EP330: The Ghost of a Girl Who Never Lived

[El Barto]

I got the distinct impression that not-Sara had not "lived" at all; she was unconscious until they uploaded Sara's memories, and it was only the error in the transcription process that let her 'wake up' at all.  She has no memories of her own; her life started when they brought her awake on the table, with scattered fragments of Sara's memories - incomplete and "unreal" to not-Sara - in her mind.

I loved this story but had the same impression, which had me wondering why notSara was so fixated on this idea of not being Sara when in fact she was Sara -- just an incomplete version suffering from a form of amnesia.  Everything about notSara was derived from Sara, unless the clones somehow had their own experiences and existences before being wiped each time, which would be horrible.   But I didn't get the impression that notSara had any experience or consciousness before waking up during the aborted procedure.

(By the way, I would speculate that I suspect that if such a thing happens again in that world, they would likely tell the half-cooked clone that they were in a bad accident, had amnesia, and it would be fixed soon.)

The real question I wonder about is when they finally upload the rest of Sara's memories, does that necessarily destroy all of the memories of her week without them?  Or will they just be added to her mental filing cabinet?  If just added to the filing cabinet, she really isn't dying at all, so no need to be sad.   

Along those lines, she might be the first person this happened to, so there might be uncertainty about which way it would go, but this should be easy to test on animals.  Clone a dog and wake him up halfway through just like with notSara.  Then, ring a bell and give him a steak.  Do that ten times until the bell ringing causes him to salivate.  Then, finish the upload and ring the bell -- if he salivates, the new memories coming in likely don't destroy the memories of the intervening week.

On the flashback at the end, that confused me as well - I had no idea it was supposed to be in the past, and wish we can come up with some way for narrators to indicate something to alert us when that is happening.

Lastly, related to narrators, I thought Mur's reading was perfect for this story - she does a fantastic teenage girl -- almost as if she had once been one -- but I very often finding myself wondering why Mur does so many of the narrations herself when there are (presumably) so many great narrators and voice actors who would like to narrate the stories here?  I find Mur's voice and style to be so distinctive that I often have a hard time separating her as "Mur" from her as narrator -- and I almost always prefer to hear someone other than Mur read the stories because that lets me concentrate much more on the story than the narrator.   

It's kind of like seeing the same actor in five different movies in a year.  It makes it hard to see them as their character as opposed to them as the famous actor.   (I'm looking at you Denzel Washington and Paul Giamatti.)

All in all an excellent story.

[Scattercat]

I got the distinct impression that not-Sara had not "lived" at all; she was unconscious until they uploaded Sara's memories, and it was only the error in the transcription process that let her 'wake up' at all.  She has no memories of her own; her life started when they brought her awake on the table, with scattered fragments of Sara's memories - incomplete and "unreal" to not-Sara - in her mind.

I loved this story but had the same impression, which had me wondering why notSara was so fixated on this idea of not being Sara when in fact she was Sara -- just an incomplete version suffering from a form of amnesia. 

Consciousness is a funny little bug.  Based on my reading in popularly available neuroscience books, the story's premise actually makes perfect sense; there are several disorders that can arise when your sense of "self" breaks down somewhere.  People will declare themselves "dead" and insist that they can feel and smell themselves rotting, and confronting them with the fact that they are talking doesn't do anything to break the illusion.  People "lose" parts of their body, insisting that the leg attached to them is not theirs, but belongs to their brother, or the doctor, or is a "dead" leg put into their bed as a terrible prank.  I can very readily see a failed memory transfer resulting in memories clearly labeled (to the brain's perceptions) as both "Sara's memory" and "not-my memory," leading to the basic consciousness-level conclusion, "I am not Sara," and thus the cloned girl's evidenced confusion in the story.

[Unblinking]

I got the distinct impression that not-Sara had not "lived" at all; she was unconscious until they uploaded Sara's memories, and it was only the error in the transcription process that let her 'wake up' at all.  She has no memories of her own; her life started when they brought her awake on the table, with scattered fragments of Sara's memories - incomplete and "unreal" to not-Sara - in her mind.

I loved this story but had the same impression, which had me wondering why notSara was so fixated on this idea of not being Sara when in fact she was Sara -- just an incomplete version suffering from a form of amnesia. 

Consciousness is a funny little bug.  Based on my reading in popularly available neuroscience books, the story's premise actually makes perfect sense; there are several disorders that can arise when your sense of "self" breaks down somewhere.  People will declare themselves "dead" and insist that they can feel and smell themselves rotting, and confronting them with the fact that they are talking doesn't do anything to break the illusion.  People "lose" parts of their body, insisting that the leg attached to them is not theirs, but belongs to their brother, or the doctor, or is a "dead" leg put into their bed as a terrible prank.  I can very readily see a failed memory transfer resulting in memories clearly labeled (to the brain's perceptions) as both "Sara's memory" and "not-my memory," leading to the basic consciousness-level conclusion, "I am not Sara," and thus the cloned girl's evidenced confusion in the story.

Another similar thing:  There is a part of the brain that keeps track of self-location.  If that part of the brain is damaged, then your sense of your own body location can shift so that you sense your own body as a different individual, and don't recognize it as yourself.  If I remember correctly, this may be where the myths of Doppelgangers came from.

So this shift in perception of self seems entirely plausible to me. 

I loved this story but had the same impression, which had me wondering why notSara was so fixated on this idea of not being Sara when in fact she was Sara -- just an incomplete version suffering from a form of amnesia.  Everything about notSara was derived from Sara, unless the clones somehow had their own experiences and existences before being wiped each time, which would be horrible.   But I didn't get the impression that notSara had any experience or consciousness before waking up during the aborted procedure.

