Author Topic: EP307: Soulmates  (Read 27334 times)

NomadicScribe

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Reply #50 on: September 14, 2011, 09:39:31 PM
What about the Oracle?

The Oracle is Barbara Gordon.



InfiniteMonkey

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Reply #51 on: September 15, 2011, 01:41:59 AM
What about the Oracle?

The Oracle is Barbara Gordon.

Not anymore, as I understand it....



kibitzer

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Reply #52 on: September 15, 2011, 03:38:11 AM
What about the Oracle?

The Oracle is Barbara Gordon.

Not anymore, as I understand it....

What the...? (checks Wikipedia)

(jaw drops)


NomadicScribe

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Reply #53 on: September 15, 2011, 11:11:42 AM
Yeah, yeah, but as anyone else who has been reading comics across four decades (late 80's, 90's, 2000's, 2010's) will know, nothing's more dependable than comics publishers resetting the continuity.

Anyway, does anyone feel like steering the topic back on track to the story, or at least AI?



Mav.Weirdo

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Reply #54 on: September 20, 2011, 08:00:08 AM
Just once, I'd like Resnick to write a story that's so fall-down-funny that I laugh until I cry instead of bypassing "Go" and proceeding directly to lacrimal overflow.

I'd suggest episodes 94 and 108 of the Dunesteef. Two Resnick stories featuring the same character that are likely to have you at least chuckling, and possibly outright guffawing. :)

http://dunesteef.com/2011/03/03/episode-94-catastrophe-baker-and-a-canticle-for-leibowitz-by-mike-resnick/
http://dunesteef.com/2011/08/04/episode-108-catastrophe-baker-and-the-cold-equations-by-mike-resnick/

I think the funniest thing he ever wrote was "His Award-winning Science-Fiction Story" (That's actually the title)



Mav.Weirdo

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Reply #55 on: September 20, 2011, 08:43:26 AM
While I thought Dave was reading a bit to fast in the beginning, once we introduced Moz he hit his stride, and did a good job overall. I am one of those who was crying by the end.

On the subject of "Did Moz 'overcome' his programing?" Clearly what was happening was that Gary was in effect adding new programing to Moz by speaking with him. Gary was not doing this intentionally, or with any plan. Eventually the user (Gary) programing came in conflict with the original programing. Moz ended up resolving contradictory programing himself, in favor of the user programing, without outside intervention. The question of if this constitutes 'overcoming' his programing depends on what you believe his original programing was.



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Reply #56 on: September 20, 2011, 02:21:35 PM
The question of if this constitutes 'overcoming' his programing depends on what you believe his original programing was.

And on your definition of programming, which is where I think I'm differing from others.  His behavior has certainly changed, but to me that's just a result of his flexible programming, not overcoming that programming.  That's true to me regardless of exactly what his original programming was.  If his behavior can change without a new program being written and installed, then that behavior must by definition be the result of the old programming (though exhibiting unprecedented and unforeseen behavior caused by new inputs).





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Reply #57 on: September 20, 2011, 05:11:30 PM
For anyone who isn't sick of the "overcoming programming" discussion:

Consider the human brain.  Compared to many other animals, the human brain has very few inborn instincts, along with some reflexes.  Pretty much everything else has to be taught painstakingly.  We start with no knowledge whatsoever, only those few instincts and reflexes, along with sensory inputs and the wetware to learn how to interpret them.  For me, the brain is analogous to the programming, it's the system that we use to take that sensory input and create a meaningful world out of it.  Everyone's is somewhat different, but also basically the same.

A human is not born knowing how to play the piano, nor does a newborn understand the concept of a piano, or even the concept of music or fine motor control.  Many adults don't even know how to play the piano (including me).  It's something you have to learn to do, but I would say that most CAN learn to do it to some basic level of skill, if they were trained.  If someone learns to play the piano, does it mean that they have "overcome their brain"  to learn to do so?  Not really.  Although their brain does not come hardwired with the ability to play piano, the brain is versatile enough to be used in that way.  So it's not that the person overcame their brain, it's that their brain allows them to perform a variety of actions that are not hardwired, and this is one of those. 

