Author Topic: Serenity without Firefly  (Read 41529 times)

sirana

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Reply #100 on: August 10, 2007, 05:15:54 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with nearly everything Mr. Tweedy has said on this subject.
And I think it is already beginning.
For the more do-it-yourselfy aproach take Stranger Things (there's a discussion about it in this forum). Mostly just a guy with some good ideas, a couple of actors and a digital video camera. Yeah, it's not perfect and it's not weekly, but have patience. This is the podcasting of the future.

For the more capitalistic aproach take Sanctuary (which by the way I can fully  recommend) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_%28web_series%29  )
Yeah, it's not cheap (2 bucks per episode) and it's short (15 min episodes) but again, this is just the beginning.

Or in another direction entirely, take machinima. Doing videos with the engines of computer games. Red vs. Blue for example. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_vs_blue)

Now take this and multiply it by a thousand.
What do you really need to make a movie or a tv-show? Some actors, a director/cameraman, a digital video camera and a greenscreen. Everything else is secondary, sure it makes for a higher quality, but you don't really NEED it.
How many would-be actors, directors and screenwriters are out there who are feed up with getting the 30th rejection.

It won't happen in the next 5 years, but you can see it beginning right now.



sirana

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Reply #101 on: August 10, 2007, 05:35:14 PM
oh, and slightly more on topic.

Does anybody, especially the guys who work in tv, know how much it cost to produce the first season of firefly? I'd be interested in figures for other series, too, but Firefly would be a really nice to know.



ClintMemo

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Reply #102 on: August 10, 2007, 05:59:15 PM
IIRC, ST:TNG had a $1,000,000 per episode budget when it got to it's third or forth season.  They only raked in 600k in syndication fees but since each episode aired twice, they ended up making $200k per episode. But this was 1990(?), and that was an overall budget.  IIRC, the "Scotty" epsiode was the most expensive one hour drama TV episode ever (when it was made) with a $4m budget - and about $1m of that was the cost to recreate the original ST bridge set.

I'd guess Joss Whedon had no where near that much money for Firefly.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #103 on: August 10, 2007, 06:01:45 PM
oh, and slightly more on topic.

Does anybody, especially the guys who work in tv, know how much it cost to produce the first season of firefly? I'd be interested in figures for other series, too, but Firefly would be a really nice to know.

This guy, who seems to have a clue, puts the budget at about $1 million a show and Serenity at $40 million.  Serenity did about $39 million worldwide in theaters.  When you add all of the movie channels and DVDs, they probably made a bit.  Probably not enough for a sequel though.



ClintMemo

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Reply #104 on: August 10, 2007, 06:35:02 PM
Let's do some math with some numbers I've just made up:
If you wanted to make a show similar to Firefly, you would need a regular cast plus guests for each episode.  Let's say our ship has a crew of only six.  You probably need 3 guests, on average, for each show.  Assuming that the director operated the camera (and you only used one camera), that's a total 10 people per episode.  You would have to spend some money each episode for costumes, sets...let's say $1000/episode.
If each person were to make a decent living, say 50k/year, that's 500,000 in income, plus 26,000 to create each episode.
If you made 26 episodes per year, you would have to earn 526000/26 = $20,230 (approx) per episode.

20,000 subscribers each paying $1 per episode is what you would need to make this a viable business.

Life is a multiple choice test. Unfortunately, the answers are not provided.  You have to go and find them before picking the best one.


sirana

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Reply #105 on: August 10, 2007, 06:42:20 PM
this is deeply interesting.
so if Joss Whedon would be able to get 200.000 people (i'm pickin this number because thats how many firefly dvd-sets sold) to shell out 30 Bucks for a season of Joss' New TV Show (not Firefly, because the rights belong to the Evil Empire) he'd have 6 Million to work with, 500.000 per episode if he does a 12 episode season. Less what he had on Firefly but still enough to make a tv-series.
So the question remains: Could he get 200K people to buy a show in advance? Whats your opinion?



DKT

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Reply #106 on: August 10, 2007, 06:56:27 PM
I'd put the money in for another season of Firefly in a heartbeat. 

