series". At one point there is a gay unicorn, but I read it so long ago, I can't remember what happens. It wasn't in the fist book, but I think it might have been in the third or fourth book.

Personally I've always wondered if there are FEMALE unicorns. All the stories I've ever read have usually referenced unicorns being male for some strange reason.

And... honestly... was anyone else kinda creeped out by the two humans coupling on the carcass of the Uber Unicorn? I understand the culmination of the 'love story' but really? On the carcass? Just ewwww.

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Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 09:23:34 PM
Yeah, "doing it" in spilled Unicorn blood, against the remains of the old one...a bit twisted.  Not that twisted is bad!

I'm just lukewarm about this one.  I liked it well enough, it didn't shock or offend me.  (Although the details of the first dying unicorn did make me sad.) This one falls in the middle of my personal list of favorite PodCastles.  Not at or near the top, but certainly not at the bottom either...

Maybe it's because I didn't particularly like Duncan and Eleanor.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 09:26:59 PM by danooli »



Anarquistador

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Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 11:49:56 PM
Chalk me up as one of those who enjoyed the story, but was waiting to be offended and was slightly disappointed when it didn't happen. I mean, yeah, the relationship was slightly disturbing, but not really as messed up as I expected.

Although, I am a little depressed that Duncan basically destroys magic for a living. Making the world more mundane one creature at a time. And it's not even like he's doing something cool, like dragonslaying or mime-crushing. No, he's killing frigging unicorns! On the other hand, the unicorns were pretty bad-ass, which is something I wasn't expecting and found to be a refreshing change. No little pink Anime characters dying needlessly here, no sir.

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Julio

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Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 12:26:52 AM
I think the hunting just killed it for me. The killing of magic. Making the world more of a normal place.



Anarquistador

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Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 02:36:38 PM
Personally I've always wondered if there are FEMALE unicorns. All the stories I've ever read have usually referenced unicorns being male for some strange reason.

Well...would we be able to identify them if there were? Think about it: in the animal kingdom, horns are almost exclusively the province of the male of the species. Female unicorns probably wouldn't have horns, or at least they wouldn't be as prominent as they are on a male. So then...a female unicorn might just look like a regular horse...

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InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 05:14:11 PM

Although, I am a little depressed that Duncan basically destroys magic for a living. Making the world more mundane one creature at a time.

Yeah, what's up with that? I wish Vaughn has expanded on that at least a little more.


Well...would we be able to identify them if there were? Think about it: in the animal kingdom, horns are almost exclusively the province of the male of the species.

Um ... actually, no. Goats, sheep, musk-ox, caribou, bison, water buffalo, cape buffalo, most antelope I can think of, rhinos.... all have horns on both sexes..
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 05:26:36 PM by InfiniteMonkey »



Spindaddy

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Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 05:23:17 PM
Personally I've always wondered if there are FEMALE unicorns. All the stories I've ever read have usually referenced unicorns being male for some strange reason.
Well...would we be able to identify them if there were? Think about it: in the animal kingdom, horns are almost exclusively the province of the male of the species. Female unicorns probably wouldn't have horns, or at least they wouldn't be as prominent as they are on a male. So then...a female unicorn might just look like a regular horse...
I disagree! Cows have horns... both males and females. There are other examples in nature as well with the female of the species also possessing horns. I believe Antlers are the exclusive province of males, but antlers fall off. Maybe female unicorns are just not dumb enough to get caught messing around with young virgins.

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Anarquistador

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Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 06:29:08 PM
I must have been thinking of antlers, not horns. I stand corrected.

...which opens up the can of worms as to whether a unicorn's "horn" is a horn at all, or an antler-like structure. I don't know, does there exist a comprehensive study of the biology of fantasic creatures that I can consult on this matter? If not, could somebody write one?

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Reply #14 on: July 07, 2011, 06:46:04 PM
I too was waiting for disturbing and shocking and then the music played and I was left wondering what part of the story I was supposed to be disturbed about....

Good story.  I like the slow build and my interpretation of events is that Eleanor has long since realized what she wanted and set about getting finally.  The WHY of her want might be disturbing I guess, but really, it made sense in the context of the story.  I feel like this story wasn't so much about taking down the Ubercorn but more about Eleanor capturing Duncan.

Also, hooray for non-weak unicorns.  Now if you'll excuse me, I have to convince Charlie to go with me to Candy Mountain.

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Reply #15 on: July 07, 2011, 09:01:43 PM
I have to say, I was waiting for the offensive part, but I'm not sure it really ever materialized.  There was some skirting of the subject at the end as both of the jaded old men were excited by the young maiden, but the violence wasn't something I didn't expect by the time we'd jumped in the story to where they were packing up their 9th kill.  Hunters hunt.  They kill prey, it's a circle of life sort of thing.  Then again, perhaps that's why it didn't bother me as much, because in the genre of fantasy, the circle of life is just a little bigger than it is in the real world.

I liked the story, the gentle, gradual building of it.  The various events weren't terribly surprising, considering how the story was building.  However, that didn't make the story any less enjoyable.

Have to agree. I was expecting a different kind of ending. As it is, it is a bit predictable but you promised a shocker so I thought there'd be a twist.

