Author Topic: EP093: {Now + n, Now - n}  (Read 38106 times)

BlairHippo

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Reply #50 on: February 23, 2007, 05:07:42 PM
I think his big objection wasn't the money but, as he mentioned towards the end, the ever-present connection he had with himselves. I think it would be akin to being estranged from your family or best friends for dating someone.

Nope.  The story could have developed that angle, but it was a tacked-on afterthought.  The driving force behind the plot was that she was preventing him from making money.  Once she returned with all those newspapers from the future and allowed him to both make money and remain within 20 feet of her every hour of every day, the Problem Was Solved and They Lived Happily Ever After.

(Edit:  Please allow me to add that to the litany of complaints about this story.  The plot was that because they were obsessively clinging to each other every hour of every day, he was no longer able to cheat the stock market.  The conflict was resolved when she came up with a way for him to keep cheating while still remaining within a 20-foot radius of her every hour of every day.  Mr. Bunny is right; this guy is a total parasite.  In a just world, the story would end with him getting hit by a bus.  Or -- horrors! -- him being forced to work for a living.)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 05:14:06 PM by BlairHippo »



Thaurismunths

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Reply #51 on: February 23, 2007, 06:49:50 PM
I think his big objection wasn't the money but, as he mentioned towards the end, the ever-present connection he had with himselves. I think it would be akin to being estranged from your family or best friends for dating someone.

Nope.  The story could have developed that angle, but it was a tacked-on afterthought.  The driving force behind the plot was that she was preventing him from making money.  Once she returned with all those newspapers from the future and allowed him to both make money and remain within 20 feet of her every hour of every day, the Problem Was Solved and They Lived Happily Ever After.

(Edit:  Please allow me to add that to the litany of complaints about this story.  The plot was that because they were obsessively clinging to each other every hour of every day, he was no longer able to cheat the stock market.  The conflict was resolved when she came up with a way for him to keep cheating while still remaining within a 20-foot radius of her every hour of every day.  Mr. Bunny is right; this guy is a total parasite.  In a just world, the story would end with him getting hit by a bus.  Or -- horrors! -- him being forced to work for a living.)

I took it that money was his superficial concern, but as he said "Even the company of supreme Selene does not wholly compensate for the loss of the harmoniousness that was Now-n, Now, and Now+n." (49:24"-49:38") it was the loss of his other consciousness that drove him to seek alternate answers. He was a man of means, but after taking a beating on Wall Street he saw his lifestyle being threatened. He panicked and ran, but love caught up with him. I didn't feel that this new motivation was tacked on, but tacked on or not, it is how the character felt because the author said he did.
His all consuming, though immature, passion for Selene is a bit over the top, but I think everyone has been through that. "That" being the time you meet the one girl/guy/llama that you can't live with out, and love makes you do all kinds of stupid things.

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tsanders

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Reply #52 on: February 24, 2007, 08:54:39 PM
I took it that money was his superficial concern, but as he said "Even the company of supreme Selene does not wholly compensate for the loss of the harmoniousness that was Now-n, Now, and Now+n." (49:24"-49:38") it was the loss of his other consciousness that drove him to seek alternate answers. He was a man of means, but after taking a beating on Wall Street he saw his lifestyle being threatened. He panicked and ran, but love caught up with him. I didn't feel that this new motivation was tacked on, but tacked on or not, it is how the character felt because the author said he did.
His all consuming, though immature, passion for Selene is a bit over the top, but I think everyone has been through that. "That" being the time you meet the one girl/guy/llama that you can't live with out, and love makes you do all kinds of stupid things.

Sure I've been through it, but then I turned sixteen and moved on.

Being less flippant, I acknowledge that the "My love is like Romeo and Juliet only raised to the power of INFINITY!" love/crush exists. I just don't buy that somebody who spent years developing mental discipline (the discussion about moving n-1, n+1 from minutes to hours and ultimately to two days) and who spent his life being what amounts to a day trader with an unfair advantage is the sort of person who falls INTO that sort of love. I visualize the character as at least in his 30's/40's and the whirlwind romance and the "Darling I can't even bear to be on the far side of the crosswalk from you" just seems wildly out of character for him.

