EP343: The Cartographer Wasps and the Anarchist Bees

[Coolbreeze44105]

This story was good. I'm glad that the author ended it the way she did. I was also glad that the narrator was a female voice. It made the story more enjoyable for me.
 

[schizoTypal]

Anyway back to more important matters: what kind of sushi do you like the most? I'm more partial to the fried eel myself...

I love eel. No matter what other rolls I order, Las Vegas, Alaska, Rainbow, I always get a Dragon. And usually a couple of Unagi Nigiri, too.

But, we really should try to keep this on-topic. So, what if this story was told from the points of view of some oceanographer salmon who come across a faction of suicidal eels who believe they should all sacrifice themselves for the greater Unagi good? Would it be a parallel of the way our society treats... ok I have no idea where I'm going with this. But, hey, I tried.

In the interest of remaining on the topic ... I also love unagi.

[friendOfAgnes]

A little late to posting, but I wanted to chime in that I loved this story (enough to compel me to make my first comment on the forums).  I may be largely biased here, being an entomologist myself, but, nevertheless, I thought it was great.  I can see where the narrative itself was a little undirected, but to me the world-building was so wonderful that I don't really care.
I would disagree with interpreting this story as heavily allegorical, and I instead saw it as exploring what insect social systems (which are very different from our own) would look like if we started adding on a higher level of intelligence and culture.  It strongly brought to mind Ursula K. LeGuin's "The Author of the Acacia Seeds" but with a stronger scientific grounding and more developed narrative.  While many parts of the story are clearly fictional (i.e. wasps creating maps we can use), the social structures and many other aspects have a quite sound basis in actual studies of social insects.  Most importantly, that this includes that there are conditions under which workers will lay their own eggs (only male due to the sex determination system of bees and wasps), and related hypotheses that evolution of genetic inhibition of reproduction was a key step in the emergence of social insect.  Where one gene evolved, a mutation could easily shut it down, thus producing the anarchist bees seen here.
Finally, for anyone who thinks the anarchist bees have failed, I would disagree because (as the ending hints) the genes are still out there, and since they can read the notes of their predecessors, they'll do better next time.

So, I think this story completely deserved its nomination for a Hugo award (although all the other nominees I've read were also awesome, so I'm really not sure who I think should win).

[schizoTypal]

A little late to posting, but I wanted to chime in that I loved this story (enough to compel me to make my first comment on the forums).  I may be largely biased here, being an entomologist myself, but, nevertheless, I thought it was great.  I can see where the narrative itself was a little undirected, but to me the world-building was so wonderful that I don't really care.
I would disagree with interpreting this story as heavily allegorical, and I instead saw it as exploring what insect social systems (which are very different from our own) would look like if we started adding on a higher level of intelligence and culture.  It strongly brought to mind Ursula K. LeGuin's "The Author of the Acacia Seeds" but with a stronger scientific grounding and more developed narrative.  While many parts of the story are clearly fictional (i.e. wasps creating maps we can use), the social structures and many other aspects have a quite sound basis in actual studies of social insects.  Most importantly, that this includes that there are conditions under which workers will lay their own eggs (only male due to the sex determination system of bees and wasps), and related hypotheses that evolution of genetic inhibition of reproduction was a key step in the emergence of social insect.  Where one gene evolved, a mutation could easily shut it down, thus producing the anarchist bees seen here.
Finally, for anyone who thinks the anarchist bees have failed, I would disagree because (as the ending hints) the genes are still out there, and since they can read the notes of their predecessors, they'll do better next time.

So, I think this story completely deserved its nomination for a Hugo award (although all the other nominees I've read were also awesome, so I'm really not sure who I think should win).

That was another side that I definitely did see, beyond the allegory. Bees and Wasps as intelligent, speaking creatures with agendas and plans.

[CryptoMe]

I too liked this story. I didn't see the problems some other posters did, in terms of too allegorical, dense, or boring. Like friendOfAgnes, I found this an intriguing glimpse into what a more highly evolved hive society might look like. Very neat, I thought.

[LaShawn]

OH YAYYYYYYY!!!! THIS STORY IS HERE!!!!

Sorry. I'm just now getting around to listening to it. When I read it at Clarkesworld, it BLEW MY MIND. So I don't care what the comments say, LALALA ENJOYING THIS STORY I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

But I still love all of you. Really I do.

(edit) and I also like sushi...

[Feegle]

Toss in another vote for loving this story.  I didn't see it as an analogy until the anarchist bees came along - then I was thinking of the Wasps as the Europeans, the Bees as Chinese, and the Anarchist Bees as Maoists.

Still, a neat story in its own right, if not with the most upbeat ending.  I felt like the story of the Bees was just getting going... and then there was a rather abrupt ending.

Still, beautifully crafted from a language point of view.

[Balu]

Well it wasn't science fiction, but so what? It was awesome.

Today I finally figured out the way to wonder this question. Why isn't sociology and psychology as well as political science, which this story fits, sci-fi? We ought we limit our horizons as to what sci-fi out to explore to the so called hard sciences?

Not a direct comment just your thoughts and this story finally cemented that question for me.

That is a good point.  I suppose the hard science element is traditionally a marker of sci-fi, but in some of the best works it is incidental to the other 'ologies (I'm thinking Brave New World in particular)

[hronir]

The prose and imagery, especially relating to the hives, wax and the delicate map making, was gorgeous. I definitely did not find this dense or boring; it was  fresh, eloquent and elegant (great reading too Mur!).