Loved the story, all in all. The character of the Hunter intrigued me and the girl was described in sufficiently vague detail that one could fill in the blanks with one's own preferences.



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Reply #16 on: July 07, 2011, 09:20:37 PM
Heh. Sorry I misled you all :) It really was not intentional.

Personally, I thought a) the killing of unicorns, b) that those killing the unicorns (and magic) managed not only to survive, but c) have sex against the corpse of a unicorn to consumate their relationship was shocking (in a good way). At least, that's why we gave this one a warning at the beginning of the episode.

You all are a hard lot to predict sometimes, but I dig that about you  :D


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Reply #17 on: July 08, 2011, 02:11:21 AM
I liked it, it was gritty fantasy.  Like everyone else I was primed to be shocked, and when the unicorn became aroused I thought "here it comes" but it didnt happen. 

I liked this story partly because it left me thinking about the world the characters live in (what else do they have that is magical? how is the society organised?), and the unspoken motivations of the main characters (why does Duncan want the power that comes with the hunt, and is that even true seeing that it was a minor character that stated it?  What drives the girl to want to kill that last unicorn?  Is she seeking power herself to raise herself above her current situation?). 

Just as an aside my 13yo son tells me a unicorn without a horn is called a nullacorn.  :-\



Spindaddy

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Reply #18 on: July 08, 2011, 03:05:17 AM
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to convince Charlie to go with me to Candy Mountain.
Charrrrrrlieeeeee.... come to candy mountain with us!

Unicorn is definitly a horn. Antlers fall off.

I dunno... I've listened to the story 3 times now and I gotta say I dig it enough to go looking for the authors other works. Its weird, its wacky and its totally deviant. I hate the fact Duncan is being a jerk and killing the magic in the world, but there is something compelling about him at the same time. What drives this guy? How can he treat Elanor the way he does and still live with himself at the end of the day? What Power is he getting? Is it the rush of the hunt so to speak?

Arg!

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Scattercat

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Reply #19 on: July 08, 2011, 05:15:31 AM
Interesting story.  The warning made me expect it to get a lot darker than it did.  I was seriously expecting, like, I dunno, the unicorn to actually rape the girl or something appalling like that, because it was explicitly billed as worse than the Conan story about unrepentant goddess-raping and as dark or darker than "Mermaids' Tea Party," which featured (implied) necrophiliac fish sex and (unconsummated) pedophiliac urges.  Fade-to-black sex on an animal carcass?  Eh. 

Man, the Internet has really pushed the bar on "disturbing" way, way up for me.  I'm not exactly happy about this.

Olivaw has basically covered my overall reaction with "A sweet story about an abusive relationship."  That was really, really NOT a healthy dynamic those two had going there, and I foresee tears and bitter recriminations in their future, followed by a slow spiral into maudlin regret.  When you spend THAT long hankering for something and restraining yourself, reality will NEVER be able to live up to it. 

I'm troubled by the thematic implications, as I usually am by unicorn stories that delve into the idea of virginity qua virginity.  Her sole - or at least her primary - attractive quality is her unattainability, and the story never questions the inherent dynamic of woman as provider-of-sex for man as seeker/attainer-of-sex, which is one that I think isn't tremendously positive or helpful, however much it might be modeled by biology.  At this point, culture trumps biology in terms of selection pressure for humans, and I'm lukewarm on celebrating the Old Bad Ways.  The specific relationship within the story is ameliorated somewhat by the hints that Duncan is, in fact, attracted to her as a person in addition to a prize or object - he admires her pride and her bearing, for example - but the story's climax (no pun intended) doesn't leave much room for Eleanor to function as anything other than bait.  She lures the ultimate unicorn, and immediately afterward lures the ultimate man, and thus... fulfillment!  Hurrah for womanhood!  It's all about getting the choicest horn, the one that's hardest to attract and entrance.  Does the horn respect you as a person or care about you in any meaningful way beyond its immediate desire for you?  Who cares!?  It's huge!

Unicorns are always about sex, though, and specifically about female sexuality as seen through the prism of the male perspective.  Virginity is a strong attractor because, biologically speaking, you're guaranteed that children you get on a virgin are yours (Biblical cuckolding aside).  For the male, who - again, biologically speaking - doesn't care about a partner so much as just getting as many receptacles for his seed as possible, a virgin at peak fertility is about as good as it gets.  Thus, the traditional patriarchal control over women's body parts, iron-fisted and released slowly and with much backpedaling, if ever accomplished at all.  Unicorns are the mythological embodiment of the Male Gaze, a walking phallic symbol that mystically recognizes these reproductive treasures; the woman in these stories is naturally just thrilled to have attracted such a rare beast as a unicorn.  After all, says the Male Gaze, looking smugly upon its fantasy version of itself, who wouldn't be?



Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #20 on: July 08, 2011, 05:43:34 AM
Scattercat, I had English teachers like you.

I hated English class.

Just saying. :)

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Reply #21 on: July 08, 2011, 08:09:11 AM
Hi! I'm de-lurking. I blame it on the phase of the moon.