I still contend that the character talks the talk about missing n-1,n+1 but he doesn't walk the walk. For that matter if that's the crux of the problem what's the resolution? There isn't one. There's a resolution for the problem of how he makes money without future information, but there's nothing for the fact that's he is uncomfortable as a singleton. The story is about the stock market tricks, not a feeling of companionship and brotherhood. And as others have stated more eloquently - the solution for the stock market problem is stupid. Heck they could even sit on other sides of the pool and still SEE each other and be twenty feet apart. They could have been talking on the phone for the one hour a day he needs for the stock market work. The final story resolution is a silly way to fix the stock problem and doesn't even pretend to address the missing his future/past selves.



Thaurismunths

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Reply #53 on: February 24, 2007, 09:21:21 PM
The final story resolution is a silly way to fix the stock problem and doesn't even pretend to address the missing his future/past selves.

I'm not really sure what you mean. I thought that was the point behind him learning how to time shift like she did was the solution? If he could learn to swing thru time like she does, and she wouldn't have to wear the psi-suppressant pendant, then he could be in touch with himselves while being be by her side at all times.
Also, I disagree about this story being about playing the stock market. I think that it's a love story. The hero could just as easily been a cop, reporter, or superhero, so long as the girl and the obstacle were the same.
By the way, I don't think the author chose a great solution, I think it would have been better for him to try and train her to control her power.

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tsanders

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Reply #54 on: February 24, 2007, 10:56:56 PM
The final story resolution is a silly way to fix the stock problem and doesn't even pretend to address the missing his future/past selves.

I'm not really sure what you mean. I thought that was the point behind him learning how to time shift like she did was the solution? If he could learn to swing thru time like she does, and she wouldn't have to wear the psi-suppressant pendant, then he could be in touch with himselves while being be by her side at all times.
Also, I disagree about this story being about playing the stock market. I think that it's a love story. The hero could just as easily been a cop, reporter, or superhero, so long as the girl and the obstacle were the same.
By the way, I don't think the author chose a great solution, I think it would have been better for him to try and train her to control her power.

You're right - there were some references to her giving up the pendant if he could time shift with her. To be truthful, I wasn't listening very carefully by the end because I had already given up on the story. Which is a shame because there was this other concept (which I thought was much more interesting) about why evolution would have given them their psionic gifts and whether they needed to use them. I also sort of discounted this as a solution because her "gift" didn't sound livable to me, and the interactions with his n-1,n+1 thing just seemed nightmarish. (If n jumps two years into the future is n+1 now two years in his past, or does he suddenly contact a n+1 from two years and a two days into the future? If the latter how is that helping? That's not a constant and reassuring presence, that's an infinite number of monkeys blinking in and out of existence.) Her swinging through time seemed erratic and uncontrollablle to me.

As for whether the story was a love story or a story about the stock market - of course it's both and neither ;D I disagree that the hero could be anything - the whole crux of the story was he relied on the cross-time communication for his income and the girl interfered with that. If he was a cop you'd have to explain why his being a cop relied on future communication from n+1. It seemed like the focus was more on the cross-time stock manipulation than the love story to me, which is why I phrased it the way I did. Additionally, maybe I downplay the love story in my mind because it rang false and unbelievable to me.

I do feel strongly that his motivations were driven by his income, not his link to his past/future selves. I agree that this is not entirely in line with what he says, but it is in line with what he does. He's willing to walk away from her in order to preserve his income, and treats the return of communication as a bonus. As soon as she solves the income problem he's happy to stay with her, despite the loss of communication. There's a vague promise of eventually mastering time travel to meet his future/past selves but there's certainly not a neat, closed resolution of that issue. Let me put it this way: it seems to me the story is more about the stock market trickery than it is how he gets the girl and stays in contact with n+1. You could replace the girl with the amulet with something else that he had to keep close and interfered with his power a lot easier than you can replace the stock market elements with details of being a cop.



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Reply #55 on: February 27, 2007, 03:54:16 AM
I wanted to like this clever story, but I really couldn't muster any sympathy for the narrator.  He's filthy rich, he finds the love of his life, and he nearly throws it all away because keeping the girl would mean he'd have to settle for making additional money at a somewhat slower rate?  I don't think the story set him up as beinq quite stupid or compulsive enough to make that kind of choice.  Fortunately, the ending presents a predicament I can better identify with: the frustration of having talents but no opportunity to exercise them.



jeffwik

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Reply #56 on: February 27, 2007, 07:19:20 PM
You know what?  Based on these critiques, I'm changing my mind.  This wasn't a good story.  This was a flawed story that did a surprisingly good job establishing mood.



wakela

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Reply #57 on: February 27, 2007, 11:39:29 PM
Yeah.  I liked the story, as in I enjoyed listening to it and cared about what happened.  But I completely agree with the critiques.  The whole thing rests on something completely implausible.  I guess the quality of writing made up for the gaping plot holes.



