Author Topic: EP300: We go back  (Read 31424 times)

Kaa

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Reply #25 on: July 12, 2011, 02:35:21 PM
I could not possibly have loved this story more, even if it had come to my house and personally cleaned out the cat litter and alphabetized my DVD collection. It's stories like this one that lured me into science fiction (and fantasy and horror) in the first place.

Bravo, Tim Pratt. Brava, Mur Lafferty.

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Reply #26 on: July 12, 2011, 04:08:01 PM
OK the story was well done but the whole motivation of Jenny's friend and the coming out, at a way too young age, angle left a bad taste.

You didn't know whether you were attracted to boys or girls when you were fourteen?

The idea was fine for the story, but I would tend to lean towards it being too early as well.  But, then again, that's been my experience, raised in SmallTown USA.  And it's also my bent that 14 year olds have different things to worry about at that age instead of who you're attracted too.  However, I pine for days gone by, I imagine. :-/

Like everyone else, I really liked how the story ended.  I was only slightly surprised by it, and very pleased with it.  However, it leads me to the next question: So, when do we get the sequel? :-)

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Reply #27 on: July 12, 2011, 04:13:23 PM
And it's also my bent that 14 year olds have different things to worry about at that age instead of who you're attracted too.  

From my memory of being 14, 14 year olds think about little else besides who they're attracted to.   Puberty's in full swing by that time.  If anything, I'd say it's a little early rather than a little too late.  :P



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Reply #28 on: July 12, 2011, 04:19:56 PM
Giving up so much power for a friend who had just taken advantage of me, AND giving them the ring instead of just lending them help...  The teenager mind was one of the most alien I've ever run into on Escape Pod.

I think it's the reason and the circumstances as to why Jenny did it that made Randy change her mind. Jenny is essentially afraid for her LIFE here. She's facing imminent Christian re-education lockup for at least the next four years of her life, and her parents are seeing through all of her boy talk. The girl's terrified. Once you find out that Jenny's not doing this so much to scam someone so much as she needs to figure out how she's going to escape and take care of herself at age 14... well, I'd do what Randy did too.

I knew I was straight at the age of 5, by the way. I didn't even know what to DO with boys, but I knew that. It does start early.

I think it's entirely reasonable that Tim Pratt had a time-travel bracelet to be inspired by that comic...



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Reply #29 on: July 12, 2011, 04:35:16 PM
I seem to be in the minority on this one. For me it was a solid "meh". Nothing much I really hated (but for one thing... don't worry, I'll get to that); certainly had no problem with the whole "lordy I'm queer and my parents will re-orient me!" motivation. Knew what I liked when I was 5, so 14's not too early in my book. And her parents aren't exactly evil. Just really closed-minded; though I see the desire to run.

But I found the gift of the ring to be a little much to swallow, as well as the protagonist's unwillingness to use the ring. I think it's the two together that sort of breaks the story for me. You can't make the case that this ridiculously generous gift is understandable from a teenage girl, but if that's the case, why was she so grown-up about not using the ring in the first place? And if she was grown about the perils of ring-use, then why hand it over to someone demonstrably even more reckless than she is? She has THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE to search through.. hell, multiverse - and she knew the territory. She could conceivably bring her back something just as useful but not as dangerous. A wand of mind control perhaps? "The cute girl I'm bringing home is really a cute boy, Mom and Dad... believe!"

However, the thing that really made me grit was the line about "but I'd help her bury the bodies"... I've simply heard that one times too many. I'm getting really tried of hearing repeated clever lines. I'm tired of repeated cleverness being a passport of Cool. Better to be clever on your own.  Of course, it all may be part of the whole "I'm a 14 year old girl" thing.

Not that I don't do it myself. As Jon Stewart says, "I'm old!"
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 05:02:13 PM by InfiniteMonkey »



matweller

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Reply #30 on: July 12, 2011, 04:45:54 PM
OK the story was well done but the whole motivation of Jenny's friend and the coming out, at a way too young age, angle left a bad taste.
You DO realize that 12-year-old pregnancies are pretty common these days, right? Are all of those preggo tweens not sure which gender attracts them? It's not like it's something to be decided anyway, it's just a fact of their genetic programming present from birth just like it is for every other species of animal on Earth.

I'm a little annoyed that people feel sexuality even has to be discussed since, in the terms of this story, it's only a device not some flagrant, out-of-place soapbox speech.

All that aside, I thought this story was gloriously fun and interesting and well-written and has me totally interested in finding the related tales. Mission accomplished, Mr. Pratt.



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Reply #31 on: July 12, 2011, 11:22:23 PM
It's fantastic that people are discovering their sexuality and who they are at a younger age, and that this gets reflected in YA. "Bored" with lesbian subtexts in YA? Gee, I wish some queer people could be quite so blase about representations of themselves in stories. I forgot where I read it recently, but the quote was along the lines of "if queer people were represented in fiction and media along the lines of our percentage of the population, it would be WAY more than it is now".