Scattercat, I could've used a few more English teachers like you. :D That said, I disagree that this story doesn't question or at least engage with "the Bad Old Ways." I liked the way Eleanor plays with the archetype of sheltered and feminine and virginal, because she is all of those things while still being a hunter with an agenda of her own and motives which aren't entirely sympathetic. (What have the unicorns ever done to them?) I mean, I wish that weren't a semi-novel approach a millennium and a half after the development of the Marian cult, but there you have it. And it's not all about luring "the ultimate man" because, as you say, it's a totally unhealthy dynamic they have. The story practically dares you to root for them as a couple, but never lets you forget how dysfunctional that coupling is.

Anyway.

I'm with everyone who was expecting something a lot more traumatic after the build-up in the introduction. It seems like storytellers have always had a weird, conflicted relationship with unicorns and the virgins who are supposed to lure them in. It makes sense that the hunter's relationship with his bait would be just as complicated.



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Reply #22 on: July 08, 2011, 08:16:37 AM
I must say that this was an excellent story. I, too, was waiting to be offended, because I love to be mildly offended by good fiction. The offense never came, but I still loved the tactful naughtiness of the story. It opened up and I was expecting pedophilia, but it quickly became evident, to my relief, that that wasn't the case. Then a unicorn died, and I thought of the canned unicorn meat that's sold over at Think Geek. When he "took her" at the end, I thought of the canned unicorn meat again, but with nudity. But I think the best part of the episode was the "horny unicorns" joke. I LoL'd.



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Reply #23 on: July 08, 2011, 09:34:47 AM
@Wilson

Well, given that I WAS an English teacher, it's not really surprising that I sound like one.  BA in English Literature with a concentration in Theater, Masters of Education.

I liked the way Eleanor plays with the archetype of sheltered and feminine and virginal, because she is all of those things while still being a hunter with an agenda of her own and motives which aren't entirely sympathetic.

While I understand that there really can't be many other options, given her background, it still rankles that all we get in terms of female sexuality is Eleanor being really tempting and using that to trap an unwilling man.  I agree that it's not an unthinking paean to Passive Woman/Pursuing Man, but from a broader perspective, it makes me feel a little tired and unhappy.  My dissatisfaction is not so much with this story specifically, which isn't particularly appalling or regressive on that front and, as you say, does feature at least some agency on Eleanor's part, but rather with the way unicorn stories always end up reinforcing that pattern whenever they examine it, even when written with a clearly more modern perspective.  I would argue that this is because the unicorn, in its symbolic mode, is inherently about the way men look at female sexuality, and thus has a very hard time being anything other than patriarchal unless wholly subverted, which it was not here. 

For example, the line about "men pay more for virgins" is twisted from men taking virginity as an abstract matter of property to being about the power of tamping down desire and delaying gratification, with Eleanor being the ultimate temptation because she's repressed herself/been repressed for so long that her sexuality has become weaponized.  While that is better than just being a wallet for a pristine vagina, it still leaves Eleanor with her only role as a lure rather than a hunter, a trap rather than an ambush.  And once she does act, she loses her power, whereas Duncan retains the worldly experience and money that make him a powerful man.  Eleanor is potent femininity, but she's still functionally passive and reliant on the more powerful male (beast or human) choosing her; she can offer, but she cannot force or choose for herself.  That's what I mean about the old patterns reamaining; not reversed or broken, just tweaked a little.

(To clarify, when I said "ultimate man," I meant ultimate in Eleanor's eyes.  She was raised by him from her preteen years, and while he's hardly an ideal parent, he's clearly at least better than her biological parents and far from overtly abusive; of course she idolizes him and views him as hers to catch.  The whole episode with the final unicorn is Eleanor's last and strongest bid to win his heart, which she does by offering herself as bait, but this time doing it extra sexily.)



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Reply #24 on: July 08, 2011, 02:03:15 PM
I'm not sure where the outrage came from in the original posting of this story, I didn't see it.  Duncan treated Eleanor better than her own mother, if you take out the controlling nature of their relationship, which probably would have existed no matter what relationship she got into, given her background and status in society.  He fed her well, kept her company without sexually abusing her, kept her away from predatory men, and was willing to give her half of their earnings.  He's definitely not an ideal parent or partner, but was probably better than she would have ended up with otherwise. 

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Reply #25 on: July 08, 2011, 02:37:05 PM
can I just point to Scattercat's first post and nod vigorously? no? okay then :P

I listened to the whole story with baited breath for the shock that never came. (wow, I'm getting jaded) I'm actually really tempted to go look up that first outraged debate and see what all the fuss was about.

It's interesting that even though we keep referencing how unicorn stories represent man's view of woman, this story was actually written by an empowered, modern-day woman. It was a refreshing that Eleanor was characterized as growing into a smart, confident woman who was comfortable with her role in the world and with what she (eventually) perceived to be an equal relationship with Duncan. At the same time, I'm disappointed that her ultimate victory was to use her body to entrap two wily old men against their will. It would have been a much stronger ending if Duncan wanted to go after the final unicorn and Eleanor found the ability to say "no, we're done. It's time to move on" (IMHO).


Just as an aside my 13yo son tells me a unicorn without a horn is called a nullacorn.  :-\

I love this! :D



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Reply #26 on: July 08, 2011, 10:47:06 PM
Unicorns have bloodlust and don't just sit all pretty farting out rainbows on posters in pre-teen girls' rooms? AWESOME!