I think that was the company's stance on the subject, and I don't think it's an unreasonable stance, but to me it seems to be a stance that isn't very empathetic to the girl who woke up at the beginning of the story.  It raises very interesting questions of identity--she has basically suffered brain damage, but in a way which leaves her mentally and physically functional.  She can live a normal life if she were allowed to live.  So it's a question of whether this is something that ought to be "fixed" at all, when "fixing" it means removing this person who feels she is not Sara and replacing her with someone who thinks she is Sara.

[childoftyranny]

As for commenting on the story, I definitely enjoyed it, yet I felt that the moving about in time was difficult follow. It was clear that things were happening in different times but the momentary disconnect was troubling for a few moments. It could be a ploy to help the listener feel the feeling that must have been running through Not-Sarah's mind, but I suspect its just one of those conversion quirks.

Reading the comments raised a few different questions in my mind, the first being if our defining and understanding of tropes is actually a good idea. When a story might be effected negatively simply because the plot devices are common is that entirely fair to a story or even a genre? Another thing that popped into my mind is how this is different from the ending of AI where the alien/robots bring back the mother for only a short period of time. Its always seemed like a semi-cruel idea to me, even if it was supposed to be heart warming, and now we're presented with the question of what if it was extended. How effectively can people pretend that the person didn't die. Its a lot like someone disappearing for 5 years and then returning, things will not be the same no matter how much people pretend it isn't.

[Unblinking]

Reading the comments raised a few different questions in my mind, the first being if our defining and understanding of tropes is actually a good idea. When a story might be effected negatively simply because the plot devices are common is that entirely fair to a story or even a genre? Another thing that popped into my mind is how this is different from the ending of AI where the alien/robots bring back the mother for only a short period of time. Its always seemed like a semi-cruel idea to me, even if it was supposed to be heart warming, and now we're presented with the question of what if it was extended. How effectively can people pretend that the person didn't die. Its a lot like someone disappearing for 5 years and then returning, things will not be the same no matter how much people pretend it isn't.

I think it's fine to define tropes because they happen so commonly, because many tend to come up independently from different writers even if those writers haven't read each others stuff.  For instance, a science fiction story that ends up with a man and a woman stranded on a planet, and it turns out they're Adam and Eve.  I'm sure when that was first used in a story it was a really amazing twist.  But it's been done many times with variations that that alone is no longer all that compelling to anyone who has read much SF.  That's not to say that a story with that couldn't succeed, but it would have to have much more going for it in other areas to make up for something that has been seen so commonly. 

At the same time, although I think there are some things that one should be aware of when writing so as not to write a story a bajillion other people have already written, I do sometimes think that some people jump too quickly to the shout of "cliche!".  Stories have been around so long it's hard to write anything that's purely original.  That's not the point.  It just has to be compelling to someone.

My two cents. 

[Gamercow]

At the same time, although I think there are some things that one should be aware of when writing so as not to write a story a bajillion other people have already written, I do sometimes think that some people jump too quickly to the shout of "cliche!".  Stories have been around so long it's hard to write anything that's purely original.  That's not the point.  It just has to be compelling to someone.

My two cents. 

This is the problem I have with TV Tropes, and those who fit everything in every story on to a category on that site. People that do this often are too busy looking for tropes to realize the subtle ways in which the story deviates from those tropes. In extreme cases, they miss the whole story thinking about how it would categorize on TV Tropes.

[Unblinking]

At the same time, although I think there are some things that one should be aware of when writing so as not to write a story a bajillion other people have already written, I do sometimes think that some people jump too quickly to the shout of "cliche!".  Stories have been around so long it's hard to write anything that's purely original.  That's not the point.  It just has to be compelling to someone.

My two cents. 

This is the problem I have with TV Tropes, and those who fit everything in every story on to a category on that site. People that do this often are too busy looking for tropes to realize the subtle ways in which the story deviates from those tropes. In extreme cases, they miss the whole story thinking about how it would categorize on TV Tropes.

For those people, "Find the Trope" has become entertainment in itself, like some kind of sarcastic scavenger hunt.  Yeah, that is annoying, but I think you just have to ignore them.  They're finding entertainment that suits them, but I'd rather try to enjoy the story itself.

[LaShawn]

I think the comments sum up what I've felt for the story, so all I'm going to add is, wow great story!

[Keffy]

Casting REVIVE! on this very old thread about my story to thank everyone for commenting and to share some exciting (well, I'M excited) news about the story.

A little while after the episode went up, I was contacted by an independent film producer who was interested in turning The Ghost of a Girl Who Never Lived into a short film. Fast forward to this year and it's actually happening!

Cast list with photos: http://waterlooprod.com/2013/04/25/our-cast-for-the-ghost-of-a-girl-who-never-lived/

Photo from the set: https://twitter.com/Dratz/status/333701762810781696/photo/1

[Talia]

That's awesome, congrats. Looking forward to seeing it.

[Dem]

Casting REVIVE! on this very old thread about my story to thank everyone for commenting and to share some exciting (well, I'M excited) news about the story.

A little while after the episode went up, I was contacted by an independent film producer who was interested in turning The Ghost of a Girl Who Never Lived into a short film. Fast forward to this year and it's actually happening!

Cast list with photos: http://waterlooprod.com/2013/04/25/our-cast-for-the-ghost-of-a-girl-who-never-lived/

Photo from the set: https://twitter.com/Dratz/status/333701762810781696/photo/1

I wondered what the racket was - you jumping around squawking and waving film contracts about! Well how fab is that? Go you!

[Fenrix]

Cooooool. This story was one of my faves from last year. Keep us updated here on the status of the filming.

[Unblinking]

I put this as #28 on my Best Podcast Fiction of All Time list:
http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2014/06/the-best-podcast-fiction-of-all-time-21-30/