While it's still difficult to negotiate the roadblocks our society puts up, if young people have LESS crap to climb over than previous generations in regards to their sexuality, the better. And if that means not hushing up about queer issues when their young (won't someone think of the children!), cool.

I loved how this story flowed.


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Reply #32 on: July 12, 2011, 11:57:31 PM
On any other episode number, not number 300...

I'm afraid I'm with acpracth and InfiniteMonkey on this one.
Certainly Tim Pratt is a talented author (although I confess I am not really so very into him, certainly not as much as many other listeners here seem to be); and the story flowed well enough. But it just wasn't gripping.
Not in the way EP 100 and 200 were.
And not in the way I was hoping EP 300 might be.
I realise the above is really not germane to the story per se, and might just come across as gripe.
I feel most of those who have raised issues with the story per se reflect aspects of what I thought; the exception being the sexuality of the MC. It didn't get in my way one bit.

If I were to nitpick, one particularity that annoyed me was that bracelet at the end: as with the ring, its use and its rather strange marginalization by the MC, the almost consequential 'invention' of a time-travel bracelet threatens with taking the awe out of these artefacts. Hence attempting to focus our attention on...what, precisely? not the MC and her friend, whose interaction isn't really gripping. Anyway, like I said, that's just picking a nit, no more.

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Reply #33 on: July 13, 2011, 04:16:25 AM
So while I was at the book store today, I asked about purchasing The Nex.  Frustratingly, they couldn't find anything for it.  So I came home tonight and investigated it at timpratt.org.  Another "boot to the head" moment occurred when I learned (or was reminded) that The Nex is one of the novels that Tim has serialized for free online (though I am sure he would still take a donation).  So anyway, anyone who is interested in reading The Nex can do so here.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 04:19:32 AM by Swamp »

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Reply #34 on: July 13, 2011, 06:16:56 AM
OK the story was well done but the whole motivation of Jenny's friend and the coming out, at a way too young age, angle left a bad taste.

You didn't know whether you were attracted to boys or girls when you were fourteen?
nope growing up in the 1960's and early 1970's I was nether pressured one way or another. In addition could the problem is we are pushing sexuality on kids way to early for ulterior motives, Ohhow great we boomers are, we just can mess up our own generation.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 06:25:14 AM by Scatcatpdx »



gifo

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Reply #35 on: July 13, 2011, 09:21:53 AM
On any other episode number, not number 300...

I'm afraid I'm with acpracth and InfiniteMonkey on this one.

Me three.

I'm calling shaggy dog on this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaggy_dog_story#Pun).  The moment the "we go back" pun was uncovered, the whole story fell into place as a build-up to it.

I agree with most of the positive feedback on characters, world building etc., but no way is this a X00 milestone story.



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Reply #36 on: July 13, 2011, 01:35:33 PM
I agree with most of the positive feedback on characters, world building etc., but no way is this a X00 milestone story.

x00 is an arbitrary "milestone" anyway. Nothing to me. If this is your main criticism against the story, it's kind of petty (not just gifo, but everybody complaining that this story isn't "good enough" for ep. 300)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:38:41 PM by stePH »

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acpracht

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Reply #37 on: July 13, 2011, 01:54:17 PM
I agree with most of the positive feedback on characters, world building etc., but no way is this a X00 milestone story.

x00 is an arbitrary "milestone" anyway. Nothing to me. If this is your main criticism against the story, it's kind of petty (not just gifo, but everybody complaining that this story isn't "good enough" for ep. 300)
It's not a criticism against the story (please don't take it as such), but against editorial choice. It is not a criticism of the story, just its placement. An X00 story would be arbitrary, yes, except that precedent on Escape Pod hasn't established it as such. The decision has been made to make each of these something "special." If truly arbitrary, why even have Mur bring it up as a milestone and their reason for selecting "We Go Back" ?
Editorial choice and placement is an important factor in putting out any sort of entertainment. You don't put letters to the editor on the front page story of a magazine, do you? No, you lead with your strongest, most appealing story. Think of the X00 stories not only as front page but "Special Edition!" As such, it is not a petty criticism of the venue (not of the individual story).



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Reply #38 on: July 13, 2011, 02:12:55 PM
OK the story was well done but the whole motivation of Jenny's friend and the coming out, at a way too young age, angle left a bad taste.

You didn't know whether you were attracted to boys or girls when you were fourteen?
nope growing up in the 1960's and early 1970's I was nether pressured one way or another. In addition could the problem is we are pushing sexuality on kids way to early for ulterior motives, Ohhow great we boomers are, we just can mess up our own generation.