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Reply #27 on: July 09, 2011, 02:43:23 AM
I'm with Trickster61 on this. I also thought it was kinda gritty fantasy. I liked it. And the world building too. It seemed to be like a late Medieval English setting with fading magic in it.

But most of all, I was really quite impressed with the writing. This incidentally runs counter to my reaction to Amaryllis (by the same authoress, yes?) which really didn't impress me. This then begs the question, what am I thinking when I listen to different stories? or is it how and when they are written? or everything wrapped up into one?

Maybe it was that I was trying to pay more attention to each sentence, to the flow of the narrative, but I really thought it was well written. Congratulations to Vaughn.

And double congratulations to the narrator. It might be a bit idle to judge a story by its narration, but what is one to do with audio tales and podcasts if not at least a little of this? I really digged it all round.

As for the shockingness, I guess shameless unicorn-killers are inherently nasty characters. And yes, that sex scene at the end is just kinda creepy. But both characters were nicely rounded; complex, alert, even sensitive. Highly so, in fact.

Yep, I liked this one.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 02:46:06 AM by Salul »

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Reply #28 on: July 10, 2011, 01:13:00 AM
I didn't think the story was especially shocking, either. It read like just another fantasy story to me.

Of course, I think that because Eleanor was really anything but innocent, the unicorns should have seen through her. She may have been a physical virgin, but I think that because her intentions were dark, that should have soiled her somehow.

I'd rather have seen the unicorn see through her treachery, spear her with his horn, and walked away offended at the false innocence.  :)



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Reply #29 on: July 10, 2011, 04:02:15 AM
Scattercat, I had English teachers like you.

I hated English class.

Just saying. :)

This made me absolutely, truly laugh out loud.

Just saying :-)


Obleo21

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Reply #30 on: July 10, 2011, 01:26:35 PM
(To clarify, when I said "ultimate man," I meant ultimate in Eleanor's eyes.  She was raised by him from her preteen years, and while he's hardly an ideal parent, he's clearly at least better than her biological parents and far from overtly abusive; of course she idolizes him and views him as hers to catch.  The whole episode with the final unicorn is Eleanor's last and strongest bid to win his heart, which she does by offering herself as bait, but this time doing it extra sexily.)

I enjoyed this story and did not find it offensive, but if anything had an ick factor, I think it would be this.  Duncan is a father figure that she decides to seduce and he lets her.  I got the sense that she is punishing herself for participation in the destruction of magic for no purpose.  The story states over and over that they were wealthy enough to stop.



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Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 01:30:35 AM

I'd rather have seen the unicorn see through her treachery, spear her with his horn, and walked away offended at the false innocence.  :)

I'm with you there. I was rooting for the unicorns!

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iamafish

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Reply #32 on: July 11, 2011, 08:12:41 PM
well i enjoyed it.

I was waiting for the truly shocking part, maybe a bit of bestiality or rape, but in the end it was just a slightly unconventional setting for the consummation of a slightly strange, probably unhealthy but still kinda touching relationship. It's good to see unicorns portrayed without a bloody rainbow for once, though.

another good story from Pod Castle, 2011 has been pretty for from the castle so far! Keep up the good work folks.


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Reply #33 on: July 12, 2011, 07:56:06 AM
(To clarify, when I said "ultimate man," I meant ultimate in Eleanor's eyes.  She was raised by him from her preteen years, and while he's hardly an ideal parent, he's clearly at least better than her biological parents and far from overtly abusive; of course she idolizes him and views him as hers to catch.  The whole episode with the final unicorn is Eleanor's last and strongest bid to win his heart, which she does by offering herself as bait, but this time doing it extra sexily.)
I enjoyed this story and did not find it offensive, but if anything had an ick factor, I think it would be this.  Duncan is a father figure that she decides to seduce and he lets her.

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jenfullmoon

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Reply #34 on: July 12, 2011, 04:06:05 PM
Although, I am a little depressed that Duncan basically destroys magic for a living. Making the world more mundane one creature at a time. And it's not even like he's doing something cool, like dragonslaying or mime-crushing. No, he's killing frigging unicorns! On the other hand, the unicorns were pretty bad-ass, which is something I wasn't expecting and found to be a refreshing change. No little pink Anime characters dying needlessly here, no sir.

Might I recommend Diana Peterfreund's books "Rampant" and "Ascendant?" There's virgins and unicorn killing in those books, but that's because most unicorns go berserk and homicidal around human beings... Okay, there's more to it than that, but if you liked this story, you might enjoy those books too.



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Reply #35 on: July 12, 2011, 08:20:16 PM
Oh.

My.

Mother.

Fucking.

God.

This was possibly the hottest story I have ever heard. My wife came home from work right after I finished listening to it and we had sex up against a dead unicorn immediately. The pacing was perfect, the buildup from grimy beginning to incredibly steamy conclusion so exquisitely timed that I almost didn't notice what was happening until it happened. And then it happened! And then we had sex on a dead unicorn.

I'd like to note here that my college friends commonly referred to virgins as "unicorn bait." At one point a friend - happy to have lost her virginity - ran through the halls of a nearby shopping mall screaming "no more unicorn bait!" over and over again.

I had some odd friends.