Thaurismunths

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Reply #58 on: February 27, 2007, 11:44:17 PM
But I completely agree with the critiques.  The whole thing rests on something completely implausible.

 ???
You know this is SF, right?  ;)

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VBurn

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Reply #59 on: February 28, 2007, 01:43:57 PM
I agree that the problems mentioned are obviously there in the story.  But it is a well told story if you just accept what the characters say and go with it.  Any time you deviate from what is normal (which is my definition of SF) there will be someway to find flaw in it.  If you want this story without the SF, watch Wallstreet

Sorry for the rant, it was not aimed at anybody directly.

PS  Blue Horse Shoe loves Escape Pod.



slic

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Reply #60 on: February 28, 2007, 02:22:25 PM
Not looking to start an arguement, just adding my 2 cents - but I think there is a difference between "deviating from what is normal/knowing it is sci fi" and just having a ridiculous character/event.  No post I read mentioned his power as being ridiculous, just the behaviour of the character.

The key to a great story is internal consistency.  If the author had indicated that it was common for whathisname to act like a dopey teenager when infatuated with a new love, perhaps I would have cut him more slack.  Or if he had just been consistent in whatsshisface's motivation - in one part the char said it wasn't the money but that he missed the warm fuzzy of having his "brothers" around - and then he decides it is the money and as long as he has his newspapers to cheat with, he is fine without them.

I somewhat agree with wakela - it was a fun listen (I thought the future/past voice reverb thingy was excellent), but like a good, trashy movie (Independence Day, Armageddon), the plot holes/ridiculous actions are bigger than Bruce Willis's box office earnings.



wakela

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Reply #61 on: March 01, 2007, 12:01:24 AM
Quote
But I completely agree with the critiques.  The whole thing rests on something completely implausible.
Quote
Huh
You know this is SF, right?  Wink
I meant the relationship was implausible, not the time travel.  Some people liked the stoy, some didn't.  I did, but those that didn't have perfectly valid points.

Though your comment made me realize the following irony.   
Story guy: So I could communicate with myself from the future and myself from the past.
Us: Cool.  Got it.
Story guy:  I instantly fell in love and could not be away from her for a second.
Us: WHA?!  That's crazy talk!

As Slic said, if Silverberg had thrown in two sentences about how Story Guy and Story Girl fromed this ludicrous bond because they were the only two time travellers in the world and there was some kind of subconscious mojo, then he could have sealed that hole.  Or at least painted over it. 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 12:10:08 AM by wakela »



Thaurismunths

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Reply #62 on: March 01, 2007, 02:20:25 AM
Quote
But I completely agree with the critiques.  The whole thing rests on something completely implausible.
Quote
Huh
You know this is SF, right?  Wink
I meant the relationship was implausible, not the time travel.  Some people liked the stoy, some didn't.  I did, but those that didn't have perfectly valid points.

Sorry, meant that to be tongue-in-cheek.

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Wolfger

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Reply #63 on: March 02, 2007, 01:29:15 AM
Hi, everybody! Long time listener, first time poster. I would have to say that this story fell short of "excellent" for me, and was merely "very good". The flaw that downgraded it was not just that the obvious solution (setting aside "away time" every day) wasn't the story's solution, but that the character never even considered (or explained why he dismissed) that tactic until the very end of the story. As a result, I spent much of the story thinking "what an IDIOT this guy is for not seeing such a terribly obvious solution!"
Aside from that, I liked the way time travel was handled in this story. I had no problems with the narration, and the whole "n+1, n-1" concept wasn't confusing for me at all. Keep the good stories coming!



marriott

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Reply #64 on: March 04, 2007, 01:53:04 AM
I loved the premise of this story, but had a few problems with the execution:

1. I was infuriated while listening to this that he couldn't just rent one room of office space and go there every couple days for an hour or so.  He doesn't even need to explain it, just say that he has to go to work and that he has to work alone to be "in the zone" for making his perfect trades.  I was literally pausing the track to yell at my car radio.  Then as an afterthought, this idea is mentioned as part of the tacked-on, said-too-much ending.  Author should have introduced this solution and shot it down for some reason early in the story.