I guess I don't really understand what you're saying here.  Perhaps because I'm a child of the 80's?  I don't know of any pressure exerted on me to choose a sexual orientation, but I had crushes LONG before I was 14.  I mean, that's pretty well into the swing of puberty when all the hormones have gone completely haywire.  Granted, these crushes are not something I ever really acted on at that age, nor talked to adults about, but I knew damned well my sexual orientation long before that, and I don't think it had anything to do with societal pressure.





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Reply #39 on: July 13, 2011, 02:22:29 PM
I agree with most of the positive feedback on characters, world building etc., but no way is this a X00 milestone story.

x00 is an arbitrary "milestone" anyway. Nothing to me. If this is your main criticism against the story, it's kind of petty (not just gifo, but everybody complaining that this story isn't "good enough" for ep. 300)

Arbitrary, sure.  But no more arbitrary than the US drinking age being 21 revolutions around the sun or teatime being 4pm.

It's not that the story isn't "good enough" for ep 300, but that the round numbers are a good excuse to roll out some classic fiction.  Good does not imply classic, and classic does not imply good.  But it's a good excuse to have a different flavor for an arbitrary landmark, to mix things up.  I was hoping there would be something of an older variety just for this week, like an H.G. Wells or a Heinlein or something.



Andy C

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Reply #40 on: July 13, 2011, 02:24:30 PM
I think I may well be in a minority here in having mixed feelings about this one.

As ever, Mur did a very good job of narrating and she lent the natural credibility to the story that good story tellers seem to be able to do.

The ‘rites of passage’ stuff was generally good. I’d have liked to see more exploration of the theme of Miranda working out her purpose. That’s an intriguing theme and I wanted to see more of M struggle to work this out.The plot seemed a bit shallow, but I can accept that there’s a lot more back story and depth in The Nex.

Some reviewers have balked at the fact that this is a monologue, but I'm okay with that – there’s good and bad reasons to write in first person and this worked okay as a story in that mode.

I also liked the exploration of sexuality, I think this is a rich vein for SciFi stories and I could believe that Jenny and Randy are exploring a relationship together where one is gay and one is straight (I think Randy’s straight?).

What makes me wince is that, yet again we have that old hackneyed theme: the religious, especially Christian, people are the dysfunctional paranoid bad guys. It’s been revisited so many times it’s about as bad as thinking that an alien with eyes on stalks is a radical idea. Apparently they ‘loved Jenny but they loved Jesus more’ – that just seems lame to me.

If you are wondering, yes I am a Christian, but actually the use of these sorts of character offends my literary sensibilities much more than my religious ones. I want to read about complex and subtle characters, even if they are sketched cameo roles. When authors rely on stereotype I am left wishing they’d tried harder.  I am sure Tim Pratt is a very good author, time for him to raise the bar.

Also as I think Gamecrow says ‘the logic falls apart if you tug at the seams a bit’. Well that was true. There’s a stream of mildly unbelievable elements to the whole thing. One or two I could swallow, but all of them? For example:

Randy acquires a powerful ring, this thing has a ‘jump engine’ and there’s only a few of them in the universe. Okay I can just about buy that. 
Then there’s Mum and dad who live in the same house but apart, mum has a boyfriend who seems to either live there or visit a lot, but dad wants mum back?
And Randy decides immediately that she wants to go on adventures after Jenny’s been away for two years, and has deceived her and lied to her. Really?
The FBI has her fingerprints via an adoption. Maybe hmmmm

All of it together is a bit too much to swallow.

I’d like to hear more of Tim’s work but because of these points, and because there didn’t seem to be much of a story really, I’m left feeling a bit dissatisfied. :-\





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Reply #41 on: July 13, 2011, 03:49:57 PM
Andy, think I'm with you on the hackneyed "religious = evil" thing. There are of course times where that's true, but most families I know deal with it lovingly and in a way that does not alienate their children. I think this is the exception rather than the rule (I have no stats to back this up, just anecdote, so take it for what you will).

I acutally enjoyed the recent Hugo nominee that I think was over on StarShipSofa recently - about the Mormon missionary to an alien species. I'm not Mormon, but it was nice to see someone religious be the hero rather than the antagonist.



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Reply #42 on: July 13, 2011, 06:03:18 PM
It's not that the story isn't "good enough" for ep 300, but that the round numbers are a good excuse to roll out some classic fiction.  Good does not imply classic, and classic does not imply good.  But it's a good excuse to have a different flavor for an arbitrary landmark, to mix things up.  I was hoping there would be something of an older variety just for this week, like an H.G. Wells or a Heinlein or something.

That's pretty much where I'm at on this one.
With apologies to Tim Pratt, who otherwise knows his trade well enough.