I am not immune to the two main critiques I read of this story - that Duncan is a magic killer and that the age difference was kind of creepy - but those factors did not bother me as I read the story.

Firstly, there's a part of me that is not very pro-magic. I mean, magic is all well and good, but about half of me thinks that unless magic has explicit value for people, it isn't intrinsically any more valuable than anything else in the world. I mean, unicorns are all well and good, but it's a dark Dark Age, and a dude's got to eat. Of course, there's a part of me that does value magic as special and wonderful and beautiful. Duncan shot that part of me in the throat in the first scene and it didn't come out of hiding until after the story was over - good job, Vaughn.

As to the second critique, I wasn't bothered by the age difference because it wasn't much of a factor. Duncan was much older, but he wasn't creepily interested in her innocence and vulnerability - in fact, he wasn't very hot for her until she took control of her sexuality and started enjoying it - and he was good to her, giving her a fair share of the money they made together. That made him a decent guy in my book, and the age difference was just another thing.

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Dave

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Reply #36 on: July 12, 2011, 10:48:22 PM
When you hype the shock so much before the story even begins, I expect to be paid off with some actual shock, not with an obvious ending that was telegraphed from the first paragraph. I know you guys love the stories, and that's great, but maybe ease back on the hyperbole a bit =P

I liked this story just fine. I'm not sure what's offensive about it- other than the throwaway "this is the only power a girl like me can ever have" line that- oh, wait, yeah, that's pretty freakin' offensive right there. And adds nothing to the story, and would not be missed if it were excised.

Other than that the characters behaved more or less as I'd expect characters in such a setting to behave. The angry unicorn was pretty cool. And Eleanor reminded of many of my childhood fantasies, from before I got all jaded =\

*edit*
SHUN THE NONBELIEVER! SHUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNUH.

(sorry, couldn't resist)
*/edit*
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:00:58 PM by Dave »

-Dave (aka Nev the Deranged)


Biscuit

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Reply #37 on: July 12, 2011, 10:51:11 PM
Thanks for Scattercat for putting into more literary type words my thoughts about this story. You even included words that were flinging around in my head: "created for the Male Gaze" and "reinforcing patriarchal rites towards female sexuality".

Someone mentioned how "it can't be male gaze-y/reinforcing male gaze tropes because a woman wrote it". Hey, maybe Vaughan had a specific market in mind when she wrote this story, and wanted to write a sexytimes fantasy for men. Women can and do write like that, whether consciously or unconsciously. Women are just as much a construct of a patriarchal system too (I am not arguing for or against Vaughan's politics, I don't know what they are or her motivation for this story).

What I find sad about the commentary here is that we were given a hefty warning about how it could be quite controversial, and a lot of people turned around and said "maybe I'm jaded/I don't see it/it's not that bad". It means our society has made us immune to using women's sexuality in such a way. It's "ok" because its sexytimes as proscribed by a patriarchal society.

People also comment that Elenor became "empowered" by her sexuality, and it made me wonder how this occured? Learning about sexuality does not occur in a vacuum, and Elenor lived in a pretty sheltered vacuum for her sexual formative years. Like someone else said, once she grows up a bit more and learns a bit more about the world/sexuality there will be recriminations and regrets. Even those of us who haven't been whores to unicorn hunters feel like this :)

But Scattercat said it all way better than me. :) I will say it was a well written story, the action flowed beautifully, but my feminist sensibilities felt like it was a story that played on some harmful tropes - harmful to both men and women (women being passive sexual objects; men being unicorns with big horns at the mercy of their libido)


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Reply #38 on: July 13, 2011, 02:42:37 AM
This was possibly the hottest story I have ever heard. My wife came home from work right after I finished listening to it and we had sex up against a dead unicorn immediately. The pacing was perfect, the buildup from grimy beginning to incredibly steamy conclusion so exquisitely timed that I almost didn't notice what was happening until it happened. And then it happened! And then we had sex on a dead unicorn.

Dude, you made me laugh so loud my wife yelled at me.

PS When you are having sex up against a dead unicorn, do you leave the body intact? Does it keep for a few days? I noticed if we chop the head, we just end up in a pile of glitter.

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Reply #39 on: July 16, 2011, 03:08:15 AM
Enjoyed (the mildly-graphic nature of) this story very much. The core moral issue that I felt ultimately pressed to face was: power. Both Duncan and partner eventually were doing what they did primarily for the rush they felt just before and after (I don't think during, they had to concentrate on other things most of the time) their acts of murder.

Killing for sport = not good. Doing something b/c you can = not good. Both of these not necessarily bad, but in this case I would say were. However, in the end it was the bait that slew the beast. Is this not greater power still? Rising above her station? Fourth Wave (j/k... I don't even know what that is/if it is)?

Duncan also notes, by implication, the ultimate power women have over man = the possibility of the poke. Which can of course be used to myriad advantages (while noting that in the society of the story men could probably have what they wanted in this regard... though i would like to point out that the 'way' in which it is had is obviously important for any man not a rapist... well... ahem...).

The story certainly could have offended people at various points, however they don't seem to be posting. I'm offended less frequently than I get a cold.

I felt the final sexual violent scene was (mildly) shocking-->the unicorn had an erect penis, I'm not talking about the thing attached to its head where the mouth for chewing and drinking is. Say it with me class "The unicorn..