I do not think that it has to be an exact reflection of our socio-political history in order to work as a meditative comment about imperialism, colonialism, anarchism, totalitarianism, communism etc. I actually liked it more this way than if it was a direct allegorical analogue as it gave us more license for meandering thought.

I loved the chemical specialists in the hive drawing up the treaty in phermones! Detail such as this made me smile. As friendOfAgnes says, the scientific grounding was great- I'm not an entomologist but, studying and working in a physiology department, I have attended a number of seminars and paper sessions relating to insect genetics, "dancing" behaviours and reproduction and find this all very interesting. For such comparatively simple creatures, these insects exhibit some extraordinary and fascinating behaviours and are such a worthwhile area of study- not just for naturalists, behaviourists and physiologists but for physicists and those studying military structure, politics and social theory. Great work Ms Yu! This was a well deserved nomination

[Myrealana]

I am severly apiphobic, though that may not even be the right word, since it's not confined to merely bees. Anything that's black and yellow or orange and buzzes sets my skin to crawling. If I get dive-bombed by a honeybee on its way to a flower, I sometimes lose complete control and run screaming like a little girl. It's so bad, I can't walk under crabapple trees, or have any flowers in my yard. Even pictures of bees make my stomach tighten and my fingers feel weak.

With all of that said, I loved this story. The descriptions were so lyrical and the bee and wasp cultures so intriguing that I forgot to think of them as bees and just fell into it.

Sometimes, I listen to the Hugo nominees and think "I wrote better stories than this in high school. Who thought this was worth honoring?" Other times, a story comes along that is breathtakingly different and so well crafted I know I could only hope to aspire to its level. This is one of the latter.

Well done, Ms. Yu.

[Puck]

I loved this story when it first was podcast on Clarkesworld, but I have to admit I wasn't as fond of it this time around.  Unfortunately, I feel that this was due to the narration.  While I usually love listening to Mur narrate stories for some reason I feel her timing and vocalization was just off.  It tended to pull me out of the story and made me very "aware" of the narrator.  Not that Kate Baker hits it right all the time either, but this is a good example (to me at least) how a narration can make or break a story.

[LaShawn]

Okay, posting my thoughts on it after listening to it and Movement several times. (If you don't want to read me rambling, feel free to skip. I'm trying to make up my mind which one to vote for.)


I found the two stories mirror each other. Both deal with change and timescale. Movement is slowed down into the space between pauses, and the narrator must struggle to live within her parents time differential. It takes place in the space of two days.  I emotionally connected more with Movement because it is a study in character. And I felt strongly for the narrator. Feeling the universe move beneath my hands. I like how the narrator ties in elements of evolution with change, and what she sees and does ties into it all: glass, bug zappers, venus flytraps, ballet, the evolved internet, and her own circumstances. This is a contemplative story that is very strong. I think I would vote for this story if it wasn't for Wasps.

Wasps and Bees take place over several insect lifetimes. I thought the story had a detached state that made me hard to connect to, because there were so many characters. but not one individual was meant to be the star. It's all the wasps as a protagonist, bees the antagonists. They're all one collective whole character. In reading again, I was rooting for the bees. You have the rise and fall of regimes, the use of story and history passed on to the next generation, learning from their ancestors, using that knowledge to change themselves. The anarchist bees' deaths are tragic, but their legacy will carry on. And those dictating wasps find themselves suddenly the pawns of a higher power who will use them--and they can't even comprehend they're being used.

The delicate use of words in this story: a stinger sent back in a paper envelope. The use of pheremones to describe the treaty. The anarchists bees pressing down the last vat of honey, not knowing what will happen in the future, but hopeful that they will live on. All these delicious little sentences. And the world-building! So much in one story. Perfect.

If I knew more about Chinese history, I think this would pack a huge punch. As it is, I think this gets my vote.

And come on. Wasps on a paper boat piping sea chanties. Like pirates. PIRATE WASPS.  (Mind blows again)

[Scattercat]

Oh, and Nathan, I liked the little "transmission" joke at the end...

Thanks!  I try to make them entertaining.  I have to battle between my impulse to make jokes, my fear of stepping on Norm's gig, and the fact that those segments are supposed to be about the readers in the forums and not about Nathan's nonsense.

(Guess who's behind on the feedback segments?)

[Devoted135]

Oh, and Nathan, I liked the little "transmission" joke at the end...

Thanks!  I try to make them entertaining.  I have to battle between my impulse to make jokes, my fear of stepping on Norm's gig, and the fact that those segments are supposed to be about the readers in the forums and not about Nathan's nonsense.

(Guess who's behind on the feedback segments?)

FWIW, I also think they're very entertaining

[Gamercow]

I'm torn about this story.  There's some great imagery, and the first half for me was REALLY strong, but the second half started to falter, and I think it unraveled quickly at the end.  Maybe I just wanted more, maybe I just didn't understand it.  Either way, it missed the mark for me.

[hardware]

I really liked this story, although it bordered on fairy tale land. The style of telling a story of collectives rather than individuals was very neat, and the mix of timescales between individual insects, hives and humans was used in a very effective way. Also, rarely do you stumble on such a happy union of lyrical language and political theory.