I'd also like to point out that ClintMemo's numbers only cover production costs.  They don't include pre-production or post-production. 


sirana

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Reply #107 on: August 10, 2007, 07:08:11 PM
These guys (http://aswarmofangels.com/) are trying something similar. Their aim is to raise 1 Million Dollar, by having 50.000 people contribute 25 British Pounds each. They currently have 1000 people suscribed, so there's still a long way ahead of them...



Chodon

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Reply #108 on: August 10, 2007, 07:34:30 PM
I would be real nervous about something like this.  You aren't putting in your money to get something, you're putting in your money for the HOPES of getting something.  I contributed to Fundable Films (which pretty much is exactly what you guys are talking about) after I heard about it on Spaceship Radio.  I  was supposed to get a t-shirt to advertise and a $50 stake in a film of my choice.  The months went by and nothing happened.  I contacted the people running it and was told my stuff would soon be on the way.  More time went by...nothing happened.  I contacted again, and it turned out I wasn't getting a shirt or a $50 stake in a film.  They offered to refund my money, but I like the idea so I told them to keep it.  I just don't plan on putting my money into something like this again until there's a final product I could buy.  I let my altruistic optimism get ahead of my skeptical capitalist side.
NOTE: I don't think fundable films is a scam and I still think it's a good idea, but if someone can get paid if they deliver or not where's the motivation?

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Russell Nash

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Reply #109 on: August 10, 2007, 07:55:18 PM
These guys (http://aswarmofangels.com/) are trying something similar. Their aim is to raise 1 Million Dollar, by having 50.000 people contribute 25 British Pounds each. They currently have 1000 people suscribed, so there's still a long way ahead of them...

25 pounds times 50,000 is closer to 2.5 million dollars.  If that was an example of their accounting I would be very skeptical. 

Indie film has been trying to get people to give money to their projects in this way ever since there's been an Indie film.  Most of the people who buy in get a stake in a staight to video slasher film that loses big.  The first thing the money raisers did was pay themselves their producer's fees.  The producers made money everybody else lost every penny. 

It's an old scam.  The same thing is often down in real estate.  Only someone with a track record would get my money, but there are already investment funds that invest in those guys.



Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #110 on: August 10, 2007, 08:04:07 PM
I checked out "a swarm of angels."  I don't think enough of their story pitch to be tempted to toss my dollars into their pot.  I wouldn't contribute to a story just for the sake of doing it.  The story would have to be something specifically wanted to see.

A project and artist need credibility before they can start collecting money.  For instance, Scott Sigler has earned cred with a lot of people.  (I, personally, didn't like "Ancestor" enough to even finish the whole thing, but that's totally beside the point.)  If Scott Sigler started asking for handouts for investment in a project and he had a good pitch, a lot of people would be like "Scott Sigler's making a movie?  Cool!  I'll support that."  He's earned enough cred with other things that people would hop on board.

Me?  Not so much.  If I put up a website saying "Contribute to my fund so I can make my serial," people would be like "Who's this fool?"  That's why I keep on (like the tortoise)  trying to get short stories published.  (Currently waiting to hear back from Strange Horizons.)  Maybe eventually I can work my way up to the point where people would take me seriously enough to see my ideas as worth investing in, but it certainly isn't going to happen this year or next.  And rightfully so.

I would want to invest in a specific script by a specific writer, not just a generic project, and that writer would need to prove him/herself by starting small.

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dj_mojo

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Reply #111 on: August 10, 2007, 10:29:38 PM
"A girl in a box"

Wow...with a trailer like that why was fox suprised it failed - I mean - who doesn't want a girl in a box.  Does it come with a crank?

I sort of avoided the show because I always thought it was stupid, then while bored I bought the used DVD set for $10.00 -

Wow - I was blown away!

REAL bummer that it ended so soon...



sirana

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Reply #112 on: August 11, 2007, 07:51:46 AM
25 pounds times 50,000 is closer to 2.5 million dollars.  If that was an example of their accounting I would be very skeptical. 

Indie film has been trying to get people to give money to their projects in this way ever since there's been an Indie film.  Most of the people who buy in get a stake in a staight to video slasher film that loses big.  The first thing the money raisers did was pay themselves their producer's fees.  The producers made money everybody else lost every penny.