I wonder what would have happened if Duncan's bow broke, and then his foot got caught in a tree root or something... please let me know if anyone writes the fan-fiction for this scene with such an ending (matching of course the voice and tone of the story).

How do you gentlemen find these unicorns to have sex up against... it is clear neither you nor your partners are virginal... I wonder if I might... nah...

A 'nullacorn', though I'm LOL at the little one's observation, could also be an empty or otherwise infertile 'acorn'. So I will seek to find a suitable secondary label, that ambiguity might be avoided if necessary, for clarification only.



Spindaddy

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Reply #40 on: July 17, 2011, 02:00:11 AM

How do you gentlemen find these unicorns to have sex up against... it is clear neither you nor your partners are virginal... I wonder if I might... nah...


I tend to go through a lot of virgins.... ;)

I'm not so heartless as Duncan. I set up a free wireless hotspot next to a lake and a beautiful patch of woods. I put in a vending machine that dispenses Doritos, cheese curls, mountain dew and a few other highly caffeinated drinks. This draws in a ton of virginal college gamers. They can't resist the free food and caffeine. With the scent of so many virgins in one place, the unicorns can't help but drop by....

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iamafish

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Reply #41 on: July 17, 2011, 11:40:21 AM
you, sir, are a horrible person... high five!


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Reply #42 on: July 18, 2011, 08:59:29 PM
Ah... if I didn't think feeding people those 'foods' was unethical...



Spindaddy

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Reply #43 on: July 19, 2011, 12:29:42 AM
you, sir, are a horrible person... high five!
*high-five*

I come by it naturally.

Ah... if I didn't think feeding people those 'foods' was unethical...

Um, I'm killing unicorns to have sex on their carcass. I don't really bother with those 'ethics' thingies. To me, morals are mushrooms I'm frying up with my chimera burgers. :D

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iamafish

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Reply #44 on: July 19, 2011, 12:57:04 PM
who are you having sex with on the carcass? the dorito'd up college gamer virgins?

ew


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Reply #45 on: July 20, 2011, 01:17:47 PM
There are two very good novels about a female unicorn with a virginal human male protagonist by Steven Boyett: Ariel and Elegy Beach.   



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Reply #46 on: July 20, 2011, 02:55:17 PM
  Like other people, I was left waiting for the offensive bit all the way up until the music started playing. I didn't even play this one for my wife as I expected there to be horn-rape, or necrophilia, or something that I would find incredibly distasteful since the type of warning on the front-end of this story has previously been reserved for stories about 9/11, but in the end I found it to just be a decent story set in a world with different moral standards than our own.

  Also having sex on the corpse of a dead magical horse is a bit oogy.

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Reply #47 on: July 21, 2011, 02:35:30 PM
It sounds like the English majors have had their poke at the story, and made some interesting points. As for me, I don't know English, but I know what I like. ;)

I liked this story because the characters are compelling. They're not stereotypes, they're not just metaphors; to me they feel like real people, with real concerns, real emotions, and a real story. It's true Duncan buys Eleanor to use as bait, and uses her to kill unicorns... but he takes care of her, watches out for her, seems to respect her in a way, and it feels sincere when he says she's earned her freedom. Is he a bad man who's had a change of heart? Is he a good man with a terrible past, or an obsessive agenda? It's hard to say, but we see his turmoil, some of his hopes and doubts, and he feels very real as he grows through this story.

Eleanor gets less screen time than Duncan, but she feels real too. She's traumatized by her past, but she comes to accept her fate, pick up some skills, and realize that she has a hand in writing her future. If the story had been told from more of a third-person perspective, she could easily be the main character. What awaits her after this narrative - is a happy ending possible, with or without Duncan? I can't say, but she certainly has hopes and dreams, and we want to see how she goes about working towards them.

I also wanted to say that the narration for this episode was incredible! I can't believe more people didn't mention this. A flat reading could have made this story unpalatable given its content, but John Trevillian gave the characters life, breath, emotion, and depth. I could hear Duncan's outward callousness, but inward doubts and fears. I could hear his panic and feel his heart pound when he was desperate to see if Eleanor was wounded. A good narrator helps the story flow and helps you suspend disbelief so you can identify with the characters. A great one makes them come alive and makes them feel real!



NomadicScribe

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Reply #48 on: July 21, 2011, 02:43:31 PM
Personally, I was waiting for the Uberunicorn to say, "I'm the lasht and greatesht of my kind. Inshtead of killin' meh, we ought t' team up, for profit." And then they'd go from village to village, tricking the townspeople into paying Duncan for slaying the wild, rabid unicorn.



Kanasta

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Reply #49 on: July 21, 2011, 05:14:16 PM
I wasn't offended, but then I had just read some fanfic about Severus Snape having an orgy with the Teletubbies.



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Reply #50 on: July 22, 2011, 03:22:31 AM
I wasn't offended, but then I had just read some fanfic about Severus Snape having an orgy with the Teletubbies.