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Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #43 on: July 13, 2011, 06:58:33 PM
I do find it interesting that the "new" EP team went with a modern story, after the last editor ran two classics for the milestone.  On the other hand, the "new" Podcastle team choose to run a classic recently for no particular milestone, after the old editors ran a modern story for 100.

Actually, Dave and Anna ran that 100th story (which I only know because it was the first story I read for PC after they took over).

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Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #44 on: July 13, 2011, 07:39:16 PM
What makes me wince is that, yet again we have that old hackneyed theme: the religious, especially Christian, people are the dysfunctional paranoid bad guys. It’s been revisited so many times it’s about as bad as thinking that an alien with eyes on stalks is a radical idea. Apparently they ‘loved Jenny but they loved Jesus more’ – that just seems lame to me.

For your sake, I'm genuinely glad that it doesn't match your experience.

The fact is, however, that things like the "It Gets Better" project wouldn't need to exist if there weren't widespread discrimination and abuse (at least mental and emotional, and often physical) of gay teenagers in religious families (not just Christian ones, either, though of course, they're the most common, in the U.S.).

Tim Pratt didn't make up "those camps where they try to cure your gayness" - they genuinely exist, and they exist because people want them - or something that does what they (claim to) do - and do actually pay to use them.

It's a stereotype in stories because it's a reality. And I see stories like that far more in the news than I do in fiction.

Also, thinking back over it, I actually think Pratt did a pretty good job of not making them into one-dimensional 'bad guys'. They were dysfunctional and paranoid, but I got the distinct sense that Jenny's parents would consider that they were doing that stuff for her, out of love for her and fear for her soul, not to her, which is a perspective that a lot of religion-bashers usually don't acknowledge. (It doesn't make those actions any less damaging, of course, but it does change the perpetrators from being seen as 'evil' to 'misguided'.)

Jenny's perspective is the opposite, of course, so when she was describing it, naturally it was A Bad Thing. But Randi's perspective was a little more nuanced, to me at least. Your mileage may vary.

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Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #45 on: July 13, 2011, 07:47:14 PM
I actually enjoyed the recent Hugo nominee that I think was over on StarShipSofa recently - about the Mormon missionary to an alien species.

Ender Wiggin? ;)

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Wilson Fowlie

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Reply #46 on: July 13, 2011, 08:09:01 PM
I rather take exception to all of the people calling the last line of the story a 'pun'. I know puns. I've read some excellent puns (and committed at least one atrocity myself) and that isn't one.

I won't deny that it was wordplay (and, I thought, rather clever at that). But it takes more than that to be a pun.

The essence of a pun is using a word in a place where it means something else but sounds like the word you'd actually use there.  (Okay, that isn't an especially lucid description, but at least it's my own; I didn't crib it from Wikipedia or anything! ;D )

In this case, Pratt took a phrase that has (at least) two distinct meanings (the second of which, by the way, is much more meaningful in a science fictional context!) and told a story that illustrates how both meanings apply to the two girls; one describes the relationship between them and the other refers to their current activities (which, come to think of it, came about because of ... the relationship between them).

And yes, Pratt set the story up to use the last line to demonstrate that he'd done that. So? It gave the idea that much more impact. And for me, at least, that added to the story rather than detracting from it.

If it didn't do that for you, that's fine; it isn't going to work for everyone.

But it isn't a pun.


Edit: Found it! The technical term for that is antanaclasis. Wikipedia calls it a kind of pun, but I don't think it a) always necessarily is nor b) is used that way here.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 08:58:34 PM by Wilson Fowlie »

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Reply #47 on: July 13, 2011, 08:43:04 PM

I acutally enjoyed the recent Hugo nominee that I think was over on StarShipSofa recently - about the Mormon missionary to an alien species. I'm not Mormon, but it was nice to see someone religious be the hero rather than the antagonist.

I enjoyed that myself -- does Escape Pod have any plans on an exchange with this story for the Hugo nominees, or is it in a different weight class?



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Reply #48 on: July 13, 2011, 11:02:32 PM
What can I say, this deserves the highest honor I can think of. I now want to go and find the book! The story was great, even being a short, it was rich and gave me a great recap of the preceding story, with enough vagueness that I now have to seek it out. I loved the relationship between the two main characters, and the payoff at the end, while SLIGHTLY predictable was fun as well, and a great wrap up to the title. BRAVO!   ;D

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Reply #49 on: July 14, 2011, 03:47:14 AM
While I did enjoy this story, I confess I groaned when Jenny reveals that she's gay. I don't have a problem with Jenny being gay, I have a problem with "the smart girl" being gay. Why is it that our society has such a problem with smart girls? It's as if a smart girl is so unattractive to men that we must make her ugly, or shy, or gay. I was rather disappointed to see this kind of thinking pop up here.