2. Didn't like the pendant.  If people are evolving, why couldn't she just have evolved into a psi-blocker?  Like that kid in the X-man movie.  The woman's ability just seemed corny and unnecessary.

I'd like to add that it is only because this story was otherwise so good that I was angry with these problems. If the story sucked, well, okay it's a suck story.  But I found myself liking this story so much, having invested a lot mentally into this story (for lack of a better term), that the mistakes were a real letdown.



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Reply #65 on: March 05, 2007, 07:35:00 PM
I'd like to add that it is only because this story was otherwise so good that I was angry with these problems. If the story sucked, well, okay it's a suck story.  But I found myself liking this story so much, having invested a lot mentally into this story (for lack of a better term), that the mistakes were a real letdown.

That was exactly my thought. I liked most of the story so much that the problems made me mad.

Also the evolution excuse sounds far too much like intelligent design for me. I can accept fairies before I accept that.



Oblio

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Reply #66 on: March 06, 2007, 08:33:51 PM
I know love is not rational, but I think this story took that to an extreme.  The way Selene attached herself to him, the story was setting up to be a vendetta by some one who knew his secret.  That would have had a lot less holes in it;  were that the direction taken, but as it is it's just a guy who can't get away from a woman for one hour a week, and indirectly makes her lose her stability to be with him.

It just don't add up boss.



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Reply #67 on: March 11, 2007, 04:15:08 AM
I loved this story, but it had a plot hole you could drive a semi through: whaddaya mean he can't get away from her for an hour a day?!



gifo

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Reply #68 on: March 13, 2007, 02:25:38 PM
Just got around to catching up on a month of episoded.

This was an interesting premise built into an AWFUL story [capitalization reconsidered and retained].

Not a plot with a hole, a hole with a plot.

- He could have sat with the Tribune at the other end of the room
- The late hole-patching "I really miss my buddies" is a lame excuse, inconsistent with the story
- He couldn’t part with her for a moment, yet escaped twice around the globe
- HOW did she find his hotels etc? didn’t buy the explanation
- Implausible coincidence that he stumbled on the one psi suppressor in the world
- As a love story, stinks stinks stinks. She's so flawless, they're so happy.
- She's flat flat flat, but probably less than him.
- How did she get all the newspapers in serial order? remember she's a random walker, no control. She would need to find a newspaper stand whenever she landed etc. Implausible she could collect that useful set.
- She loves him so much she throws away the amulet that keeps them together, and without discussion.
- He finds it.
- In the its first appearance, the Amulet Is So Mysterious. meanwhile, Why Is My ESP Failing? I guess Ill have to wait for buddy n+++ to reveal the connection between the two.
- His non-cheating stock losses are so horrible. My dear.
- He couldn’t stand to close the positions for a while - remember, he is the Bill Gates/Warren Buffet of his time.


I could go on... this story requires suspension of common sense on so many levels. really a shock to see such weak plotting from a grandmaster.




Michael

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Reply #69 on: April 11, 2007, 03:13:37 PM
Quote
whaddaya mean he can't get away from her for an hour a day?!

Exactly.  What a cozy life to lead that your toilet is closer than 20 feet to the kitchen or living room?  In the same house I can easily get 40 feet away from my partner without even trying.  At least he could take up gardening!    If the effect of tha amulet took, say, 24 hours to wear off, the plot hole would be fixed. 


Thaurismunths

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Reply #70 on: April 11, 2007, 04:04:01 PM
- HOW did she find his hotels etc? didn’t buy the explanation
Great question.
I get the Bill & Ted "when we get out of here we're going to...." pre-emptivity loop, but for hers to work he would have to run away, she would have to track down where he was, then tell her previous self where he was, so she could track him down. But if she told herself where he was, then she wouldn't have tracked him down in the future. She would have had to cross divergent timelines, not simply slipped head in hers.

Quote
- How did she get all the newspapers in serial order? remember she's a random walker, no control. She would need to find a newspaper stand whenever she landed etc. Implausible she could collect that useful set.
I don't think she's random. I thought she said 'oscillate,' meaning she would skip ahead an hour, back an hour, ahead two hours, back two hours.... ahead a millennia, back a millennia.