(shakes head)

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danooli

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Reply #51 on: July 22, 2011, 11:28:10 AM
Personally, I was waiting for the Uberunicorn to say, "I'm the lasht and greatesht of my kind. Inshtead of killin' meh, we ought t' team up, for profit." And then they'd go from village to village, tricking the townspeople into paying Duncan for slaying the wild, rabid unicorn.

awesome.   ;D



mbrennan

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Reply #52 on: July 28, 2011, 11:11:37 PM
I'm another one who was expecting unicorn bestiality or something at the end, after being told it would be "shocking."  (Man, the Internet has done bad things to our brains.)  Sex up against a carcass . . . okay, yeah, that's gross, but people have a well-documented tendency to want to get it on right after battle, so, hey.

"Young woman's power lies in her sexuality" is a bothersome trope, but not *shocking*, and I think the treatment of it here was pretty good.  Duncan was into her, but wasn't nearly as creepy about it as he could have been, and I liked that ultimately a) Eleanor turned out to have as much or more of the hunter's drive as he did, and b) she's the one who actually killed the beast in the end, making her more than just bait.

(As for all the gendered connotations inherently built into the setup, what with virginity and long horns and all that -- I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a friend, wherein I suggested that "riding the unicorn" ought to be a euphemism for a woman losing her virginity.)

As for the story more generally, I enjoyed it, though I would have *really* liked more development/explanation of why Duncan was out to kill magic things.  Because I tend to assume I ought to side with the protagonist's perspective unless given reason not to, I figured magic actually was a malevolent, detrimental force in that world, but I don't think we ever got much of an answer, one way or another.



LaShawn

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Reply #53 on: August 26, 2011, 10:08:42 PM
I'm surprised, people. I'm very, very, very surprised. No one saw the shocking part of the story? No one? Really?

It's right there, when Duncan pushes away the young man and tells Eleanor that they're leaving. And they leave. The least they could do, the *least* they could do, was get a doggie bag. I mean, leaving all that food! Are they nuts?

Yes, right. Of course I'm joking. Now here's the serious part: This story, if you think about it, can be easily the Conan story told from the POV of the demons who work with the Ice Princess.

Think about it. Eleanor is sent out to seduce unicorns, big hulking beasts who can easily kill, and lure them to their deaths. How is this different from the Conan story? Mm, actually, many differences. The unicorns aren't trying to have sex with her. They're just submitting to her, becoming tame. Even that last scene with the old unicorn--perhaps the unicorn was aroused by her (man, that's a sentence I hope never to write again), but even there, it's a seduction of wills. What I found disturbing was that both Duncan and Eleanor admitted that they weren't doing it for the wealth. They were doing it for the power they had over the unicorns.

Now, what if that unicorn had been driven to bloodlust, or just plain overall lust--would it be the same story, or something darker? Think about that.

::blithely skips away after resurrecting the whole Conan controversy::


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Reply #54 on: October 27, 2011, 01:37:37 PM
I think this is the third story in the last several where the intro gave me a misconception about the story that didn't really come true.  After Ghosts of New York, I am very inclined to believe the pre-episode warning, but I listened on and I was wincing as I imagined where this could go.  I was figuring it would go one of two places:
1.  At first I figured Duncan might rape the little girl
2.  Later I figured that there would be some unicorn horn rape and I was really hoping that would not happen.
Yeah, the sex on the corpse thing was icky, but not particularly unexpected after the rest of the story.  I found the first slain unicorn to be much more surprising.

Anyway, I liked this story quite well.  Mostly for the very believable characters therein.  And after all that wincing I'm very glad it didn't go to the places I was worried it would go.  I can see the motivations of the two characters for ending up where they ended up.  I don't think their relationship is healthy or that it will last, but no one ever said it had to.  This story is about the single passionate moment they share together, and the rest of their lives is a setpiece for that.

I liked how she ended up being as much of a hunter as him, and even slow me picked up that she was hunting him like the old unicorn, for good or bad.  She's a teenager, with hormones raging, and he's given her a reasonably good life (certainly better than her parents), and she has picked up his predatorial nature.  Whether it's a good message to send about female sexuality or not (I'll let someone else debate that point), I can completely understand why she would want him.  And I can completely understand why he would want her as well.  That's good writing.


As for the story more generally, I enjoyed it, though I would have *really* liked more development/explanation of why Duncan was out to kill magic things.  Because I tend to assume I ought to side with the protagonist's perspective unless given reason not to, I figured magic actually was a malevolent, detrimental force in that world, but I don't think we ever got much of an answer, one way or another.

It seemed to me that Duncan hunted unicorns for the same reason that we hear stories about rich big game hunters in years past who travel to Africa so that they can shoot elephants and the like, and then turn the giant feet into umbrella stands to mark the glories of their hunting days.  I'm not sure I'll ever be in a place where I could experience that drive to kill for fun, but that's where his motivation seemed to be rooted.



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Reply #55 on: October 27, 2011, 04:29:45 PM
Oh, and on the subject of unicorns:



justenjoying

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Reply #56 on: January 09, 2012, 06:13:20 AM
I'm usally not a fan of unicorn stories, but I will make an exception for this one. The beggining made me prepare myself for hating any outcome, but I found that I came to care about the characters so much that the ending was perfect. It was just a love story after all, and it made my heart really get going a few times there.



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Reply #57 on: January 14, 2012, 07:55:12 PM

Hi,

Like seemingly everybody else, I too was waiting for the shocking ending that never arrived.