The same goes for programming.  Moz's programming was not hardwired to make him behave as he did, but his programming was written in a way to allow a great deal of flexibility of learning and interpretation.  So he is making good use of a versatile program, not overcoming his programming.  :)



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Reply #58 on: September 21, 2011, 09:32:10 AM
At which point you bump up against the duality argument, which many people hold in high esteem, to whit: there is more to being a human than the brain, and thus when the soul/mind/whatever acts, it can override the physical part of human nature and transcend mere brute existence.  Thus, because Moz is not so much a robot as a very poorly educated human (at least that's how he acts), people instinctively think of him as "overcoming his programming" just as they might think of a human "overcoming their brain" in the event that they, I dunno, cured their own schizophrenia or alcoholism or whatever.

Which means you're heading into an unwinnable argument, unless you want to try and disprove the existence of the soul here on a forum post about a Mike Resnick story.  ;-)  (Not that anyone is that angry about this discussion.)



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Reply #59 on: September 21, 2011, 01:43:02 PM
At which point you bump up against the duality argument, which many people hold in high esteem, to whit: there is more to being a human than the brain, and thus when the soul/mind/whatever acts, it can override the physical part of human nature and transcend mere brute existence.  Thus, because Moz is not so much a robot as a very poorly educated human (at least that's how he acts), people instinctively think of him as "overcoming his programming" just as they might think of a human "overcoming their brain" in the event that they, I dunno, cured their own schizophrenia or alcoholism or whatever.

Which means you're heading into an unwinnable argument, unless you want to try and disprove the existence of the soul here on a forum post about a Mike Resnick story.  ;-)  (Not that anyone is that angry about this discussion.)

I wouldn't dream of trying to disprove souls, as I don't disbelieve in them myself.  It's pretty clear to me from the effects of mind-altering drugs (including the legal kinds like anti-depressants, alcohol, nicotine, others) that at least while we're attached to these flesh bodies, our minds are based in that squishy gray organ up there.  If something of me will live on after I die, then at that point I would certainly have overcome my fleshy bonds.

But I see your point.  I guess if one believed in reaching a transcendental mental state, reaching nirvana, than one could argue that Moz has done the same.  In another story I might buy that as being a theme, but to me, that doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of this story.  Moz was designed to have a flexible mind to serve his function, and although I think the degree of his flexibility was a bit unnecessary for an assembly line troubleshooter, I still see his adaptability as being with the design of his programming, not counter to it.  :)



birdless

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Reply #60 on: September 28, 2011, 05:23:04 PM
I still see his adaptability as being with the design of his programming, not counter to it.  :)
FWIW, I agree that the adaptability is a function of his programming, but I feel like he exceeded the expectations of his programming, not acted counter to it.



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Reply #61 on: September 29, 2011, 01:41:31 PM
I still see his adaptability as being with the design of his programming, not counter to it.  :)
FWIW, I agree that the adaptability is a function of his programming, but I feel like he exceeded the expectations of his programming, not acted counter to it.

Fair enough.  :)



CryptoMe

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Reply #62 on: October 01, 2011, 04:51:54 AM
I liked this story. It was nice. It was fun.

But it had one big flaw: I can't believe that a large warehouse wouldn't have emergency lighting specifically for power outages. Isn't that part of industrial building codes or something?

It didn't ruin the story for me, but it was very difficult to ignore.



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Reply #63 on: October 03, 2011, 01:40:12 PM
But it had one big flaw: I can't believe that a large warehouse wouldn't have emergency lighting specifically for power outages. Isn't that part of industrial building codes or something?

That's a fair point.  Yes, I would think that would be a requirement.  Even when I lived in an apartment building the hallways had battery backup lighting, and it would be much more vital in a situation where one is surrounded by dangerous machinery.  Maybe it malfunctioned??  But if it's designed well there should be redundant backups, and apparently there weren't if that was the case.



Thomas

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Reply #64 on: October 03, 2011, 03:56:21 PM
But it had one big flaw: I can't believe that a large warehouse wouldn't have emergency lighting specifically for power outages. Isn't that part of industrial building codes or something?

Lights in a factory operated by robots? do they really need lighting? For security, maybe... but necessary for operation or safety in a part of the facility primarily used by robots?

but i agree, an oversight on the part of the author, but then, wouldn't security have flashlights?

Enjoy and be nice to each other, because "WE" is all we got.


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Reply #65 on: October 03, 2011, 04:21:43 PM
Lights in a factory operated by robots? do they really need lighting? For security, maybe... but necessary for operation or safety in a part of the facility primarily used by robots?

It depends on what kind of sensors the robots had.  If the robots rely primarily on optical sensors for situational awareness, then emergency lighting might matter for them to be able to navigate.