It's an old scam.  The same thing is often down in real estate.  Only someone with a track record would get my money, but there are already investment funds that invest in those guys.

the "accounting error" was mine, not their's. they are trying to reach 1 million pound, not 1 million dollars.
And the guys that are doing this do have a track record. Matt Hanson, the director is the creator of onedotzero, Tommy Palotta produced "A scanner darkly", Grant Gee the DP did DP on "The Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy" and Cory Doctorow and Warren Ellis work are Advisor's to the venture.
This is not just some guy doing this in his basement.

 
I would be real nervous about something like this.  You aren't putting in your money to get something, you're putting in your money for the HOPES of getting something.  I contributed to Fundable Films (which pretty much is exactly what you guys are talking about) after I heard about it on Spaceship Radio.  I  was supposed to get a t-shirt to advertise and a $50 stake in a film of my choice.  The months went by and nothing happened.  I contacted the people running it and was told my stuff would soon be on the way.  More time went by...nothing happened.  I contacted again, and it turned out I wasn't getting a shirt or a $50 stake in a film.  They offered to refund my money, but I like the idea so I told them to keep it.  I just don't plan on putting my money into something like this again until there's a final product I could buy.  I let my altruistic optimism get ahead of my skeptical capitalist side.
NOTE: I don't think fundable films is a scam and I still think it's a good idea, but if someone can get paid if they deliver or not where's the motivation?

hehe, fundable films got my 50$, too.
I think what a project like A Swarm of Angels (or my proposed Joss' New TV-Show) would need would be a guaranty that there really is enough money to complete the show (ironically this is exactly what fundable films was trying to provide)

Let's say Joss said, that the minimal amount of money he has to take in through DVD-sets is 5 million dollar. He pitches the show to the web in the same way he would pitch it to studio execs and calls on all his fans to preorder the dvd-set.
He sets up a trusted account at a bank (or a trusted paypal account) and people shell out their 30 $ for the dvds.
If more than 5 million come in this way (i.e. if more than 170.000 people preorder the dvds) than the series can be made.
If the goal isn't reached in, let's say 6 months than the money get's automaticall transfered back to the customers.
no risk for the customers, no financial risk for the producer.




Mr. Tweedy

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Reply #113 on: August 13, 2007, 01:38:20 PM
Let's say Joss said, that the minimal amount of money he has to take in through DVD-sets is 5 million dollar. He pitches the show to the web in the same way he would pitch it to studio execs and calls on all his fans to preorder the dvd-set.
He sets up a trusted account at a bank (or a trusted paypal account) and people shell out their 30 $ for the dvds.
If more than 5 million come in this way (i.e. if more than 170.000 people preorder the dvds) than the series can be made.
If the goal isn't reached in, let's say 6 months than the money get's automaticall transfered back to the customers.
no risk for the customers, no financial risk for the producer.

That exactly the system I'd thought of in my daydreaming.  Seems sound.

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Russell Nash

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Reply #114 on: November 28, 2007, 07:33:43 PM
Whoo Hoo!  Finally got Firefly for an OK price off of Ebay.  It's 35€ ($48) here.

Now I have both Serenity and Firefly.  I watched Firefly months ago ::cough::bit torrent::cough:: and got Serenity shortly after that.  Since then I've been waiting so I could get a real set.

Now that I have them both I can force feed them to my wife.  I think she'll be into it after about 15 minutes.  She's a Joss Whedon fan.



Roney

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Reply #115 on: November 28, 2007, 08:22:30 PM
Now that I have them both I can force feed them to my wife.  I think she'll be into it after about 15 minutes.  She's a Joss Whedon fan.

Welcome on board, Browncoat.  Now you understand that we didn't mean to be pushy: we were simply... just.



Heradel

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Reply #116 on: November 28, 2007, 08:32:07 PM

I Twitter. I also occasionally blog on the Escape Pod blog, which if you're here you shouldn't have much trouble finding.


Planish

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Reply #117 on: December 14, 2007, 05:11:51 AM
I wonder what the budget is for a typical Dogme 95 production?

It can't be very much, but it should be possible to tell show a good story using similar criteria. Maybe not science fiction though.

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