I really enjoyed this story, I liked the girl, and could even identify with the hunter.

I expected a very different outcome, but I'm not sure how much of that was my imagination on what I would do with the story, or how much it was to do with the intro. I really do wish they would leave the story to itself and not spoil it in the intro.

-Mex



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Reply #58 on: January 16, 2012, 02:15:13 PM

Hi,

Like seemingly everybody else, I too was waiting for the shocking ending that never arrived.

I really enjoyed this story, I liked the girl, and could even identify with the hunter.

I expected a very different outcome, but I'm not sure how much of that was my imagination on what I would do with the story, or how much it was to do with the intro. I really do wish they would leave the story to itself and not spoil it in the intro.

-Mex



On the whole, I agree with you.  But listeners have asked emphatically and repeatedly to be warned about stories they might wish to skip because of their graphic nature.  We simply try to be accommodating to people's wish not to hear stuff they'd rather not hear.  This sometimes gets vaguely spoilery, and that sort of sucks, you're right. 

The situation is not much helped by my complete lack of understanding of movie ratings and the sort of stuff that bothers American audiences.  Mostly Dave takes care of the ratings and warnings and I don't think about them.  It's actually quite a lot of work, trying to pair up an MPAA rating to a text and then trying to give warnings for listeners whose squeamishness encompasses a fairly broad spectrum (that is to say, we've both been gobsmacked by the outrage and heat generated over some of the things we've run that we thought were completely inoffensive and/or appropriate in the context of the story).  If I had to tag the episodes with a rating and come up with warnings, it wouldn't get done.  (Now you know who to blame the next time there's no rating or warning for an episode).  That'd be great for you, perhaps, but not so much for others, who've been quite adamant and vocal in their desire for this feature.

Try skipping the intro, or listen to it at 2x.  It's certainly easier to skip the intro than it is to know what part of a story to fast forward over because it might be triggery or upsetting. 

I can't assert that someone heard our warning and avoided this story and are happier for it, but if they did, it's not too likely they'd show up on the forum to say so (though it does happen from time to time that people thank us for warning them away from a story). 

I'd hesitate to take the consensus of this story's forum thread as representing all or even a majority of listeners.

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Reply #59 on: January 18, 2012, 02:37:32 PM
I can't assert that someone heard our warning and avoided this story and are happier for it, but if they did, it's not too likely they'd show up on the forum to say so (though it does happen from time to time that people thank us for warning them away from a story).  

I'd hesitate to take the consensus of this story's forum thread as representing all or even a majority of listeners.

Yup.  Taking the opinions in this thread as a summary of all listener opinions would be a major sampling error.  If the warning was completely successful, then that means that anyone who would've been offended chose not to listen, and therefore would not be likely to comment at all.  My guess is that, if you hadn't posted the warning, someone would've commented to say that you should've posted one--but there's no way to prove that without inventing a machine to peek into parallel time streams.

I guess my squeamishness threshold is pretty high, though, in general.  I tend to only be bothered by extremes such as pedophilia, cannibalism, genital mutilation.  

...and Ghosts of New York.





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Reply #60 on: January 18, 2012, 02:42:05 PM
I can't assert that someone heard our warning and avoided this story and are happier for it, but if they did, it's not too likely they'd show up on the forum to say so (though it does happen from time to time that people thank us for warning them away from a story).  

I'd hesitate to take the consensus of this story's forum thread as representing all or even a majority of listeners.

Yup.  Taking the opinions in this thread as a summary of all listener opinions would be a major sampling error.  If the warning was completely successful, then that means that anyone who would've been offended chose not to listen, and therefore would not be likely to comment at all.  My guess is that, if you hadn't posted the warning, someone would've commented to say that you should've posted one--but there's no way to prove that without inventing a machine to peek into parallel time streams.

Don't forget, though, the General Internet Negativity Bias. People aren't as likely to comment about things they like, unless they really like it, while they are quite likely to comment about things they don't like, to all levels of not liking from "Eh... not so great actually" to "I couldn't finish it" to "even the title made my barf!"

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Reply #61 on: January 18, 2012, 05:40:22 PM
I can't assert that someone heard our warning and avoided this story and are happier for it, but if they did, it's not too likely they'd show up on the forum to say so (though it does happen from time to time that people thank us for warning them away from a story).  

I'd hesitate to take the consensus of this story's forum thread as representing all or even a majority of listeners.

Yup.  Taking the opinions in this thread as a summary of all listener opinions would be a major sampling error.  If the warning was completely successful, then that means that anyone who would've been offended chose not to listen, and therefore would not be likely to comment at all.  My guess is that, if you hadn't posted the warning, someone would've commented to say that you should've posted one--but there's no way to prove that without inventing a machine to peek into parallel time streams.

Don't forget, though, the General Internet Negativity Bias. People aren't as likely to comment about things they like, unless they really like it, while they are quite likely to comment about things they don't like, to all levels of not liking from "Eh... not so great actually" to "I couldn't finish it" to "even the title made my barf!"

True, true.  But doesn't that suggest the same thing?  If there hadn't been a warning and there had been a small population that would've had a problem with it, they would've been more likely to speak up?