Thomas

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Reply #66 on: October 03, 2011, 09:32:25 PM

It depends on what kind of sensors the robots had.  If the robots rely primarily on optical sensors for situational awareness, then emergency lighting might matter for them to be able to navigate.

didn't Mose operate independent of lighting?
which electromagnetic wave length would be the cheapest for the robots to operate under??

now we are nitpicking ....

Enjoy and be nice to each other, because "WE" is all we got.


CryptoMe

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Reply #67 on: October 04, 2011, 01:39:33 AM
But it had one big flaw: I can't believe that a large warehouse wouldn't have emergency lighting specifically for power outages. Isn't that part of industrial building codes or something?

Lights in a factory operated by robots? do they really need lighting? For security, maybe... but necessary for operation or safety in a part of the facility primarily used by robots?

but i agree, an oversight on the part of the author, but then, wouldn't security have flashlights?

A part of the factory where the maintenance robot is not allowed to go? Yes, that would certainly need back-up lighting so that the humans, who would have to go fix things in case of an emergency, would be able to see.



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Reply #68 on: October 04, 2011, 02:15:17 PM

It depends on what kind of sensors the robots had.  If the robots rely primarily on optical sensors for situational awareness, then emergency lighting might matter for them to be able to navigate.

didn't Mose operate independent of lighting?
which electromagnetic wave length would be the cheapest for the robots to operate under??

now we are nitpicking ....

Less nitpicking, more overanalyzing.  (How about that, I nitpicked the nitpicking!)

I would think the cheapest would be visible light because there are lots of cheap commercial bulbs available, plus it doubles as being useful for the humans as well. 

Okay, I don't need to keep going.  But I'm having fun.  :)



FireTurtle

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Reply #69 on: October 06, 2011, 01:47:57 AM
It was a fun little story. If you like Socratic arguments. If you don't examine the "plot" with a magnifyin glass. If you like being led like a sheep to an emotional conclusion.
Argh. I want to like it. I liked Asimov. IIRC there was more plot there in I, Robot. But, it was a book, not a short story.
My biggest, banging fist against steering wheel causing beef: since when does alcohol withdrawal make you philosophical and hungry? Just to be clear: it makes you ape-sh*t crazy nuts and sometimes you have seizures. Just saying, I found myself wondering if Moz had magical properties to cure physiologicL dependence because THAT my friends, is biological programming.

“My imagination makes me human and makes me a fool; it gives me all the world and exiles me from it.”
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Gamercow

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Reply #70 on: October 11, 2011, 08:31:43 PM

Argh. I want to like it. I liked Asimov. IIRC there was more plot there in I, Robot. But, it was a book, not a short story.


Common mistake.  I, Robot was a novel-sized collection of unrelated short stories about robots.  And a steaming turd of celluloid movie was ostensibly made from one of those 9 short stories.

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FireTurtle

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Reply #71 on: October 11, 2011, 09:34:27 PM

Argh. I want to like it. I liked Asimov. IIRC there was more plot there in I, Robot. But, it was a book, not a short story.


Common mistake.  I, Robot was a novel-sized collection of unrelated short stories about robots.  And a steaming turd of celluloid movie was ostensibly made from one of those 9 short stories.

I stand corrected. It's been a while.... And please, don't mention the Moving Picture of the same name...*shudders*

“My imagination makes me human and makes me a fool; it gives me all the world and exiles me from it.”
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Thomas

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Reply #72 on: October 12, 2011, 02:32:14 AM

 I, Robot was a novel-sized collection of unrelated short stories about robots.

Check again, the stories were related. first it was about trouble shooting unforeseen glitches in the three laws of robotics and moved into the evolution of AI and how it controlled humanity through direct and indirect manipulation of human frailties and prejudices. amongst other things.

Enjoy and be nice to each other, because "WE" is all we got.


HexD

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Reply #73 on: October 17, 2011, 05:41:44 AM
Once again, Resnick nails it. Love the story. Touching without being overly sentimental or sappy.



Gamercow

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Reply #74 on: October 17, 2011, 02:18:34 PM

 I, Robot was a novel-sized collection of unrelated short stories about robots.

Check again, the stories were related. first it was about trouble shooting unforeseen glitches in the three laws of robotics and moved into the evolution of AI and how it controlled humanity through direct and indirect manipulation of human frailties and prejudices. amongst other things.

I guess I meant to say that the short stories when they were originally written were not specifically related to each other, as they were written over many years.  They were related in the sense you mention above, they were all robot stories by Asimov.

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