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Drakoniis

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Reply #71 on: November 18, 2007, 01:44:26 AM
At first, I kindof worried this would end up being a dry, overly-science not-enough-fiction story, but then I noticed it was by Robert Silverberg and kept listening. The plot seemed transparent at first, the femme-fatale hired by the rival businessman to take down the protagonist, blah blah etc etc. Then, it turned out that wasn't the plot at all, and I was way off. Near the end, when I realized what was actually happening, this story became one of my favourites. I think the ending is perhaps the most important part: two people with powers they cannot use as long as they are together. What ramifications does this have, considering they were born with them, and therefore destined to use them? Could it be that now they are together, they no longer need them, for their mutual goals have been accomplished?

Yet another good Silverberg story, I hope to hear more of his stuff on Escape Pod.



Myrealana

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Reply #72 on: December 24, 2007, 07:27:06 PM
Just got around to catching up on a month of episoded.

This was an interesting premise built into an AWFUL story [capitalization reconsidered and retained].

Not a plot with a hole, a hole with a plot.

- He could have sat with the Tribune at the other end of the room
- The late hole-patching "I really miss my buddies" is a lame excuse, inconsistent with the story
- He couldn’t part with her for a moment, yet escaped twice around the globe
- HOW did she find his hotels etc? didn’t buy the explanation
- Implausible coincidence that he stumbled on the one psi suppressor in the world
- As a love story, stinks stinks stinks. She's so flawless, they're so happy.
- She's flat flat flat, but probably less than him.
- How did she get all the newspapers in serial order? remember she's a random walker, no control. She would need to find a newspaper stand whenever she landed etc. Implausible she could collect that useful set.
- She loves him so much she throws away the amulet that keeps them together, and without discussion.
- He finds it.
- In the its first appearance, the Amulet Is So Mysterious. meanwhile, Why Is My ESP Failing? I guess Ill have to wait for buddy n+++ to reveal the connection between the two.
- His non-cheating stock losses are so horrible. My dear.
- He couldn’t stand to close the positions for a while - remember, he is the Bill Gates/Warren Buffet of his time.


I could go on... this story requires suspension of common sense on so many levels. really a shock to see such weak plotting from a grandmaster.


I whole heartedly agree with everything you've said here.

The plot hole was simply so large, my interest in the story fell into it and cannot be retrieved.

"You don't fix faith. Faith fixes you." - Shepherd Book


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Reply #73 on: September 22, 2010, 04:45:58 PM
I LOVED the premise of this one.  It's one I haven't seen the like of before or after.  And that's about it.

(There are definitely echoes here with other commenters)
1.  Idiot plot is based around him never being able to attain a 20 foot distance.  I don't have any such powers that I know of and I get crabby if I don't get a small patch of alone time every day.  Usually I just get up early to go get my writing and stuff in in the morning while Heather's still asleep.  And I don't think I'm unusual in this trait.
2.  We're supposed to feel sympathy because this filthy rich bastard lost the source of his income.  Just live off the interest, dude!  Or get a friggin job like the rest of us.
3.  I don't buy their falling in love so deeply and with no apparent cause.  If they were teens, sure, but it seemed to go entirely against his personality.
4.  The supposed explanation of how the amulet was a problem not because he'd lose his money but lose his contact with his other selves was too little too late, and conflicted with the entire rest of the story.
5.  If he can learn to duplicate her power, why can't she learn to control hers?  Oscillating in increasing swings across time just plain sounds debilitating.  Sure, controlled time travel could be great, but uncontrolled like that would just be terrible.



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Reply #74 on: November 11, 2010, 09:13:49 PM
Stumbled upon this one by accident. I'm a Silverberg fan, so I gave it a listen. While I agree with all of the plot hole comments, I can't help it...I found myself sympathizing with Selene. At first, I was put off by her clinging. But when she gave the reasons for the amulet, it made sense.

If she had a habit of oscillating uncontrollably through time, then it would make sense that she would be in a rush to do things before she vanished again. Don't know exactly when she got the amulet, but I would think old habits for her die hard--she's probably the sort who rushes to live all her life at once before it vanishes. Hence, her staying up at all hours of the night doing all sorts of things, barely taking time to sleep.

The ending though: really? Really? That's all they could think of?

(And of course, while I write this, I'm getting an IM from my hubby who is technically five feet away from me, separated by a wall. Yes, we both work at the same company. And yes, we IM each other ALL THE TIME. )

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